Lacquer coating solution

Reloading info for the 5.7x28mm

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starfury
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Re: Lacquer coating solution

Post by starfury » 27 Jun 2009, 06:28

1moreaug - definately let us know what happens. I use EEZOX as well for several rifles and love it... just never considered it for this application. It does dry completely to a film pretty quick so it might work.

I was also thinking about some of those polymer auto paint protectors you see in the store that wipe on and leave a smooth dry film... The original (but somewhat damaged) lacquer is still on the casing so it should still eject fine - the thin film would just allow it to more freely roll through the magazine.

1moreaug
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Re: Lacquer coating solution

Post by 1moreaug » 30 Jun 2009, 20:57

I took a chance and tried something with one of my mags that was giving me trouble. I took it completely apart and sprayed it off, inside and out, with denatured alcohol to clean it up. Then I took Eezox and wiped it on the follower and the pins inside. then I coated the feed lips and poured some inside and coated everything inside. Took the compressor and blew everything dry and let it sit overnight. I put it back together and took it out this morning and it worked perfectly. I haven't got to the brass coating yet because my brass still has 90% of the lacquer on them and I'm not ready to try stripping them before I have to.

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starfury
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Re: Lacquer coating solution

Post by starfury » 05 Jul 2009, 11:43

I went out yesterday (with my PS90) and tried some rounds that had a very light dry EEZOX layer and found that romer522 is absolutely correct - poor extraction for those rounds. I didn't put on much, just wiped the rounds on a rag that had some EEZOX on it (and let it dry for 24hrs). It made them much smoother and they loaded nicely in the magazine; however it was a 50/50 chance that they wouldn't extract all the way (nothing got stuck, just had to manually cycle again). This was the 7th reload on this brass (using 6.5gr TrueBlue pushing the little Hornady 30gr V-max’s).

So the search is still on for the elusive coating to repair the damaged lacquer!

mickey223
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Re: Lacquer coating solution

Post by mickey223 » 05 Jul 2009, 12:12

I've thought of using incralac, but haven't done a lot of 5.7 reloading as most of my stuff has come from Ryan.

http://talasonline.com/photos/instructi ... _sheet.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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starfury
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Re: Lacquer coating solution

Post by starfury » 15 Dec 2009, 18:55

Something occured to me today when I was shooting the PS90. Most of the hang up issues I have noted (even after having reloaded up to 6 or 7 times) are due to feeding from the magazine (ie a round doesn't want to roll) and not ejection from the action. Even with pretty chewed up coating they cycle fine on extraction. Since the issue is rolling in the magazine I wonder if sprinking some dry lubericant such as graphite (or maybe PTFE powder) in the magazine would solve the problem (it shouldn't affect the cycling in the action) - this is what they do on those wopper Beta-Mags for the AR's....

Has anyone tried this - I might have to get a tube of graphite...


Also I noted that 30 round mags are a little more forgiving since they have the same spring as a 50 rd mag but it is preloaded by the block which gives more starting force.

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Re: Lacquer coating solution

Post by Toynut » 15 Dec 2009, 19:30

What about trying some powdered mica first? It's almost as slippery and it won't stain your hands, clothes, (and everything else) black.

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Re: Lacquer coating solution

Post by gw45acp » 15 Dec 2009, 19:53

Some have used a PTFE-based dry lube and claimed that it helped. My results were mixed using dry lube on the rounds or in the PS90 mags.
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Re: Lacquer coating solution

Post by tdevince » 15 Dec 2009, 20:05

I noticed that after resizing the brass has a slightly larger diameter than does factory ammo. Even when loaded with brass that has no damage to the coating I get hang ups on resized brass. I wonder if the slightly larger brass diameter might have more to do with magazine feed issues on the PS90 than does the coating. I thought about having a die custom made so that I get identical diameters as factory brass, but so far have not pursued that issue. I've tried Hornady and Lee dies with the same results.

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Re: Lacquer coating solution

Post by Toynut » 16 Dec 2009, 04:25

Is it a uniform increase in diameter throughout the case body? If so, by how much?
There is always some case spring back after sizing. Generally, +1-3 thousand is the norm. It is also (remotely) possible that the cases are bulged a tiny bit during your crimp operation. That should not add to any even overall growth in the dimension throughout the entire case length, but instead, create a bulge at a specific area on the case.

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Re: Lacquer coating solution

Post by tdevince » 16 Dec 2009, 05:11

Toynut wrote:Is it a uniform increase in diameter throughout the case body? If so, by how much?
There is always some case spring back after sizing. Generally, +1-3 thousand is the norm. It is also (remotely) possible that the cases are bulged a tiny bit during your crimp operation. That should not add to any even overall growth in the dimension throughout the entire case length, but instead, create a bulge at a specific area on the case.
1. Yes its a uniform increase (no bulges) on the body.
2. Its only a few thousands more than factory ammo (don't remember exactly how much). I'm aware there is spring back, that's why I would want a custom die so that the finished product (after spring back) has the same diameter as the factory. The difference in diameter is enough that when I pull down and reload factory ammo (never fired brass), I'm able to neck size factory brass using the full length dies with the case fully inserted into the die. When I reload factory brass (never fired) I of course have no feed issues with the PS90 mags. I have no problem chambering rounds in either the pistol or rifle using resized brass, its just the mag feed issue with the PS90.
3. No bulge from crimping since I don't crimp.

The ammo works fine in the FsN, but when troubleshooting why I have a feed issues with reloaded brass in the PS90 mags this was one of the issues I found. I don't know if its indeed the cause without eliminating it as a possibility.

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gw45acp
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Re: Lacquer coating solution

Post by gw45acp » 16 Dec 2009, 07:50

This is something that had crossed my mind and I considered having a custom size die made similar to the EGW U die. The other option was to have a body die that would properly size the case after using the full length size die. Even a through die like a Lee bullet sizing die could be used to ensure the full length, including the case head is properly sized. Doing it this way could overwork the brass and reduce case life, but reliability was my main concern.

While I believe the dimensions may contribute to the the feed problems with the PS90, I think it still has more to do with the lubricating quality of the lacquer and how hot the loads are. After loading up rounds, I compared their feel and "slickness" to factory rounds and notice a significant difference between the Simple Green cleaned handloads vs. the factory loaded cases. The factory rounds feel noticeably more slick and I have very very few feed problems with them. That combined with dimensions and load recipe could be a cumulative problem that causes feeding issues.
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Re: Lacquer coating solution

Post by LK45s » 16 Dec 2009, 08:07

Do you think reducing the die diameter would cause more damage to the lacquer?
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gw45acp
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Re: Lacquer coating solution

Post by gw45acp » 16 Dec 2009, 08:19

LK45s wrote:Do you think reducing the die diameter would cause more damage to the lacquer?
The increased friction could definitely do more damage to the lacquer, especially if two steps are involved, both contacting the lacquered surface.
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Re: Lacquer coating solution

Post by tdevince » 16 Dec 2009, 13:34

gw45acp wrote:...While I believe the dimensions may contribute to the the feed problems with the PS90, I think it still has more to do with the lubricating quality of the lacquer and how hot the loads are. After loading up rounds, I compared their feel and "slickness" to factory rounds and notice a significant difference between the Simple Green cleaned handloads vs. the factory loaded cases. The factory rounds feel noticeably more slick and I have very very few feed problems with them. That combined with dimensions and load recipe could be a cumulative problem that causes feeding issues.
Interesting, I haven't checked the difference in lubricity between fired brass, cleaned brass and factory brass. Don't know if there is a different solution that preserves the quality of the brass better than Simple Green.

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gw45acp
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Re: Lacquer coating solution

Post by gw45acp » 16 Dec 2009, 13:50

I don't think it is the Simple Green that causes this. I think it is the expansion of the case after firing that may increase the grain or microscopic pitting and cracking of the lacquer. This is just supposition since I have no evidence to support this conclusion.
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Re: Lacquer coating solution

Post by gw45acp » 16 Dec 2009, 22:29

Tdevince got me thinking about the sized case dimensions. I did some comparisons on three unfired SS197SR cases vs. three 2x sized cases. I compared the measurements on three 2x fired sized cases to three factory SS197SR cases at the body below the shoulder, midpoint and at the bottom above the extractor rebate.

Shoulder
2x = .3102 - .3103
Unfired SS197SR = .3104 - .3116
Difference: 2x under-sized .0002 - .0014 (max)

Midpoint
2x = .3118 - .3124
Unfired SS197SR = .3108 - .3118
Difference: 2x over-sized .0010 to .0016 (max)

Webbing above extractor rebate
2x = .3133 - .3140
Unfired SS197SR = .3113 - .3116
Difference: 2x over-sized .0020 -.0027 (max)

I was surprised to see the 2x cases had a smaller dimension and closer tolerance at the shoulder compared to factory rounds. This dimensions will likely increase slightly when a bullet is seated. Between expansion from firing and the stresses from sizing, these seem to be reasonable dimensions and tolerances and they chamber well in both the FsN and the PS90. I think tdevince in on to something though. If you have as much as .0027 larger diameter near the extractor rebate, that could affect the way the cases roll in a PS90 magazine.

I also took some macro pictures of 2x and unfired cases. Sorry they aren't perfectly clear, but it was the best I could do with a point and shoot camera. The fired cases definitely have a rougher texture so I can understand why they may not feel as slick as the unfired factory cases, even though most of the lacquer coating is intact.

Between handloaded case dimensions and the condition of the case surface and coating, this could have a lot to do with the feeding problems in the PS90.

Left: 2x sized case. Right: Unfired SS197SR. Both are stamped 07. Notice the pitting or denting on the 2x vs. the unfired case. Some of that likely occurred during the sizing process.
Image

Top: 2x sized case. Bottom: Unfired SS197SR. It's hard to see, but notice the pits and scratches in the 2x case.
Image

Same, but from the case head view.
Image

Left: Unfired SS197SR. Right: 2x sized case. Notice the rough surface in the highlights on the 2x. This appears to be the brass that is rough more than the lacquer coating.
Image
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tdevince
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Re: Lacquer coating solution

Post by tdevince » 17 Dec 2009, 05:20

So we have two potential issues here.

1. Condition of the coating after firing
2. Case size after resizing.

A custom die could eliminate item 2, but its unknown if that would be sufficient to restore feed reliability to the PS90 mag by itself. To fix item 1 would require some sort of additional lubricant (possibly messy) or some means to "repair" the rougher coating. Maybe I'll go ahead and investigate the custom die. I think Lee wants a 6 month wait for a custom die.

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Re: Lacquer coating solution

Post by ddouglas » 17 Dec 2009, 09:04

To address issue #1 above, has anyone tried those teflon spray lubricants on the cases after they are reloaded? Typically, the liquid evaporates, leaving a thin, dry and slick coating on the surfaces spayed.

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f3rr37
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Re: Lacquer coating solution

Post by f3rr37 » 17 Dec 2009, 10:19

issue #1, does the condition of the lacquer depend on the condition of the chamber (lapped vs unlapped).

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Re: Lacquer coating solution

Post by tdevince » 17 Dec 2009, 10:22

Good question, my FsN is lapped. I look this weekend at the cases from it to compare with factory. Similar to what gw45acp posted.

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