SCAR vs HK 556a

Deathmaster · Post by **Deathmaster** » 01 Dec 2011, 19:09

I used to collect and buy/sell pre-ban IMI Galils and definitely regret not keeping an SAR or a mint AR for my personal collection.

I have a Bushy now with an EOTech 512 and dig it fine but want to take a step up and keep this rifle for the long haul.

So, money not being a critical factor, would you go SCAR (.223) or HK 556a? The HK seems like a very refined rifle and I am an HK fan (previously owned HK91 and 91). I have never owned an FN FNC or FAL but have shot both and enjoyed them.

Thoughts?

Post by **blueorison** » 01 Dec 2011, 19:26

I don't think I had the chance to welcome you to the forum. Even if I did, welcome!

Let me try to help you.

- Just by weight alone, SCAR wins hands down. Weight is very important to me; unless you do not plan on moving with it. You might not plan to, so it might not matter to you.
- SCAR contains much less small relocatable parts. It is also fold-able to be more compact than the HK.
- I assume price isn't a factor since you put the HK in there. SCAR wins.
- Reliability; they are both pretty new rifles, even if the HK is built on the AR platform somewhat. I've seen an HK G35C jam on full auto during a match. I've used the SCAR and loved it. That's my input. I wish I had shot the HK416 so I could help you out but I didn't want to shoot a full auto and waste my rounds.

Hope that helps you out.

smpsmp · Post by **smpsmp** » 01 Dec 2011, 19:53

I agree with Blue on this one, my vote is for the SCAR.

For me, even not counting in the small parts, and weight, it's just something different, and there's nothing like it out there right now. If you ever choose to then, you can basically change your Bushmaster to what the H&K is (shy of what the receiver is stamped).

Deathmaster · Post by **Deathmaster** » 01 Dec 2011, 20:09

Thanks much for the detailed response and thanks for the welcome.

I am used to carrying around Galils and those things are tanks (especially the ARM) so I am not too worried about weight. The HK did feel very heavy... MUCH heavier than a typical AR. I was impressed with the ergonomics of the 556a... very comfortable pistol grip, etc... A full auto Galil is a blast if you have never shot one... too bad they run about 20K+ these days.

I agree about the G35C... it is also butt ugly! That gun was never one I had interest in. I haven't really heard anything bad about the 416 and the HK test vids are impressive. I think I am leaning towards the SCAR. I need to try to track one down to shoot in the DFW area before I take the plunge. I have only seen them in Dark Earth and Black. Are they available in OD Green to match my new Five Seven? Thanks again.

Post by **blueorison** » 01 Dec 2011, 20:35

A pistol grip is $20 and you can change it from a regular AR A2 grip to whatever is on the HK.

SMP's comment, humorous as it is, is so true. HK invests so much in itself; more pride than conscience. It's an AR, sir. Nothing new.

Look at Daniel Defense test vids. They are more impressive than HK's test vids. Further, any AR built correctly is just as good as the HK. But if you're an HK fan I'm wasting my breath,

The SCAR is not available in OD green, but you may cerakote it if you like. It's not that expensive, especially if you know someone (MikeSantor on our forum, perhaps). I also play with an OD green FsN and like it very much.

I'm from the DFW area, now residing in Austin, as my avatar might suggest. The ranges here are much more accommodating; perhaps you could try to see if any of them rents out SCARS? If you make it up here, bring a few of your favourite guns and you may shoot with me on my private range for free. I also have access to another private range further north with 6 tactical bays that are closed to public if you are afraid of unsafe people

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 01 Dec 2011, 20:55

I would take the HK, and it isn't close. The SCAR is decent, don't get me wrong, but I really feel it isn't worth its price, not in the least. Accuracy is not great. I have shot quite a few 17s and one 16, and none, I repeat none grouped under an inch. For their price, that is a must for me. Don't take my word for it. The USMC just went through extensive trials with the military SCAR 17 and 16 along side HK's upgrade to the 416 and a 7.62 version. The HK blew it out of the water.

I am not an HK fanboy, but the 556a is not just another AR. It is a match grade AR that will shoot under 1 MOA, guaranteed. It is designed off the 416 design they had for the military which may be the best piston system on the market. It is a million times smoother than the SCAR or most ARs. But it is heavier, and you pay for HK. IMO, there are much better options out there for the money. The SIG 556 Classic now with the 551 package would be on my list if I wanted a piston gun, and they are the best value for a carbine that money can buy right now.

I would buy a custom billet AR from some one like SI-Defense in MT. They make a piston gun as well, and their billets will cost you less than a SCAR and be lighter and WAY more accurate.

Just a different viewpoint. :thumb:

tombirdman · Post by **tombirdman** » 02 Dec 2011, 14:28

flyingirish04 wrote:I would take the HK, and it isn't close. The SCAR is decent, don't get me wrong, but I really feel it isn't worth its price, not in the least. Accuracy is not great. I have shot quite a few 17s and one 16, and none, I repeat none grouped under an inch. For their price, that is a must for me. Don't take my word for it. The USMC just went through extensive trials with the military SCAR 17 and 16 along side HK's upgrade to the 416 and a 7.62 version. The HK blew it out of the water.

I am not an HK fanboy, but the 556a is not just another AR. It is a match grade AR that will shoot under 1 MOA, guaranteed. It is designed off the 416 design they had for the military which may be the best piston system on the market. It is a million times smoother than the SCAR or most ARs. But it is heavier, and you pay for HK. IMO, there are much better options out there for the money. The SIG 556 Classic now with the 551 package would be on my list if I wanted a piston gun, and they are the best value for a carbine that money can buy right now.

I would buy a custom billet AR from some one like SI-Defense in MT. They make a piston gun as well, and their billets will cost you less than a SCAR and be lighter and WAY more accurate.

Just a different viewpoint. :thumb:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have a Ruger SR556 with an ACOG sight.
Aloso have SCAR16s & 17s.

Have shot the HK and liked.

The Ruger SR556 is just to close and a lot cheaper than the HK. Nearly, if not as accurate. Works on the same principals as the HK and their is very little difference mechanically and what there is, in my oppinion, favors the Ruger SR556. In any case I would encourage you to look at it ! Fourteen fourty for a complete piston, well thought out AR.

As far as the accuracy of the SCAR, it's design and anything else you would want to mention , The SCAR far outshines anything else + the military tests prove what it is.

Keep up on your research !

Whatever your decision, you are looking at some goos stuff.
You're the one that will live with your purchase so make up your own mind and go with your gut !

I assure you the comments about SCARS is negative and just plain wrong !
Personal experience.
Military research.
Public reaction to SCARS & etc. prove it

It will shoot 1moa all day with heavy match 223s of quality. I use "Private Partisan" 75 gr. Match.

If you can rent or shoot a 16s I think yu wil know !

.

.

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 02 Dec 2011, 14:48

Listen, I have plenty of time behind the SCAR, both in the Mk16 and 17 form, and the civi version. I am glad you love yours. Nothing worse than feeling you overpaid for a weapon. I am glad you don't feel that way.

What you claim about the SCAR is simply not true. It won't shoot under MOA. Not consistently. The SCAR has failed the only comprehensive test it has gone through, and lost to the HK. That would be the USMC IAR test. Look it up. Also, SOCOM has cancelled their SCAR 16 orders as well, for performance issues I described. You can google that too. I would suggest you do your research before you try and say I haven't done mine.

:thumb:

I would love to debate FACTS with you, but I will not debate how you feel, as there is nothing I can say to bring objectivity to that. You show me military tests that herald the SCAR, I would love to read em. I like the look of the gun, I like the weight, and I like the stock design. That is all I like about it though. And as I said before, I am not an HK fan. The only two weapons I am a huge fan of they make is the 416, and the PSG-1.

Either way, your collection has four pretty good semiautos that I wouldn't mind having myself if money weren't an issue. They are just a lot further down on the list than the HK or a Sig 551. There is no questioning that you have some cool setups. And thanks for the pics. Always love the gun porn. :cya:

Post by **blueorison** » 02 Dec 2011, 18:14

Irish, do you mind going over which parts the SCAR failed in these military tests you indicated? I read the release at the beginning of this year but don't recall it. Did it relate to the accuracy and shot to shot repeat MOA?

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 02 Dec 2011, 19:32

It was the Mk16 LMG variant. It is the only one to go through an extensive military trial. The USMC is looking to replace their SAWs with more of a riflemans LMG. That is what the IAR is about. Infantryman's or Infantry (depending on who you talk to) Automatic Rifle. It is to be able to fire from both the open and closed bolt for fire-team automatic capability, and longer range assault rifle capability depending on the warzone need.

The Mk16 cancelled orders have to do with the fact that the operators just don't want them. At Bragg, the biggest gripe was with its durability. I have heard (second hand) it didn't shoot as well in the mud as the 416 did. Now that isn't to say that their aren't any being used in SOCOM, its just that they have cancelled all future orders. You can literally google the subject "mk16 Socom cancellation" and it will come up. You can also google "IAR Trials HK SCAR" and you will get countless hits about it. Part of it was cost claims many reporters, but from what I heard it was more than that. It simply didn't perform better than the M4 variants that already fit seemlessly into the military system. The Wikipedia entry isn't exactly accurate, so don't take it for face value, but it claims the XM18 outshined both the SCAR and 416 on stoppages. I have heard other reports. Fact is, the SCAR disappointed.

Word is that most SCARs now being chosen are 17s, however it isn't as popular with Tier 1 guys as the PSG-1 nor the new 417s that are circling around.

My gripe with the SCAR is the clunkiness of the piston, and accuracy problems. I have never had a problem with it jamming personally, though I never had any issue with the 416 either. Just seems like it could be a lot better for what you pay for it.

fooschnickens · Post by **fooschnickens** » 02 Dec 2011, 19:53

The 556a is the civie version of the 416, yes?

Assuming they're the same except for the fun switch, I'd look at something else. There have been a lot of issues with the gas systems in them (buddy of mine in the norwegian army had his completely fail and not even HK was able to fix it) especially in colder areas. Granted not many people use their rifles at freezing temperatures but it kinda makes you wonder about the rest of it. I mean, hell, the gas selector switch just changes on its own (unless they recently fixed that) sometimes. Plus, didn't they stop making it because it had so many problems?

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 02 Dec 2011, 20:56

See I have had the exact opposite experience with the 416s. They have performed as well as anything. I have used it in subzero temps, as well as in the grit of the desert. I have never heard about the gas selector switch problems, and no, they are one of the most produced M4 piston variant out there. In fact it was a 416 that likely shot OBL. Are you thinking of something else maybe?

Either way, I am not a HK diehard. I loathed the G36s we got to play with at Bragg, and I hated the Mk23. It shot well, but it was too damn big. I don't really like any of their other pistols either. Don't feel right in my hand, P7M13 excluded. I would like one of those.

toyslr · Post by **toyslr** » 03 Dec 2011, 09:35

Hate to bust the H&K fan section but its not all that either:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009 ... h-hk416-2/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk416-hk417- ... blems.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://gunnuts.net/2009/04/06/hk416-production-halted/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; this was updated http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009 ... suspended/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009 ... mpetition/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I personally think for every positive you find on a weapons platform you will find just as many naysayers. From what I have read up until the final testing Colt actually lead the competition then the H&K jumped to the lead even though its was 2nd or 3rd in failure to fire testing. Its amazing how everyone trumps a better rifle but yet forget the issues that the M16 faced in its beginnings and it was only after direct order from McNamara that it was placed in service

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 03 Dec 2011, 10:55

Yeah, see, not a fan, like I said, but one thing is for sure, the SCAR will never be adopted. FN could put together a new rifle and submit it in 20 years, but the SCAR won't ever be adopted by the military in any command distro form.

Also, not for nothing, but I heard the DMR version was canned as well. At least by NSW. They preferred sticking with the PSG-1.

Post by **blueorison** » 03 Dec 2011, 11:13

Wish someone besides Keltec and FN would make a compact, plastic .308 that I could use.

Instead of saturating the fanboy market with more useless ARs.

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 03 Dec 2011, 12:42

I personally see nothing wrong with ARs. Nothing to do with fanboyism. Its about modularity and functionality. I personally love that there are options in the AR market. It keeps innovation in piston tech going, and it keeps costs down.

Is there over-saturation right now? Yes, but it will work out.

I do wish there were more options in other platforms, including AKs, Sig 551 variants, especially in 7.62Nato, and I think FN needs to lower their SCAR price to what they are worth, which is about 1600 bucks, and that is for the 17.

Wollychop · Post by **Wollychop** » 03 Dec 2011, 17:36

They have no reason to lower the price of either SCAR variant as long as people are willing to pay the asking price. There isn't some objective authority out there assigning prices.

You may think that the SCAR 16s is a $1400 gun (which it might be), but until the market drives the price down, and people aren't willing to pay 2k plus, the price will be what the price is.

To be honest, when I look at ARs and what I have in my SCAR, and what I'd have to dump into an off-the-shelf AR to make it "what I want", I really don't have a problem with the SCAR's price point, considering the fact that I can't just get a folding stock AR-15 or 10 that easily, either.

Now, did I pay that much for my Sig 556? Nah. And they are both piston guns, both take STANAG, etc.

Bottom line, I guess, is that if people weren't willing to pay, the price wouldn't be where it is.

Similar to pro ball. People complain about how much ball players make, but they still buy tickets to the games and buy the shoes they advertise. The market justifies the price, and the sales support the price tags. Why change?

FWIW, I have no issue whatsoever with a $500 bargain bin AR-15, either. It's up to the person writing the check to decide what they are willing to spend on what.

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 03 Dec 2011, 17:44

Wollychop wrote:They have no reason to lower the price of either SCAR variant as long as people are willing to pay the asking price. There isn't some objective authority out there assigning prices.

You may think that the SCAR 16s is a $1400 gun (which it might be), but until the market drives the price down, and people aren't willing to pay 2k plus, the price will be what the price is.

To be honest, when I look at ARs and what I have in my SCAR, and what I'd have to dump into an off-the-shelf AR to make it "what I want", I really don't have a problem with the SCAR's price point, considering the fact that I can't just get a folding stock AR-15 or 10 that easily, either.

Now, did I pay that much for my Sig 556? Nah. And they are both piston guns, both take STANAG, etc.

Bottom line, I guess, is that if people weren't willing to pay, the price wouldn't be where it is.

Similar to pro ball. People complain about how much ball players make, but they still buy tickets to the games and buy the shoes they advertise. The market justifies the price, and the sales support the price tags. Why change?

FWIW, I have no issue whatsoever with a $500 bargain bin AR-15, either. It's up to the person writing the check to decide what they are willing to spend on what.

No arguments with anything you said Wolly. I was just saying what it would take for me to own one. And, I think the hype for the SCAR is waning. Every store that sells them (Scheels doesn't) has at least two on the shelves and they have been there for months.

Post by **panzermk2** » 03 Dec 2011, 22:48

blueorison wrote:Wish someone besides Keltec and FN would make a compact, plastic .308 that I could use.

Instead of saturating the fanboy market with more useless ARs.

An FS2000 in .308 is what your asking for then isn't it?

I prefer the FS2000 over the SCARE light. The compact package is just to appealing to me.

Post by **blueorison** » 03 Dec 2011, 23:20

Yeah, basically. I like the RFB over the FS2000, though, because it's much simpler with less moving parts.

I'm going to look into more bullpup plastic .308's. Problem with them is that their triggers SUCK. The good ones are usually custom that cost 4-5$. The RFB already has a better trigger for a bullpup.

Post by **panzermk2** » 04 Dec 2011, 00:23

All bullpups suffer from bad triggers. Learn to shoot with them then. Simple like using mop handles when I hustled pool instead of cue sticks. The stick no matter what it's construction is still a stick. It's all about how you hit the ball.

Besides if it's that bad I have a professional Russian who can fix it.

Post by **blueorison** » 04 Dec 2011, 01:01

Wait.. so you're saying.... the emphasis should be on the shooter, not the gear?

WHAT RUBBISH IS THIS.

Sounds really familiar, like I've heard it from somewhere... can't place my finger on it... :lmao: :lmao:

Post by **panzermk2** » 04 Dec 2011, 01:21

blueorison wrote:Wait.. so you're saying.... the emphasis should be on the shooter, not the gear?

WHAT RUBBISH IS THIS.

Sounds really familiar, like I've heard it from somewhere... can't place my finger on it... :lmao: :lmao:

legit

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 04 Dec 2011, 12:18

If its the shooter, which I agree, then save your money and buy a AR-10 :p

SHEEPDOG · Post by **SHEEPDOG** » 04 Dec 2011, 18:57

panzermk2 wrote:
blueorison wrote:Wish someone besides Keltec and FN would make a compact, plastic .308 that I could use.

Instead of saturating the fanboy market with more useless ARs.

An FS2000 in .308 is what your asking for then isn't it?

I prefer the FS2000 over the SCARE light. The compact package is just to appealing to me.

:agree: With both of you. I put a Neu-Trigger on my FS2000, it made a big difference in it.

Post by **blueorison** » 04 Dec 2011, 19:19

Sweet! I tried the Neu-trigger on an MSAR and it made a big difference.

FNtacticalNUT · Post by **FNtacticalNUT** » 05 Dec 2011, 19:12

IRISH
Come on man.
It seems as if you are a salesman for HK or for Colt. This is a proven platform that has been adopted by our military for years. Also been adopted by other countries across the world for that fact. No platform is perfect and has never been. No AR is really worth the asking price if you want to really argue that fact. But for you to bang the SCAR over hear say is crazy. You will find good and bad in any platform.
But you can never fight the fact that they are being issued these guns today. I have a few friends that are responsible for these military contracts and the word is that they are trying to bring down the cost of the platforms. Thats why the military will likely go to a modified M4 platform.
But I live around a ton of SOCOM's and they live and die with the SCAR platform.
I printed your post and showed it to them and as normal they just laugh out loud. You can not believe everything you read and even if it is from the GOVERNMENT. Come on you know that.
Everyone has their opinion and are entitled to them. But the fact is that I am looking at a GOVT issue SCAR right now along with a GOVT issue manual. So what testing did it not pass to be approved by the SOCOM division. Let's not forget that the USMC's are not the only elite forces in our military. No one division is bigger than the next. So in reality your opinions are just that. YOUR OPINIONS.
Most people issued these rifles would give up their life before they would the SCAR.
Notice I said most but not all. As everyone is entitled their opinion but that doesnt make it right.
And for the record both HK and Knight Armament have been removed from the new platform bidding. The military will be making a modified version of the M4 but it is based off of $$$$$$$$$ and not performance issues.

When the SCAR has been zeroed in correctly by it's SPEC I have never not shot SUB MOA EVER!!!!!!
Under any conditions. !!!!!!!!!!! PERIOD !!!!!!!!!!!

The SCAR is still top dog for the SOCOM divisions as that is what they were designed for and by. And those that rely on it with their lives would have none other. :p :p

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 05 Dec 2011, 19:24

"I have never shot sub MOA ever."

That might be the only truthful statement in that whole post above. Man, I don't know what to tell you, but read a bit more before you post. I can't even begin to point out the amount of error in your post. If you are trolling for a heated argument, I don't have any desire to pursue one. Mostly because you aren't concerned with fact, but also because I have nothing against the SCAR except for its price. My issue. :facepalm:

And for the record, I don't work in the firearms industry. I am ex-military, and now market crude-based refined products.

:cya:

fooschnickens · Post by **fooschnickens** » 05 Dec 2011, 19:27

I'd post a picture right now but fuzzy got mad at me the last time I used it.

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 05 Dec 2011, 19:27

fooschnickens wrote:I'd post a picture right now but fuzzy got mad at me the last time I used it.

pm it to me.

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 05 Dec 2011, 19:31

I will say this, his screen name seems to be uber accurate.

FNtacticalNUT · Post by **FNtacticalNUT** » 05 Dec 2011, 20:10

I do not wish for any heated argument. But I respectfully disagree.
I am not perfect never claimed to be
But I am also looking at your posts as well and felt a need to give a different opinion.
But I do see your smart comments to fooshchnickens.
Shows you can not respect others point of views.
You and your smart comments are not worth my time and efforts.
And my comment about shooting SUB MOA's are facts when the SCAR is zeroed in to SPEC's
Or do you even know how to?
Just a question.
And I am pushing out point's from over 10+ friends that use them everyday with their lives on the line.
If you know so much then educate me even more as I am willing to learn.
But I will leave the rest of this post to you
MR. know it all.

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 05 Dec 2011, 20:31

Listen, I welcome you to the forum. But I think you will benefit in knowing that there a ton of guys that have actually been around and know when someone is fronting or posing.

I don't need to know it all to know that shooting sub MOA is a good thing, not a bad thing like you originally posted. Also don't need to be a KIA (not killed in action

) to know that MOA shift and greater than consistent 1 inch groups at 100 yards is something that FN admits too w/ the SCAR. Nor do I need to know everything to know that there is no such thing as 'SOCOMs' or 'SOCOM divisions' or that I am fairly certain given those mistakes that you are lying when you say you have ten friends that are using them with 'their lives on the line'. Also, 'zeroed in to specs' means next to nothing.

My guess is that you own a SCAR and took offense to me 'dressing it down' (real military slang by the way). Let me stifle your petulance for my alternative view on the weapon you so love by saying that I own many weapons less capable than the SCAR. There, not so bad now is it. :thumb:

Post by **f3rr37** » 05 Dec 2011, 20:41

Guys cool it, or warnings will be issued to all.

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 05 Dec 2011, 21:00

FNTacticalNUT,

Let's take Fuzzy's advice on this subject. Welcome to the forum. It is always good to have a new guy that loves shooting on here. We all post things at times we wish we could take back. I hope you find this forum as full of knowledge and info as I have. It really is the better of the two FN related forums. :thumb:

FNtacticalNUT · Post by **FNtacticalNUT** » 05 Dec 2011, 21:03

You seem to know everything.
You know that there are no UNITED STATES SPECIAL OPERATIONS COMMAND. I guess I made that up to. Oh I guess I do not live in a subdivision here in Good OLE Virginia with mostly NAVY SEALS SPECS OP'S. Or that my family member writes GOVT contracts for the military.
OH I forgot you are MR. Know it all.
When you go to the range every weekend with my pal's you tend to learn a thing or two. I have owned my SCAR for 3 years now and am very consistent with my MOA.
If you need to see how it is done come pay us a visit as we would enjoy showing you how it is done on the range here in VA. We are always looking for some competition.

But you then call me a liar.
I do not claim to be military nor have I claimed to know it all or nor do I claim someone else a liar.
You have shown your true colors to me.
I was just disagreeing with your personal opinion but given your smart mouth attitude I do not respect that now.
I Have more than one SCAR and have MORE than one rifle and pistol. And have been around a family of military and great shooters' my entire life. I have been shooting since I was 5 years old.
Just because I am NOOB here does not mean I have no knowledge of what I am talking about. But again you take it personal when someone else disagrees with you.
You are a MR.KNOW it all.
FACE the FACT's

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 05 Dec 2011, 21:06

Ok. And again, welcome to the forum.

FNtacticalNUT · Post by **FNtacticalNUT** » 05 Dec 2011, 21:07

I am done any way . I have enjoyed your forum but when someone has a difference of opinion and the other calls some one a liar. Then it has gone to far. I just wanted to state my side of what I have seen out there. I mean no harm and was clearly just stating an opinion.
Sorry if I have offended anyone.
My Apologies

FNtacticalNUT · Post by **FNtacticalNUT** » 05 Dec 2011, 21:09

No harm done.
Everything here is fine.
Sorry for ruffling of the feather's

FNtacticalNUT · Post by **FNtacticalNUT** » 05 Dec 2011, 21:17

On May 4, 2010, a press release on FNH USA's official website announced the SCAR Acquisition Decision Memorandum was finalized on April 14, 2010. This is an approval for the entire weapons family of the Mk16 SCAR Light, Mk17 SCAR Heavy and the Enhanced Grenade Launcher Module.[20]

In late October 2010 SOCOM approved full-rate production of the Mk 20 sniper variant of the SCAR, with fielding expected to begin in mid-May 2011.[11]

FNtacticalNUT · Post by **FNtacticalNUT** » 05 Dec 2011, 21:23

This is the cancellation of the MK16 [from Wikipedia]

On June 25, 2010 SOCOM announced that it was canceling the acquisition of the MK-16 citing limited funds and a lack of enough of a performance difference in another 5.56mm rifle to justify the purchase. Remaining funds would be expended for the MK-17 7.62×51 mm version and the MK-20 sniper variant.[27] "FNH USA believes the issue is not whether the SCAR, and specifically the [originally contracted] MK 16 variant, is the superior weapon system available today ... it has already been proven to be just that, ... recently passing Milestone C and determined to be operationally effective / operationally suitable (OE/OS) for fielding. The issue is whether or not the requirement for a 5.56mm replacement outweighs the numerous other requirements competing for the customers’ limited budget. That is a question that will only be determined by the customer." [28] FN Herstal though has stated that the 5.56mm variant will be retained by SOCOM, and that "The choice between the 5.56 and the 7.62 caliber will be left to the discretion of each constitutive component of USSOCOM's Joint Command (e.g. SEALs, Rangers, Army Special Forces, MARSOC, AFSOC) depending on their specific missions on today's battlefield." [29]

As of August 19, 2010 word from US Special Operations Command has not changed. SOCOM has decided to procure the 7.62 mm MK-17 rifle, the 40mm MK-13 grenade launcher and the 7.62mm MK-20 Sniper Support rifle variants of the Special Operations Forces Combat Assault Rifle (SCAR) manufactured by FN. SOCOM will not purchase the 5.56mm MK-16. At this point the individual service component commands within SOCOM (Army Special Operations Command, Naval Special Warfare Command, Air Force Special Operations Command, and Marine Corps Forces Special Operations Command) may or may not still buy the 5.56mm MK-16 SCAR for some or all of their respective subordinate units even with overall US Special Operations Command opting not to.[

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 05 Dec 2011, 21:36

Yep, that's the FN press release. And that is what FNH believes. I agree. And procurement will continue at a limited basis. It will not be adopted service wide like the HK in the IAR, nor will SOCOM be limited to it in its procurement. KAC and HK aren't excluded either. And the only thing clear is that a modified AR will be adopted by combat arms units of the military and the USMC has excluded FN from their procurement structure based on its findings in the IAR testing.

That was my point. The only proving ground exercise where HK went head to head with FNH, the HK was selected.

http://www.defensereview.com/us-marine- ... 49-sawlmg/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **blueorison** » 05 Dec 2011, 22:06

I've seen many MOA and sub-MOA targets from the SCAR 5.56 and .308. Per your point, this has to be repeatable. So I will try to get my hands on a 16 or 17 and shoot it at 100 yards and see if it consistently holds that MOA and zero.

I'm really interested in the SCARs and would like to hear more facts about it. :thumb:

flyingirish04 wrote:The USMC just went through extensive trials with the military SCAR 17 and 16 along side HK's upgrade to the 416 and a 7.62 version. The HK blew it out of the water.

It is designed off the 416 design they had for the military which may be the best piston system on the market. It is a million times smoother than the SCAR or most ARs.

Irish do you mind citing some sources for these two points you made? Thanks!

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 06 Dec 2011, 06:37

See link above.

fooschnickens · Post by **fooschnickens** » 06 Dec 2011, 07:12

Welp. There goes another member.

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 06 Dec 2011, 07:30

No, he is still here. All is well. And it seems he an energetic add to the forum. :thumb:

Unless you were talking about yourself, in which case GOOD RIDDANCE! :laugh: Seriously, just kidding.

Post by **Cyberfly** » 06 Dec 2011, 10:00

I still think the Ruger 556 is worth looking at.
Less money and a darn good rifle.

Hoodathunk I'd recommend a Ruger?!

FNtacticalNUT · Post by **FNtacticalNUT** » 06 Dec 2011, 13:08

You really thought you could get rid of me that easy?
Come on now it is not that easy.
I knew Mr IRISH would not agree with what I posted. But it is not from FNH nor from a invovled party. And yes KAC and HK were never excluded but this month removed themselves from the bidding contract. I can not reveal my sources on that matter. But you will see soon enough when it is let out of the bag. I can not speak for them nor do I claim to. But I do know that much.
The defense review article was dated 12/4/09. A full 2 years ago and it is only relevent to replace the FN M249 . And for the testing I know HK is a great product but I also know that SOCOM is still buying the SCAR. And yes every branch has the right to choose their own weapon of choice which is what USMC has done. But this still does not prove that every military branch is accepting it. This is only the testing of one branch of the military. How about the testing for SOCOM that it was the only platform then to out perform the competition.
I still know several SPEC OP guys in the NAVY and ARMY that are using the SCARS. These are battle proven and very reliable as are most FNH products.
But none the less this is getting away from the fact that you say that HK blows it out of the water.
My point is that the SCAR is a premium product that is priced at just that.
It is proven to be a leader in the industry and your personal opinion does not take that away from that platform.
This is nothing more than 1 man's opinion on this matter. The SCAR has been proven to be reliable and everyone that I know loves it that relies on it.
I hope that this information will be helpful for you to make an educated decision on purchasing the SCAR.
But you will need to buy where your heart is. Not where mine is at. :p :p

FNtacticalNUT · Post by **FNtacticalNUT** » 06 Dec 2011, 13:18

The Ruger 556 is a fine rifle. But to me it is very top heavy and nose heavy. After handling the SCAR and going to another platform is tough for me. The felt recoil is also much different. The only issue that I have with RUGER is it is INVESTMENT CASTING. I do not know if they do it wil the 556 but I would guess that they do because everything else they make is Investment Casting.
But I do like the platform of the RUGER 556 as they are a great value. :agree:

Post by **Cyberfly** » 06 Dec 2011, 13:49

I don't know if they cast or mill the Ruger. Another one I'd check on is the S&W M&P 556, but again, I don't know if they are cast or milled either. I handled one at a police shoot out and that is ONE AR platform that I would purchase on purpose.
True, it isn't a SCAR, nor is it an H&K, nor is it a Sig, but you could buy 2 of the S&W's for the price of one of those 'elitist' weapon systems! Hahahahaha...sorry guys, I had to!
But seriously, I really did like the M&P. Like I said, it's not an upper end shooter like those mentioned above, but I really, REALLY did like the way it felt and handled.
If I run across another Ruger, though...I'll check into whether she's milled or cast. That's a good thing to know.

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 06 Dec 2011, 15:08

She is forged like most mainstream ARs.

Great to see you back Fly!

Post by **blueorison** » 07 Dec 2011, 01:21

Cyberfly wrote: True, it isn't a SCAR, nor is it an H&K, nor is it a Sig, but you could buy 2 of the S&W's for the price of one of those 'elitist' weapon systems! Hahahahaha...sorry guys, I had to!

LOL. :thumb:

I like S&W M&P15's. I've shot them a bunch and would definitely recommend them.

Post by **Cyberfly** » 07 Dec 2011, 05:35

S&W got something right with them, didn't they? I can't quite put my finger on it, but there is something different about them. True, they still aren't a Sig, but they are light, tight and ready to fight. I loved the feel, the action and the way they handled.
One of the best feeling AR's I ever handled.
As much as I hate to say it, I liked it even better than the Colt M4.

toyslr · Post by **toyslr** » 07 Dec 2011, 10:29

I've sold ALOT of the Ruger 556's and for the money, it is a good deal! You get a variable gas piston rifle with a troy battle rail, troy flip up sights, hogue grip, and 3 p-mags for just under $1400.00. Not a bad deal considering most other gas piston rigs will cost you atleast 1800-1900

SamM · Post by **SamM** » 19 Jan 2012, 15:36

If you guys are still looking at ARs, you need to be looking at Noveske. Add a piston kit and you've got something. I just bought a matched Noveske upper and lower and I'm putting it together myself. There's no better way to do it. The Noveske stuff is very well made.

SamM

SeaHawkDriver-B · Post by **SeaHawkDriver-B** » 19 Jan 2012, 16:00

Go buy a Bob's Machine, Tool, and Muffler shop AR.... nobdoy beats the BMT&M stuff, hands down! Yeah, they've only been making piston uppers for 6 weeks, but they started years ago making AR accessories when the ban was lifted in 2004. If you know whats what and have been following their sponsorship on BARF.com, then you know BMT&M makes some sick AR parts. They have solved all the problems with AR's and make the 1960's armalite design into a completely modern rifle... and at least comparable or better than the 643 other AR manufacturers on the scene.

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 19 Jan 2012, 20:38

I know BMT&M. They are decent, but to say they are the best is not something you can do with intellectual honesty. They make a good reliable battle rifle, but no one, and I repeat no one sees them as anything more than the other custom billet guys. Great product though for sure, just not in a world of its own by any means.

Noveske was the game to beat, but they are now way less of a gun in comparison to the competition, for way more than those other manufacturers. It is the AR of 3 years ago. Not the best that is in the game now. Still great short piston uppers if you want to go Class 3. Only way I would buy them over some of the newer guys in the game like SI or JL or BR or LT.

The truth is, I can't pick one that is absolute best AR. There are several excellent, all encompassing custom AR manufacturers. Generally, billet machined ARs with a light weight yet smooth piston (or gas, some of those new systems are pretty good too and fit 99% of what people need) and most importantly a quality custom barrels is where to start. The rest is pretty much just white noise and marketing mumbo jumbo. IN the end it is a gun so the same principles apply. Accuracy, reliability, and durability.

tombirdman · Post by **tombirdman** » 03 Feb 2012, 23:02

Cyberfly wrote:I still think the Ruger 556 is worth looking at.
Less money and a darn good rifle.

Hoodathunk I'd recommend a Ruger?!

:agree:

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

I second that !

I like mine as well as the HK.

tombirdman · Post by **tombirdman** » 03 Feb 2012, 23:10

FNtacticalNUT wrote:The Ruger 556 is a fine rifle. But to me it is very top heavy and nose heavy. After handling the SCAR and going to another platform is tough for me. The felt recoil is also much different. The only issue that I have with RUGER is it is INVESTMENT CASTING. I do not know if they do it wil the 556 but I would guess that they do because everything else they make is Investment Casting.
But I do like the platform of the RUGER 556 as they are a great value. :agree:

:thumb: :thumb:

They have a seperate investment casting business and make many things, including AR parts for other companies.
It is a very big business for them.

tombirdman · Post by **tombirdman** » 03 Feb 2012, 23:13

flyingirish04 wrote:She is forged like most mainstream ARs.

Great to see you back Fly!

:agree:

I agree !

They do forgings, not castings !

tombirdman · Post by **tombirdman** » 20 Aug 2012, 21:17

Cyberfly wrote:I still think the Ruger 556 is worth looking at.
Less money and a darn good rifle.

Hoodathunk I'd recommend a Ruger?!

:agree:

10/4

tombirdman · Post by **tombirdman** » 20 Aug 2012, 21:24

FNtacticalNUT wrote:The Ruger 556 is a fine rifle. But to me it is very top heavy and nose heavy. After handling the SCAR and going to another platform is tough for me. The felt recoil is also much different. The only issue that I have with RUGER is it is INVESTMENT CASTING. I do not know if they do it wil the 556 but I would guess that they do because everything else they make is Investment Casting.
But I do like the platform of the RUGER 556 as they are a great value. :agree:

Ruger has a business where they make AR and other parts for some of the big boys !
They were doing this long before they got into the AR business!

Post by **Cyberfly** » 21 Aug 2012, 05:10

Then it stands to reason that it was only a matter of time. If they were already making AR parts for some of the larger companies, it wasn't a far stretch for them to step out and put together their own AR.
I'll be honest, I don't think its as pretty as Colt's M4, but it really does come down to performance. Its not quite as comfortable as S&W's M&P was for me, but really close. Either way, I've always been a sucker for Rugers and they've never failed me so I wouldn't have any problem trusting one.

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