10mm ammo for SD

fzr confused · Post by **fzr confused** » 26 Oct 2010, 13:55

i have an EAA Witness Match with the 4.75" barrel and was wondering which ammo that i currently have would be "best" for SD. i know any of these rounds will stop a BG and all but was just looking for opinions. the current SD rounds i have are:

double tap 150gr jhp @ 1475fps
double tap 165gr jhp @ 1425fps
buffalo bore 180gr jhc @ 1350fps

now in the FsN light and fast is where its at pretty much, but with the 10mm, would the 150 maybe go "too deep" and be more over penetration? is the 4.75" barrel long enough to fully stabilize the 180gr? what is a jacketed hollow core bullet, is it just another name for a jhp?

i know EA makes some nice 10mm rounds, and i will be placing an order from them shortly, once the T6 is available :thumb:

SpaceCoyote · Post by **SpaceCoyote** » 26 Oct 2010, 15:53

I wouldn't spend too much time splitting hairs about over penetration and terminal ballistics of it. I think any of the three will do the trick.

I would buy a few boxes of each make sure they all function reliably. The tanfo witness has a pretty good reputation for reliability, but any semi auto can be fickle with hollow point or flat nose bullets. If all three function reliably then I would pick the most accurate of the three.

If you were looking for some in depth discussion of the terminal ballistics of the different bullet I'm sorry. I just see too many people go out and buy some expensive HP ammo for their SD handgun without even making sure it functions in their pistol. I'd rather have fmj ball ammo in my SD handgun and know it will work smoothly when I need it too. ( I don't have FMJ in my SD handgun, just making a point)

Not saying you're one of "those guys", but just thought I'd add my $0.02.

fzr confused · Post by **fzr confused** » 26 Oct 2010, 16:01

i have 150-200 rounds of each of the above, but have not shot any of them yet, the gun is still a virgin

.

SpaceCoyote · Post by **SpaceCoyote** » 26 Oct 2010, 16:38

:facepalm: Get out there and blast em!

I have to admit I totally have a crush on all cz75 variants.

I'm right handed, but left-eye dominant, so I shoot left-handed. I really wanted a cz85 ("ambi" cz75) for a long time, then found out that the mag catch is neither ambi or even reversible. From what I've read all the tanfo witness have a reversible mag catch, so now the witness (in 9mm) is at the top of my pistol wish list. And this coming from a guy who my friends call a "CZ fanboy"

Post by **blueorison** » 26 Oct 2010, 16:48

SpaceCoyote wrote::facepalm: Get out there and blast em!

I have to admit I totally have a crush on all cz75 variants.

I'm right handed, but left-eye dominant, so I shoot left-handed. I really wanted a cz85 ("ambi" cz75) for a long time, then found out that the mag catch is neither ambi or even reversible. From what I've read all the tanfo witness have a reversible mag catch, so now the witness (in 9mm) is at the top of my pistol wish list. And this coming from a guy who my friends call a "CZ fanboy"

Haha... you know, usually if someone sees Magpul or FN gear that I'm using they try to label me an "FN fanboy" etc. and it annoys me because of their ignorance.

However, if someone labels me a CZ fanboy, I must admit, it wouldn't bother me much.

Can't blame you, I love all CZ 75 variants, also. I also love their CZ85 and the .45.

But all I have to say is WTF?!

What does eye-dominance have to do with pistol shooting?! You should have both eyes open and only handedness defines lefty or righty controls, not eye-dominance! What's goin on here?

Post by **Rapier1772** » 26 Oct 2010, 17:05

blueorison wrote:What does eye-dominance have to do with pistol shooting?! You should have both eyes open and only handedness defines lefty or righty controls, not eye-dominance! What's goin on here?

That's different from what I was taught blue (in the Iowa CCW course). I am not cross eye dominate so I didn't really listen to that part but I know he gave some kind of instruction on it.

SpaceCoyote · Post by **SpaceCoyote** » 26 Oct 2010, 17:26

I guess for close range, rapid point-and-shoot type defensive shooting it wouldn't matter. "Instinctive shooting" as they call it in archery. Also eye dominance is irrelevant UNLESS shooting with both eyes open. Anyone could shoot with the cross-dominant eye if they close the other one. Which is why most people don't even realize their cross dominant until they try shooting with both eyes open.

If using the sights with both eyes open, when you look down the sight you will be lining the pistol up with your dominant eye.
example - when a right-handed, right eye-dominant person raises the pistol in a weaver fashion it naturally lines up with the dominant eye.

If a left eye dominant shooter holds a pistol in the right hand, they will hold their arm across their body to line it up with the left eye. I can shoot decently this way, but much better if I just shoot left handed as everything just aligns perfectly.

I must admit though... I don't throw sub-moa rocks.

I'm going to be in Austin tomorrow. Maybe we can discuss this further over lunch @ Amaya's Taco Village? my treat

Post by **blueorison** » 26 Oct 2010, 19:17

Rapier1772 wrote:
blueorison wrote:What does eye-dominance have to do with pistol shooting?! You should have both eyes open and only handedness defines lefty or righty controls, not eye-dominance! What's goin on here?
That's different from what I was taught blue (in the Iowa CCW course). I am not cross eye dominate so I didn't really listen to that part but I know he gave some kind of instruction on it.

Not at all, sir. I do shoot practical matches, but I also do NRA pistol competitions where it's all accuracy, not speed or practicality. In those I also shoot with both eyes open. I am cross-dominant; left eye dominant but right handed. In addition, I also shoot Hipower with irons, using my right hand and right eye (weak eye). You know how far Hipower goes out to and this should signal something.

You can listen to whoever you'll like, but I'll outline it for you. The main effect you'll have to deal with shooting with your weak eye is fatigue. They call it dominance for a reason; it is easier to focus with your dominant eye.

However, as some of you may know, I shoot these Hipower matches with IRONS with my WEAK eye. I capitalize both words because if you use a scope, eye dominance doesn't quite matter at all, the glass helps you focus in. Long range rifle with irons does include much influence with eye dominance such that using your strong hand vs your strong eye if you're cross dominant like me causes fatigue on your weak eye you're using and thus it is generally looked-down upon by what I call the "NRA crowd".

These people being inclusive of the Fudds and shooters that are ingrained in their ways, and probably have never heard of the 5.7. I meet people that have never heard of the 5.7 monthly.

To sum it up, I have no problem using my weak eye and neither should most. It's a matter of TRAINING. I always emphasize training. You can speak to national level shooters and they will tell you the same. Training overcomes many physical and mental issues.

SpaceCoyote wrote:I guess for close range, rapid point-and-shoot type defensive shooting it wouldn't matter. "Instinctive shooting" as they call it in archery. Also eye dominance is irrelevant UNLESS shooting with both eyes open. Anyone could shoot with the cross-dominant eye if they close the other one. Which is why most people don't even realize their cross dominant until they try shooting with both eyes open.

If using the sights with both eyes open, when you look down the sight you will be lining the pistol up with your dominant eye.
example - when a right-handed, right eye-dominant person raises the pistol in a weaver fashion it naturally lines up with the dominant eye.

If a left eye dominant shooter holds a pistol in the right hand, they will hold their arm across their body to line it up with the left eye. I can shoot decently this way, but much better if I just shoot left handed as everything just aligns perfectly.

I must admit though... I don't throw sub-moa rocks.

I'm going to be in Austin tomorrow. Maybe we can discuss this further over lunch @ Amaya's Taco Village? my treat

Space, not at all.

When point-shooting I use both hands and both eyes and no one-sided-dominant grip/stance. I don't know all the technical tactical names for the stances and could not tell you how a weaver stance looked like if you pointed a gun at my head. However, I can show you how I train and the instinctive CCW reactive stances I teach my students in my UT Squad and you'll realize all that eye-dominance is fluff and doesn't matter one-bit.

Also, all that outlining of lining up the pistol to eye sounds like some NRA Instructor nonsense. Unless you are a rare case and have extreme dominance in one eye (in which case I recommend lasik), you should be opening both eyes to shoot. I can show you how tomorrow, if you'd like. I'll probably skip my first physics class and will be free for early lunch.

Let me know, I'll PM you my number.

fatherfoof · Post by **fatherfoof** » 27 Oct 2010, 06:55

Is that the short version Blue? I close my eyes and think it into the target while Jay chants from the Midrash... Perhaps that's why the other guy's target has my rounds in his 10 ring.

Hobknob · Post by **Hobknob** » 27 Oct 2010, 07:43

I'm right eye dominant, but I sometimes use the left just for practice. If using isosceles, it's not a big change, but when shooting weaver, it is a bit more tricky unless I switch to a left-handed stance.

If you just want to have fun, see how well you can do by deliberately bringing up a double image and then make the sight picture symmetric about the aim point so that technically neither eye is lined up with the sights (unless you happen to have a third eye in the middle of your brow). Not terribly practical, but an interesting exercise...

If doing really long shots with irons, I often use my left eye because it has slightly better vision.
Train to use either...you never know when one might go missing

...btw, I think any of the three 10mm SD options you've got would do the trick, but my personal bias would be for the 165gr ones.

Post by **blueorison** » 27 Oct 2010, 09:29

fatherfoof wrote:Is that the short version Blue? I close my eyes and think it into the target while Jay chants from the Midrash... Perhaps that's why the other guy's target has my rounds in his 10 ring.

Is there ever a short version with me, father? haha

I seem to create another thread from a reply. Apologies for my long windedness!

Post by **jmz5** » 27 Oct 2010, 11:22

I see college hasn't taught Blue the art of shorthand! Haha!

My handwriting got progressively worse and shorter as the years progressed.

Post by **f3rr37** » 27 Oct 2010, 11:25

jmz5 wrote:I see college hasn't taught Blue the art of shorthand! Haha!

My handwriting got progressively worse and shorter as the years progressed.

My grammar and spelling when writing has gotten worse, and I no longer use 500 words to explain things that can be done in 5. :laugh:

Post by **blueorison** » 27 Oct 2010, 11:35

f3rr37 wrote:
jmz5 wrote:I see college hasn't taught Blue the art of shorthand! Haha!

My handwriting got progressively worse and shorter as the years progressed.
My grammar and spelling when writing has gotten worse, and I no longer use 500 words to explain things that can be done in 5. :laugh:

I just want to spread knowledge, that's all! I mean, you can't blame me that people have really short replies because that's pretty much all they know to say or rehash some advice they've/we've heard on the forums! I feel like originality has been lost, along with firsthand data gathering.

Well, I used to be short-winded, then people would completely misunderstand me and get mad, so now I have to include disclaimers for everything. Seemingly no one gets my one or two worded replies such as

"Kimber-guy"

"Tactifag"

"Got skill?"

"Just buy more gear"

I'm just so misunderstood, you know

SHEEPDOG · Post by **SHEEPDOG** » 27 Oct 2010, 13:51

fzr confused wrote:i have an EAA Witness Match with the 4.75" barrel and was wondering which ammo that i currently have would be "best" for SD. i know any of these rounds will stop a BG and all but was just looking for opinions. the current SD rounds i have are:

double tap 150gr jhp @ 1475fps
double tap 165gr jhp @ 1425fps
buffalo bore 180gr jhc @ 1350fps

now in the FsN light and fast is where its at pretty much, but with the 10mm, would the 150 maybe go "too deep" and be more over penetration? is the 4.75" barrel long enough to fully stabilize the 180gr? what is a jacketed hollow core bullet, is it just another name for a jhp?

i know EA makes some nice 10mm rounds, and i will be placing an order from them shortly, once the T6 is available :thumb:

Back to the topic.

I love the double tap 135gr jhp @ 1600fps 767 ft.lbs. Nothing beats firepower and horsepower!

Post by **panzermk2** » 27 Oct 2010, 17:56

swe123 wrote: Back to the topic.

I love the double tap 135gr jhp @ 1600fps 767 ft.lbs. Nothing beats firepower and horsepower!

Run that DT over a chronoy.

SHEEPDOG · Post by **SHEEPDOG** » 27 Oct 2010, 18:49

I love your 165 & 200s too. I don't have a Chrony. I don't reload. Thats what ammo manufacturers are for. :thumb:
I can't wait to try out your 308s in my tac2.

Post by **f3rr37** » 27 Oct 2010, 19:35

swe123 wrote:I love your 165 & 200s too. I don't have a Chrony. I don't reload. Thats what ammo manufacturers are for. :thumb:
I can't wait to try out your 308s in my tac2.

Mfg's tend to exaggerate their velocities by using longer and/or test barrels.

Post by **panzermk2** » 27 Oct 2010, 20:43

I have been a DT customer back when Mike only had a few 10mm full power loadings. That's how he started. About the time he switched from Black boxes with blue logo to white boxes all of his 10mm dropped at least 300fps. This is why EA started selling 10mm. I figured if I was going to make real full house 10mm for my self I might as well sell it.

fzr confused · Post by **fzr confused** » 28 Oct 2010, 02:54

My DT ammo is black box with blue logo, did they switch back? I just bought it recently from midway and most of it was on back order so I would assume it's not "old stock"???

Post by **panzermk2** » 28 Oct 2010, 07:00

They may have switched back box wise. I belong to the largest 10mm forum out there and there are a great many folkes pissed at just how slow DT chronographs out. Besides EA there is at least one new player in the 10mm segment selling full house 10mm.

fzr confused · Post by **fzr confused** » 28 Oct 2010, 07:14

Yea I read a lot of people saying similar things, but it's still better than the cheap Remington stuff I got too, right?

Post by **panzermk2** » 28 Oct 2010, 11:44

fzr confused wrote:Yea I read a lot of people saying similar things, but it's still better than the cheap Remington stuff I got too, right?

Your paying custom ammo prices and not getting it.

I plan on expanding our 10mm line. I just did a custom run of solid copper magtech Solid Copper Hollow Point 130gr bullets 10mm rounds.

Bullets are expensive but man the perform.

Llagoud · Post by **Llagoud** » 28 Oct 2010, 11:46

panzermk2 wrote:
fzr confused wrote:Yea I read a lot of people saying similar things, but it's still better than the cheap Remington stuff I got too, right?

Your paying custom ammo prices and not getting it.

I plan on expanding our 10mm line. I just did a custom run of solid copper magtech Solid Copper Hollow Point 130gr bullets 10mm rounds.

Bullets are expensive but man the perform.

Hook a brother up? :laugh:

Post by **panzermk2** » 28 Oct 2010, 12:10

I did, I can't help you shot it already.

I was getting 1350fps out of a 3.2 inch barreled compact auto.

Llagoud · Post by **Llagoud** » 28 Oct 2010, 12:32

panzermk2 wrote:I did, I can't help you shot it already.

I was getting 1350fps out of a 3.2 inch barreled compact auto.

Ah.......the first dose free....then the addiction :lmao:

Post by **panzermk2** » 28 Oct 2010, 15:08

Llagoud wrote:
panzermk2 wrote:I did, I can't help you shot it already.

I was getting 1350fps out of a 3.2 inch barreled compact auto.

Ah.......the first dose free....then the addiction :lmao:

Of course!

fzr confused · Post by **fzr confused** » 28 Oct 2010, 17:13

so would you recommend the BB's over the DT's?

SHEEPDOG · Post by **SHEEPDOG** » 28 Oct 2010, 17:53

panzermk2 wrote:
fzr confused wrote:Yea I read a lot of people saying similar things, but it's still better than the cheap Remington stuff I got too, right?

Your paying custom ammo prices and not getting it.

I plan on expanding our 10mm line. I just did a custom run of solid copper magtech Solid Copper Hollow Point 130gr bullets 10mm rounds.

Bullets are expensive but man the perform.

And thanks for adding 10mm to your line. looking forward to new loads.

fatherfoof · Post by **fatherfoof** » 29 Oct 2010, 12:18

While the FBI makes me cry over ruining the perfect load they created, they still have the ultimate playtoys. In an office just north of Houston they have some MP5s in 10mm. Wouldn't be much venison left, but I'd love to sit under a Maine fir tree with one waiting for Bambi to stroll by. That is my ultimate fantasy. Waterskiing on the moon is more likely...

FiveseveNForum.com

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