First handloads - success

[Toprudder]

Lee dies (sizer, seater, collet crimper) all worked well. Sized cases checked at .312”, all chambered without issues. Since I don’t have a case gauge yet, I dropped each one into the rifle chamber to check. I first made dummy rounds to help get the dies adjusted. For those, I used Imperial sizing wax. For the test rounds, I used Royal spray case and die lube. I had no problems with the coating on the brass.

Bullets were Hornady 40 V-max seated to 1.580 OAL. Powder was True Blue, from 5.1 to 5.6 in 0.1 increment, 3 rounds of each charge. Shot from a Panzer AR57. They all fired and cycled fine. The set of 5.6 gave an average velocity of 2279fps and an extreme spread of 10. Quickload shows that charge to be ~38,000 psi which is well below the max. I believe the actual pressure was slightly higher as I was getting about 60fps more velocity than what Quickload predicted.

Next, I will try some FMJ factory seconds I got from Midway. I would really like something less expensive than the Hornady V-max bullets for plinking.

[towerofpower93]

That sounds like a great load. Moving at speed and with a low ES to boot.

I'd be interested to see what your ES/SD look like when you do a larger 1-20rd group past the chrono.

I think it might be time to pick up some True Blue as you and others using it seem to get good results.

[Toprudder]

I hope to load up a production run in the next week, once I’m off for the holiday. I’ll post the results here.

[skyrep]

Shot the Federal FMJ 40gr thru the Panzer 57AR:
Avg FPS: 1980, High: 2009, Low: 1925, SD: 23.2

I've loaded the Nosler 40gr Varmagedon with True Blue, Accurate #7 and #9 to test. Just waiting on warmer/drier weather to test.

[towerofpower93]

Is this with a 16" barrel?

[Toprudder]

Is this with a 16" barrel?

Yes.

[towerofpower93]

Is this with a 16" barrel?

Yes.

Thanks. Just want to keep that in mind looking at your load data and velocity data.

[Toprudder]

Is this with a 16" barrel?

Yes.

Thanks. Just want to keep that in mind looking at your load data and velocity data.

Yes, that is a very important piece of information that I neglected to mention. Thanks!

[Toprudder]

I went to the range yesterday, but forgot to bring my production run loads.

I did bring 10 rounds loaded with pistol primers just to see how they would work. I know that I am nowhere near max pressure, Quickload says they should be 38k psi. The pistol primers looked a little more stressed than the rifle primers after firing, but not bad. If I had too, I know I could drop the charge down a little and use pistol primers, but I will continue to use rifle primers.

I decided to try BE86 powder. (I only have a partial pound of True Blue, but I have several pounds of BE86.) There is no published data using that powder, so I did a lot of comparisons with other similar burn rate powders and compared the published data in other calibers. I did just one round each, starting at 4.6gn and going up to 5.4gn in 0.2gn increments. I figured if I did happen to have a case blow out, the mag on the AR57 would be damaged, so I single loaded every round into the chamber and left the mag on the bench. I would stop if I saw any pressure signs, or a velocity over 2300fps (16” barrel). I ended up shooting the whole range, with 5.4gn resulting in just under 2300. I’m going to make some more loads, from 5.0 to 5.4 in 0.1gn steps to zero in on a good load.

[Toprudder]

Standard disclaimer - my gun, my loads, my results. While they worked ok in my gun, they may not work well or even be safe in YOUR gun.

I went back to the range today to try out some more loads. I had some test loads in True Blue and BE86, 3 charge levels of each, and 5 rounds of each charge level.

Panzer AR57 upper, 16" barrel, 8.5oz buffer.
Win small rifle primers in all.
Hornady 40 Vmax seated to 1.580"
All shots at 50 yards.

BE86, 5.2gn, 2254fps, 15.3sd. Group size 1.3".
BE86, 5.3gn, 2278fps, 6.2sd. Group size 1.35".
BE86, 5.4gn, 2314fps, 6.0sd. Group size 2.5", counting one flyer.

True Blue 5.4gn, 2201fps, 17.1sd. Group size 1.2"
True Blue 5.5gn, 2224fps, 13.4sd. Group size 1.0"
True Blue 5.6gn, 2271fps, 14.3sd. Group size 2.3" counting one flyer

I'm not sure if the flyers were caused by me. Normally I know when I have pulled a shot, but it was hard for me to tell today. There was someone shooting in the lane next to me with a muzzle break, and it was a little annoying. Overall I was pleased with the results, though.

I also had some exploratory loads worked up using Power Pistol. The numbers I got from Quickload looked promising, so I though I would try it. I had just one round each charge. I had loads worked up with Hornady 40 Vmax as well as Hornady 35 Vmax.

The results at the highest charges tested:
Power Pistol 6.0gn, Hornady 40 Vmax, 2483fps
Power Pistol 6.5gn, Hornady 35 Vmax, 2682fps

I did not see pressure signs, and Quickload predicted very close to these number with the pressure less than 42k psi. I will work up some more loads to further explore this powder, with 5 rounds each charge.

[towerofpower93]

Those Power Pistol loads look zippy! Please keep us updated on what a larger dataset gives you. I’ve been thinking about buying a new powder for 5.7, as I’m almost out of Auto-Comp, and had been leaning towards True Blue, but if the PP gives you speeds like that without overpressure that’d be amazing.

[Toprudder]

I was at a gun show today and was talking with one vendor about powders, he said that Power Pistol was one that has not been available for a while.

I think Autocomp would be a good one to test, but that is one that I don’t have. If I try another powder, it will probably be AA#7, or LilGun.

I have been using Quickload looking for possible powders to try. So far, it has been fairly accurate in predicting velocities, I am gaining more confidence in it. When I was using it for traditional straight-wall pistol calibers, it just did not correlate well with my results.

I will mention that one thing to consider about my tests is that I am using an AR platform, with a very heavy buffer. The case extraction will be much slower than other guns and won’t suffer as much from pushed-out shoulders. I may end up buying a pistol (most likely the PSA Rock) just so I can compare results rifle-vs-pistol.

[towerofpower93]

I was at a gun show today and was talking with one vendor about powders, he said that Power Pistol was one that has not been available for a while.

I think Autocomp would be a good one to test, but that is one that I don’t have. If I try another powder, it will probably be AA#7, or LilGun.

I have been using Quickload looking for possible powders to try. So far, it has been fairly accurate in predicting velocities, I am gaining more confidence in it. When I was using it for traditional straight-wall pistol calibers, it just did not correlate well with my results.

I will mention that one thing to consider about my tests is that I am using an AR platform, with a very heavy buffer. The case extraction will be much slower than other guns and won’t suffer as much from pushed-out shoulders. I may end up buying a pistol (most likely the PSA Rock) just so I can compare results rifle-vs-pistol.

My one gripe with Auto-Comp comes from getting mag pops in the suppressed SBR'd PS90 while trying to load subsonic 55gr Hornady FMJBT projectiles. Shouldn't be surprised, as it's designed to be a gassy powder (so as to make the most of a comp on a pistol), but it was annoying. No issues with the mag popping with top end 40gr VMAX supersonic loads, but it has me wanting to try a different powder once my pound of AC is used up.

I'll keep my eyes peeled for some Power Pistol

[Toprudder]

I took more Power Pistol loads to the range to zero in on the best charges, checking for accuracy. I loaded up 5 rounds of each charge, 3 charges each for the 35vmax and 40vmax bullets. I found a good load for each. Shot from my Panzer AR57 16" barrel.

Power Pistol, Winchester WSR small rifle primers, velocity checked with Labradar.

Bullet OAL Charge Results
35 Vmax 1.490 6.4 2693.81fps, 10.65sd, 27.17es. 1.38" @50
35 Vmax 1.490 6.5 2740.26fps, 18.7sd, 44.47es. 0.56" @50 *** Best load for 35vmax
35 Vmax 1.490 6.6 2730.65fps, 46.76sd, 108es. 0.95" @50
40 Vmax 1.580 5.9 2466.24fps, 25.17sd, 55.62es. 1.51" @50
40 Vmax 1.580 6.0 2503.5fps, 29.39sd, 74.29es. 0.91" @50 *** Best load for 40vmax
40 Vmax 1.580 6.1 2530.37fps, 8.45sd, 22.2es. 1.7" @50

The 6.6gn 35vmax load had a very wide extreme spread, one outlier was particularly slow. I'm not sure why. All charges were measured with a Chargemaster.

I am very happy with the 35vmax bullet so far. I'm getting a larger extreme spread with Power Pistol as compared to True Blue.

I also took my production run of True Blue 40vmax loads. I shot 5 of those for reference (and for fouling shots) while I was at the range.

40 Vmax, 1.580 COL, 5.6gn True Blue, 2272fps, 4.82sd, 11.69es, 0.71" @50.

I did have one case separation, just behind the shoulder. It was with the lowest charge with the 40vmax bullet. I had no other pressure signs with that case or any others.

[panzermk2]

The stubby 35gr Vmax never really performed well for me. I suspect bullet OAL is the issue. Crimping is an issue. It is hard to get enough bullet in the neck for proper kneck tension and not start to encroach on the ogive.

Make sure to clean your chamber with Carb Clean.


That low charge is a nice plinker round. No reason you should have had a separation with it unless the case was more than 1x.

[skyrep]

Have you noticed your barrel speeding up with the increase of rounds thru it? My initial testing factory Ammo with the Federal 40gr FMJ was avg MV 1980 fps. After firing 100 more rounds, the second testing with same Federal 40gr FMJ was 2017 fps. Currently have less than 200 rounds through it. Hoping to start load development for the AR57 soon (waiting of the weather to get better).

[Toprudder]

Can’t say that I have seen an increase in velocity with more rounds. The first batch of 40 Vmax with 5.6gn of True Blue have been the fastest, and I suspect that may have been because of temperature and the fact I may have crimped those a little tighter.

[JohnG]

Have you done any more experimenting with BE86? I typically use TrueBlue but have about 40lbs of BE86 and just haven’t gotten through all my True Blue yet (still about 20lbs).

[Toprudder]

Have you done any more experimenting with BE86? I typically use TrueBlue but have about 40lbs of BE86 and just haven’t gotten through all my True Blue yet (still about 20lbs).

No, I have not done much else with 5.7 and BE86. I will be trying some more soon, I just picked up a S&W 5.7 recently and want to see how my loads performed.

[Toprudder]

I had the chance to try my Power Pistol and BE86 loads in a S&W M&P pistol. Here are the results. (I have a more complete write up on the S&W in the Handgun section). 10 rounds shot in each test group.

Hornady 40 Vmax, 6.0gn Power Pistol: 2057 fps average, 12.6 SD, 48 extreme spread.
Hornady 35 Vmax, 6.5gn Power Pistol: 2200 fps average, 11.3 SD, 38 extreme spread.
Hornady 40 Vmax, 5.4gn BE86: 1878 fps average, 14.9 SD, 40 extreme spread.

The primers with the two Power Pistol loads showed a very slight cratering, consistently with all rounds fired. These loads had been worked up using my AR57 and did not have cratering, but I think I will back off these loads slightly in the future. I had one primer blow out, but I believe the primer pocket may have been loose to begin with. The BE86 load worked well, with no signs of pressure. The shoulders on all rounds were pushed out just slightly, but not as much as the ones shot from my AR57.

Velocity comparison between the S&W pistol and 16" AR57.

Load S&W AR57
Hornady 40V, PP 6.0gn 2057 2503
Hornady 35V, PP 6.5gn 2200 2740
Hornady 40V, BE86 5.4gn 1878 2314

[JohnG]

Awesome Toprudder! Looks good. I am going to give BE-86 A chance, for if nothing else, to have an alternative powder outside of AA#7. After loading about 4,000 of these now, I only reload a case 2x and throw it away. The primer pockets give out first right as the case coating begins to exhibit degradation. I could probably load it one more time but the shoulders move quite a bit out the carbine and that is where I have the most fun.

[panzermk2]

I had the chance to try my Power Pistol and BE86 loads in a S&W M&P pistol. Here are the results. (I have a more complete write up on the S&W in the Handgun section). 10 rounds shot in each test group.

Hornady 40 Vmax, 6.0gn Power Pistol: 2057 fps average, 12.6 SD, 48 extreme spread.
Hornady 35 Vmax, 6.5gn Power Pistol: 2200 fps average, 11.3 SD, 38 extreme spread.
Hornady 40 Vmax, 5.4gn BE86: 1878 fps average, 14.9 SD, 40 extreme spread.

The primers with the two Power Pistol loads showed a very slight cratering, consistently with all rounds fired. These loads had been worked up using my AR57 and did not have cratering, but I think I will back off these loads slightly in the future. I had one primer blow out, but I believe the primer pocket may have been loose to begin with. The BE86 load worked well, with no signs of pressure. The shoulders on all rounds were pushed out just slightly, but not as much as the ones shot from my AR57.

Velocity comparison between the S&W pistol and 16" AR57.

Load S&W AR57
Hornady 40V, PP 6.0gn 2057 2503
Hornady 35V, PP 6.5gn 2200 2740
Hornady 40V, BE86 5.4gn 1878 2314

Yeah your 6.0 of PP is well above the 50k max.

[Toprudder]

“Yeah your 6.0 of PP is well above the 50k max.“

I am not doubting you, but what are you basing that on? What would you say is a safe charge of Power Pistol?

I ran the numbers through Quickload, which calculated the max pressure at 42396 psi, which is 15% below MAP. I’ve always been a little leery of Quickload when it comes to straight-walled cartridges, but not so much with bottleneck.

[panzermk2]

Because QL uses government models developed years ago. One being shooting a 30.06 over a lake at dead calm night and measuring the distance and time of the splash.

The 5.7 operates at the edges of these models. The farther you move away from the baseline the less accurate the models. This is why I never really liked QL.


Example Burn rates, if you know anything about them you will see that all the manufacturers always add the disclaimer about not trusting them. Normally burn rates are calculated by burning powder in a sealed chamber and measuring the expansion in time and pressure. An average is created. that data is then combined with chronograph tests using a special 9mm test rounds. Well that's all good for common rounds. Then along comes the 5.7 with a very small pressure vessel and operating much higher than normal for ANY pistol cartridge and most rifle cartridges.

So you take PP, designed to work in pistols at average pistol volume and pressures. QL also uses these same models in their sym. These sym are based in part by data provided by the powder maker. Again using a common, middle of the road 9mm, I can't remember the details in the 9mm and the test, I would have to look it up. I knew it years ago but it's totally irrelevant to what I do. So you take PP, you load a small amount of it, compared to the normally models, and then run it at least 20k PSI higher than it was designed for. It changes everything about the powder, again keeping in mind QL is using standard models, it's burn rate, it's rate of Inflammation, (had to through that in, ) all that generic data goes out the window.

One example would be AA7. Notice if you look into the forum how folks talk about how great it is until you get close to max load? Over 45kPIS? You see comments about how spiky it gets near the limits and guys have to back down. Again powder was designed for a window. AA7 works great below 45kPSI . QL sym can't adjust for the spikes in AA7 above 45kPSI because it just can't see them.



Another Win 296, it's a slow burning, hi volume powder perfect for 44 mag with max PSI under 40k. When you start loading 296 above 45k it's burn rate is FASTER than True Blue. Combine that with the large flaky ball powder being metered into a small case and it a recipe for disaster.



I also have my own pressure testing system I invented for the 5.7x28mm. When I ran tests, many years ago, I could see exactly where QL was falling short. Using thousands of rounds fired through my system I was able to go into the core code of QL and make adjustments to get my version of QL to be within real world +/- less then 5%.

While I still have it, I relay on my data. I have half a dozen composition books filled with real world test data going back over 20 years, often all I have to do is look up what I need.


Hope I covered everything, first thing in the morning and the coffee has not kicked in, Also missed the drop of my own damn video on the M&P57

[Toprudder]

So do you have any Power Pistol pressure testing data?

I went back and looked at my QL data, and it was within 20fps of my measured velocities, so I have to wonder how far off it was on pressure. My results so far with QL have been fairly close with my results in 5.7 loads. The first thing I did was to run published loads through QL before I decided to trust it for unpublished loads.

I do realize that powders have a range of pressure where they tend to work best, and I usually see that on the low end when the extreme spreads and standard deviations are terrible, but I admit that I have rarely ventured much outside the top end. I have to believe that if a powder is getting spikey that it would be seen in the spreads and deviations, or at least start to show a non-linear charge/velocity curve.