Military Sniper Rifle

ShockedNKansas · Post by **ShockedNKansas** » 09 Sep 2012, 16:30

I know I am not a military sniper so I will never own a "sniper's rifle". But I'm starting to get the itch for a military style sniper's rifle and was wanting a few opinions. I watched a special on the Military channel and they were pretty high on the Lapua chambered rifles.

I don't want anything crazy like a Barrett .50. I just want something interesting/unusual and effective (kind of like the FiveseveN). I don't plan on hunting, but I won't rule it out. Mostly I just want something that I can put a powerful scope on and have fun shooting at distance. But I also want it to have that bad ass military look.

I would really LOVE to have one of these.. but that ain't gonna happen.. lol

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VSS_Vintorez

ShockedNKansas · Post by **ShockedNKansas** » 09 Sep 2012, 16:50

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... 208887#PIC

Yikes! This fits the bill. A little spendy though..

Post by **Rapier1772** » 09 Sep 2012, 17:34

How much do you want to spend on ammo? Will ammo availability be a factor for you? Do you plan on reloading for it?

Strictly on ammo, I'd advise something in .308 caliber. The .338 can reach out there a bit more but ammo is harder to find & more expensive, even to reload.
I think there are a couple of pics on the forum of some pimped out M1s (.308).
Either way, you're definitely going to be shelling out mucho moneyo to get it & set it up right.

If you are just going for distance, don't discount smaller calibers. The 6.5 Grendel is also good for long ranges & uses a military style platform (AR15 lowers). I've heard good things about 22-250 also, but I haven't done any research on it.

smpsmp · Post by **smpsmp** » 09 Sep 2012, 17:49

For ammo, I'd go 308 cause of what is out there. Hunting, surplus/range, and match ammo is readily available at pretty much any gun shop.

Do you want to go semi or bolt? For bolt work off a 700 action, and for semi you can go AR10 or into an M1A. I'm considering a M1A myself now. Either the super match or the M21, just haven't decided what yet.

Post by **f3rr37** » 09 Sep 2012, 18:20

Rem700 + Millet for glass, and you've got yourself a great beginner rifle. I shot a .731 MOA 8 shot group at 400 yards this summer with my SPS Tactical (.308WIN).

cvande · Post by **cvande** » 09 Sep 2012, 19:58

Remington makes a 700 R5. Like the tactical but with a 11.5 to 1 twist and an HS precision stock. Fantastic shooter for an out of the box rifle.

starfury · Post by **starfury** » 09 Sep 2012, 20:08

I agree with f3rr37. I recently had the same itch and just picked up a Rem 700 SPS Tactical AAC-SD and equipped it with a harris bipod, badger ordnance steel rail/scope mounts and a SWFA 3-9x42 scope. It shoots like a dream with good consistency and the price wasn’t that bad for everything. I screwed a muzzle brake on it for fun and it is like shooting a 223. I would recommend the setup to wet your appetite.

SHEEPDOG · Post by **SHEEPDOG** » 09 Sep 2012, 20:59

I have 3 Blasser Tac 2's 338LM. I live and hunt in west Texas. There are allot of places to shoot it on our ranch. You may find it difficult to find a range that will let you shoot it because it destroys targets and is VERY loud if you are not the one pulling the trigger. These guns have a straight pull bolt and a collet locking system. They are incredibly accurate. We shoot one pound exploding rifle targets off the top of Homer buckets at 1,000 to 1,500 yds. All three are set up exactly the same with5.5x22x50 Nightforce zero stop scopes. They are big and Heavy. If all you are going to do is shoot 400-600 yds. Go with the 300 win mag, 308, 243,and 22-250, with barrels interchangeable barrels. the barrels on the 338LM are not interchangeable with other calibers.

ShockedNKansas · Post by **ShockedNKansas** » 10 Sep 2012, 09:10

Thanks for all the input guys! It definitely looks like the Rem 700 is the way to go. It's a great shooter and very reasonably priced. Just one thing, it looks like a typical hunting rifle -- not tactiCOOL.

Oh, and Sheepdog? 3 Blasser Tac 2 .338's?

ShockedNKansas · Post by **ShockedNKansas** » 10 Sep 2012, 09:24

Rapier1772 wrote:How much do you want to spend on ammo? Will ammo availability be a factor for you? Do you plan on reloading for it?

Ammo price doesn't really matter because I won't be shooting it that much. I probably won't reload either.

smpsmp wrote:Do you want to go semi or bolt?

Bolt will be fine.

srt-4_jon · Post by **srt-4_jon** » 10 Sep 2012, 09:55

Look at the Savage 10 line. I had one chambered in 308 in a HS precision stock until I sold it for my FN SPR. Also, what kind of distance are you thinking?
You think you wont shoot it much but what good is a $1000 rifle with $1000 glass if you put 20 rounds through a year?

ShockedNKansas · Post by **ShockedNKansas** » 10 Sep 2012, 10:21

srt-4_jon wrote:Look at the Savage 10 line. I had one chambered in 308 in a HS precision stock until I sold it for my FN SPR. Also, what kind of distance are you thinking?
You think you wont shoot it much but what good is a $1000 rifle with $1000 glass if you put 20 rounds through a year?

I don't know what distances.. the further the better, but I'm limited to where I can shoot right now. I will probably have to join a local club that has an outdoor range.

As far as how much I shoot; the only gun I shoot fairly consistently is my FsN. Everything else is just shot whenever I have time or feel the urge. I like the idea of buying guns as a hobby because there is enduring value in them. So if I don't shoot a weapon much, it's not like it's going to expire.

And yep, the Savage 10 is what I had in a link earlier in the thread. If I MUST have a Lapua chambered rifle that is also impressive to look at, that might be the one to get. At only 1,800 and change, it seems reasonable.. at least compared to a
Blasser Tac. Does anybody have any experience with Savage 10/110's?

I'm wondering what recoil is like on one of those chambered in .338? I know the 50 cal sniper rifles like the Barrett have a sophisticated shock absorbing system in them. I wonder what the 10/110 in .338 has?

ShockedNKansas · Post by **ShockedNKansas** » 10 Sep 2012, 10:29

That's a bad ass rifle.

Post by **Cyberfly** » 10 Sep 2012, 10:39

Since your specifications have changed from 'sniper' rifle to 'hunting' rifle,...and really, in the real world, what would you use a sniper rifle for? Sniping deer, elk, coyotes etc, anyway?
Please allow me to suggest a couple of the more common deer rifles in this area. Probably two of the most common and flattest shooting calibers you will run across without breaking the bank will be the .270 and the 7MM magnum. I'm sure many will disagree, however, for beginning distance shooters who are not that familiar with adjusting for windage and drop, these two calibers are quite forgiving.
The third caliber I would suggest looking into would be the always classic 30.06. In either bolt or semi-auto, this rifle can be had with either wood furniture or flat black polymer and blue or stainless machinery. Almost every rifle manufacturer will have some variant of the .06 and as just about any hunter will tell you, unless you are going after really big game in Africa (and some claim it will work there, as well), the 30.06 is the do-everything caliber. It has won World Wars and it has taken thousands of game.
Just a humble suggestion.

ShockedNKansas · Post by **ShockedNKansas** » 10 Sep 2012, 10:49

Cyberfly wrote:Since your specifications have changed from 'sniper' rifle to 'hunting' rifle,...and really, in the real world, what would you use a sniper rifle for? Sniping deer, elk, coyotes etc, anyway?
Please allow me to suggest a couple of the more common deer rifles in this area. Probably two of the most common and flattest shooting calibers you will run across without breaking the bank will be the .270 and the 7MM magnum. I'm sure many will disagree, however, for beginning distance shooters who are not that familiar with adjusting for windage and drop, these two calibers are quite forgiving.
The third caliber I would suggest looking into would be the always classic 30.06. In either bolt or semi-auto, this rifle can be had with either wood furniture or flat black polymer and blue or stainless machinery. Almost every rifle manufacturer will have some variant of the .06 and as just about any hunter will tell you, unless you are going after really big game in Africa (and some claim it will work there, as well), the 30.06 is the do-everything caliber. It has won World Wars and it has taken thousands of game.
Just a humble suggestion.

When did my specifications change? Did I say something inadvertently? I don't plan on hunting with the rifle. I just want to hit itty bitty targets from as far away as I can plant myself and then have something that I can look at and say... badass. The Lapua round excites me because of what I read about it. It kind of reminds me of the 5.7, unusual and exotic.

chrisbuser · Post by **chrisbuser** » 10 Sep 2012, 11:24

Remington 700 has a history of problems with accidental discharge due to faulty trigger connector. Research specific model carefully before purchase. 308 is an excellent choice of caliber.

Website · Post by **jgreenberg01** » 10 Sep 2012, 11:26

ShockedNKansas wrote:When did my specifications change? Did I say something inadvertently? I don't plan on hunting with the rifle. I just want to hit itty bitty targets from as far away as I can plant myself and then have something that I can look at and say... badass. The Lapua round excites me because of what I read about it. It kind of reminds me of the 5.7, unusual and exotic.

If all you want is an exotic toy that will hit a flea off a dog's butt at 1000 yards, then consider a Cheytac Intervention System in .408.

Don't even bother with the ho-hum, run-of-the-mill .270, .308 or 30.06 (yawn).

I'm just sayin'...

fzr confused · Post by **fzr confused** » 10 Sep 2012, 11:35

I am in the same boat man, I reeeaaalllly want a 338 bad!!! Was not sure if I should go rem 700 or the savage. I have a 7mm rem 770 and I absolutely hate the action on it. Worst bolt gun I have ever fired, but it is also bottom of the barrel lol. Wish I went with the 700 back then instead. My only wants for this rifle is "long range" shooting. My uncle has a 600 yard range down the road for him and that's about the farthest place I know where I can shoot it. So as long as I can consistently hit good groups at that range I will be happy, so that is what I looking for in a caliber.

Post by **f3rr37** » 10 Sep 2012, 13:02

chrisbuser wrote:Remington 700 has a history of problems with accidental discharge due to faulty trigger connector. Research specific model carefully before purchase. 308 is an excellent choice of caliber.

Never had a problem with mine.

Ariac · Post by **Ariac** » 10 Sep 2012, 13:32

Howa has always done fine for most. I have one in 24" 308 axiom stock that has always done very well (1moa or better with hornady custom). The only reason I don't use it much anymore is my 700 vtr has 5r rifling and is shorter and handier in the woods.

http://www.legacysports.com/products/howa_axiom.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here is an entry level package for a howa that is all set up to get you started.

http://www.snipercentral.com/scriflepac ... ackageid=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

smpsmp · Post by **smpsmp** » 10 Sep 2012, 14:49

I remember the story on the Rem 700's safety. It's a simple fix if it ever happens, and was pretty much all on older ones, and most of the 700's today come with the X Mark trigger. Of course there is much better trigger options out there in the aftermarket world for triggers.

Savage is another good choice for the money right now, and they have certainly come a very long way from 10 years ago.

Montana actions are another favorite of mine as well, but that's because I'm partial to the Winchester Mod 70 style safety.

toyslr · Post by **toyslr** » 10 Sep 2012, 14:53

Remington 700 in .308 is one of the most prolific weapons in any aresenal! The action is used in many of the premier "sharp shooter" rifle builds out there and the 700R is one of the best out of the box sub 2" rifle out there

Remington 700 has a history of problems with accidental discharge due to faulty trigger connector. Research specific model carefully before purchase. 308 is an excellent choice of caliber.

This comment is ridiculous and a overhype by Remington "hater"s, its like saying a Honda Accord or Toyota Camry are stolen more than any other car. Yea dumbass because there are three times as many on the street!! LOL....

Post by **Cyberfly** » 10 Sep 2012, 16:26

ShockedNKansas wrote:When did my specifications change? Did I say something inadvertently? I don't plan on hunting with the rifle. I just want to hit itty bitty targets from as far away as I can plant myself and then have something that I can look at and say... badass. The Lapua round excites me because of what I read about it. It kind of reminds me of the 5.7, unusual and exotic.

Forgive me if I read too much into your post when you said:

ShockedNKansas wrote:Thanks for all the input guys! It definitely looks like the Rem 700 is the way to go. It's a great shooter and very reasonably priced. Just one thing, it looks like a typical hunting rifle -- not tactiCOOL.

And you are right. It does indeed look like a typical hunting rifle:

However, you can 'tacticool' it out, just like any other rifle. You can even (if you are willing to spend the money up front) purchase them factory made in black, camo or (I may be mistaken) FDE.
However, it was this post that lead me to believe that you were also considering 'hunting rifles' that could also be used as a sniper rifle.
Considering the history of the 30.06, it is possibly the single most used cartridge for sniper rifles in modern American history until recently. But, again, I was only trying to point you in other directions that might be easier for you to shoot since you admitted to not being a practiced distance shooter. Both the 7MM magnum and the .270 are very flat distance shooters and that is why so many game hunters choose them.
That was all I was trying to say.
If I read your post incorrectly in any way, then I apologize, and will leave you to your tacticool rifle building.

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 10 Sep 2012, 16:31

308 is ok but if you want something for distance and you don't want to go 50 size you really can beat a big 338. 338 Rem Mag is least powerful but less expensive than Lapua. 338 edge is a 300 ultra mag necked up to 338 and it just about matches Lapua if not slightly exceed it in power.

I have a full custom 338 Lapua Mag Improved 40 degrees. The gun will shoot 300 gr Bergers at over 3000 fps and has more energy at 1200 yards than a 308 does at muzzle point. And first fire forming groups were in the high 4s and low 5s (at 200 yards). Based on previous experience, full improved loads should shoot in 3s or even 2s if FF shoot that well.

If you want something that isn't as big but still flat shooting and lethal for a deer at a 1000 yds, go with a 280 Ackley Improved

If you want to go smaller, go the 6.5x47 Lapua or 6mm Ackley Improved

If you just want to hit paper a long ways a way and group small, go the 6 Dasher Route.

Whichever way you go I recommend at the very least a trued (blueprinted) action, preferably Remington 700, and a custom barrel. Lilja, Krieger, Bartlein are the best out there. Shillen a step down but still way better than factory barrel.

If you are doing on a more cheap ticket go with a upper level Savage, tikka, or a Thompson Center. Stay away from Remington and winchester stock rifles. Some of the worst barrel QC out there. Browning and Ruger are bad too.

Weatherby is a decent hunting rig but if you want tight shooting they aren't for you. They make their rifles for hunting and looks. Rarely group in the 7s and don't hold MOA much past 600 yards. Rounds are designed to release an ungodly amount of energy in the first 500 yds which is plenty for most hunting in the world.

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 10 Sep 2012, 16:39

Also, don't skimp on glass. Go for the most scope you can afford for your money. Personally I think Nightforce is all anyone needs. Leupold makes some fine long range scopes. Next step down I would go with Sighttron S3. Next down from that I would go Vortex Vipers. I wouldn't go lower for this type of rig.

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 10 Sep 2012, 16:57

srt-4_jon wrote:Look at the Savage 10 line. I had one chambered in 308 in a HS precision stock until I sold it for my FN SPR. Also, what kind of distance are you thinking?
You think you wont shoot it much but what good is a $1000 rifle with $1000 glass if you put 20 rounds through a year?

That is the best beginner platform to get IMO. All other guns in that price range shoot half as well out of the box.

And stay away from the 700R. Too much money for what you get. Again, Rems barrels these days are pretty hit and miss. Great action though. I have two custom builds off blueprinted Rem700 LAs (6AI and 280AI) and working on one more on a SA (6BR)

PainKillaX · Post by **PainKillaX** » 10 Sep 2012, 17:09

Military sniper rifle? Springfield 1903

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 10 Sep 2012, 17:11

Nice. Racked up a ton of kills as a platform. That is for sure.

ShockedNKansas · Post by **ShockedNKansas** » 10 Sep 2012, 17:27

flyingirish04 wrote:Also, don't skimp on glass. Go for the most scope you can afford for your money. Personally I think Nightforce is all anyone needs. Leupold makes some fine long range scopes. Next step down I would go with Sighttron S3. Next down from that I would go Vortex Vipers. I wouldn't go lower for this type of rig.

I saw some Nightforce scopes going for 2,000.00!! Son of a monkey! :monkey:

The only way I'm spending that much on glass is if I have a showdown the following day with a Hodgie sniper.

flyingirish04 wrote:
srt-4_jon wrote:Look at the Savage 10 line. I had one chambered in 308 in a HS precision stock until I sold it for my FN SPR. Also, what kind of distance are you thinking?
You think you wont shoot it much but what good is a $1000 rifle with $1000 glass if you put 20 rounds through a year?
That is the best beginner platform to get IMO. All other guns in that price range shoot half as well out of the box.

And stay away from the 700R. Too much money for what you get. Again, Rems barrels these days are pretty hit and miss. Great action though. I have two custom builds off blueprinted Rem700 LAs (6AI and 280AI) and working on one more on a SA (6BR)

Yeah, I really like the options on a few of the Savage 10's. Since I'm a noob and I may only buy one "sniping" rifle, depending on how much I like shooting it and the availability of long distance ranges in my area, I want it to have most of the stuff right out of the box.

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 10 Sep 2012, 17:32

Buy it in 6.5 Creedmore or 6.5-284 if you go that route. Or 7mm Mag if you want to go mag route. I wouldnt get it in any other calibers. And it will be way cheaper than my rig. I know NF are expensive, but they are worth it when I have more than a blaser in my custom rifle. Putting anything less on it would just be wrong.

PainKillaX · Post by **PainKillaX** » 10 Sep 2012, 17:37

Or a Winchester Model 70. If it was good enough for GySgt Carlos Hathcock, it's good enough for you.

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 10 Sep 2012, 17:43

Unfortunately, Model 70s suck today. Probably one of the worst buys on bolt guns today. Barrels are not good, new trigger is pretty bad. And Hathcocks Winchester had a custom barrel on it. Big difference from stock 70. Pre-64 or not.

ShockedNKansas · Post by **ShockedNKansas** » 10 Sep 2012, 17:46

Then I think the Savage Arms 10/110 BA is the one for me. It comes in 300 Win Mag, 308 Win, and 338 Lapua Mag. Is there any reason why I shouldn't go with the 338 Lapua besides ammo availability or cost? I'm really a fanboi of the round. I checked at CTD and you can get some pretty good 338 Lapua for 2.50 a round. It looks like decent 300 Win Mag goes for just under 1.00 a round, and decent 308 Win is right under .50 a round.

How do you think the recoil would be on the Savage 10/110 chambered in .338 Lapua? Would it be ridiculous? It doesn't look too bad in the videos.

ETA: I just noticed you recommended 6.5 Creedmore, 6.5-284, or 7mm Mag, but the Savage website doesn't show it available in those calibers.

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 10 Sep 2012, 17:55

I love the Lapua Round. Recoil wil be significant but not unshootable. I would get the model with the HS stock, not the big heavy one with all the rails and crap. Not sure Of exact model. Don't know savages well anymore as far as models. I should since I owned several and still own a few.

But honestly, if you aren't going to shoot extreme distances, I wouldn't go that route. Go the model down in one of the shorter cartridges I mentioned. It will be very accurate and cost less.

But if you want a loud, bigger and badder option and don't mind spending 3 bucks a round, the 338 is one of the finest rounds out there. If I didn't go the Imp 40 route for the custom, I was going to just go with the regular 338 Lapua instead. My 338 Lapua Imp will shoot both though so I went that route.

There are more powerful 338 cartridges out there, but none have as well designed cartridge aspects as the Lapua and none allow you to use the best components like the 338 LM or LM imp 40 do. It will cost ya though.

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 10 Sep 2012, 18:01

ShockedNKansas wrote:
ETA: I just noticed you recommended 6.5 Creedmore, 6.5-284, or 7mm Mag, but the Savage website doesn't show it available in those calibers.

Yeah sorry, got models confused. I think the model 12 allows you to go those calibers but I'm no savage model expert, sorry.

Oh and the 300 win mag is a versatile round. I just prefer the 7mm because you can use 180 Berger VLDs. I have a friend that just retired from the Secret Service. He was a sniper for then and he said he nearly wept when they were forced to convert from the 7 rem mag to the 300 Win mag. The win may is a bit more powerful but the BC to weight ratios on the 30 cal bullets they had to use weren't as good and the rifles were heavier and shot worse in his opinion.

I tend to agree with his sentiment, knowing full well it is mainly just sentiment.

srt-4_jon · Post by **srt-4_jon** » 10 Sep 2012, 18:17

flyingirish04 wrote:Unfortunately, Model 70s suck today. Probably one of the worst buys on bolt guns today. Barrels are not good, new trigger is pretty bad. And Hathcocks Winchester had a custom barrel on it. Big difference from stock 70. Pre-64 or not.

my fn spr is a model 70 and it shoots lights out. Cant beat a claw extractor, fixed ejector, and the best trigger in its price range.

ShockedNKansas · Post by **ShockedNKansas** » 10 Sep 2012, 18:20

http://vimeo.com/40376685

:patriot: :guns: :guns:

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 10 Sep 2012, 18:46

srt-4_jon wrote:
flyingirish04 wrote:Unfortunately, Model 70s suck today. Probably one of the worst buys on bolt guns today. Barrels are not good, new trigger is pretty bad. And Hathcocks Winchester had a custom barrel on it. Big difference from stock 70. Pre-64 or not.
my fn spr is a model 70 and it shoots lights out. Cant beat a claw extractor, fixed ejector, and the best trigger in its price range.

That is a lot different than a mod 70. And I don't know what lights out is but I have seen plenty of SPRs that struggle to shoot in 7s. But the SPR has a semi custom bbl not a Winchester factory barrel. That will help a lot. But that trigger isn't the best value, even in its price range. Not even close. It's decent but for far less the accutrigger is better. Not to mention you could by a much cheaper tc or tikka and put a timney or the like and still be far less than the SPR.

Claw extractor and positive is largely a gimmick unless you are going to have to unchamber and then chamber a round with fun upside down a lot. There is a small change other actions will jam in that situation. I only see the need with a dedicated DG rifle.

But you like your SPR and if it shoots consistently under half MOA don't do a thing to it and enjoy! It isn't a bad rifle or anything. It is a good rifle for a factory premium rifle.

If it doesnt get a real stock like a HS or Mcmillian ( or one with bedding pillars) and have it bedded. If that diesnt work, get a custom bbl. or sell and start over with a Rem or custom action. I know Romer gets some groups in the 3 s with his SPR bedded.

srt-4_jon · Post by **srt-4_jon** » 10 Sep 2012, 18:53

my accutrigger was terrible. if I closed the bolt to fast or to hard, it would trip amd I had to re cock it. Im not the only one it has happend to either. plus Im not a fan of pulling a trigger to pull your actual trigger. at least not in a bolt gun. and I was speaking factory rifle triggers.

those SPRs that struggle should be sent in. fn promises under 1moa. Im betting they were part of the bad batches of barrels.

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 10 Sep 2012, 18:59

Shooting in the 7s is under MOA.

And that issue with accutrigger was fixed years ago. I had one of the first accutrigger models and mine did the same thing. Sent it in and it was fixed. Trust me I prefer my jewel triggers to anything. There is a brand new BR trigger out of Europe that I might try on my 6BR build. A friend of a friend just got the exclusive import rights for it. Can't remember the name. BR for the money, the accutrigger is a fine option now. And the two trigger thing isn't noticeable unless you focus on it IMO.

Old Rem 700 triggers Re excellent too if you tune them (safely) a bit. Don't like the new xmarks at all

Don't like Win triggers. Either to spongy or way to sharp. Can't get the crisp sub 2.5 pound breaks IMO.

FWIW the SPR is a great gun. Overpriced in my opinion (dont like the 308 round chambering that is. The WSM model is better value) but if you don't want the headache of a custom build it is a fine option.

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 10 Sep 2012, 19:07

You ever shot TCs Icons? May be best gun for money right now. Might buy one in 6.5Creed. Get it tuned in and have for friends/family to use when the fly in to hunt yotes with me. Doesnt happen too often, but Better than the tikka I let em use now.

Post by **jmz5** » 11 Sep 2012, 04:16

I like my 12f in 6.5x284, but it's only single shot and not tactical at all. Currently looking at 6.5 creedmoor, or 6.5 x 47 Lapua as my next project.

chrisbuser · Post by **chrisbuser** » 11 Sep 2012, 04:57

toyslr wrote:Remington 700 in .308 is one of the most prolific weapons in any aresenal! The action is used in many of the premier "sharp shooter" rifle builds out there and the 700R is one of the best out of the box sub 2" rifle out there

Remington 700 has a history of problems with accidental discharge due to faulty trigger connector. Research specific model carefully before purchase. 308 is an excellent choice of caliber.
This comment is ridiculous and a overhype by Remington "hater"s, its like saying a Honda Accord or Toyota Camry are stolen more than any other car. Yea dumbass because there are three times as many on the street!! LOL....

I don't hate Remington, but I do prefer the AR10 platform over bolt action

toyslr · Post by **toyslr** » 11 Sep 2012, 06:21

AR series .308's aren't bad but there is a reason most shooters in the military are throwing down the M110 and going back to either bolts or M1A1's

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 11 Sep 2012, 06:50

ARs are entirely overpriced. You need to spend three times as much for one to shoot half as well as a bolt gun. The military snipers uses the 308 simply because it is a standard NATO round. Most that can shoot at least a 300 win mag now, and even more are going to the 338 Lapua. The 308 is used more for sniper school now and closer in urban over watch missions.

If you are paying for it, you owe it to yourself to use something other than the 308, and unless you are spending 3k for a custom billet AR, you are wasting money on a gun that can't shoot MOA consistently. And won't hold it past a few hundred yards.

Sure u can fire it fast, but for precision shooting, it is not the best platform for the money. Not even close.

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 11 Sep 2012, 06:51

jmz5 wrote:I like my 12f in 6.5x284, but it's only single shot and not tactical at all. Currently looking at 6.5 creedmoor, or 6.5 x 47 Lapua as my next project.

To with the Lapua if you are building it. More costly but much better components.

Website · Post by **jgreenberg01** » 11 Sep 2012, 06:58

flyingirish04 wrote:ARs are entirely overpriced. You need to spend three times as much for one to shoot half as well as a bolt gun. The military snipers uses the 308 simply because it is a standard NATO round. Most that can shoot at least a 300 win mag now, and even more are going to the 338 Lapua. The 308 is used more for sniper school now and closer in urban over watch missions.

If you are paying for it, you owe it to yourself to use something other than the 308, and unless you are spending 3k for a custom billet AR, you are wasting money on a gun that can't shoot MOA consistently. And won't hold it past a few hundred yards.

Sure u can fire it fast, but for precision shooting, it is not the best platform for the money. Not even close.

Irish - I recently took my LR308 out to 500 yards for the first time. but with an el-cheapo scope. Previously the farthest range I had access to was 200 yards and it could pretty much hit a quarter consistently.

I am wondering what you would expect the best consistent groups to be from an AR10 at 500 yards. Now that I have decent glass and 500 yard access, I'm gonna give it a try...

toyslr · Post by **toyslr** » 11 Sep 2012, 08:03

Been out to 600 yards with mine...
Carlos Hathcock, i'm not! But i can get the job done

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 11 Sep 2012, 12:37

I bet you could hit a quarter group a few times. Not consistently. Sorry, not a believer there based on experience. And you can of course shoot a man sized target out to 600, heck i could do that with a 556 with battle sights. Not what we are talking about. You cant shoot a 6 inch target consistently at that range. Sorry.

I have shot many AR platforms. Some of the finest like the OBR or MK11s KAC made genus in the service, that can shoot sub 5s easily. I have also shot run of the mill stock forged ARs and have hit man sized silhouettes are over 1200 yards. But not in consistent groups. No way. The guns aren't designed for that. The SR versions are capable of better than run of the mill ARs, but cost almost 2 times what a bofungus with same capabilities as an M40 would cost to build.

To say an AR platform can match a bolt platform dollar for dollar just isn't accurate. It doesn't. Sure they are cool, but you will be out distanced in every occurrence. Particularly if hamstrung by the 7.62 NATO cartridge. Now if you need a battle rifle or a medium range DMR platform, I agree, the AR platform is preferable. That is why the Mk 11 and 12 were designed.

If you want a long to extreme range precision shooter those rifles start to be marginal out past 800 yards and is why rifles like a bolt gun are still the choice. It is also why more powerful and/or more efficient chamberigs are chosen in the civilian world. I'm saying the 308 is obsolete, but darn near, in those uses. There are simply so many better options available. Even from factory rifles.

You love your ARs. Guess what I do too. They are a ton of fun. They don't replace a well tuned bolt gun though.

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 11 Sep 2012, 12:44

jgreenberg01 wrote:
flyingirish04 wrote:ARs are entirely overpriced. You need to spend three times as much for one to shoot half as well as a bolt gun. The military snipers uses the 308 simply because it is a standard NATO round. Most that can shoot at least a 300 win mag now, and even more are going to the 338 Lapua. The 308 is used more for sniper school now and closer in urban over watch missions.

If you are paying for it, you owe it to yourself to use something other than the 308, and unless you are spending 3k for a custom billet AR, you are wasting money on a gun that can't shoot MOA consistently. And won't hold it past a few hundred yards.

Sure u can fire it fast, but for precision shooting, it is not the best platform for the money. Not even close.
Irish - I recently took my LR308 out to 500 yards for the first time. but with an el-cheapo scope. Previously the farthest range I had access to was 200 yards and it could pretty much hit a quarter consistently.

I am wondering what you would expect the best consistent groups to be from an AR10 at 500 yards. Now that I have decent glass and 500 yard access, I'm gonna give it a try...

With that rifle I would be surprised if you got consistent groups under 6 inches. It is possible if you somehow got lucky and got the best barrel in the factory. But it isn't likely.

I could give you a stock savage chambered in 308 that could do that all day and cost less than 1300. scoped and all.

ShockedNKansas · Post by **ShockedNKansas** » 11 Sep 2012, 13:54

Okay, now that everybody's got that out of their system...

So is there anybody with a negative opinion about the following rifle for a beginner "sharp" shooter such as myself?

http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/model/110BA

I also posted the following video earlier in the thread with a guy using this very same rifle to hit a man-size target at one mile. Considering the lack of responses, I am assuming that isn't a big deal?

http://vimeo.com/40376685

And I know that ammo quality varies with any caliber. But CTD has 338 LP ammo for 2.50/round. Is this ammo high enough quality to have some accuracy at extreme distances?

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/2-SB34040

Also, with a rifle such as this, I am allowing a bit more wiggle room in the scope budget. I noticed the following rifle scope review rated a 300.00 Leupold as their top scope for 2012. Will this scope have enough power and quality to keep me happy (understand I am easy to please as long as everything functions correctly).

http://www.outdoorlife.com/photos/galle ... 1001355429

toyslr · Post by **toyslr** » 11 Sep 2012, 14:00

You have the relative in house expert on the case now! Good luck :laugh: I'll just set back with my Remington 700 5-R and not be able to hit anything.

Website · Post by **jgreenberg01** » 11 Sep 2012, 14:25

flyingirish04 wrote:With that rifle I would be surprised if you got consistent groups under 6 inches. It is possible if you somehow got lucky and got the best barrel in the factory. But it isn't likely.

I could give you a stock savage chambered in 308 that could do that all day and cost less than 1300. scoped and all.

Thanks for the input, I appreciate it. We'll put that to the test in the next couple of weeks as I will finally be able to spend some quality time with the gun. As far as hitting quarters at 200 yards, while it wasn't 100% consistent, it hit them 57% of the time. At its worst it did 1.5" groups at that range.

The first (and only) time I took it out to 500 yards, it did 3 groups ranging from 7-8.5", but that was with a blurry-as-hell, dark scope that is now gone. Immediately after that, I hit a 4"x4" exploding target on the first shot (I'm sure it was beginner's luck!). It was also my first attempt at anything over 200 yards so truthfully I wasn't expecting even those results. This is a learning experience for me.

Hopefully you hit then nail on the head and I got the lucky barrel.

cvande · Post by **cvande** » 11 Sep 2012, 15:10

toyslr wrote:You have the relative in house expert on the case now! Good luck :laugh: I'll just set back with my Remington 700 5-R and not be able to hit anything.

+1

At least it's only half the cost to not be able to hit anything.

fzr confused · Post by **fzr confused** » 11 Sep 2012, 15:46

ShockedNKansas wrote:Okay, now that everybody's got that out of their system...

So is there anybody with a negative opinion about the following rifle for a beginner "sharp" shooter such as myself?

http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/model/110BA

I also posted the following video earlier in the thread with a guy using this very same rifle to hit a man-size target at one mile. Considering the lack of responses, I am assuming that isn't a big deal?

http://vimeo.com/40376685

And I know that ammo quality varies with any caliber. But CTD has 338 LP ammo for 2.50/round. Is this ammo high enough quality to have some accuracy at extreme distances?

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/2-SB34040

Also, with a rifle such as this, I am allowing a bit more wiggle room in the scope budget. I noticed the following rifle scope review rated a 300.00 Leupold as their top scope for 2012. Will this scope have enough power and quality to keep me happy (understand I am easy to please as long as everything functions correctly).

http://www.outdoorlife.com/photos/galle ... 1001355429

yes, if i had the funds that gun would already be in my safe! as far as hitting things a mile away, i would consider a big deal! at least to me anyway lol. that scope, while better than ANY scope i own (i am a cheap bastard when it comes to optics

) i would not think it was the best scope for a rifle with this much potential. as a matter of fact, i would not even use it on mine if/when i buy a .338 lapua, and like i said, i am a cheapo like that. i would run that scope on a lesser rifle no problem though

....then again i know very little about scopes.

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 11 Sep 2012, 17:21

fzr confused wrote:
ShockedNKansas wrote:Okay, now that everybody's got that out of their system...

So is there anybody with a negative opinion about the following rifle for a beginner "sharp" shooter such as myself?

http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/model/110BA

I also posted the following video earlier in the thread with a guy using this very same rifle to hit a man-size target at one mile. Considering the lack of responses, I am assuming that isn't a big deal?

http://vimeo.com/40376685

And I know that ammo quality varies with any caliber. But CTD has 338 LP ammo for 2.50/round. Is this ammo high enough quality to have some accuracy at extreme distances?

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/2-SB34040

Also, with a rifle such as this, I am allowing a bit more wiggle room in the scope budget. I noticed the following rifle scope review rated a 300.00 Leupold as their top scope for 2012. Will this scope have enough power and quality to keep me happy (understand I am easy to please as long as everything functions correctly).

http://www.outdoorlife.com/photos/galle ... 1001355429
yes, if i had the funds that gun would already be in my safe! as far as hitting things a mile away, i would consider a big deal! at least to me anyway lol. that scope, while better than ANY scope i own (i am a cheap bastard when it comes to optics ) i would not think it was the best scope for a rifle with this much potential. as a matter of fact, i would not even use it on mine if/when i buy a .338 lapua, and like i said, i am a cheapo like that. i would run that scope on a lesser rifle no problem though ....then again i know very little about scopes.

I wouldn't pick that particular model personally. I like this one http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/model/10FCPHS" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; better. But yours is still a very fine out of the box rifle, and very good value.

But other than that, fzr is right on. The minimum glass I would put on that is a Vortex Viper 6-24 or Sighttron SIII. I think the best for the money scope to match that is probably a Mk4 L or ER/T in 6.5-20. But understand if you want to spend less.

As far as ammo, I would stick with hand loading. Buy a hundred unfired lapua cases, and some VV N570 and some 300 SMKs or better yet Berger Hybrids, and go to town. You will be much happier. If you don't want to do that, I like the HSM 300 grain Berger loads the best of factory loads, even though they have crappy brass compared to the Lapua, BHs or Remington Match loads that use Lapua Brass.

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 11 Sep 2012, 17:26

toyslr wrote:You have the relative in house expert on the case now! Good luck :laugh: I'll just set back with my Remington 700 5-R and not be able to hit anything.

:laugh:

Don't mistake me, that is a pretty darn good bolt gun. I hope I didn't lead you to think differently. Way nicer than the SPR IMO. And FWIW, I am told that Krieger makes those barrels for Remington, just like they make a lot of the M40 barrels, along with Lilja and a few other companies. So you basically have a semi custom rifle there. Just wish it didn't have the X-mark trigger. Oh well, you can replace it with a Jewell. :thumb:

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 11 Sep 2012, 17:37

jgreenberg01 wrote:
flyingirish04 wrote:With that rifle I would be surprised if you got consistent groups under 6 inches. It is possible if you somehow got lucky and got the best barrel in the factory. But it isn't likely.

I could give you a stock savage chambered in 308 that could do that all day and cost less than 1300. scoped and all.
Thanks for the input, I appreciate it. We'll put that to the test in the next couple of weeks as I will finally be able to spend some quality time with the gun. As far as hitting quarters at 200 yards, while it wasn't 100% consistent, it hit them 57% of the time. At its worst it did 1.5" groups at that range.

The first (and only) time I took it out to 500 yards, it did 3 groups ranging from 7-8.5", but that was with a blurry-as-hell, dark scope that is now gone. Immediately after that, I hit a 4"x4" exploding target on the first shot (I'm sure it was beginner's luck!). It was also my first attempt at anything over 200 yards so truthfully I wasn't expecting even those results. This is a learning experience for me.

Hopefully you hit then nail on the head and I got the lucky barrel.

That sounds likely for 200 yards with that rifle, 1.5 inches. Not unheard of. I notice significant MOA drift past 3 or 400. Actually see it around 500 with 5.56, barrels are stiffer than the 7.62s. Even so, I have owned exactly one AR that shot consistent MOA at 100 yards, much less 200, and I have owned six ARs (well five, and one Sig 556).

Also remember that shooter capabilities are always more important than gear. If I may channel my inner Blue. So I will suspend my absolute doubt in your ability to shoot that tight with a stock AR.

Website · Post by **jgreenberg01** » 11 Sep 2012, 18:08

flyingirish04 wrote:That sounds likely for 200 yards with that rifle, 1.5 inches. Not unheard of. I notice significant MOA drift past 3 or 400. Actually see it around 500 with 5.56, barrels are stiffer than the 7.62s. Even so, I have owned exactly one AR that shot consistent MOA at 100 yards, much less 200, and I have owned six ARs (well five, and one Sig 556).

Also remember that shooter capabilities are always more important than gear. If I may channel my inner Blue. So I will suspend my absolute doubt in your ability to shoot that tight with a stock AR.

Thanks for being willing to suspend your doubt, but because I have virtually no experience beyond 200 yards... 500 is seriously new territory for me and I have real doubts about my ability at this point. Either way, there will be a video (in the guise of a Leupold review) for all to see the win, fail, or anywhere in between. :laugh:

I know 500 yards is a stroll in the park for you, but for me, it's really reaching out to touch someone. Someday I will build a real precision rifle like the OP was asking about, but for now I think I'll learn the basics on my mostly-stock LR308.

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 11 Sep 2012, 18:12

It would be a stroll with the rifles I have probably for you. They make it easier. I still try to make up for my lack of talent with good gear. That is how bad I am.

When I was at Bragg, I was very humbled in my abilities. I grew up hunting, an excellent shotgun shot always and I though a good rifle shot too. Shot Expert Pistol and Rifle my first M16 qual my 3/C Marine CORTRAMID phase. I found out I sucked when I went to the SWC and basically had to re learn (poorly) precision shooting. Luckily I was an officer and never was going to need to be behind the rifle unless things went very very wrong. But after spending some time, I thought I was very decent again.

Then I got in to reloading and custom builds, and I realized even more that I needed every advantage to keep up with my BR shooting buddies, and yet again, that I sucked at shooting compared to them. Lucky I don't like BR much, because don't know if I would ever be great at it.

Now my bug is LR Hunting. That will be what the LM Imp is for. And the great thing about BR buddies is that fundamentally, they know the ins and outs of shooting, so they are a big help with the LR Hunting.

Anyway, my point is, I shoot a lot with rifles. And I am never good enough.

Website · Post by **jgreenberg01** » 11 Sep 2012, 18:21

There's always someone better. I learned that playing competitive sports. Higher-end equipment can definitely improve one's performance however...

I had a coach that literally wouldn't let me use any of those products until after I got the basics down to the point that form was flawless using the standard stuff. After that, it was amazing what can be done with that high-end equipment.

Blue is correct, it is the shooter more than it's the equipment, but when you pair a highly-skilled individual with top-tier gear, the results can be awe-inspiring. I was similarly humbled as you were, although it was in sports (as opposed to shooting) when I played against world-class players. It truly inspires one to learn how to be better to reach that next level!

Post by **blueorison** » 11 Sep 2012, 21:06

I'm too lazy and want someone to hold my hand and talk to me when I long range shoot.

Don't want to read the wind at over 3 locations, worry about baro and density, earth movement

THEN STILL HAVE TO DO ALL THE MATH FOR MY CLICKS

I DON'T LIKE MATH OK.

Level of math dislike: Asian.

Just because we're good at it, doesn't mean we like math.

Don't even go there with MOA to MIL

I pretty much have to maintain a gazillion things in my head; I just want to wait a few seconds for the beep and then go full HSLD. That's why I shoot pistol, even at 3G. Then again, I have to slow down when engaging the 100 yd 8 inch plates, but other than that, I don't have to swing around a carbine when my pistol can float like a goddess. Well, I try to make it float.

I might be old and decrepit on the inside, but when the outside matches, then I'll probably get more into long range shooting and tedious rifle/load-development. I'm also probably lying.

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 11 Sep 2012, 22:02

That is why I cheat with drop turrets. Just tune my load, get the muzzle velocity, BC of bullet, send it in to G7 or GBP depending on which scope and they laser cut a drop turret for me. Then I just need to know my winds, elevation, and if far enough out, Coriolis Effect.

It still amazes me how quick some people can do that with a scope. It takes me a good while longer...but I am getting better.

PainKillaX · Post by **PainKillaX** » 11 Sep 2012, 22:13

blueorison wrote: I might be old and decrepit on the inside, but when the outside matches, then I'll probably get more into long range shooting and tedious rifle/load-development. I'm also probably lying.

We know you'll be rocking the untacticool HSLD wheelchair one day :laugh:

Website · Post by **jgreenberg01** » 12 Sep 2012, 04:54

flyingirish04 wrote:That is why I cheat with drop turrets. Just tune my load, get the muzzle velocity, BC of bullet, send it in to G7 or GBP depending on which scope and they laser cut a drop turret for me. Then I just need to know my winds, elevation, and if far enough out, Coriolis Effect.

It still amazes me how quick some people can do that with a scope. It takes me a good while longer...but I am getting better.

If you really want to cheat: there's an app for that.

Strelok.

Just enter the scope, rifle, zero & bullet info. Then all you have to do is add climate #'s (from your weather app) and distance to target. You hit a button and it gives you the following info for the shot for both windage and elevation adjustments:

MOA
MRAD
Inches
Turret Clicks

There's a free version that does just about everything. For $4 and some change you can the version that will literally show you your retcle and where to hold based on the inputted data. And there's a $7 version that will add in the coriolis effect too.

Post by **Rapier1772** » 12 Sep 2012, 09:05

DL'd that Strelok app & trying to set it up. But what's the Temp sensitivity factor thingy?

Website · Post by **jgreenberg01** » 12 Sep 2012, 09:29

Rapier1772 wrote:DL'd that Strelok app & trying to set it up. But what's the Temp sensitivity factor thingy?

I forgot about that. I've been playing with Strelok+, the $4 version, and Strelok Pro ($7). Neither of them has that field.

When I read an old review of the free version it said that field was:

"on how many percent the bullet speed will change at change temperature on 15 degrees." Whatever that means.

There should be an email function that will send a message to the author. I sent him a question about something else and he responded in about 8 hours.

EDIT: I found the app creator's explanation at the bottom of this page:

http://www.borisov.mobi/android/default.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **Rapier1772** » 12 Sep 2012, 10:11

Thanks. Guess I need to head back out to the range on a day w/other temp. :laugh: For now, I'll leave it at 2.

ShockedNKansas · Post by **ShockedNKansas** » 22 Sep 2012, 08:47

Just got back from a gun show and would you believe there was a guy walking around carrying an unfired Savage 110 BA Lapua on his shoulder? I didn't "pull the trigger" on it because he was wanting pretty close to top dollar for it and you never know how it was treated -- even if it wasn't fired. Once good bump to the crown and it won't hit a barn from 1000 yards.

I was very tempted though. Having this rifle unregistered via a private sale is a very good thing. I'm thinking .338 Lapua would be one of the earlier banned calibers if we ever get to that point in this country.

Post by **Cyberfly** » 22 Sep 2012, 10:43

Unregistered?

Post by **Rapier1772** » 22 Sep 2012, 10:48

Think he means no BATFE paperwork. You know, the form you have to fill out every time you buy a gun from a dealer.

Some states allow face to face sales, no paperwork needed.

Post by **Cyberfly** » 22 Sep 2012, 11:41

True, but that's not registering. That's usually just a background check, called in and they ask 'pistol or long gun'. They don't find out anything particular about the weapon itself until they receive the paperwork hardcopy which is usually just filed away.
But, whatever. He's right about one thing, FTF sale means nobody knows nothing about nothing except the buyer and seller.
Unless our draconian government decides to start doing house to house searches in the middle of the night, kicking in doors with their jack booted thugs, metal detectors in hand searching the walls and floors for any kind of hidey holes for hidden caches of weapons...then...

all bets are off.

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 22 Sep 2012, 12:17

jgreenberg01 wrote:
flyingirish04 wrote:That is why I cheat with drop turrets. Just tune my load, get the muzzle velocity, BC of bullet, send it in to G7 or GBP depending on which scope and they laser cut a drop turret for me. Then I just need to know my winds, elevation, and if far enough out, Coriolis Effect.

It still amazes me how quick some people can do that with a scope. It takes me a good while longer...but I am getting better.
If you really want to cheat: there's an app for that.

Strelok.

Just enter the scope, rifle, zero & bullet info. Then all you have to do is add climate #'s (from your weather app) and distance to target. You hit a button and it gives you the following info for the shot for both windage and elevation adjustments:

MOA
MRAD
Inches
Turret Clicks

There's a free version that does just about everything. For $4 and some change you can the version that will literally show you your retcle and where to hold based on the inputted data. And there's a $7 version that will add in the coriolis effect too.

Yeah I have the app. Use it for some of my other rifles.

ShockedNKansas · Post by **ShockedNKansas** » 22 Sep 2012, 14:01

Cyberfly wrote:They don't find out anything particular about the weapon itself until they receive the paperwork hardcopy which is usually just filed away.

Some would say that having a record about a gun purchase "filed away" somewhere is a bad thing if the time comes where the U.S. Government decides to "catch up" with the world and ban firearms.

fd57 · Post by **fd57** » 22 Sep 2012, 14:14

Look to New Orleans during Katrina. The US Government disarmed lawfully abiding citizens, stripping them of their 2nd Amendment Right.

Wherever possible purchase face to face following the laws in your state. Many firearms owners have never filled out a 4473, and have no intention of doing so. It is a record that is kept for a very long time, and it can be queried by the local law enforcement as well as federal. So when push comes to shove, those with 4473 will receive a knock on their door first. Those who purchase FTF may never receive a knock.

Post by **Rapier1772** » 22 Sep 2012, 14:17

What I have heard is that the gov doesn't get the papers, the dealer keeps them.
Even then, those same dealers say there will be a mysterious fire in the records room when they close up shop.

But yeah, having no paper trail is better.

ShockedNKansas · Post by **ShockedNKansas** » 22 Sep 2012, 15:00

The FBI knows who owns firearms. That's all I'll say about that...

Post by **Cyberfly** » 22 Sep 2012, 15:27

ShockedNKansas wrote:The FBI knows who owns firearms. That's all I'll say about that...

Really? I'm curious what you base that statement on. I have friends who work in the bureau and this is news.

smpsmp · Post by **smpsmp** » 22 Sep 2012, 16:14

You do know what happens to those 4473's right after the check is approved?

They sit...for 20 years. The only way they go anywhere before that is if the dealer gets investigated. We have all of ours just boxed away right now. The same goes with the disposition books you have to keep. They just sit, then filed at away at the shop once it's all filled up.

The FBI may know who has had a background check done on them, but they don't have the slightest idea if it's even a long gun or a hand gun, let alone make and model. And who's to say you didn't sell it to someone else.

And firearms aren't even under the FBI's scope of work. There's a whole other agency for that.

ShockedNKansas · Post by **ShockedNKansas** » 22 Sep 2012, 16:31

Cyberfly wrote:
ShockedNKansas wrote:The FBI knows who owns firearms. That's all I'll say about that...
Really? I'm curious what you base that statement on. I have friends who work in the bureau and this is news.

ShockedNKansas wrote:That's all I'll say about that...

I will add one more thing; for an organization that uses/used public library book rentals as a component of determining who should be considered a threat to the U.S., the concept of a "fingerprint" existing after each and ever background check is far from absurd. However, the FBI denies keeping any records of said background checks. Take that for what you will......

Privacy and Security of NICS Information

The privacy and security of the information in the NICS is of great importance. In October 1998, the Attorney General published regulations on the privacy and security of NICS information, including the proper and official use of this information. These regulations are available on the NICS website. Data stored in the NICS is documented federal data and access to that information is restricted to agencies authorized by the FBI. Extensive measures are taken to ensure the security and integrity of the system information and agency use. The NICS is not to be used to establish a federal firearm registry; :ponder: information about an inquiry resulting in an allowed transfer is destroyed in accordance with NICS regulations. Current destruction of NICS records became effective when a final rule was published by the Department of Justice in The Federal Register, outlining the following changes. Per Title 28, Code of Federal Regulations, Part 25.9(b)(1), (2), and (3), the NICS Section must destroy all identifying information on allowed transactions prior to the start of the next NICS operational day. If a potential purchaser is delayed or denied a firearm and successfully appeals the decision, the NICS Section cannot retain a record of the overturned appeal. If the record is not able to be updated, the purchaser continues to be denied or delayed, and if that individual appeals the decision, the documentation must be resubmitted on every subsequent purchase. For this reason, the Voluntary Appeal File (VAF) has been established. This process permits applicants to request that the NICS maintain information about themselves in the VAF to prevent future denials or extended delays of a firearm transfer. (See VAF Section below.)

Okay, now that's really all I will say about that. I have to go outside now because I hear a helicopter..

Post by **Cyberfly** » 22 Sep 2012, 17:08

Well, if you take some tinfoil and wrap it tightly around your head, they won't be able to read your thoughts.
Reynold wrap won't work because that is aluminum foil, it has to be TIN...with aluminum, they can transmit stuff and make you do things against your will. :monkey:

smpsmp · Post by **smpsmp** » 22 Sep 2012, 20:32

Just thought of another thing, shy of a multiple sale purchase for handguns, unless they actually looked at the 4473's, or the disposition books, how would they know if you bought 1 or 100 long guns in one check?

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 23 Sep 2012, 00:25

All they know is that a check was performed. That's it, at least when it comes to just filling out a 4473. And they need probable cause and a warrant to review any particular 4473.

Now states that require registration, that is another story.

Post by **Cyberfly** » 23 Sep 2012, 11:17

flyingirish04 wrote:All they know is that a check was performed. That's it, at least when it comes to just filling out a 4473. And they need probable cause and a warrant to review any particular 4473.

Now states that require registration, that is another story.

Exactly. I just wouldn't think that Kansas would, which was why I originally asked 'unregistered'?
I think had he said 'untraceable' I wouldn't have simply :thumb: .

ShockedNKansas · Post by **ShockedNKansas** » 29 Jul 2013, 15:39

I found a great deal on a very lightly used Savage 110 BA Lapua with scope and bipod included. She's on her way. Another weapon to cross off my list.

I think I have everything I want now. My collection is complete unless I expand my knowledge base on weapon systems and I'm trying not to do that.

Yes I've seen the Tavor. Yes I know they are amazing. No, I don't want to talk about it.... lol

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 29 Jul 2013, 21:52

My collection is never complete. Keeps changing and growing. Maybe its because I'm never satisfied in general. Always can do better.

Anyway for a stock gun, that 110 is pretty darn good. With right load you should be able to shot in 5s no problem. I prefer the 110 FCP HS version though. Far better value than the 700 LM variants. And I say that as a past owner of one.

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