Primer Problem

Reloading info for the 5.7x28mm

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Bazzer69
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Primer Problem

Post by Bazzer69 » 06 May 2015, 12:40

On a few of my reloads I have been getting a primer problem. There is a small hole on the shoulder and a tiny crack running down to the base of the shell they meet. I have been using Remington small pistol primers, 4.9 grains of Power Pistol and 40grain V-Max. Is it defective primers? Or is my 4.9 grain too hot? There is no evidence of flattening of the primers.
What is the difference between pistol and rifle primers? Are the rifle primers stronger and should I be using those?

Bazzer

GONRA
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Re: Primer Problem

Post by GONRA » 06 May 2015, 12:57

GONRA's not sure wots going on here.
Is your FIRED PRIMER CUP CRACKED? If so, check your FRESH, UNFIRED primers for cracked cups.
Difficult to see, but you can with care...

Or are you talkng about something else? Cracked cartridge case? ???

Best to use SMALL PISTOL MAGNUM or SMALL RIFLE primers.
These are absolutely identical with some manufacturers, just different labeling.

Do NOT use small rifle magnum or small rifle military primers.

Bazzer69
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Re: Primer Problem

Post by Bazzer69 » 06 May 2015, 13:40

Cracked primer cases for sure. It looks like it's burnt a small ring on the breech face as well. Is it the crack causing the hole or the hole causing the crack? I'll pull a few of the other spent primers and see if there are any cracks in those.

DoubleJ
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Re: Primer Problem

Post by DoubleJ » 06 May 2015, 15:38

Sure it's not gas leakage from high pressure? Can you get some pictures for us?

Bazzer69
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Re: Primer Problem

Post by Bazzer69 » 06 May 2015, 17:35

DoubleJ wrote:Sure it's not gas leakage from high pressure? Can you get some pictures for us?
I'll try for pictures tomorrow . But my research via Google tells me that pistol primers are not designed for the pressures from a rifle cartridge which the 5.7 is. I've loaded a couple of dozen with Winchester small rifle primers to test.

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DoubleJ
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Re: Primer Problem

Post by DoubleJ » 06 May 2015, 20:30

I've used pistol primers on plinking loads for the 5.7, didn't see any early pressure signs. It's a funny round as far as pressure goes. Dented necks, dirty cases, smoky loads can all show up before your primers will flatten. My new barrel moves shoulders so far forward that you'd think I'm running everything at 70k PSI, and that's with 197. Best bet is just to work up slow and safe until you've got a lot of reloads under your belt. I've been loading for it for about 2 years, and I'm still learning the cartridge.

We'll see what those pics look like, then maybe we can figure out what's going on.

By the by, what other calibers do you reload for, and how long have you been at it?

Bazzer69
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Re: Primer Problem

Post by Bazzer69 » 06 May 2015, 20:51

All my cases are once shot, I resize, decap and trim. The cases are then ultrasonicly cleaned. I then check the OAL with calipers and check the cases with the EA go/ no go gauge. I reload with a Dillon 550. My powder drops are checked with a scale every now and then. They never vary by more than .1 grain, usually they are all the same. The primers I have had for a while, Remington small pistol. After the rounds are completed I check them again by weighing and with the EA gauge.
None of the primers show signs of flattening, neither do the shoulders look bad. No dents or signs of damage other than a small mark from the extractor. I am not putting any crimp on my rounds either. My max powder charge of 4.9 grains of Pistol Powder is below that in my load data. I have reloaded some ss190's and they shoot just fine with no signs of over pressure.
Shoulders moving to far forward could be a result of to slow a burning powders. I haven't measured how far mine move since I don't know what the specs are. But my reloads look the same as factory ammo.
I reload 38's and 357. In the past I've done a bunch of rifle calibers. The 5.7 x 28 is a tricky reload, but not impossible. My research shows that pistol and rifle primers differ in the strength of the case since rifle rounds generally work at higher pressures. I just done half a box of reloads using Wincester Rifle Primers and I'll shoot those in the morning. I'll try the photos, I think I can manage the macros needed, but it's a pain to put them on this forum.

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GONRA
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Re: Primer Problem

Post by GONRA » 07 May 2015, 04:40

OK - its the PRIMER CUP that leaks.

GONRA suggests reviewing how / if you remove primer crimp.
If this is screwed up, can leak and pit the pistol breech face.

Swaging out the primer crimp (Dillon unit verks great!) is best.
(Some on this site say its best to just leave the primer crimp
"as is" but its difficult to figgerout how that verks!)

As you know, wotever is happening SHOULDN'T !!!

Bazzer69
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Re: Primer Problem

Post by Bazzer69 » 07 May 2015, 14:16

This morning I shot 33 rounds with the Winchester small rifle primers and not one issue. I can't measure speed, but recoil felt a little sharper. The problem primers are made from some kind of steel alloy, whereas the Winchester's look like brass. Brass will stretch more than steel so it makes sense. I'm going to reload a lot ore and shoot them and see how it goes. Unfortunately the holes in my original reloads have left a little pitting in the breach face. Not so bad as to need replacement

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DoubleJ
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Re: Primer Problem

Post by DoubleJ » 07 May 2015, 19:39

Steel primers you say? I figured they were all made of brass or copper or some similar alloy. Still want some pics though, I'm having trouble seeing what happened in my head.

Bazzer69
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Re: Primer Problem

Post by Bazzer69 » 07 May 2015, 21:59

DoubleJ wrote:Steel primers you say? I figured they were all made of brass or copper or some similar alloy. Still want some pics though, I'm having trouble seeing what happened in my head.
Not sure what the metal is in the defective primers, but being silver they might be a alloy of some kind. But the Winchester rifle primers look like brass to me. I've been too busy to get around to some pictures, but I will asap.

GONRA
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Re: Primer Problem

Post by GONRA » 08 May 2015, 13:32

GONRA suggests you Email Remington with the exact nomenclature and lot number, also a CONCISE STORY on it all.
Fact that Remington's screwed up and Winchester's didn't should get their attention.
(Hopefully you have some Remington's remaining to send back!)

>>> Verk at it - a short punchy Email - FACTS ONLY. <<<

Late 1950's - CCI had cracked cups in unplated brass Large Rifle primers. (CCI's original product! Still have 100's....)
Not too loong ago, same thing in their .50 BMG primers. (Hava lotta these too, but never noticed any cracks....)

These issues seem to involve not annealing cups after forming, brass sheet that wasn't completely suitable, etc.

Bazzer69
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Re: Primer Problem

Post by Bazzer69 » 08 May 2015, 19:34

GONRA wrote:GONRA suggests you Email Remington with the exact nomenclature and lot number, also a CONCISE STORY on it all.
Fact that Remington's screwed up and Winchester's didn't should get their attention.
(Hopefully you have some Remington's remaining to send back!)

>>> Verk at it - a short punchy Email - FACTS ONLY. <<<

Late 1950's - CCI had cracked cups in unplated brass Large Rifle primers. (CCI's original product! Still have 100's....)
Not too loong ago, same thing in their .50 BMG primers. (Hava lotta these too, but never noticed any cracks....)

These issues seem to involve not annealing cups after forming, brass sheet that wasn't completely suitable, etc.
Thanks Gonra, I'll do that. I had to drive several hundred miles today so I haven't had time for photos. I'll try soon, promise.
Although the Reminton primers look like a alloy, maybe they are plated brass.

Bazzer69
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Re: Primer Problem

Post by Bazzer69 » 17 May 2015, 19:34

Don't think primers make much difference, then look at this!
http://www.6mmbr.com/primerpix.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Bazzer69
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Re: Primer Problem

Post by Bazzer69 » 17 May 2015, 19:54

And look at this, it's a long read, but worth it.
http://www.sksboards.com/smf/?topic=56422.0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My conclusion is that primer choice is very important, not only to prevent the problem I had with cracked cups, but the amount of "Flash" from a primer will surely effect the speed of burn of the powder and ultimately the pressure generated. So one persons "hot" load might well lead to a kaboom for another using the same powder and amount, but just using a different primer. I always start a couple of grains below the load data and work up to a max. Well, that's for hot loads, for plinking I keep well below the max.
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grimmond
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Re: Primer Problem

Post by grimmond » 18 May 2015, 10:17

Bazzer, I do not want to sound condescending. But based upon what you just posted you should not be reloading until you do alot more reading about reloading. You especially should not be reloading the 5.7x28 round. That knowledge is basic to reloading any caliber, and as you just figured out can be a kb in the 5.7...I only want the best for people and would hate to hear of another person having their firearm blow up causing injuries. Please be safe and get more reloading books.
"Let us never forget that good intelligence saves American lives and protects our freedom."
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Bazzer69
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Re: Primer Problem

Post by Bazzer69 » 18 May 2015, 10:28

grimmond wrote:Bazzer, I do not want to sound condescending. But based upon what you just posted you should not be reloading until you do alot more reading about reloading. You especially should not be reloading the 5.7x28 round. That knowledge is basic to reloading any caliber, and as you just figured out can be a kb in the 5.7...I only want the best for people and would hate to hear of another person having their firearm blow up causing injuries. Please be safe and get more reloading books.
Why is it that everyone on this forum wants to reply with condescending replies? I've probably been reloading and shooting longer than most of the posters on this thread have been alive. I just thought I might share some information with others.
Guess what mate, I shan't bother to post on here much longer as long as everyone who are master reloaders treat me like a idot.

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grimmond
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Re: Primer Problem

Post by grimmond » 18 May 2015, 11:21

Bazzer as I said I was not trying to be not sound condescending. Maybe I just mistook the way you had posted as a new person to reloading posting freshly learned info. You may very well be an experienced reloader but your choice of words and they way you stated the information portrayed you as someone new to it. I apologize if my comment made you feel that I was treating you as an idiot. That was not my intent.
"Let us never forget that good intelligence saves American lives and protects our freedom."
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GONRA
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Re: Primer Problem

Post by GONRA » 19 May 2015, 12:36

GONRA nitpicking:
Bazzer69 should attempt to edit his posts to replace "primer cases" by "primer cups".
Makes an easier read...

Bazzer69
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Re: Primer Problem

Post by Bazzer69 » 19 May 2015, 22:48

GONRA wrote:GONRA nitpicking:
Bazzer69 should attempt to edit his posts to replace "primer cases" by "primer cups".
Makes an easier read...

Can you mention to Gonra that my English is English being a Brit and I'm trying to speak American. I've always, probably in error, called them cases, but of course Gonra is correct and I should call them "cups". To me a cup is what you drink tea out of or they are used in a bra. :D

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