Shooting EA Ammo (and others) Into Clay Blocks

Website · Post by **jgreenberg01** » 12 Apr 2011, 15:46

Ok, so I was on my way home from work this evening and I noticed a Hobby Lobby (a crafts superstore) and I said to myself, I said:

"Self..."

Then I said:

"What?"

"Let's have some fun at the range tomorrow"

Ok, with all these posts about the elusive "stopping power" (or lack thereof) and people trying to equate the 5.7 round to a 22mag, I figured I would try something that I have not seen anyone shoot at yet. I picked up four 25lb bricks of very dense modeling clay. I'm limited to 4 shots and I was thinking S5, ProtecTOR1 and for a baseline Speer Gold Dot 9mm and Federal Hydra-Shock 45acp.

I picked those 2 non-5.7 rounds as a baseline because most people are familiar with them. I could eliminate one of them and use SS197 in it's place, but I'm not sure anyone cares how that round performs. After shooting the clay bricks I will slice them in half using a wire or fishing line to view the wound channels and compare them side-by-side. Of course I will video tape the whole thing and post it regardless of the outcome (I don't expect any of the rounds to completely penetrate these things).

I'm writing this in advance because I was wondering if anyone here has any suggestions regarding the rounds to use or have any other input. I know it's short notice but I will be doing this in about 14 hours from posting this.

I should have the video editing finished within 24 hours and depending on whether or not youtube is cooperating, should have it uploaded within 48 hours after this post at the latest.

Post by **f3rr37** » 12 Apr 2011, 15:49

I can't wait!

cHaMeLeoN352 · Post by **cHaMeLeoN352** » 12 Apr 2011, 15:58

Hell yeah! I look forward to the results...

It's times like these that I miss living on a farm in FL where I can shoot whatever and whenever I desire. Now, I'm reduced to an urban townhouse with no land :suicide:

Happy shooting!!! :guns:

Mister Freeze · Post by **Mister Freeze** » 12 Apr 2011, 16:24

I've shot 10lb blocks of modeling clay before. VERY COOL. .45 and .40 HP's baloon the blocks well, and you can reach in and pluck out the slug. 9mm HP's go thru, but only 10 feet beyond. What you're left with is the expanded part you see in gel videos before they collapse back in on themselves. I've also seen it done with 5gal buckets filled with the stuff. Video if you can!

PainKillaX · Post by **PainKillaX** » 12 Apr 2011, 16:54

SWEET!!! And when you're done squish it back together and use 197

Buffman · Post by **Buffman** » 12 Apr 2011, 17:24

how much does a 25 lb block of clay cost? I've always wanted to use some, but never really see any places around that would sell them.

I have access to a 22 mag autloader (6" barrel) and could run some tests with that.

Website · Post by **jgreenberg01** » 12 Apr 2011, 17:43

Buffman wrote:how much does a 25 lb block of clay cost? I've always wanted to use some, but never really see any places around that would sell them.

I have access to a 22 mag autloader (6" barrel) and could run some tests with that.

They were $14.99 each. I'm sure they are available much cheaper if one shops around, but my car kinda steered itself into the parking lot...

Buffman · Post by **Buffman** » 12 Apr 2011, 17:46

interesting we have a hobby lobby. I thought they might have been more expensive. I might have to pick up some

Website · Post by **jgreenberg01** » 12 Apr 2011, 17:57

I got the air dry version - you have to keep it cool and moist in order to reuse them. There is the fire-dry clay that was in the $25 range that I assume can you don't have to worry about it drying out, but I prefer to save some money for ammo...

Post by **blueorison** » 12 Apr 2011, 18:29

INITIATIVE.

I am speaking to another forum member that is also performing a test, very soon, on household barriers.

I am thinking of making Custom Blue pins for Legits. I been able to obtain a special Blue FN pin for a very legit company...

but it was from a custom batch that is no longer made

Website · Post by **jgreenberg01** » 13 Apr 2011, 17:54

Ok, went to the range and did 3 of the 4 tests because I had an issue with the 9mm. The results are interesting if you can get through the video. If I can keep the clay from drying up I will redo it with the 9mm and SS197 in a couple of weeks. I will also try doubling up on the clay because everything but the ProtecTOR penetrated the whole block.

Here's the video, and it's in 720p if you have the patience to wait for it to load. Oh, and just ignore the opening silliness, it took a looong time to render that scene so I feel obligated to use it :laugh:

eddie · Post by **eddie** » 13 Apr 2011, 18:17

thanks for the video. i enjoyed it....and learned a lot.

Post by **Rapier1772** » 13 Apr 2011, 18:34

Cool vid, looks like fun

Love the "no objects were harmed" :lmao:

Post by **f3rr37** » 13 Apr 2011, 19:33

Very informative, well done!

Post by **panzermk2** » 13 Apr 2011, 19:43

Can Lisa add this to our EA video page on our website?

PainKillaX · Post by **PainKillaX** » 13 Apr 2011, 19:45

Suh-weet! Thank you sir! I really didn't think the .45 would come close to being matched after it was cut up but wow!

So the 5.7 makes an ever so slightly less big hole, but with the benefit of increased capacity and accuracy, faster follow up shots, less weight, and less recoil. FsN, I love you a little more each day.

Zhurdan · Post by **Zhurdan** » 13 Apr 2011, 20:23

Why not shoot it with a 22 mag, side by side with the.5.7 stuff? wouldn't that be a more effective test to show the.haters?

iFire · Post by **iFire** » 13 Apr 2011, 20:24

Like the vid :thumb: The music at the end really made me happy :laugh:

Post by **blueorison** » 13 Apr 2011, 20:38

I don't think on this forum we really care about the haters...

Post by **panzermk2wife** » 13 Apr 2011, 20:58

Zhurdan wrote:Why not shoot it with a 22 mag, side by side with the.5.7 stuff? wouldn't that be a more effective test to show the.haters?

What would be the point? They would say it was fake anyway :facepalm:

Neat video :thumb:

cHaMeLeoN352 · Post by **cHaMeLeoN352** » 13 Apr 2011, 21:17

Wow! Great production :clap:

I am glad to see the Protector did not penetrate all the way through, as I (like many others) worry about overpenetration due to living in close proximity to others.

I also see you are from Jville, I used to live in Gville for 15 years, I Love FL

Thank you for the informative video :thumb:

Website · Post by **jgreenberg01** » 14 Apr 2011, 05:05

panzermk2 wrote:Can Lisa add this to our EA video page on our website?

Absolutely!

Zhurdan wrote:Why not shoot it with a 22 mag, side by side with the.5.7 stuff? wouldn't that be a more effective test to show the.haters?

I would if I owned one. I have a Henry .22lr lever action rifle, and the only .22mag I even considered was the PMR-30, but I've watched it jam in almost every video I've seen it in. No thanks to that... :laugh:

Zhurdan · Post by **Zhurdan** » 14 Apr 2011, 05:20

panzermk2wife wrote:
Zhurdan wrote:Why not shoot it with a 22 mag, side by side with the.5.7 stuff? wouldn't that be a more effective test to show the.haters?
What would be the point? They would say it was fake anyway :facepalm:

Neat video :thumb:

Ha.. probably, but I'd be damn interested in the difference between the SS197 and the 22mag just for shits and giggles.

Post by **panzermk2wife** » 14 Apr 2011, 06:56

jgreenberg01 wrote:
panzermk2 wrote:Can Lisa add this to our EA video page on our website?
Absolutely!

Thanks :thumb:

Reese706 · Post by **Reese706** » 14 Apr 2011, 08:14

What happened to the claims of the Fiveseven giving far superior terminal ballistics than any other pistol caliber? Didn't see that from the video, just like i didn't in the field testing on game. But i'm a troll..for pointing this fact out..lol. Looks likes someones busted Panzer. Wheres the dude now that was talking all that hydrostatic shock mess and its close to a rifle in performance? Since when is slightly less performance than a .45acp hydroshock round close to rifle territory? Or even a 10mm pistol? Its good performance for such a small round..all i'm saying is don't hype this thing up to more than it really is.

Mister Freeze · Post by **Mister Freeze** » 14 Apr 2011, 09:48

ooooohhhh! I feel a smackdown coming! :p :clap:

Post by **panzermk2wife** » 14 Apr 2011, 09:57

No he has sent me emails in the past. I know who he is. Just ignore him.

PainKillaX · Post by **PainKillaX** » 14 Apr 2011, 10:16

The only thing I have to say, since when does a .22mag make a hole .11 inch smaller in diameter than a .45 hollow point?

Reese706 · Post by **Reese706** » 14 Apr 2011, 10:27

PainKillaX wrote:The only thing I have to say, since when does a .22mag make a hole .11 inch smaller in diameter than a .45 hollow point?

Who said anything about .22 mag? We were debating on another post on 5.7 not .22mag.I Never said it was a .22mag. But i also didn't claim, like some on here that it was vastly more of devasting a round than any common Sd round either. In fact i disputed this claim because i have first hand knowledge of how it performed in the field. Then i was called a liar and a troll. Now since the proof is out there the next move is to ignore me because thats what you do when you have egg in your face and can't defend your claims. But anyway i feel vindicated now..i'll move on

Post by **blueorison** » 14 Apr 2011, 12:48

Reese706 wrote:
PainKillaX wrote:The only thing I have to say, since when does a .22mag make a hole .11 inch smaller in diameter than a .45 hollow point?
Who said anything about .22 mag? We were debating on another post on 5.7 not .22mag.I Never said it was a .22mag. But i also didn't claim, like some on here that it was vastly more of devasting a round than any common Sd round either. In fact i disputed this claim because i have first hand knowledge of how it performed in the field. Then i was called a liar and a troll. Now since the proof is out there the next move is to ignore me because thats what you do when you have egg in your face and can't defend your claims. But anyway i feel vindicated now..i'll move on

What proof of you having first hand knowledge of how it performed in the field?
A common SD round can be a .22mag or a .380.
Your only motive seems to be to attack EA. Have you ever shot their ammunition so as to be able to have "first hand" knowledge and actually be educated enough to speak on their rounds?

CenCalSplicer · Post by **CenCalSplicer** » 14 Apr 2011, 13:06

In all fairness I would like to see Reese put his proof out there the way Greenberg put his test out there for us to see. It could prove to be either a learning experience, a random event or complete crap. Like they say, the proof is in the pudding. I was personally impressed with the 5.7's performance into the clay block and can't express my gratitude for greenberg spending his own money on a test like this.

Reese706 · Post by **Reese706** » 14 Apr 2011, 14:36

blueorison wrote:
Reese706 wrote:
PainKillaX wrote:The only thing I have to say, since when does a .22mag make a hole .11 inch smaller in diameter than a .45 hollow point?
Who said anything about .22 mag? We were debating on another post on 5.7 not .22mag.I Never said it was a .22mag. But i also didn't claim, like some on here that it was vastly more of devasting a round than any common Sd round either. In fact i disputed this claim because i have first hand knowledge of how it performed in the field. Then i was called a liar and a troll. Now since the proof is out there the next move is to ignore me because thats what you do when you have egg in your face and can't defend your claims. But anyway i feel vindicated now..i'll move on
What proof of you having first hand knowledge of how it performed in the field?
A common SD round can be a .22mag or a .380.
Your only motive seems to be to attack EA. Have you ever shot their ammunition so as to be able to have "first hand" knowledge and actually be educated enough to speak on their rounds?

First off if my motive was to attack Ea. Why would i give their round ANY credit at all. If you read carefully i said it does pretty good for the size of the cartridge. I dont have a vendetta agaist Ea or the round if so i would have sold my gun a long time ago and not give any credit. Second i own a FSn and have both Fn factory ammo as well as Elite Ammunition ammo. I have no reason to get up here to lie..for what? Third all we have to do is go back to past posts on the other thread where this started and see that all the claims that were made by you and others did not hold up just like i said it wouldnt. So why would i need to prove anything when this video right here on your very own forum proves what i knew all along. If it cant outperform a .45 even in a clay block test . Tell me how it will outperform it in real world? Oh yeah i know the mystical hydrostatic shock theory :lmao:

Prepper · Post by **Prepper** » 14 Apr 2011, 15:14

The video convinced me that I made a good choice going with the FsN that I bought only recently.

Buffman · Post by **Buffman** » 14 Apr 2011, 15:21

You've made claims to not being able to kill an armadillo with one shot, yet we have VIDEO's of single shot FSN kills of big hogs, with even SS197SR if I recall correctly.
I don't think there's any direct way to compare clay to ballistic's gel. Something more or less fun to do. Then again I never claimed it to be superior

To me, I'd have to agree with one of the last articles I read in combat handguns about putting too much emphasis on ballasitic gel results.

I'll pick up some of these blocks this weekend if i get the chance, and will try .22 mag, and maybe some .45 HST

Robar · Post by **Robar** » 14 Apr 2011, 15:33

Real world evidence of the terminal ballistics of any projectile is usually found during an autopsy. Although shooting gel and clay blocks is fun and can give an idea of what you might expect it is, in it's self, not real world. Usually the military is the first to see real world evidence of terminal ballistics to a human body then law enforcement is next. The only problem with that is the military won't usually give up that kind of information and neither will LE. Autopsy photos of this kind are kept as evidence and are not made public. Notice Google doesn't have any autopsy pics of a 5.7 wound.
Here is a decent article that may help explain some thoughts on the effectiveness projectiles.

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/terminal.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **blueorison** » 14 Apr 2011, 15:35

Reese, check your pm.

Mister Freeze · Post by **Mister Freeze** » 14 Apr 2011, 16:32

I offer this:
The clay tests are valid in the absence of high speed photography for gel tests. Because the clay is not elastic, it does not rebound like gel and close the hydrostatic wound cavity.

5.7 vs .45? Given that the wound characteristics are similar, accuracy and capacity are the factors to consider.

besides, you smell weird and your mother dresses you funny. :p

Robar · Post by **Robar** » 14 Apr 2011, 16:36

Mister Freeze wrote:
besides, you smell weird and your mother dresses you funny. :p

Hay, I resemble that remark. :facepalm:

ddouglas · Post by **ddouglas** » 14 Apr 2011, 17:11

I don't think it is necessary or appropriate to smart-ass Reese706. He has a point of view. And since the 5.7 is always compared (mostly by others) to the .22Mag, a test into clay would be a comparative view. To paraphrase someone here, tests on gelatin and clay don't reflect the real world. But there's value in having comparative data, even if it can't be directly applied.

Post by **Rapier1772** » 14 Apr 2011, 17:24

Mister Freeze wrote:besides, you smell weird and your mother dresses you funny. :p

Careful, you know how people get when they think they might be being insulted, even if it is jest.

I haven't seen Reese enough to know what sense of humor to expect :skep:

Personally, I would like to see a clay target of every caliber, just for comparison

Ariac · Post by **Ariac** » 14 Apr 2011, 18:01

I want to see that 9mm test myself, I carry the 124gr +p gold dot myself daily.

Website · Post by **jgreenberg01** » 14 Apr 2011, 18:47

Reese706 wrote:What happened to the claims of the Fiveseven giving far superior terminal ballistics than any other pistol caliber? Didn't see that from the video, just like i didn't in the field testing on game. But i'm a troll..for pointing this fact out..lol. Looks likes someones busted Panzer. Wheres the dude now that was talking all that hydrostatic shock mess and its close to a rifle in performance? Since when is slightly less performance than a .45acp hydroshock round close to rifle territory? Or even a 10mm pistol? Its good performance for such a small round..all i'm saying is don't hype this thing up to more than it really is.

Opinions are like a$$holes: everyone has one. You are certainly welcome to express yours, and I actually thank you for doing so and you are not a troll for doing it. You are, however, acting troll-ish by the way you phrased it - it sounds like you are looking for a fight. Just my opinioin and please coreect me if I am wrong

Ariac wrote:I want to see that 9mm test myself, I carry the 124gr +p gold dot myself daily.

I'm going to go back and do the 9mm as well as SS197 test, but it will take a little time - my next day off is not until at least 4/27.

Post by **panzermk2** » 15 Apr 2011, 10:15

Reese706 wrote:
blueorison wrote:
Reese706 wrote:
PainKillaX wrote:The only thing I have to say, since when does a .22mag make a hole .11 inch smaller in diameter than a .45 hollow point?
Who said anything about .22 mag? We were debating on another post on 5.7 not .22mag.I Never said it was a .22mag. But i also didn't claim, like some on here that it was vastly more of devasting a round than any common Sd round either. In fact i disputed this claim because i have first hand knowledge of how it performed in the field. Then i was called a liar and a troll. Now since the proof is out there the next move is to ignore me because thats what you do when you have egg in your face and can't defend your claims. But anyway i feel vindicated now..i'll move on
What proof of you having first hand knowledge of how it performed in the field?
A common SD round can be a .22mag or a .380.
Your only motive seems to be to attack EA. Have you ever shot their ammunition so as to be able to have "first hand" knowledge and actually be educated enough to speak on their rounds?
First off if my motive was to attack Ea. Why would i give their round ANY credit at all. If you read carefully i said it does pretty good for the size of the cartridge. I dont have a vendetta agaist Ea or the round if so i would have sold my gun a long time ago and not give any credit. Second i own a FSn and have both Fn factory ammo as well as Elite Ammunition ammo. I have no reason to get up here to lie..for what? Third all we have to do is go back to past posts on the other thread where this started and see that all the claims that were made by you and others did not hold up just like i said it wouldnt. So why would i need to prove anything when this video right here on your very own forum proves what i knew all along. If it cant outperform a .45 even in a clay block test . Tell me how it will outperform it in real world? Oh yeah i know the mystical hydrostatic shock theory :lmao:

Some time today Brass fetcher Ballistic labs will be putting up the in depth analysis of our S4M on THEIR website. Side by side comparison to the Federal 230 HS. Our S4m EXCEEDED the performance of the 45acp round.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page1293.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SO yes my claims have been held up unlike yours. Still waiting on at least a photoshop fake pic from you concerning the failure you had of the 5.7x28.

DarkWater · Post by **DarkWater** » 16 Apr 2011, 06:04

one thing some folks seem to tend to forget, clay does not equal gel. yes it's great for some rough comparisons, but you can hardly say that it it's simailr. 10 or 20% gel is mostly water (well I would guess 80 or 90% water..DUH)....the clay has very little water in it (quick google search foudn one link that satted 19-22.5%), thus hydrostatic shock impact will be very different in clay. I would also think the density of clay is quite different...now, no gel doesn't equal human flesh either, but it probably approximates it much better than clay would....(otherwise I think more people would use clay...). Muscle tissue contains 70-75%...fat on the other hand only ~ 10% (and I would speculate a bullet woudl travel further through fat than muscle...so how the water is restrained matters as well...)

still, for a gross comparison, I think the clay blocks are a neat way to compare different rounds, but we should be careful to draw conclusions, especially if the performance is not vastly different. I'm sure it would be possibe to design rounds that do "max" damage to a clay body, but those woudl probably perform equally well in a gel or human body...

PainKillaX · Post by **PainKillaX** » 17 Apr 2011, 15:00

If you do this again, would you mind filling the blocks with water or something after you shoot but before you cut so we can see the volume of the wound channel. Just because the wounds were similar in diameter at the widest point doesn't mean they displaced the same amount of material is my thinking.

ddouglas · Post by **ddouglas** » 17 Apr 2011, 15:43

That's asking a lot, PainKilla. Can't you simply use the measurements provided together with your innate sense of spatial scale and the shape of cavity to make a guess at the volume? I can't see any real benefit to going through all that extra effort to address this.

PainKillaX · Post by **PainKillaX** » 17 Apr 2011, 16:25

I could...I just like seeing more numbers

Website · Post by **jgreenberg01** » 17 Apr 2011, 16:57

I suppose I could try it by plugging up any exit holes and filling the void prior to slicing it open. I could pour it out and measure how much water there was for comparison. I'm not sure if it would be useful, but it would be interesting... and messy. Very messy.

PainKillaX · Post by **PainKillaX** » 17 Apr 2011, 17:08

True. It's definitely added work and possibly unnecessary, just something I thought of. Anyway, thanks for the excellent vids!

fzr confused · Post by **fzr confused** » 18 Apr 2011, 09:16

Since both the S5 and 45 exited, you can't measure the volume becuase they both were still going. Then you would have the penetration to take into account.

My next thought was, just because the clay shows the cavity bein only 5", doesnt mean that was it either. The clay expanded when hit with all the rounds, and then returned to resting shape. Getting a high speed camera here would help, because the clay pretty much shrinks back down so the S5 might actually cause a larger wound channel. At least that is my thought.

Post by **panzermk2** » 18 Apr 2011, 09:37

Also keep in mind with the S5 there where 3 different wound channels not jut one and that piece was in the block.

ShockedNKansas · Post by **ShockedNKansas** » 18 Apr 2011, 12:46

jgreenberg01,

Thanks a lot for your effort in what was a very entertaining video. You looked like you had a lot of fun producing it. Also very professional btw, this doesn't look like your first effort in editing video.

Website · Post by **jgreenberg01** » 18 Apr 2011, 15:24

Thanks Shocked... it was fun... shooting stuff is ALWAYS fun!!!

And yes, I've been playing around with video editing software for a while, I'm trying to put these things together in an entertaining way that will get people to actually sit through it.

ShockedNKansas · Post by **ShockedNKansas** » 18 Apr 2011, 15:58

jgreenberg01 wrote:Thanks Shocked... it was fun... shooting stuff is ALWAYS fun!!!

And yes, I've been playing around with video editing software for a while, I'm trying to put these things together in an entertaining way that will get people to actually sit through it.

Cut to a hot babe every now and then and you've got me for at least 30mins (I'll even sit through commercials).

Website · Post by **jgreenberg01** » 18 Apr 2011, 16:09

ShockedNKansas wrote:
jgreenberg01 wrote:Thanks Shocked... it was fun... shooting stuff is ALWAYS fun!!!

And yes, I've been playing around with video editing software for a while, I'm trying to put these things together in an entertaining way that will get people to actually sit through it.
Cut to a hot babe every now and then and you've got me for at least 30mins (I'll even sit through commercials).

I don't know if you saw my Gun Porn Video (viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10271&hilit=gun+porn) or not, but I have already lined up a couple of girls (very cute ones) to participate. It's just a matter of scheduling to get it done

...

Post by **panzermk2wife** » 18 Apr 2011, 18:58

:facepalm:

Post by **Rapier1772** » 18 Apr 2011, 19:39

Awwwww. See what you did greenberg, you made Lisa sad. You should have given her top billing for your next vid

Post by **panzermk2wife** » 18 Apr 2011, 19:49

Rapier1772 wrote:Awwwww. See what you did greenberg, you made Lisa sad. You should have given her top billing for your next vid

No, that's alright I'll stick to my mustang pics

Post by **Rapier1772** » 18 Apr 2011, 19:56

Yeah yeah, still waiting to see the original mustang pic :drool:

Post by **panzermk2wife** » 18 Apr 2011, 20:04

Rapier1772 wrote:Yeah yeah, still waiting to see the original mustang pic :drool:

Keep waiting mister :laugh:

It will not show up again if some people know what's good for them :guns:

/insert evil laugh/

Website · Post by **jgreenberg01** » 19 Apr 2011, 03:49

Lisa, you are certainly invited, but I am sure you will be the only gal there that can actually shoot... :lmao:

Gramaton Cleric · Post by **Gramaton Cleric** » 19 Apr 2011, 05:24

awesome vid

Gramaton Cleric · Post by **Gramaton Cleric** » 19 Apr 2011, 05:53

jgreenberg01 wrote:
ShockedNKansas wrote:
jgreenberg01 wrote:Thanks Shocked... it was fun... shooting stuff is ALWAYS fun!!!

And yes, I've been playing around with video editing software for a while, I'm trying to put these things together in an entertaining way that will get people to actually sit through it.
Cut to a hot babe every now and then and you've got me for at least 30mins (I'll even sit through commercials).
I don't know if you saw my Gun Porn Video (viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10271&hilit=gun+porn) or not, but I have already lined up a couple of girls (very cute ones) to participate. It's just a matter of scheduling to get it done ...

Well sir that's some good photography! WOW :clap: looking forword to more from you. lol But back on topic, my opinion is this, I believe the Five Seven is a tool in a tool box of all the tools you'll ever need. For me its my #1 go to tool. I know I'd never want to be in front of it! That even goes for the .22! However, I know that I haven't looked back since purchasing the Five Seven. And damn the numbers, get shot by it and then talk s*&%................noted

murphies_finest · Post by **murphies_finest** » 19 Apr 2011, 06:22

to me it does not matter what said rounds can and can not do, as stated in another thread I keep the 9mm the ar and the 90 by my nightstand. I guarantee no matter what the situation or the location if a person hears shot going down range most folks will run and seek cover. as a forum mebers signature used to say "the jawbone of an ass is still a formidable weapon today as it was in biblical times" or something to that effect.

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