Neck Separation w/ 6.6 grains VV 3N38

Reloading info for the 5.7x28mm

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Kiran04
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Re: Neck Separation w/ 6.6 grains VV 3N38

Post by Kiran04 » 20 Aug 2015, 12:16

panzermk2 wrote:Hard to see how much of a ring, slice a case open and check.

But if you're getting separations is might be a really good idea to back off a little.

Kinda a bitch when you get one, don't catch it and then shoot the next round through the piece of neck in the chamber.

It's hard on the gun and harder on your hand.
Mine didn't even chamber. The piece of neck kept the next round from going into battery. That's why I couldn't figure out what was wrong right away until I checked out the brass.

Kiran04
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Re: Neck Separation w/ 6.6 grains VV 3N38

Post by Kiran04 » 22 Aug 2015, 19:03

Ok, so I finished off that batch of 6.6 grainers at 1.591" and the rounds were a little on the smokey side. The shoulder movement looked about the same as the American Eagle 40 grain FMJs, but someone else must have been shooting 5.7 at the outdoor range. I found myself standing in a pool of it with way more brass than I started with, so I was only able to track down a few from my reload batch that I could definitively say were mine. The rest got lost in all the other brass at the range, which was fine with me, since I just picked it all up and walked off with it. The case heads didn't look anymore or less dented than the American Eagle stuff either. Given that the rounds gave off some smoke, I'm gonna go ahead and run a ladder from 6.0 - 6.4 at 1.580". I already have a batch loaded up, just need to shoot it. I am going to put it through the rifle first.

Kiran04
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Re: Neck Separation w/ 6.6 grains VV 3N38

Post by Kiran04 » 30 Aug 2015, 09:57

Alright, so I got my shiny new chronograph and a ladder of rounds from 6.0 grains 3N38 VV to 6.4 grains at a new length of 1.580". I reneged on my promise to shoot it from the rifle first and went straight to the FSN, since that is sort of the benchmark for the round anyways. I took my first shot string and... everything went perfect! Not only was the ammunition accurate, but the shots were super smooth and not a puff of smoke in site. The ejection at 6.0 was a tad on erratic side, but the ejection consistently improved as the load got hotter all the way up to 6.4, when everything including velocity, seemed to taper off. I only loaded 5 rounds at 6.4 grains and 10 at every other load because I suspected 6.4 would be on the hot side and didn't want to have to pull bullets if it was too hot. Here are my results:

6.0 grains, VV 3N38, Nosler 40 grain Ballistic Tip, CCI 400 Small Rifle, Trim 1.131" OAL 1.580"
1857
1775
1814
1787
1752
1754
1763
1761
1773
Avg 1781, Extreme Spread 105, Standard Deviation: 34

6.1 grains
1796
1792
1799
1804
1777
1777
1740
1849
1828
1839
Avg 1800, Extreme Spread 109, Standard Deviation: 32

6.2 grains
1821
1821
1811
1862
1819
1809
1823
1821
1854
Avg 1826, Extreme Spread 53, Standard Deviation: 18

6.3 grains
1826
1841
1834
1851
1859
1844
1831
1839
1854
Avg 1842, Extreme Spread 33, Standard Deviation: 11

6.4 grains
1851
1834
1841
1834
1851
Avg 1842, Extreme Spread 17, Standard Deviation: 11

A few strings had one shot that failed to register on the chrono, but with 10 shot groups it wasn't a big deal. 6.0 grains had one shot register at 4321, which I was pretty sure was wrong, so I deleted it. Ejection consistency continued to improve until 6.4 grains when it seemed to be the same as 6.3. I also stopped noticing quantifiable velocity gains at that load, but I did only load 5 rounds. 6.3 also had the most consistent velocity and the lowest standard deviation from the mean. All casings were extremely clean when I recovered them, although I was unable to locate 1 out of the 45 I fired and was extremely irked. All primer pockets looked fine. No signs of excessive shoulder movement even at 6.4 grains. I suspect going hotter is possible, but I don't see any potential for round improvement other than some very minor velocity gains, which I don't find to be worth it. I am very pleased with rounds consistently over the the 1800 FPS mark at 40 grains of bullet. They shoot very accurately, feel smooth as silk, eject well, and don't wreck the casing. Even my mean ejection marks aren't as noticeable in this grain range. I think I'm going to stick with 6.3 grains because it was the lowest standard deviation and most consistent cartridge performance. I've essentially just come up with a faster, straighter SS197SR, which was more or less the goal, but at ~$.28 a round as opposed to >$.40 a round. VV 3N38 seems to be quite amazing stuff. I will move on the 30 grain varmint grenade and try to break the 2100 fps mark, so stay tuned. I'm also going to put a few of my SS197YK(Yagami Kiran) into some ballistics gel and see what kinds of gooey goodness I can destroy. Reloading the 5.7x28 FN cartridge sure is tricky, but this is the most fun I've had reloading since ever!

DoubleJ
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Re: Neck Separation w/ 6.6 grains VV 3N38

Post by DoubleJ » 30 Aug 2015, 11:51

Good on ya for getting a chrono. As you can see in your avg velocities, you gained ~20 fps with each increase in charge weight, until 6.4 where you gained zero. You only shot 5, but it gives you an idea of where you're at. I'd call 6.3 your top load, and even consider 6.2 depending on temperature and such. If it was 100 out today, then you can pretty safely call 6.3 tops, but if it was a mild day, dropping another tenth to account for hotter days, shells in the sun, mag dumps ect probably wouldn't hurt. Something else I see there is a consistent drop in ES as your charge gets heavier, making me think maybe your VV powder is a bit slower and harder to ignite. Is it a ball powder? I don't recall what primer you're using, but maybe another ladder with something hotter like a 450, BR-4, 7.5, or the mil one that escapes my memory right now (39?) and stop at 6.3. See if your ES numbers drop and velocity comes up.

Kiran04
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Re: Neck Separation w/ 6.6 grains VV 3N38

Post by Kiran04 » 30 Aug 2015, 13:09

CCI 400 Small Rifle. Temperature was about 84 F. I think 6.3 is the way to go. The gun was pretty clean too after firing all 45 rounds. I can try some other primer types. CCI was just really easy to get a hold of. I'll try 450. The powder is really light and flaky. It's not large and round like ball powder. My auto-charger kinda hates 3N38. It acts like it's dying when the powder is that light, but it still gets the job done and gives me a consistent charge.

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panzermk2
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Re: Neck Separation w/ 6.6 grains VV 3N38

Post by panzermk2 » 30 Aug 2015, 17:11

You where at the max when the velocities leveled off. Instead of pushing the bullet faster you where stretching the case instead.

Do not fire a load like this in your PS90, it won't like it and it will end poorly.
Jay Wolf
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DoubleJ
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Re: Neck Separation w/ 6.6 grains VV 3N38

Post by DoubleJ » 30 Aug 2015, 21:23

Flake powder should ignite just fine from a normal primer. Hell, a pistol primer would probably do it. It's certainly on the slower end of suitable powders for the 5.7, but it's not mad slow. At this point I'm over my head and I don't want to steer you in the wrong direction. Hotter primer will light it up a bit faster, but it may get your bullet moving before the powder is burning properly and cause a SEE. I'd assume you've also got good case fill with it, like Blue Dot? If it was me, I'd settle at 6.2 for a little safety margin, or maybe lower if you want a load that runs your carbine as well. You've outrun factory loads and saved money doing it, that's a win.

Kiran04
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Re: Neck Separation w/ 6.6 grains VV 3N38

Post by Kiran04 » 31 Aug 2015, 07:13

According to the burn rate chart, 3N38 is #48 while True Blue is #40. 3N38 is slower than True Blue, but faster than Longshot. It's also faster than Accurate #7, but slower than Accurate #5. I can try a few 450s and see how they work out. I'm just anxious to finalize this load so I can start mass producing. I'm also working on a 30 grain varmint grenade load and plan to try the Lehigh 45 grain bullets, though I'll probably have to change powders for the heavier bullet since 3N38 is listed for smaller, faster projectiles.

Oldbindlestiff
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Re: Neck Separation w/ 6.6 grains VV 3N38

Post by Oldbindlestiff » 31 Aug 2015, 08:19

Hotter primer? :huh: :skep: Not in my pistol or hand. You may value yours less. IMHO, quit while you still have all the pieces and parts intact.
Karma. Serving up justice one a**hole at a time.

Kiran04
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Re: Neck Separation w/ 6.6 grains VV 3N38

Post by Kiran04 » 13 Sep 2015, 14:34

SUCCESS!

Using 6.9 grains of VV3N38, an OAL of 1.525", CCI 400 small rifle primers, and a Lee Factory Crimp on a 30 grain Varmint Grenade yielded a result of 2140 FPS avg. Data is as follows:

2129
2140
2123
2150
2160
2140 avg, 37 ES, 15 Std Dev

I put a Lee Factory Crimp on the rounds and those little buggers were screaming. I think I might like these the best. A shame they're flat based. At least the 35 grain NTXs are boat tailed. I haven't lost faith in them though, if I can reliably get them up over the 2k mark.
Last edited by Kiran04 on 15 Sep 2015, 08:44, edited 1 time in total.

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panzermk2
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Re: Neck Separation w/ 6.6 grains VV 3N38

Post by panzermk2 » 13 Sep 2015, 17:33

FYI I have over 10 burncharts one with over 500 powders, and none of them agree.
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DoubleJ
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Re: Neck Separation w/ 6.6 grains VV 3N38

Post by DoubleJ » 13 Sep 2015, 19:15

If you get bored, re-run them without the crimp, curious how much a difference it makes. I know you'd have to run hundreds for a scientific test, but even 10 might give us an idea.

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