Why restricted ammo?

Elite Ammunition, makers of custom 5.7x28 ammunition.

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Why restricted ammo?

Post by gryphon » 30 Jan 2012, 01:14

I finally got around to reading the email EA sent me a few days ago.
Current Law Enforcement/Military Personnel, we have a new and improved round for you as well. This section of our website is password protected.
Since whatever you are offering LEOs isn't restricted by law, why are you not offering whatever it is to civilians as well? Why would you restrict it to LEOs only?

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Re: Why restricted ammo?

Post by Cyberfly » 30 Jan 2012, 06:08

If I may?
Just because 'the letter of the law' restrictions of BATFE may not make something AP, Jay has done extensive testing with ALL of his ammunition. He knows the capabilities of his ammunition and neither he, nor Lisa, wants this particular ammunition falling into the hands of anybody other than trained LE/Military personnel.
Its pretty much as simple as that.
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Re: Why restricted ammo?

Post by firestorm248 » 30 Jan 2012, 06:20

I have seen a few pics on the web on some of the capabilities of Jays restricted ammo and it’s not something I would want normal people having access to. I, for one and glad he restricts certain ammo.

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Re: Why restricted ammo?

Post by flyingirish04 » 30 Jan 2012, 06:39

To the OP:

It all has to do with compliance liability. If the BATFE wasn't such aholes about everything, and you are a small business, you could market them to everyone. BUT, that isn't the case and EA can't afford to go to court every time the BATFE decides to kick in their door.

And before you say 'that won't happen!'. Well, it can, and it did.

Not ideal but until that out of control entity is put in its place, EA can't risk their livelihood.
Last edited by flyingirish04 on 30 Jan 2012, 09:06, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why restricted ammo?

Post by flyingirish04 » 30 Jan 2012, 06:44

firestorm248 wrote:I have seen a few pics on the web on some of the capabilities of Jays restricted ammo and it’s not something I would want normal people having access to. I, for one and glad he restricts certain ammo.

I don't subscribe to this elitist crap. Normal people having it is fine. It all has to do with the BATFE. If Jay and Lisa knew that their ammo was going to normal law abiding citizens, they would be fine.

Be careful spouting things that are simplely unAmerican and police state minded.

I think anyone glad ammo is restricted is a dangerous person to have in the military and in LE. I think you should be sad that a govt agency is so out of control that EA has to be out of this world careful on who they sell to.
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Re: Why restricted ammo?

Post by firestorm248 » 30 Jan 2012, 07:07

sigh...to each their own irish. We can agree to disagree on some of what you just said.

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Re: Why restricted ammo?

Post by flyingirish04 » 30 Jan 2012, 08:33

Sigh all you want, and as pretentiously as you want. Not really to each their own. You aren't going to make hazardous claims and just get off that easily. :facepalm:

The mindset you are coming from is the EXACT mindset that BATFE has. Your opinion, and theirs, are one in the same: Civilians right to arms and ammo need to be limited as much as possible. In fact you do EA a disservice by spouting what you posted. A BIG one. Not only that, you defend the deploreable actions they took on EA but trying to justify what you post.

EA has to comply, it is a sad thing that they do. But they do. Your attitude celebrates that they do. Kinda messed up, and definitely not liberty loving. I urge you to re-evaluate as an American who has served here in peacetime and abroad in combat, and understands the freedoms and liberties all of us that served (and still serve)protected, instead of applauding their limitation.

This is a forum, we are allowed to disagree. But I am not going to chalk your nonsense belief as "to each their own". I call it fascistic and dangerous. I know you don't intend to be that way, but that is how it all starts. Sorry, this is a pro-2nd Amendment forum. Your views in this particular instance are simply not. Therefore, I will point that out, give you some grief over them, in the hopes you re-evaluate as a smart, liberty loving guy I think you are. If not, well there is always the brady bunch for you.

EA on the other hand is just trying to keep their business running and is held hostage by the BATFE and all the liberal idiots that could bring legal action against them. That is a reality they have to live with. No fault on them at all, because they aren't taking the initiative to go out on a public forum and applaud those regulations that hamper them, like you are.
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Re: Why restricted ammo?

Post by firestorm248 » 30 Jan 2012, 10:04

Ok Irish, first my mindset is not that of the ATF, I don’t think we should limit ammo and firearms to the furthest extent possible. The ATF is retarded and inconsistent, in fact there are many lawsuits even some legislation being proposed to force them to be more consistent with their rulings. I firmly believe what the ATF did to EA was wrong and should never of happened. I mean no disservice to EA Irish and I have sent support to them in their ATF fight and purchased lots of ammo from them and even have my FsN getting accurized right now. If you would like to discuss this more in pm we can and be off EAs board. :)

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Re: Why restricted ammo?

Post by flyingirish04 » 30 Jan 2012, 10:08

I will not hide things via pms, this is a forum. Plus I feel it is healthy to air everything else out in the open.

I am merely pointing out that by claiming that restriction of ammo to civilians makes you happy, you are playing into the hands of gun grabbers and the BATFE policies that are meant to creap in little by little to infringe upon constitutional rights. You made that statement.

You may think what you said has nothing to do with the BATFE frame of mind, but you are wrong. Objectively so. In fact, it reinforces their position. It also reinforces the brady bunches position. They say, "look at firestorm, he is a veteran, he is a Military Security Forces guy, and he says people shouldn't have certain types of ammo". It is that black and white. It is that simple.

I am not trying to be incinderary, I am merely trying to offer some much needed perspective. You aren't alone. It is a govt minded mentality, ingrained in too many vets and LEOs, and it is unfortunate. You want to help EA, place the blame on the BATFE, and refrain from making divisive statements on ammo ownership. It only gets people's 'irish' :D up for EA if they feel they are restricting it out of personal belief, when it is about preservation.
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Re: Why restricted ammo?

Post by firestorm248 » 30 Jan 2012, 10:33

This is what I was talking about in the political section Irish, you have two sides here that are pretty much black and white, the no restrictions at all on anything, own a rocket launcher if you want side and the restrict guns so much you can’t even own a toy gun side. If I sit somewhere in the middle-ish on the pro gun side, does this make me just as bad as the anti gun idiots out there?

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Re: Why restricted ammo?

Post by panzermk2 » 30 Jan 2012, 10:36

Don't forget that the ATF also makes up it's rules as it goes along. There is a line in the 68GAC that states, "Designed to be AP". This line is in the paragraph above what can be or is considered AP.

The argument could easily be made that since we from the outset designed it to be AP then it is considered AP by the 68GAC.

Not wanting to deal with this BS again and another year of court battles with the ATF we are restricting that round to properly accredited people.
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Re: Why restricted ammo?

Post by flyingirish04 » 30 Jan 2012, 10:41

Firestorm, you're again using hyperbole like the gun grabbers. Rocket launchers are DDs, and there is a process for civilians to own. We are talking about ammo. And you fail to acknowledge the fact that the reason they are restricted is because of an attitude just like you thinking that because you are of a certain group, only you should have access. That is a slippery slope to be on.

You must realize the second and third order effects of your attitude. If you said "I am saddened that Lisa and Jay have to be careful, but thankful they are because they are still in business to make great stuff" I am fine with that.

But you said "I am glad they restrict the ammo" That is a major problem. And in the end you aren't sitting anywhere near the pro gun camp with that attitude because it allows for the attitude that enables the jackbooted thug govt agency to act like it does.
Last edited by flyingirish04 on 30 Jan 2012, 10:45, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Why restricted ammo?

Post by flyingirish04 » 30 Jan 2012, 10:42

panzermk2 wrote:Don't forget that the ATF also makes up it's rules as it goes along. There is a line in the 68GAC that states, "Designed to be AP". This line is in the paragraph above what can be or is considered AP.

The argument could easily be made that since we from the outset designed it to be AP then it is considered AP by the 68GAC.

Not wanting to deal with this BS again and another year of court battles with the ATF we are restricting that round to properly accredited people.

Yep. And If I were you, I would do the same thing from a business protection stand point. Sorry for your troubles. It really is a shame the bureaucrats in govt have the attitude they do.
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Re: Why restricted ammo?

Post by firestorm248 » 30 Jan 2012, 11:02

Irish, you act as if I am on a pedestal high above waving rounds saying na na na I can have them and you can’t. I never made such a claim and have not seen anything besides seeing a few pics of results. As for the generalization I am making a point that it seems in your eyes if I am not completely pro letting everyone carry whatever ammo they want, I am a anti second amendment, anti gun nutcase.

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Re: Why restricted ammo?

Post by flyingirish04 » 30 Jan 2012, 11:23

I will take that as admitting that what you first posted was foolish then. It happens. Quit equivocating, quit with the stupid hyperbole. It isn't necessary. And you aren't middle of the road for posting it. You seem to be refuting your first post now. Good for you. Would be better to say, "you're right, I shouldn't have posted it that way, sorry, my bad", but whatever.

As far as how I am acting, it is simple. I am acting as if someone applauded the fact that EA was restricting ammo and saying they do it because it is dangerous for anyone else to own. To do so is to applaud the real reasons why they have to restrict it, because of govt harrassment. Pretty simple. It was a bonehead statement. I have made some in the past for sure. :cya:
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Re: Why restricted ammo?

Post by firestorm248 » 30 Jan 2012, 11:38

Yes Irish, I posted what I posted and I am not retreating from what I posted that “certain” ammo should be restricted. Am I saying all ammo should be? No…am I saying that most ammo should be?...No. I am saying that certain ammo should be. If this is inflammatory be in an open forum then I am sorry, I did invite you to pm to discuss it. Not to hide but to have a friendly discussion about our differences on the issue without clogging EAs board.

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Re: Why restricted ammo?

Post by flyingirish04 » 30 Jan 2012, 12:00

Stop. I never said you said all ammo should be. Quit it. You are just trying to save face by mischaracterizing my posts. Another reason why I want this in the open forum. You said 'normal people' shouldn't own certain types of ammo, that is saying you are above the 'normal people' (your words mind you) as a vet or LEO. That is elitist, that is wrong. Where do you draw the line? What makes one type more harmful over another in your mind? Who are you to decide?

Should 'normal' people not own certain types of guns and instead have them restricted to LEOs and military only?? It is the same thing essentially. THe linkage in rationale is exactly what gun grabbers use. You aren't saying it, but you are using the same logic.

And certain ammo should not be restricted. There is no reason why it should. Law abiding citizens should have access to all types of small arms ammo, and companies should be held harmless for supplying it. Believing anything less puts you in favor of what the BATFE is doing. It justifies the existance of an organization that shouldn't. That isn't extremist, that is NORMAL.

EA has to do what it is doing to save their business, and they should not be in that position. THAT IS THE POINT.

Stick to supporting EA and stop offering your centrally plan views on what lawful citizens should or shouldn't own, and we will have no problems. :cya:
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Re: Why restricted ammo?

Post by firestorm248 » 30 Jan 2012, 12:15

flyingirish04 wrote:I never said you said all ammo should be. Quit it.
I never said you did
flyingirish04 wrote:You are just trying to save face by mischaracterizing my posts. Another reason why I want this in the open forum.
If we are in a pm who would I have to save face too?
flyingirish04 wrote: And certain ammo should not be. There is no reason why it should.
This is where we can agree to disagree on the matter.
flyingirish04 wrote:Believing anything less puts you in conflict with the constitution.
It’s real easy for people today, right or wrong to claim what people long dead were thinking when they wrote something. To quote my constitutional law book “The courts have ruled that this is not an absolute right” Your interpretation of the constitution is one of many.

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Re: Why restricted ammo?

Post by fd57 » 30 Jan 2012, 12:25

flyingirish04 wrote: And certain ammo should not be restricted. There is no reason why it should. Law abiding citizens should have access to all types of small arms ammo, and companies should be held harmless for supplying it. Believing anything less puts you in favor of what the BATFE is doing. It justifies the existance of an organization that shouldn't. That isn't extremist, that is NORMAL.
Well the great thing about ammunition is that anyone, with the required components, can make their own. So if a manufacturer has a policy prohibiting sales of their ammo or a load of their ammo to everyone this doesn't stop anyone else from making that same load for themselves or available to others.

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Re: Why restricted ammo?

Post by firestorm248 » 30 Jan 2012, 12:29

You make it impossible to quote correctly and answer question when you edit your posts Irish.

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