Most lethal 223/5.56 ?

[JoJo]

I have a scoped AR15 and lots of Nato 62gr ammo. I will be buying more ammo and I need advice on what type.
My environment is a large city and even in the suburbs 200 yards would be the maximum range. Realistically,
75 yards would be the practical range. I am not a hunter so I am just concerned with self defense. I have read that military ammo is a compromise because we did not wish to appear insensitive.

I will be reloading unless I find a deal. What do you folks recommend?

[srt-4_jon]

id go with somethinng like vmax. everything else will penetrate alot. mil ammo is meant not to expand.

[toyslr]

I run M855 Penetrator in SHTF mags. Give up some accuarcy put it'll get the job done

[Buffman]

75gr BTHP/WC T2, or some of that barrier blind OTM 62gr Federal stuff MK318 Mod O or whatever

[Visceral_Malice]

I've read 55gr fmj produce some pretty grievous wounds. They apparently fragment pretty violently at the right velocities and the US military stopped using them because of the potential to violate the Geneva convention. That's what I recall anyway.

[SeaHawkDriver-B]

I dont really think it matters, going down the proverbial BARF rabbit hole of which round is going to do what kind of terminal ballistic tissue damage, vs range, vs accuracy, vs barrier pentration, vs frangibility...etc etc is pointless. In any situation where you're using your 5.56 in a defensive role in an urban environment, you've got BIGGER problems to worry about than some sort of theoretical ideology. You'll be damned lucky just to get a round on target if someone is shooting back at you.. so I'd say:

1) Go with something that reliably cycles
2) Go with something you can hit your target with

But just to play along, I am in the same boat toyslr, general issue military ammo has always been M855, which is what you currnetly have, there is only one 62gr NATO round, and thats it. Its green-tipped, and I've shot it in the military for training and standard issue alike. Its never failed me, its not the most accurate, but its cheap and its MILSPEC, and is designed to punch through light body armor or PSGT helmets at intermediate ranges. Only drawback is that you can't use the ammo when shooting steels becuase it tends to ding them up quite badly. 10 mags loaded at all times in a go-bag should be standard.

[srt-4_jon]

fwiw, almost all rifle ammo will penetrate a psgt helmet. the only one i can think of that wont is 22lr. the small 17hm2 and 17hmr will with ease.

[Oldbindlestiff]

M855 is fine for defensive situations and it avoids the "You created special killer ammunition." liabilities if you end up in court. You could try the DRT stuff for soft targets.

[JoJo]

I dont really think it matters, going down the proverbial BARF rabbit hole of which round is going to do what kind of terminal ballistic tissue damage, vs range, vs accuracy, vs barrier pentration, vs frangibility...etc etc is pointless. In any situation where you're using your 5.56 in a defensive role in an urban environment, you've got BIGGER problems to worry about than some sort of theoretical ideology. You'll be damned lucky just to get a round on target if someone is shooting back at you.. so I'd say:

1) Go with something that reliably cycles
2) Go with something you can hit your target with

But just to play along, I am in the same boat toyslr, general issue military ammo has always been M855, which is what you currnetly have, there is only one 62gr NATO round, and thats it. Its green-tipped, and I've shot it in the military for training and standard issue alike. Its never failed me, its not the most accurate, but its cheap and its MILSPEC, and is designed to punch through light body armor or PSGT helmets at intermediate ranges. Only drawback is that you can't use the ammo when shooting steels becuase it tends to ding them up quite badly. 10 mags loaded at all times in a go-bag should be standard.

I am not completely sure what ammo I have but I have a lot of it! It is stamped "RORG 89" and has the Nato symbol but NO green tip. I pulled the bullet and it weighed 62gr. No problems with shooting it.

[JoJo]

Interesting answers but I still have to make a decision.

1. Less than 100 yards
2. Non-professional adversary....no body armor
3. Not concerned with over penetration....outdoor use
4. Reloadable

What 223 round would you most prefer NOT to be shot with! Some of you vets probably know this stuff from hands on experience.
By the way, my barrel has a 1/9 twist.

Thanks

[flyingirish04]

JoJo, Any 5.56 will work for what you want as long as it is brass cased.

The best is civlian version of the Mk 262 MOD 0 or 1. They both use HPBT 77 grainers loaded up by Black Hills. The MOD 0 uses SMK and the MOD 1 uses the new Nosler HPBT that Black Hills had them design.

[Cyberfly]

I was going to be a smart aleck and say the most lethal is the one that is fired at me...and missed. Cuz that is going to get the gates of Hades opened and the hounds unleashed on whoever fired the shot.
But since you are looking for serious answers, I'd listen to Irish this time. Seahawkdriver has some very valid points, too. You're going to need your ammo to reliably cycle and be something that you can hit your target with consistantly. Other than that, I think the bullet type and weight and fps really will be secondary. If you are able to hit the target in a SHTF situation, your job is done. Cost can and probably should be a factor as well. If you are seriously going to train yourself to the point that your weapon and muscle memory is so finely tuned that you will need the same ammunition, then cost will become an issue. Trust me on that one (Irish knows what I'm talking about here...its one thing if the government is supplying it, another if you're paying for it yourself).
All things to consider.

[JoJo]

Thanks everyone. I think I have enough info now to make an informed decision.

Now, what is the best strap system for walking with an Ar15!!!!!!......and the list goes on

[toyslr]

What 223 round would you most prefer NOT to be shot with!

NONE of them....

[FNtacticalNUT]

PMC XTAC all the way baby
AIM Surplus for $289.50 per 1000 rounds
Can't beat it
BOTTOM LINE Cause Stone Cold said so!!!!!!

[Eliga24]

I've been shooting whatever though my AR.

I want to stock up on ammo for SHTF. I want the most lethal rounds possible. Also I want to try to avoid collateral damage for home defense (less of an issue after full blown SHTF) so some rounds that don't penetrate walls much would be ideal. I don't know much about any rounds besides the M855 and the M193 (I currently have these by American Eagle), so I don't know about HP/SP or any or bullets designed to cause mayhem within the body for the AR, nor do I know about bullets designed for less penetration.

Also I'd like to hear your thoughts on M855 rounds for armored enemies and if its worth having.

I have a 1:9 twist by the way.

[flyingirish04]

M855 is ok, but it isn't some amazing go through anything round, especially out of carbine length barrels. That is why many US military units are using the SOPMOD 77 grainers. Out of the m4s and Mk 18' they have better energy transfer on target close range and out of our mk12s, it is much better for longer shots because of it's superior BC and larger mass to fight bullet drop and wind drift respectively.

[Thedirtyheat]

To answer the sling question there isn't a best. It's just all preference and what you are most comfy with really. Everyone has different likes

[Captan Harold D]

Where can one purchase the sopmod 77 grainers?

[flyingirish04]

Blackhills Ammunition sells it. Its their 77gr SMK or Nosler HPBT. Not sure if the civilian version has switched yet, but both projectiles are very, very similar.

[Mister Freeze]

Thanks everyone. I think I have enough info now to make an informed decision.

Now, what is the best strap system for walking with an Ar15!!!!!!......and the list goes on

top-mounted M60 sling (the one with the pad) served me well patrolling in Bosnia. There's not much difference between the most expensive and the cheapest slings. Comfort is second only to ability to present.

[JoJo]

Thanks everyone. I think I have enough info now to make an informed decision.

Now, what is the best strap system for walking with an Ar15!!!!!!......and the list goes on

top-mounted M60 sling (the one with the pad) served me well patrolling in Bosnia. There's not much difference between the most expensive and the cheapest slings. Comfort is second only to ability to present.

I found an illustration of that set up. My ar has a free floating barrel so I believe a sling has to be attached to the hand guard (Yankee Hill). I have never carried a rifle but I know the sling must be comfortable.
I am open to more suggestions.

[JoJo]

In case anyone is interested I decided on the ammo to stock up with. I am going with the 60gr Hornady V Max.

[Valorius]

Mk262 Mod 1 would be my vote.

[blueorison]

Mk262 Mod 1 would be my vote.

I was going to stay away from this thread but...

many think that the more frangible rounds, at closer distances, are the best bet, or the MIL AP rounds.

However, back when MIL first started searching for their SOPMOD Mk 12 round, later designated Mk262 Mod 0/1, they went to the CMP Highpower shooters; long story short, they used their info and the same round loaded to MILSPEC (probably the only time I've used this word LOL!). Highpower shooters load the round past safe pressures, as they have different chambers than MIL rifles.

They were aiming to maximize lethality at longer ranges, with the Mk 12 platform. The round performed brilliantly. What most don't know is that at closer ranges, like 100 yds and under, the round is extremely devastating.

So yes, I would go with that round. I don't believe in "do-alls", but one reason, I think, that Tactical Fanboys drool over the round (other than it's a SOPMOD special round), is because it works for close and long distances, extremely effectively.

Where can one purchase the sopmod 77 grainers?

You can't. It's not sold and was never sold to the public. Blackhills released only the "Seconds" to the public that did not meet MIL standards, and it was very limited and not announced, and only found in Cabelas sporadically for a very short amount of time. Even within MIL, it was a round restricted to those who were trained and carried the Mk 12's.

Obviously, AR15 members went ballistic over this, and prices on Gunbroker was quite high, just for the "Seconds".

The only way you can source it is from MIL that is part of the Mk 12 program, which isn't many.

If you're very serious about getting your hands on some, I have a few authentic Mk262 Mod rounds, still in their package. I did a test with them with my Highpower HBAR rifle that I posted on the member's area of the forum. I think I have removed it since, though. I'm not sure I want to let them go

[PainKillaX]

Mk262 Mod 1 would be my vote.

I was going to stay away from this thread but...

many think that the more frangible rounds, at closer distances, are the best bet, or the MIL AP rounds.

However, back when MIL first started searching for their SOPMOD Mk 12 round, later designated Mk262 Mod 0/1, they went to the CMP Highpower shooters; long story short, they used their info and the same round loaded to MILSPEC (probably the only time I've used this word LOL!). Highpower shooters load the round past safe pressures, as they have different chambers than MIL rifles.

They were aiming to maximize lethality at longer ranges, with the Mk 12 platform. The round performed brilliantly. What most don't know is that at closer ranges, like 100 yds and under, the round is extremely devastating.

So yes, I would go with that round. I don't believe in "do-alls", but one reason, I think, that Tactical Fanboys drool over the round (other than it's a SOPMOD special round), is because it works for close and long distances, extremely effectively.

Where can one purchase the sopmod 77 grainers?

You can't. It's not sold and was never sold to the public. Blackhills released only the "Seconds" to the public that did not meet MIL standards, and it was very limited and not announced, and only found in Cabelas sporadically for a very short amount of time. Even within MIL, it was a round restricted to those who were trained and carried the Mk 12's.

Obviously, AR15 members went ballistic over this, and prices on Gunbroker was quite high, just for the "Seconds".

The only way you can source it is from MIL that is part of the Mk 12 program, which isn't many.

If you're very serious about getting your hands on some, I have a few authentic Mk262 Mod rounds, still in their package. I did a test with them with my Highpower HBAR rifle that I posted on the member's area of the forum. I think I have removed it since, though. I'm not sure I want to let them go

Since I can ask you instead of just googling, can one buy the projectiles and load them ourselves?

[blueorison]

@Pain:

Yes, since this is what the Highpower competitors have done, before the MIL got ahold of it and tweaked it for MIL use. You won't get the powder blends and the formula.

I can tell you for a fact, staring at the casing of the Mk262 Mod right now, that it's LC brass, they use the same rounds we do, 77grainers. If you're really serious about reloading it, you can shoot me a PM and I'll share what I know. We use LC brass for Hipower; not all brass are on the level, and only a few mfg's make them good enough to stand up to the high standards and pressures of long range 77grainer loadings. The pressures are extremely high for Highpower (though, not everyone loads to the same formula as my Coach and I do).

I'll give you an idea; when I was shooting the Mk 262's in my testing, I utilized a flatwire, increased lb'age spring in the test platform. The recoil was substantial for a 5.56 round. So much so that it actually took me a bit off guard. It wasn't .308, but perhaps .300 Blackout with a nice comp., and snappier.

When I shoot the hotter Highpower loadings, it's a lot more kick (still not .308, obv.). It's the only time I've ever felt the 5.56 AR kick. Even SBR's don't kick like that.

[Valorius]

Mk262 Mod 1 77gr SMK OTM is the most destructive 5.56mm round in tissue.

It has an awesome combat reputation in 3 wars plus.

[flyingirish04]

Mk262 Mod 1 77gr SMK OTM is the most destructive 5.56mm round in tissue.

It has an awesome combat reputation in 3 wars plus.

It is a great round for sure. Excellent out of a Mk12. Blackhills is not making it with a Nosler HPBT for the military. Not much different from the old SMK. Apparently Sierra got in a tiff over the mil contract and refused to supply or something. Still can get the SMKs on the civi ammo, and the loading is identical I am told.

[panzermk2]

FYI when ever I get caught up with T6 I plan on doing a run of Virgin LC brass .223 loaded with the 28gr PFP. That should do some damage.

[blueorison]

Mk262 Mod 1 77gr SMK OTM is the most destructive 5.56mm round in tissue.

It has an awesome combat reputation in 3 wars plus.

It is a great round for sure. Excellent out of a Mk12. Blackhills is not making it with a Nosler HPBT for the military. Not much different from the old SMK. Apparently Sierra got in a tiff over the mil contract and refused to supply or something. Still can get the SMKs on the civi ammo, and the loading is identical I am told.

It can be, since they got their formulas based off of the CMP shooters' loadings.

But it still won't be the Mk262 Mod because it didn't come from MIL! :laugh:

[ShockedNKansas]

http://www.shootingtimes.com/2012/03/21 ... -1-review/

Apparently the super duper death ray round is available to us civilians now?

[blueorison]

It has been out for a while;

you can readily reload to your rifle with the 77 SMK and achieve tighter groups than with the "super death ray round".

[toyslr]

Most lethal 223/5.56 ?

The one you put on target before the target puts on you...

[Valorius]

There are several companies that offer a Mk262 Mod1 equivalent, but it's good to see Blackhills themselves selling the round to the public now.

When i had an AR i used Doubletap 77gr OTM. It was loaded to even higher advertised velocity than Mk262, and like the Mod 0 version of Mk262, it used the Nosler 77gr OTM. Supposedly it is a little shoter than a SMK 77gr bullet, so is easier to stabilize in a 1:9 gun.

From all that i'm told, the 77gr SMK bullet does not like 1:9 twists.

[blueorison]

There are several companies that offer a Mk262 Mod1 equivalent, but it's good to see Blackhills themselves selling the round to the public now.

When i had an AR i used Doubletap 77gr OTM. It was loaded to even higher advertised velocity than Mk262, and like the Mod 0 version of Mk262, it used the Nosler 77gr OTM. Supposedly it is a little shoter than a SMK 77gr bullet, so is easier to stabilize in a 1:9 gun.

From all that i'm told, the 77gr SMK bullet does not like 1:9 twists.

Mod 0 uses Nosler? That's news to me.

I never listen to what gun people say... you can't blame me... how many times has that guy behind the counter told you ss190 is banned to the public? :lmao:

Being not an avid listener to "truth" people mill on forums, I took a 1/9 twist carbine and shot Mk262 Mod 0 out of it. Mostly just to spite the all-knowing internet commandos who thought they even knew what they were talking about when they had never even seen the round in person.

[Valorius]

I'm the same way.