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Anyone have any data for CFE Pistol?

Posted: 08 Jun 2014, 16:50
by DHKnecht
Ramshot True Blue is next to impossible to find, as are most of the other powders with data. However, I was able to pick up a couple of pounds of the new CFE Pistol powder from Hodgdon. It is used in everything from .380 AP, 9mm, .40 S&W to .45 AP. Hodgdon shows its burn rate in the chart below (The number on the left is the powders ranking on the list, with the lower number being the faster powder, but there is no set increment in burn speed between the numbers). In any event, it looks like CFE Pistol burns somewhere between HS-6 and HS-7. So, has anyone tried this in the 5.7x28mm cartridge yet? If so, what were your charges and what were the results?

29 Winchester 231
40 Ramshot True Blue
41 Accurate Arms No. 5
42 Hodgdon HS-6
43 Winchester AutoComp
44 Hodgdon CFE Pistol
45 Ramshot Silhouette
46 VihtaVuori 3N37
47 VihtaVuori N350
48 Hodgdon HS-7
49 VihtaVuori 3N38
50 Alliant Blue Dot
51 Accurate Arms No. 7

Re: Anyone have any data for CFE Pistol?

Posted: 09 Jun 2014, 20:13
by ddouglas
Using a powder's burn rate is not a good criteria to use, by itself, to load a cartridge. I don't know enough about interior ballistics to offer an alternative, but that very question about using True Blue for use with a .17 Hornet load came up. I asked Hornady if True Blue would be OK for .17HH because it's close to AA1680 in burn rate. (AA1680 is recommended for .17HH, but apparently not available). Hornady replied that TB wasn't suitable....

I suggest you call CFE and ask them if they have any data or could suggest a starting load.

Re: Anyone have any data for CFE Pistol?

Posted: 30 Jun 2014, 19:38
by Wagonbacker9
By itself, no, but its certainly a valid question, and seeing as hodgedon doesn't have any data for this round, I doubt they're going to offer any for CFE Pistol... I'm also curious if anyones worked anything up yet.

CFE Pistol in 5.7?

Posted: 17 Jul 2014, 10:29
by Wagonbacker9
Like most, I'm putting my hands on whatever I can find, and I was lucky enough to acquire a pound of CFE pistol. I see NO one out there in internet land that has attempted it in 5.7x28, and though the burn rate is in range, I have no idea if it would be an appropriate powder in this cartridge.

Anyone care to offer advice?

I have 25gr and 40 gr vmaxes available as well as barnes 36gr hollow points.

Re: Anyone have any data for CFE Pistol?

Posted: 17 Jul 2014, 12:31
by Rapier1772
Merged w/original thread.
I'd assume a lack of response here means no one has tried it & no one wants to steer you wrong.

Have you contacted Hodgdon? I checked their website but they don't even have the 5.7 listed on their data pages.

Re: Anyone have any data for CFE Pistol?

Posted: 17 Jul 2014, 16:48
by DoubleJ
I contacted Hodgdon.

This is what they said:

We have no data of any kind for this cartridge. FN does not wish to participate in the American standards for ammunition (SAAMI) so there is no standard for pressure, velocity, dimension nor is there reference ammo to calibrate transducers and barrels. There have also been several instances of ruptured cases resulting in damaged firearms and a couple of injured shooters resulting from the lack of standardized ammo. Until such time that FN joins SAAMI and works with US Ammo standards, you will not see anything in the way of data from reliable sources.

Re: Anyone have any data for CFE Pistol?

Posted: 17 Jul 2014, 19:48
by Rapier1772
DoubleJ wrote: you will not see anything in the way of data from reliable sources.
I resent that! If I say my loads are reliable, they are! :laugh:

Thanks DoubleJ

Re: Anyone have any data for CFE Pistol?

Posted: 17 Jul 2014, 20:33
by DoubleJ
Funny how the holy grail of 5.7 powders, HS-7, happens to also be a Hodgdon product. I also sent them an email about bringing it back, they didn't respond...

Maybe someone with QuickLoad could run the numbers on CFE? I think the idea of copper fouling in my 9mm is silly, but it's totally plausible if you're shooting light stuff in your FSN or 90. I've also found CFE to be cleaner and quieter through my Tirant than AA7, while I've found Longshot to be as loud as a deck gun on a battleship through my FSN. Another powder choice would be nice.

Re: Anyone have any data for CFE Pistol?

Posted: 17 Jul 2014, 23:36
by panzermk2
Once my brass is finalized I will start the process for SAMMI certification.

Re: Anyone have any data for CFE Pistol?

Posted: 18 Jul 2014, 08:20
by bruteandbear1
Longshot is definitely the louder than any powder I have loaded in fsn BUT it is the most reliable gun powder I have ever used for this cartridge. I just got done loading 500 of My 2000 round case of SS198 with Longshot and I have no complaints at all.

Re: Anyone have any data for CFE Pistol?

Posted: 18 Jul 2014, 09:35
by Wagonbacker9
Rapier1772 wrote:Merged w/original thread.
Apologies, I thought this thread was on another forum.
DoubleJ wrote:Until such time that FN joins SAAMI and works with US Ammo standards, you will not see anything in the way of data from reliable sources.
So I guess that makes Western "unreliable"?
Rapier1772 wrote:I'd assume a lack of response here means no one has tried it & no one wants to steer you wrong.
I'd take it on trying it myself, but the only thing I could even imagine for a starting point would be to use an equivalent ratio of starting load for AA5 or AA7 based off a 9mm case, and that sounds FAR too risky to me, seeing as I have only a fundamental understanding about what makes a powder suitable or not.

Re: Anyone have any data for CFE Pistol?

Posted: 18 Jul 2014, 18:11
by DoubleJ
bruteandbear1 wrote:Longshot is definitely the louder than any powder I have loaded in fsn BUT it is the most reliable gun powder I have ever used for this cartridge. I just got done loading 500 of My 2000 round case of SS198 with Longshot and I have no complaints at all.
I've been using Longshot in my 500Mag as well, and the concussion from the comp is retarded, although the velocities are modest. Not sure why we needed Autocomp when that stuff was already on the market.

Re: Anyone have any data for CFE Pistol?

Posted: 18 Jul 2014, 21:19
by grimmond
Wagonbacker9 wrote: I'd take it on trying it myself, but the only thing I could even imagine for a starting point would be to use an equivalent ratio of starting load for AA5 or AA7 based off a 9mm case, and that sounds FAR too risky to me, seeing as I have only a fundamental understanding about what makes a powder suitable or not.
I would have no issues with experimenting with that powder after comparing its posted loads to other posted loads from powders already tried and tested that are used in the FSN. I have been looking for some to test with and have not found any yet.

I will put this out there as an option for anyone who has this powder or access to it, I will trade you 1 lb of True Blue or Hodgdons Longshot powder for 1 lb of CFE pistol. Send me a PM if you are interested. If I find some or someone trades me for some, I will test it and post the loads for all.

Re: Anyone have any data for CFE Pistol?

Posted: 21 Jul 2014, 07:49
by Wagonbacker9
grimmond wrote:
Wagonbacker9 wrote: I'd take it on trying it myself, but the only thing I could even imagine for a starting point would be to use an equivalent ratio of starting load for AA5 or AA7 based off a 9mm case, and that sounds FAR too risky to me, seeing as I have only a fundamental understanding about what makes a powder suitable or not.
I would have no issues with experimenting with that powder after comparing its posted loads to other posted loads from powders already tried and tested that are used in the FSN. I have been looking for some to test with and have not found any yet.
Shipping being difficult, if you want to educate me on how you'd go about development I'd take it on.

Heres a quick table, I used 9mm because theres a full compliment of data, and 380 because its also a tiny sensitive case:

| 40gr vmax 5.7x28 | 115 JHP 9mm | 90Gr XTP 380Auto
Longshot | 5.2-6.0 (my load) | 5.0-6.0 | ~4.9 (estimated, unpublished)
AA5 | 5.1-5.7 | 5.4-6.3 | 4.3-4.8
AA7 | 6.1-6.8 | 6.4-7.5 | 5.9-6.5
CFE | ??????? | 4.9-5.4 | 3.7-4.2

So using the AA5 data (closest burn rate), I get a 4.4-5.0 range... but change powders and the ratios don't come out anywhere near close.

Re: Anyone have any data for CFE Pistol?

Posted: 21 Jul 2014, 21:55
by grimmond
I ran a bunch of calculations and comparative data and based on that it should be able to be taken up to 5.4gr.. But I personally would start start it at 4.0gr shooting 5 rounds and increasing it in .1gr increments. Alot of the cross calculations came close to the 115gr 9mm LRN data. But to be on the safe side I would start it at the 4.0gr...

If anyone decides to try based on this, Please be safe, DOUBLE check your loads, cases, and seating depth. It would be best to use factory fresh cases.

Re: Anyone have any data for CFE Pistol?

Posted: 22 Jul 2014, 04:25
by DoubleJ
Here's my CFE-P data if it helps.

S&W M&P9, 4.7" Barrel, Tirant9 (9mm) Rem 1.5, CFE Pistol, 147gr Berry's, COAL 1.165"
3.9gr - No Can - Hi 877, Lo 847, Av 862, ES 30, SD 12
4.0gr - Can - Hi 952, Lo 890, Av 910, Es 42, SD 18
4.1gr - Can - Hi 960, Lo 907, Av 934, ES 53, SD 22
4.2gr - Can - Hi 961, Lo 911, Av 947, ES 50, SD 20

Kel Tec P-3AT (380ACP) Rem 1.5, CFE Pistol, 100gr Berry's
3.7gr 676, 740, 742
3.8gr 752, 788, 697
3.9gr 728, 864, 816
4.0gr 812, 855, 822

Re: Anyone have any data for CFE Pistol?

Posted: 23 Jul 2014, 05:12
by Wagonbacker9
grimmond wrote:I ran a bunch of calculations and comparative data and based on that it should be able to be taken up to 5.4gr.. But I personally would start start it at 4.0gr shooting 5 rounds and increasing it in .1gr increments. Alot of the cross calculations came close to the 115gr 9mm LRN data. But to be on the safe side I would start it at the 4.0gr...

If anyone decides to try based on this, Please be safe, DOUBLE check your loads, cases, and seating depth. It would be best to use factory fresh cases.
I'll load up a set, no idea when my next trip to the range will be though. I should have just enough 40gr vmaxes left to cover that range. I'll probably load up some 25gr pills as well. I'm thinking a reasonable start load for that may be about 4.5? I personally see no reason to go over 5.4 max as that round will already be smoking.
I'll bring the chrono with to see what they run.

Re: Anyone have any data for CFE Pistol?

Posted: 23 Jul 2014, 08:18
by bruteandbear1
They have alot of CFE at my LGS!!! So I Hope this Powder Works Well for 27 Grain And 40 Grain Bullets!!!

Re: Anyone have any data for CFE Pistol?

Posted: 09 Feb 2015, 10:17
by DocUSMCRetired
I have CFE Pistol powder, but currently use Titegroup. I can run a load of CFE and see how it turns out. I use a magnetospeed with a rail mount for my testing.

Re: Anyone have any data for CFE Pistol?

Posted: 09 Feb 2015, 16:11
by DoubleJ
Just for the record, some of us did try CFE, and it worked, I can post my data if anyone is interested.

Just for the second record, I spoke with Hodgdon about HS-7, and found that it was discontinued many years ago as it was expensive and inefficient to produce. Seems that we're the only ones that want it back, everyone else is happy with HS-6 and such, although I still see old load data where it trumps everything else, in several different calibers.