Communication With Reps Regarding DHS Purchase of Ammo

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ddouglas
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Communication With Reps Regarding DHS Purchase of Ammo

Post by ddouglas » 18 May 2012, 07:34

As was discussed here, the DHS has placed a purchase order with ATK for 450 million rounds of .40Cal hollow-point ammo. Since the Geneva Conventions prohibit hollow-point bullets are in military warfare and since DHS is a domestic agency, like many of you I wondered why DHS needed 450 million rounds of ammo. About three weeks ago, I sent emails to my two Senators, Ron Wyden (D) and Jeff Merkley (D) and my Representative, Greg Walden (R) asking them "why?". "What is DHS's intended use of 450 million rounds of .40Cal HP ammo?", I asked them. I did not receive replies from Wyden or Walden, but Merkley sent me this:

"Dear Dennis,

Thank you for contacting my office. I appreciate hearing from you regarding your views about the amounts of ammunition that the Department of Homeland Security has.

The views of Oregonians are very important to my work in the U.S. Senate. Please know that I will keep your thoughts in mind and encourage you to be in touch. Please do not hesitate to contact me again to express your views on this or any other issue.

Additionally, if you would like to know more about my work in the Senate and positions on other important topics, please go to my website, http://merkley.senate.gov/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, to sign up for my e-newsletter updates or to email me directly.


All my best,

Jeffrey A. Merkley
United States Senator"

With the lack of replies from two, and the response from Merkley, do you think we are being well-served by our elected representatives? Do you think Merkley in any way addressed my question? I think we are being conned by these guys and they have no intention of providing forthright answers to legitimate questions. To me, tjhis confirms that we are in deep doodoo and that it's going to get deeper real soon.

Then I came across this thread: http://www.infowars.com/homeland-securi ... an-people/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What's your take on what's going on?

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Rapier1772
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Re: Communication With Reps Regarding DHS Purchase of Ammo

Post by Rapier1772 » 18 May 2012, 08:17

Obviously the question wasn't answered, it barely addressed. I think it shows our reps don't even know what it going on.


As for what we should do, the same thing they did. Stock up on ammo. They are also making bullet resistant booths (according to a link from your 2nd link), so maybe we should look into bullet "proofing" at least parts of our homes? That's gonna get expensive :skep:
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Re: Communication With Reps Regarding DHS Purchase of Ammo

Post by Mister Freeze » 18 May 2012, 13:28

The GC does not apply to DHS. The GC, significantly authored by the US but, to my understanding, never officially adopted, governs MILITARY activities during WAR on the BATTLEFIELD. War being a sanctioned military enforcing policy against another sanctioned military. DHS is LE.

That link is so full of misinformation. MANY agencies use Duty ammo for training.

DHS, the GAO, and any oversight or appropriations committee member for DHS would have the answer. Public $ spent by a public agency= public info.

We-The-People
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Re: Communication With Reps Regarding DHS Purchase of Ammo

Post by We-The-People » 18 May 2012, 16:02

The Geneva Conventions, are not. It is the Geneva Protocols and the U.S. is a signatory to all but one of the protocols. Further, they only apply to military hostilities BETWEEN SIGNATORIES. If one or both parties to hostilites between soverign nations is not a signatory to the protocols, then they only apply if the non signatory nation signs and agreement to abide by the protocols during the hostilities.

I researched this topic in depth for a research paper in college. Even as an 18 year veteran, I didn't know most of what I learned.

Interestingly, since the non government people we are fighting in the middle east are not members of uniformed forces of a soverign nation (that is also a signatory to the protocols), they have NO PROTECTIONS UNDER GENEVA. Yet our idiot politicians, as evidenced by your described lack of sucess in getting an answer to a fairly simple question, allow the perpetuation of the lie that these enemies of ours must be afforded the protections of Geneva and our own Constitution.

I say .... NOPE, NO WAY, NO HOW.

As for the 450 million rounds....YIKES....that's enough to put 9 million in every state OR enough for 25,000 personnel to expend 18,000 rounds each!!! Now what the HECK would they need that many rounds for?

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Re: Communication With Reps Regarding DHS Purchase of Ammo

Post by Mister Freeze » 18 May 2012, 17:53

THANKS for that additional input. I had 'close but not quite' info. Which protocol DIDN'T we sign?
I thought being a signatory meant that it applied to you across the board, not just with another signatory! Live and learn!

We do have a tradition, though, of at least pretending we hold ourselves to a higher standard. Our politicians want us to feel good about what they claim we want them to do, though I can't ever find someone that actually wants them doing it.

Imagine the psychological impact on Tangos if our GI's were spewing HP's, gas, and all that other stuff we technically could throw at them!

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Re: Communication With Reps Regarding DHS Purchase of Ammo

Post by flyingirish04 » 18 May 2012, 19:30

Merkley is a piece of <profanity>. I have interacted with him in professional settings when I live in OR. He fits the definition of imbecile. Dumbest think OR did was put him in the Senate. He will rubber stamp any spending increase and give up all individual rights if it fits with his fascist progressive view.

He is one of those guys that I pray gets voted out of office. He is utterly terrible.
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flyingirish04
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Re: Communication With Reps Regarding DHS Purchase of Ammo

Post by flyingirish04 » 18 May 2012, 19:32

We-The-People wrote:The Geneva Conventions, are not. It is the Geneva Protocols and the U.S. is a signatory to all but one of the protocols. Further, they only apply to military hostilities BETWEEN SIGNATORIES. If one or both parties to hostilites between soverign nations is not a signatory to the protocols, then they only apply if the non signatory nation signs and agreement to abide by the protocols during the hostilities.

I researched this topic in depth for a research paper in college. Even as an 18 year veteran, I didn't know most of what I learned.

Interestingly, since the non government people we are fighting in the middle east are not members of uniformed forces of a soverign nation (that is also a signatory to the protocols), they have NO PROTECTIONS UNDER GENEVA. Yet our idiot politicians, as evidenced by your described lack of sucess in getting an answer to a fairly simple question, allow the perpetuation of the lie that these enemies of ours must be afforded the protections of Geneva and our own Constitution.

I say .... NOPE, NO WAY, NO HOW.

As for the 450 million rounds....YIKES....that's enough to put 9 million in every state OR enough for 25,000 personnel to expend 18,000 rounds each!!! Now what the HECK would they need that many rounds for?
This is 100% correct. That is why in SOF worlds, there are things done LEGALLY, and reviewed by DOD Lawyers, that would not be ok if we were using them against a cosignatory of the Protocols.
Killed Two Stones with One Bird.

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Re: Communication With Reps Regarding DHS Purchase of Ammo

Post by firestorm248 » 18 May 2012, 19:36

Ok some info I can add to this discussion, one on the subject of hollow points, at Barksdale AFB our military law enforcement units had a duty load of hollow points, so the military does use them but only in limited situations. I think the idea behind the GC was only during military operations in war zones but elsewhere is free game.
On the subject of DHS ordering such an ungodly amount of ammo, I am not really surprised. Under DHS are the following agencies
• United States Citizenship and Immigration Services:
• U.S. Customs and Border Protection:
• U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement:
• Transportation Security Administration:
• United States Coast Guard:
• United States Secret Service:
• Federal Emergency Management Agency:
DHS also runs the federal law enforcement training center which trains most federal officers. FLETC itself probably runs through thousands of rounds a day. Then look at the other agencies and what they must run through in a day and have in stock. It could also be it’s that time for them to replace older ammo.

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flyingirish04
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Re: Communication With Reps Regarding DHS Purchase of Ammo

Post by flyingirish04 » 18 May 2012, 21:06

450 million is more rounds then is necessary. It is also much higher then the ordered previously. Obama has been directing agencies to buy more ammo 'due to availability constraints'. It is not too far of a stretch to think he is trying to buy up supply, raise ammo prices, and thus limit the amount people can buy.

And yes, HP are allowed for INCONUS operations. And in certain battlefield situations as well.
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Re: Communication With Reps Regarding DHS Purchase of Ammo

Post by firestorm248 » 19 May 2012, 07:33

When was the last order and for how much?

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Rapier1772
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Re: Communication With Reps Regarding DHS Purchase of Ammo

Post by Rapier1772 » 15 Feb 2013, 08:13

Just saw this on Yahoo
http://news.yahoo.com/homeland-security ... 40538.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Federal solicitations to buy the bullets are known as "strategic sourcing contracts," which help the government get a low price for a big purchase, says Peggy Dixon, spokeswoman for the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center in Glynco, Ga . The training center and others like it run by the Homeland Security Department use as many as 15 million rounds every year, mostly on shooting ranges and in training exercises.
ICE's ammunition requests in the last year included:
—450 million rounds of .40-caliber duty ammunition
—40 million rounds of rifle ammunition a year for as many as five years, for a total bullet-buy of 200 million rounds
—176,000 rifle rounds on a separate contract
—25,000 blank rounds
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srt-4_jon
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Re: Communication With Reps Regarding DHS Purchase of Ammo

Post by srt-4_jon » 15 Feb 2013, 08:24

I know it's old, but it's the Hague convention that prohibits hollow points in warfare.

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