Lacquer coating solution

miker57 · Post by **miker57** » 23 Feb 2009, 17:17

After reloading the brass a couple times, the lacquer starts to wear off and it causes feed problems in the PS90 mags and it becomes quite difficult to get a full 20 rds loaded in the pistol mags.

I found a 12oz spray can of Valspar fast-dry Lacquer, Hi-Gloss Clear #65064, at a local Lowes store for around $4. I tested it on a couple of reloaded rds, and it seems to work great! Once dry, you can't tell the reloads from the factory brass. One spray can appears to be enough to do a couple thousand rds. I plan to spray all my reloads once it warms up outdoors. You can't spray this stuff in house, it's very toxic and the fumes are not good for gas appliances, furnance, water heaters, etc.

I'm planning to make a spray rack out of peg-board, since the holes are just the right size to stick the rds in upside down.

Has anyone else tried any lacquer solutions?

Post by **jmz5** » 23 Feb 2009, 17:40

That pegboard rack is a good idea!

Post by **Cyberfly** » 23 Feb 2009, 17:47

I'm not knocking anybody's ideas, but I am curious of MO and panzer's take. I know they have conquered the lacquer coating problem, but theirs is a trade secret and commercial in nature.
However, for the backyard reloader, this Valspar idea, if it will work could greatly extend the life of brass that isn't hotloaded.

Post by **Grantness** » 02 Mar 2009, 09:47

This is an interesting idea. I have ALOT of 2-3x fired brass that I have put in my "D" (as in ABCD) bin and relegated to SHTF situations....just because the coating has worn down. Perhaps I could breath some new life into them :ponder: Maybe I'll do a little experiment w/ some different types of laquers/protectants and report back w/ pics... :ponder: Just as soon as some of this snow melts :laugh:

RadCat · Post by **RadCat** » 02 Mar 2009, 11:42

Grantness wrote:This is an interesting idea. I have ALOT of 2-3x fired brass that I have put in my "D" (as in ABCD) bin and relegated to SHTF situations....just because the coating has worn down. Perhaps I could breath some new life into them :ponder: Maybe I'll do a little experiment w/ some different types of laquers/protectants and report back w/ pics... :ponder: Just as soon as some of this snow melts :laugh:

What is this "thing" you call snow ?? Is it a white and fluffy stuff that falls from the sky so that some people can have an excuse not to go out and play ??? :laugh:

:ponder:

You can use clear engine hi-temp paint in a single coat, once you totally clean your brass. Maybe a light tumble in some "bead blast media" followed by some more tumbling in clean plain corn cob, and then using that "pegboard" method ???

Hell, don't you have a heated garage ???

The biggest problem I have found in multiple fired 5.7 X 28 brass is some small stress cracks that seem to go through in the re-shaped shoulder area.

Post by **Grantness** » 02 Mar 2009, 11:54

The white fluffy stuff that you mention is somewhat of a novelty to me still... I moved up to NC about a year ago and love it. I dont think the temp has hit 80 all year. Trust me, after spending a couple dozen summers in Florida, the snow is a welcome alternative.

Oh...and I cant just use my garage cause the roads have over a foot of snow on them and even my all-wheel drive SUV would prop get stuck on the way to the hardware store...

Why would I want to apply a coat and then tumble/clean it before applying again w/ the pegboard? Wouldnt all that tumbling just remove the coat? Im wondering if any of these various and sundry coating substances will apply evenly to the case so that you cannot distinguish between the original laquer and the parts where the new coating has filled in. Is this possible or would I have to find some way to remove the original laquer all together before applying the new coat?

stg2ahn · Post by **stg2ahn** » 02 Mar 2009, 11:58

I guess the next challenge would be to try and get an even coat and the right amount of coating. :ponder:

5Jeffro7 · Post by **5Jeffro7** » 02 Mar 2009, 12:03

Grantness wrote:
Why would I want to apply a coat and then tumble/clean it before applying again w/ the pegboard? Wouldnt all that tumbling just remove the coat? Im wondering if any of these various and sundry coating substances will apply evenly to the case so that you cannot distinguish between the original laquer and the parts where the new coating has filled in. Is this possible or would I have to find some way to remove the original laquer all together before applying the new coat?

quite simply, you wouldn't...I belive, if reading him correctly, that you'll want to thoroughly clean the OLD coating off through those various stpes & THEN re-apply the new stuff..at least that's my take on the situation

JEff

RadCat · Post by **RadCat** » 02 Mar 2009, 15:14

Quite so.

IMHO, if you are going to do something, might as well do it right, all the way.

Heck, I'd probably soak the cases in acetone, or some other solvent that would either dissolve the coating or soften/degrade it enough so that tumbling it a little bit on some bead blasting media would finish removing any remnants of ALL the previous coating, plus would provide a fresh slightly abraded surface. The clean corn cob would then remove any remnants of abrasive dust and give a good clean, uncontaminated surface. The cases thus prepared would be perfect to receive a coat to similar (hopefully) conditions and finish as a new one from the factory. While over-building on the coating over the old coating may not be an issue, it could add to "scraping" when re-sizing them again. There is also the possibility of material compatibility when you spray over the old coating. Sometimes the new coating will not adhere to the old one, or it may creep inside it, causing it to peel off or "crinkle". So to me it makes sense and less trouble to just get rid of it easily enough, and start fresh. Less work, better finished product.

Of course how many times you may be able to do this ?? Not that many as probably the cases will separate the shoulder soon enough. :furious: :wall:

But the prospect of "real" fresh new virgin brass, is even more appealing.

Post by **panzermk2** » 02 Mar 2009, 16:01

acetone and acetate will not remove the coating.

Post by **jmz5** » 02 Mar 2009, 17:11

Zip strip.

Post by **panzermk2** » 02 Mar 2009, 19:56

Actually organic acid.

Post by **Grantness** » 02 Mar 2009, 21:19

How bout soaking them in coke? The citric acid will probably do the job, no?

DarkWater · Post by **DarkWater** » 03 Mar 2009, 08:32

windex...works on everything :p

Post by **Grantness** » 03 Mar 2009, 10:26

Actually, I KNOW that leaving your brass in Simple Green for too long (read: >1-2hours) will definately take off the laquer coating. The problem is, the brass itself will start to turn a dark shade of purple almost black....especially starting around the neck, which concerns me.

Post by **panzermk2** » 03 Mar 2009, 21:03

Organic acid works great. You do have to leave the jar in a snow bank so it does not over heat. Ice bath would work for you southern guys.

tejohnson · Post by **tejohnson** » 03 Mar 2009, 21:37

Is peracetic acid a bad idea? I use this to clean my suppressor baffles, and it is very effective.

Hoover 1 · Post by **Hoover 1** » 04 Mar 2009, 03:41

Grantness wrote:Actually, I KNOW that leaving your brass in Simple Green for too long (read: >1-2hours) will definately take off the laquer coating. The problem is, the brass itself will start to turn a dark shade of purple almost black....especially starting around the neck, which concerns me.

I did not know that. :ponder:

Thanks for the info! :thumb:

Hoover

Llagoud · Post by **Llagoud** » 04 Mar 2009, 04:04

Is there any concern of acid-immersion/heat induced hydrogen embrittlement?

Post by **panzermk2** » 04 Mar 2009, 21:55

Thats why you have an ICE bath.

Steve I don't know if that one would work. I will have to post the exact type when I get home and check the bottle. I 3 or 4 types of Organic acids around the house.

tejohnson · Post by **tejohnson** » 08 Mar 2009, 09:22

Peracetic acid appears to be ineffective. It seems that it would just take too long, or would be way more trouble than what it is worth.

I tried a few cases when I was cleaning my suppressor baffles, and while it breaks down the soot and lead like there is no to tomorrow, it only began to erode the lacquer coating on a few cases near the mouth and neck of a few pieces of brass.

Post by **panzermk2** » 08 Mar 2009, 17:22

Crap forgot to look today.

tejohnson · Post by **tejohnson** » 20 Mar 2009, 15:05

Working on resizing my twice fired right now. Going to clean, trim, and inspect. I plan to be removing the lacquer and giving what was in the first post a try.

What I am curious about is when applying the lacquer, would it be better to have it primed already, or if not, should the primer pockets be masked?

RadCat · Post by **RadCat** » 20 Mar 2009, 22:13

tejohnson wrote:Working on resizing my twice fired right now. Going to clean, trim, and inspect. I plan to be removing the lacquer and giving what was in the first post a try.

What I am curious about is when applying the lacquer, would it be better to have it primed already, or if not, should the primer pockets be masked?

I would prime it first, then coat it. It will seal/waterproof the primer in place. A good thing.

tejohnson · Post by **tejohnson** » 21 Mar 2009, 07:27

That's what I was thinking...

miker57 · Post by **miker57** » 22 Mar 2009, 06:03

The primary benefit of the laquer coating is to make the rounds slippery, and prevent mag feed problems. Anyone know of any other reasons? In my limited testing, I believe touching up the existing lacquer is all that is necessary to restore the slippery surface.

It shouldn't be a problem applying the laquer to a primed case or as the last step in the reloading process.

tejohnson · Post by **tejohnson** » 22 Mar 2009, 06:48

I was wondering if you have actually done it yet :p

I should have about 600 pieces of twice fired ready to load after weeding out the bad and trimming. I also plan to tumble in Lyman tumbling media to get rid of any coating that has started to slightly "bubble" or lift from the case.

I played with a little bit of paint stripper, and that produces some down right nasty fumes. I believe I'll be avoiding that in the future, although I still may try epoxy paint remover at some point on a few test cases. It contains methylene chloride, which from what I have read, is some rather caustic stuff...

miker57 · Post by **miker57** » 22 Mar 2009, 07:08

The weather in MN is still too cold to spray lacquer in my unheated garage. We touched 60 degrees once but we'll only see 50's for the next week or so. In my test I sprayed a couple pieces of brass in the house, but it is really toxic and I don't recommend it.

The Lacquer application instructions says to spray outdoors in temp range of 65-90 degrees.

Here's a link to the product I am using.

http://www.valsparspray.com/Product/pco ... oduct---GO" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tejohnson · Post by **tejohnson** » 22 Mar 2009, 07:20

Yep, I bought the same stuff.

bobapunk · Post by **bobapunk** » 22 Mar 2009, 07:36

Can you spray the cartridge after it is reloaded? That way you are sealing the primer and the bullet.

?

miker57 · Post by **miker57** » 22 Mar 2009, 10:28

I have a couple thousand rounds already reloaded that I plan to spray. I am going to use pegboard for a spraying rack. A 2'x4' sheet of pegboard has 1152 holes (24x48). The case neck and bullet fit securely in the pegboard holes, so that part won't be exposed to the lacquer using this spraying approach. I am only looking to solve the case feed problems with reloaded ammo. The primers will be sealed. I crimp all my reloads so I am not concered about sealing the bullets.

tejohnson · Post by **tejohnson** » 22 Mar 2009, 11:09

I'm pretty much in the same boat. The only thing I plan to use the twice fired for is subsonics, all of which have a minor crimp.

starfury · Post by **starfury** » 22 Mar 2009, 15:31

miker57 - let us know how it goes when you test them out and if you have any failures to feed. I am eager to hear if it works! BTW: what loads are you testing it out on???

Post by **panzermk2** » 22 Mar 2009, 16:40

FYI without the coating you will have FTE's.

tejohnson · Post by **tejohnson** » 29 Mar 2009, 10:12

So far I am not liking the Valspar Lacquer. However, I have only given it 24 hours to dry.

The smell is pretty bad when firing. After a few shots, the coating appears to heat up and turns sticky. This has resulted in a few pieces of brass sticking in the barrel, and the extractor has no ability to pull it out.

I also likely put way too much on. (I always have a bad habit of overcoating with spray paint).

I also had one failure to chamber due to the heating issue, and over coating. I could not even manually eject the round, requiring me to disassemble the rifle and use my reloading press and a crowbar to remove the round.

To make matters worse for me, I was targeting this for my subsonic reloads with twice fired brass. I resized and:

-cleaned (simple green and water)
-trimmed
-tumbled (200 pieces for 4 hours in Lyman media), which ~75% of the original coating remained
-cleaned (simple green and water)
-Air dried

Loaded with 2.7gn Power Pistol and OAL was 1.592-1.594. With the over spraying I did, this extended the OAL to 1.596-1.598 in some cases.

All in all, I have spent a considerable amount of time on this... If you proceed, perhaps you should ensure a light coating with a minimum of 48 hours of drying time.

On a positive note, it does load and eject from the PS-90 magazine very well. Personally, I would like to find a harder coating that reacts less to heat.

[I will put some high resolution pictures soon to assist with what I describe above.]

tejohnson · Post by **tejohnson** » 29 Mar 2009, 11:51

Life-cycle conveyed right to left.

Processed & Primed

Loaded & Coated

Loaded & Coated (bottom - Still hard to see the excess)

Fired. Notice the flaking and burring of the coating due to heat. The two with projectiles failed to fully chamber from getting sticky.

tejohnson · Post by **tejohnson** » 29 Mar 2009, 11:57

Any thoughts or opinion on Water Based Incralac?

starfury · Post by **starfury** » 29 Mar 2009, 14:37

thanks for the update - I have been looking around for a spray polymer rather then a lacquer but haven't had much luck finding one that doesn't require a hot torch to apply. A polymer base coating would have less senstivity to heat (up into the 200+C range) and be more durable... I wonder what the case temperature is right after ejection (I will take a thermocouple reader with me next time to the range and see if I can get a value)

miker57 · Post by **miker57** » 29 Mar 2009, 17:50

I think you have to apply a very light coating and let it dry for at least 48 hours as your findings suggest. It does look as though heat is going to be problem with this product. I was expecting it to be more heat resistant. I will try some heat tests on the brass I treated and see how it reacts. Thanks for the report.

tejohnson · Post by **tejohnson** » 29 Mar 2009, 18:03

Additionally, I may purchase some Water Based Incralac at some point to do testing. Bad thing is, I don't believe you can buy it in a spray can, so I will need a paint sprayer as well.

Ratpick · Post by **Ratpick** » 31 Mar 2009, 11:01

I have been working on this quite a bit, and found a lacquer called "permalac". It is an outdoor coating for metals, etc. with great wear and temperature resistance. Has anyone tried this?

Just google "permalac" for more information.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

starfury · Post by **starfury** » 31 Mar 2009, 19:28

It looks interesting and might work; however, I question their temperature data (under the technical data tab). 2500F will melt steel and 3500F is into the refractory metal range (they must have slipped a 0 in there by mistake).

I think this stuff might be worth a try!

tejohnson · Post by **tejohnson** » 31 Mar 2009, 20:41

I purchased a pint of the water based Incralac, but it may be a few before it arrives...

romer522 · Post by **romer522** » 31 Mar 2009, 20:47

Just my .02 on this topic. The actual temperature of the barrel or brass during extraction won't be TOO high, but the surface temp of the laquer touching the chamber during extraction is going to be astronomical during extraction. Its kind of an all or nothing thing from what i can see, either you get it slick enough that you extract without too much friction, of if you get just barely enough friction to break down very outside of the coating its going to be a downward spiral.

If i were going to coat my brass i would probably bake it after its been coated in an oven for a few hours to make sure its totally cured and as hard/slick as its gonna get.

Post by **Grantness** » 01 Apr 2009, 11:21

wouldnt baking the brass make it more brittle, or are the temperatures you're talking about not hot enough to be any danger?

miker57 · Post by **miker57** » 05 Apr 2009, 10:11

I did some heat tests comparing pulled factory unfired brass and brass coated with valspar lacquer and another product for comparison. I only applied a very light coating of lacquer and allowed it to dry for more than 24 hours.

This test method isn't exactly scientific, but gives a general idea of the heat tolerance of the lacquer. Using a propane torch, I first heated a piece of factory brass to the point the lacquer started to bubble and burn (case was nearly red hot before it started to bubble and burn). I then performed the same test on a piece of brass coated with valspar and another product and the results were nearly identical. It took about 8-10 seconds of direct heat from the torch before the lacquer started to bubble and then smoke and burn. I then attempted the same test, only heating it until the point that the lacquer began to get soft and sticky, hot enough that you could still briefly touch the brass to feel stickyness without burning your fingers. It took about 4-5 seconds of direct heat to get sticky in each of the samples tested. It appears to me that the valspar product, when used in moderation and with proper drying time, has similar heat properties as the factory lacquer.

I also looked at the effect of the lacquer coating on the case diameter. I started with brass resized using a redding and a hornady sizing die, both dies resulted in a case diameter of .3135 after resizing. Factory brass has a diameter of .3105 including the factory lacquer, so after the brass is resized, the case is already .003 greater than the factory brass. Once a very light coating of lacquer is applied, the case diameter was up to .3145, a difference of .004 from the factory unfired brass. Based on this, I think it may be best to resize the brass again, after applying the lacquer coating and allowing it to dry 24 hours. This will return the reloadable brass case diameter to .3135.

I would also recommend applying some dry lube to the chamber, like Militec1, before firing re-lacquered brass to keep the chamber clean and prevent any sticking. Militec1 is especially good for preventing carbon bonding and build up and makes cleaning the chamber of any gun much easier.

tejohnson · Post by **tejohnson** » 05 Apr 2009, 10:58

The cases that I coated with valspar still smell after a week. This appears to be one of those lacquers that never fully cure.

I am giving something else a test today. I had some water based Incralac arrive yesterday. I'm going to apply a light coat on about 40 rounds that I am loading up now. Will not be firing them for about another 24 - 48 hours depending on the time it takes to cure.

Ratpick · Post by **Ratpick** » 05 Apr 2009, 20:42

I am really interested to see if that incralac works, I have been looking into ordering some Permalac.

I have been working on cleaning factory brass. I have found that simple vinegar (5% acetic acid) will take the coating off (mostly) with a 24 hour soak and frequent shaking.

I found some 20% acetic acid at a chemical supply store, will try that and advise results.

I think once a good lacquer is found, a process can be developed to fire twice / clean / recoat / etc.

Tough little case to work with, but appears worth it and quite possible to figure out. Thanks to all here for the good advice.

Riba · Post by **Riba** » 06 Apr 2009, 01:05

Re:Lacquer coating solution
I may be wrong, but my feeling is that the lacquer is there to protect case content from moisture, making it more reliable (which is especially important for military ammo). Herei is why: when hurricane Ike visited Texas coast, my home was flooded. Everything what was near the floor ended up under water. Among other things hunting rifle ammo (factory and reloads) and a few boxes of 5.7x28. After things settled down and upon inspection, found out that water penetrated everywhere except inside 5.7x28, which was fully operational. Then, I started to think how to salvage some brass (hard to find wildcat cases). A friend of mine has aluminum boat and he uses Aluminum Brightner to restore discolored aluminum. I tried some and it worked wonders on coroded brass. I bought a gallon/15$ of the stuff at local boaters supply store and dumped brass (among other things, some 5.7x28 cases) in the bath for couple of hours, then into tumbler. To my surprise lacquer peeled off of the cases like snake's skin leaving me nice shiny and polished 5.7x28 brass. I use this brass in TC Contender single shot pistol, but for you guys with semi-autos it would cost nothing to try some reloads without varnish. I personaly think that clean, polished brass is slicker than varnish and does not clog my reloading dies

Post by **f3rr37** » 06 Apr 2009, 07:37

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but it didn't penetrate into the 5.7x28 ammo because the bullets are glued in and the primers are sealed. Has nothing to do with the lacquer coating on the brass.

Post by **jmz5** » 06 Apr 2009, 07:51

Yeah, the bullets are glued in. The lacquer is to prevent galling in the PS90/P90 magazine and aides in extraction.

poorfolks · Post by **poorfolks** » 23 May 2009, 17:03

has anyone had problems with bare brass reloads out of the five seven pistol only? is this process necessary for use out of the pistol? thanks.

Polar Express · Post by **Polar Express** » 21 Jun 2009, 13:54

Hello, I'm new to your forum, thanks for allowing me to join, and for the work you put into keeping it going.

I don't own a 5.7 pistol yet, but I am quite interested, and I'm trying to learn as much as I can before deciding if I want to take the plunge. My first questions are about reloading to feed it.

After reading all 3 pages of this thread, i'm still at a loss as to why the brass must be laquer coated. And, with the laquer coating, do you still need to lube the cases when resizing? I'm also new to reloading, but not to machining and manufacturing processes.

If the coating is supposed to make the rounds 'slicker' to feed and eject, what about the design of the firearm/magazine require the rounds to be more slick than plain old clean brass?

thanks for the forum, and allowing me to join,
PE

fatherfoof · Post by **fatherfoof** » 22 Jun 2009, 01:07

Complicated issue yet to be peer review tested and published, The obvious default postition is to follow what MO says. He's done virtually all that can be done to this cartridge and has proven his honesty with no embellishment. Now, while I am most certain I can - in the more important issues- drink him under the table, I'll defer to his judgement on the 5-7.

:lmao: :lmao:

fatherfoof · Post by **fatherfoof** » 22 Jun 2009, 01:10

PE, welcome to the forum. We're a happy=go-lucky group whom you'll enjoy and we're glad to have you join us. ff

starfury · Post by **starfury** » 22 Jun 2009, 18:43

This is out of the blue but has anyone consider a dry polymer/teflon powder (I have seen it very very fine like talcom) for the cases? I only have a PS90 and the jams I tend to get are always in the magazine just a cartridge past where they start the turn. The cases have most of the lacqure on them and only lose it in a small spot or two (so it is fine in the chamber and extraction) it only seems to hangs in the mag (you can almost tell as you feed them into the mag). It just needs a little less friction - not much.

My bet is the pistol is more tolerant to lacqure loss since it double stacks them more like a nomal mag.

1moreaug · Post by **1moreaug** » 26 Jun 2009, 20:00

Has anyone tried Eezox? It is a cleaner/lube that is synthetic and becomes pretty dry in a few hours but remains slick as snot. I wipe all my gun internals down with it and can almost just wipe off the carbon fouling with a rag after shooting. It sticks to the bolt in my M10 and after 500 rounds in full auto I can spray it with a water hose and it looks as clean as new. Works for the suppressor too. I am loading a few rounds tonight for a subsonic test tomorrow. I will wipe them down with the Eezox and see what happens.

romer522 · Post by **romer522** » 26 Jun 2009, 20:22

More than likely it will get the brass stuck in the chamber, or at least very very poor extraction.

ynoty3k · Post by **ynoty3k** » 26 Jun 2009, 22:01

While I don't reload and was only relatively interested in the topic, as soon as I read about heating issues on the lacquer, I instantly thought of High Temp enamel clear coat.

All of my friends use it on their cars and other parts that get ridiculously hot from exhaust, and I know one of them touched up some rust on a barbeque grill,

Some one who is willing to try, might want to consider

http://www.caswellplating.com/vht/vhtclear.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Very High Temp clear coat. I would guess that this is a lacquer, and may provide a good solution.

It says the heat of the engine will cure, so maybe a slow bake at 200* F in an oven after application would be called for, maybe even higher.

--- EDIT--- just read the product site, you can cure it in an oven or with infrared lamps, but the oven should be "dedicated" I take that to mean not for use in food preparation----

Heat curing method for maximum resistance to solvents, salt spray, humidity, thermal shock and heat:

In a dedicated electric oven:

* 15 minutes at 250°F
* 30 minutes at 600°F
* 1 hour at 800°F
* 30 minutes at 1,000°F.

You may also use an infrared curing lamp.

---End Edit---

I would suppose that one should not therefore have the cases primed before putting them into the oven, but I really wouldn't know.

tejohnson · Post by **tejohnson** » 26 Jun 2009, 22:18

I used a grill before to cure high temp coatings for a turbo...

I need to get back to the increlac. It simply needs to be watered down (thinning), and I need to realize the exact mix. It cures quite hard.

starfury · Post by **starfury** » 27 Jun 2009, 06:28

1moreaug - definately let us know what happens. I use EEZOX as well for several rifles and love it... just never considered it for this application. It does dry completely to a film pretty quick so it might work.

I was also thinking about some of those polymer auto paint protectors you see in the store that wipe on and leave a smooth dry film... The original (but somewhat damaged) lacquer is still on the casing so it should still eject fine - the thin film would just allow it to more freely roll through the magazine.

1moreaug · Post by **1moreaug** » 30 Jun 2009, 20:57

I took a chance and tried something with one of my mags that was giving me trouble. I took it completely apart and sprayed it off, inside and out, with denatured alcohol to clean it up. Then I took Eezox and wiped it on the follower and the pins inside. then I coated the feed lips and poured some inside and coated everything inside. Took the compressor and blew everything dry and let it sit overnight. I put it back together and took it out this morning and it worked perfectly. I haven't got to the brass coating yet because my brass still has 90% of the lacquer on them and I'm not ready to try stripping them before I have to.

starfury · Post by **starfury** » 05 Jul 2009, 11:43

I went out yesterday (with my PS90) and tried some rounds that had a very light dry EEZOX layer and found that romer522 is absolutely correct - poor extraction for those rounds. I didn't put on much, just wiped the rounds on a rag that had some EEZOX on it (and let it dry for 24hrs). It made them much smoother and they loaded nicely in the magazine; however it was a 50/50 chance that they wouldn't extract all the way (nothing got stuck, just had to manually cycle again). This was the 7th reload on this brass (using 6.5gr TrueBlue pushing the little Hornady 30gr V-max’s).

So the search is still on for the elusive coating to repair the damaged lacquer!

mickey223 · Post by **mickey223** » 05 Jul 2009, 12:12

I've thought of using incralac, but haven't done a lot of 5.7 reloading as most of my stuff has come from Ryan.

http://talasonline.com/photos/instructi ... _sheet.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

starfury · Post by **starfury** » 15 Dec 2009, 18:55

Something occured to me today when I was shooting the PS90. Most of the hang up issues I have noted (even after having reloaded up to 6 or 7 times) are due to feeding from the magazine (ie a round doesn't want to roll) and not ejection from the action. Even with pretty chewed up coating they cycle fine on extraction. Since the issue is rolling in the magazine I wonder if sprinking some dry lubericant such as graphite (or maybe PTFE powder) in the magazine would solve the problem (it shouldn't affect the cycling in the action) - this is what they do on those wopper Beta-Mags for the AR's....

Has anyone tried this - I might have to get a tube of graphite...

Also I noted that 30 round mags are a little more forgiving since they have the same spring as a 50 rd mag but it is preloaded by the block which gives more starting force.

Toynut · Post by **Toynut** » 15 Dec 2009, 19:30

What about trying some powdered mica first? It's almost as slippery and it won't stain your hands, clothes, (and everything else) black.

gw45acp · Post by **gw45acp** » 15 Dec 2009, 19:53

Some have used a PTFE-based dry lube and claimed that it helped. My results were mixed using dry lube on the rounds or in the PS90 mags.

tdevince · Post by **tdevince** » 15 Dec 2009, 20:05

I noticed that after resizing the brass has a slightly larger diameter than does factory ammo. Even when loaded with brass that has no damage to the coating I get hang ups on resized brass. I wonder if the slightly larger brass diameter might have more to do with magazine feed issues on the PS90 than does the coating. I thought about having a die custom made so that I get identical diameters as factory brass, but so far have not pursued that issue. I've tried Hornady and Lee dies with the same results.

Toynut · Post by **Toynut** » 16 Dec 2009, 04:25

Is it a uniform increase in diameter throughout the case body? If so, by how much?
There is always some case spring back after sizing. Generally, +1-3 thousand is the norm. It is also (remotely) possible that the cases are bulged a tiny bit during your crimp operation. That should not add to any even overall growth in the dimension throughout the entire case length, but instead, create a bulge at a specific area on the case.

tdevince · Post by **tdevince** » 16 Dec 2009, 05:11

Toynut wrote:Is it a uniform increase in diameter throughout the case body? If so, by how much?
There is always some case spring back after sizing. Generally, +1-3 thousand is the norm. It is also (remotely) possible that the cases are bulged a tiny bit during your crimp operation. That should not add to any even overall growth in the dimension throughout the entire case length, but instead, create a bulge at a specific area on the case.

1. Yes its a uniform increase (no bulges) on the body.
2. Its only a few thousands more than factory ammo (don't remember exactly how much). I'm aware there is spring back, that's why I would want a custom die so that the finished product (after spring back) has the same diameter as the factory. The difference in diameter is enough that when I pull down and reload factory ammo (never fired brass), I'm able to neck size factory brass using the full length dies with the case fully inserted into the die. When I reload factory brass (never fired) I of course have no feed issues with the PS90 mags. I have no problem chambering rounds in either the pistol or rifle using resized brass, its just the mag feed issue with the PS90.
3. No bulge from crimping since I don't crimp.

The ammo works fine in the FsN, but when troubleshooting why I have a feed issues with reloaded brass in the PS90 mags this was one of the issues I found. I don't know if its indeed the cause without eliminating it as a possibility.

gw45acp · Post by **gw45acp** » 16 Dec 2009, 07:50

This is something that had crossed my mind and I considered having a custom size die made similar to the EGW U die. The other option was to have a body die that would properly size the case after using the full length size die. Even a through die like a Lee bullet sizing die could be used to ensure the full length, including the case head is properly sized. Doing it this way could overwork the brass and reduce case life, but reliability was my main concern.

While I believe the dimensions may contribute to the the feed problems with the PS90, I think it still has more to do with the lubricating quality of the lacquer and how hot the loads are. After loading up rounds, I compared their feel and "slickness" to factory rounds and notice a significant difference between the Simple Green cleaned handloads vs. the factory loaded cases. The factory rounds feel noticeably more slick and I have very very few feed problems with them. That combined with dimensions and load recipe could be a cumulative problem that causes feeding issues.

LK45s · Post by **LK45s** » 16 Dec 2009, 08:07

Do you think reducing the die diameter would cause more damage to the lacquer?

gw45acp · Post by **gw45acp** » 16 Dec 2009, 08:19

LK45s wrote:Do you think reducing the die diameter would cause more damage to the lacquer?

The increased friction could definitely do more damage to the lacquer, especially if two steps are involved, both contacting the lacquered surface.

tdevince · Post by **tdevince** » 16 Dec 2009, 13:34

gw45acp wrote:...While I believe the dimensions may contribute to the the feed problems with the PS90, I think it still has more to do with the lubricating quality of the lacquer and how hot the loads are. After loading up rounds, I compared their feel and "slickness" to factory rounds and notice a significant difference between the Simple Green cleaned handloads vs. the factory loaded cases. The factory rounds feel noticeably more slick and I have very very few feed problems with them. That combined with dimensions and load recipe could be a cumulative problem that causes feeding issues.

Interesting, I haven't checked the difference in lubricity between fired brass, cleaned brass and factory brass. Don't know if there is a different solution that preserves the quality of the brass better than Simple Green.

gw45acp · Post by **gw45acp** » 16 Dec 2009, 13:50

I don't think it is the Simple Green that causes this. I think it is the expansion of the case after firing that may increase the grain or microscopic pitting and cracking of the lacquer. This is just supposition since I have no evidence to support this conclusion.

gw45acp · Post by **gw45acp** » 16 Dec 2009, 22:29

Tdevince got me thinking about the sized case dimensions. I did some comparisons on three unfired SS197SR cases vs. three 2x sized cases. I compared the measurements on three 2x fired sized cases to three factory SS197SR cases at the body below the shoulder, midpoint and at the bottom above the extractor rebate.

Shoulder
2x = .3102 - .3103
Unfired SS197SR = .3104 - .3116
Difference: 2x under-sized .0002 - .0014 (max)

Midpoint
2x = .3118 - .3124
Unfired SS197SR = .3108 - .3118
Difference: 2x over-sized .0010 to .0016 (max)

Webbing above extractor rebate
2x = .3133 - .3140
Unfired SS197SR = .3113 - .3116
Difference: 2x over-sized .0020 -.0027 (max)

I was surprised to see the 2x cases had a smaller dimension and closer tolerance at the shoulder compared to factory rounds. This dimensions will likely increase slightly when a bullet is seated. Between expansion from firing and the stresses from sizing, these seem to be reasonable dimensions and tolerances and they chamber well in both the FsN and the PS90. I think tdevince in on to something though. If you have as much as .0027 larger diameter near the extractor rebate, that could affect the way the cases roll in a PS90 magazine.

I also took some macro pictures of 2x and unfired cases. Sorry they aren't perfectly clear, but it was the best I could do with a point and shoot camera. The fired cases definitely have a rougher texture so I can understand why they may not feel as slick as the unfired factory cases, even though most of the lacquer coating is intact.

Between handloaded case dimensions and the condition of the case surface and coating, this could have a lot to do with the feeding problems in the PS90.

Left: 2x sized case. Right: Unfired SS197SR. Both are stamped 07. Notice the pitting or denting on the 2x vs. the unfired case. Some of that likely occurred during the sizing process.

Top: 2x sized case. Bottom: Unfired SS197SR. It's hard to see, but notice the pits and scratches in the 2x case.

Same, but from the case head view.

Left: Unfired SS197SR. Right: 2x sized case. Notice the rough surface in the highlights on the 2x. This appears to be the brass that is rough more than the lacquer coating.

tdevince · Post by **tdevince** » 17 Dec 2009, 05:20

So we have two potential issues here.

1. Condition of the coating after firing
2. Case size after resizing.

A custom die could eliminate item 2, but its unknown if that would be sufficient to restore feed reliability to the PS90 mag by itself. To fix item 1 would require some sort of additional lubricant (possibly messy) or some means to "repair" the rougher coating. Maybe I'll go ahead and investigate the custom die. I think Lee wants a 6 month wait for a custom die.

ddouglas · Post by **ddouglas** » 17 Dec 2009, 09:04

To address issue #1 above, has anyone tried those teflon spray lubricants on the cases after they are reloaded? Typically, the liquid evaporates, leaving a thin, dry and slick coating on the surfaces spayed.

Post by **f3rr37** » 17 Dec 2009, 10:19

issue #1, does the condition of the lacquer depend on the condition of the chamber (lapped vs unlapped).

tdevince · Post by **tdevince** » 17 Dec 2009, 10:22

Good question, my FsN is lapped. I look this weekend at the cases from it to compare with factory. Similar to what gw45acp posted.

gw45acp · Post by **gw45acp** » 17 Dec 2009, 10:34

ddouglas wrote:To address issue #1 above, has anyone tried those teflon spray lubricants on the cases after they are reloaded? Typically, the liquid evaporates, leaving a thin, dry and slick coating on the surfaces spayed.

It is mentioned in this thread that some have tried it with mixed results. The best report I recall was it helped a little. I didn't see any real improvement, but I don't have feeding problems as much as FTE's related to "warmer" loads which my PS90 doesn't really like.

gw45acp · Post by **gw45acp** » 17 Dec 2009, 10:40

tdevince wrote:Good question, my FsN is lapped. I look this weekend at the cases from it to compare with factory. Similar to what gw45acp posted.

Neither my FsN nor PS90 has a lapped chamber. I can only guess if that makes any difference.

Post by **panzermk2** » 17 Dec 2009, 10:45

f3rr37 wrote:issue #1, does the condition of the lacquer depend on the condition of the chamber (lapped vs unlapped).

It does, that is why as part of our package we polished the chamber on the FsN.

gw45acp · Post by **gw45acp** » 17 Dec 2009, 11:36

panzermk2 wrote:
f3rr37 wrote:issue #1, does the condition of the lacquer depend on the condition of the chamber (lapped vs unlapped).

It does, that is why as part of our package we polished the chamber on the FsN.

I understood that the primary reason for lapping the chamber was to aid in the extraction of high pressure rounds. I assume reducing wear on the lacquer coating was a byproduct and added benefit of a finely lapped chamber and not the primary issue?

Post by **panzermk2** » 26 Dec 2009, 12:11

Protecting the coating was the primary reason.

sharky47 · Post by **sharky47** » 27 Dec 2009, 15:38

Would you mind sharing any info on the chamber lapping process? If it's a trade secret, I understand and won't fault you for not sharing.

I have an AR57 inbound and would like to do anything that will help my brass last. I am a machinist and avid reloader, if I can lap my own chamber - I will.

Post by **panzermk2** » 27 Dec 2009, 17:47

You polish the metal with polishing compound from Brownells and a polishing wheel.

I8asquirrel · Post by **I8asquirrel** » 08 Jan 2010, 22:54

:ponder: Please Help am confused, do I want to remove the lacquer coating or not, I thought it only was there to help prevent corrosion while ammo was being shipped, cant I just tumble cases in jet shell and turbo to remove it.....sorry if this is new guy ? please advise.

sharky47 · Post by **sharky47** » 08 Jan 2010, 23:00

You want the lacquer if you want to be able to use the ammo in a P-90 style mag.

Post by **Rapier1772** » 08 Jan 2010, 23:06

I8asquirrel wrote::ponder: Please Help am confused, do I want to remove the lacquer coating or not, I thought it only was there to help prevent corrosion while ammo was being shipped, cant I just tumble cases in jet shell and turbo to remove it.....sorry if this is new guy ? please advise.

Do not tumble your 5.7 brass. The coating helps for casing lubrication when going thru the mag but also aids in extraction from the chamber. It will fire without the coating but it just makes it easier & the less damage to your brass the better.

Clean your cases with simple green solution or dish soap & vinegar - just do a search & you'll find some ideas on how others handle it

carsfor · Post by **carsfor** » 10 Jan 2010, 11:34

the suggestion I received is to use a liquid media tumbler to preserve the coating on the case, and that it is not a good idea to use dry !!media!! when cleaning your brass because of the loss of the coating! already on them, I don't know if the new brass is already coated, but if so the cleaning with liquid media is the so-called right way to go. carsfor

I8asquirrel · Post by **I8asquirrel** » 14 Jan 2010, 21:57

well lacquer coating and UV inspection might be for some shooters, but not for me, I contacted RCBS tech advice and at their suggestion put my brass in the vibrating tumbler with walnut shell media. it has taken four days of run time but the laqcuer has been removed and the brass is bright , shiny, and very slippery :p

Post by **f3rr37** » 14 Jan 2010, 22:04

Good luck, that brass is going to stick together when you put it in PS90 mags and also going to cause more stress on the brass during extration.

I8asquirrel · Post by **I8asquirrel** » 14 Jan 2010, 22:19

are you saying that from real experience or what people her ehave said.?

Post by **panzermk2** » 14 Jan 2010, 22:25

That is exactly what is going to happen and I have loaded more 5.7 then anyone and more then every member of this entire forum combined.

Jake knows what he is talking about and so do a great many folkes here. The sooner you realize this the better your re-loading is going to go.

Post by **Rapier1772** » 14 Jan 2010, 22:32

I8asquirrel wrote:well lacquer coating and UV inspection might be for some shooters, but not for me, I contacted RCBS tech advice and at their suggestion put my brass in the vibrating tumbler with walnut shell media. it has taken four days of run time but the laqcuer has been removed and the brass is bright , shiny, and very slippery :p

You came here looking for advice, it was freely given. Instead of listening to the people who actively reload this caliber, even manufacture it, you still do it your own way. Why bother asking here? And what makes you trust a tech over the data that is available here?
Enjoy your malfunctions

PainKillaX · Post by **PainKillaX** » 14 Jan 2010, 22:38

How will lacquer-less brass operate in the pistol?

Post by **panzermk2** » 14 Jan 2010, 22:58

Extraction issues. More then likely rip a case neck off with the first magazine ran through.

PainKillaX · Post by **PainKillaX** » 14 Jan 2010, 23:11

Sounds like a PITA. Thanks for the quick response. I never intended to tumble my 5.7 brass anyway, but I like to know

Toynut · Post by **Toynut** » 15 Jan 2010, 16:43

panzermk2 wrote:Extraction issues. More then likely rip a case neck off with the first magazine ran through.

I just came back from the range with some test loads of 35 grain Vmax bullets and True Blue charges of 6.2 through 6.8 grains. The 6.2 loads were mild and shot well. Stepping up to 6.4 grains and 6.6 grains resulted in two rounds out of twenty that left the case neck and shoulders in the chamber in two separate pistols. The torn brass necks fell out quite easily and the loads did not push the envelope for pressure, yet, the results was still disconcerting. I thought that this was due to some possible problems with some of the Scharch brass that I cleaned in a Simple Green solution.
Apparently I will have to start using a black light in my case inspection process from now on.

Thanks for confirming my suspicions, Jay.

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