5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Reloading info for the 5.7x28mm

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5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by iFire » 06 Jun 2011, 11:16

This can be the thread just to ramble in - maybe help keep the rambling out of the other places :p Which would be largely my fault :laugh:

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by iFire » 06 Jun 2011, 11:17

Started work on some subsonics...

Trying AutoComp, WSF, HS-6 and a few others.

I have some preliminary data, but will have some good solid stuff pretty soon...

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by Grantness » 06 Jun 2011, 14:08

Good idea!

Yea, faster powders seem to work well for subsonics. Then again, who was it? 1MoreAugust... is that right? (its been so long! :wall: ) developed some AR57 subsonics using slower powders I believe... :ponder: Maybe someone can dig those up.

The only subsonic loads i've bothered with are for the 45gr Sinterfire (which may or may not equate to a 50gr vmax) and VV N350. They are listed here: viewtopic.php?p=118258#p118258" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

For a gun everyone calls a .22, its pretty hard to actually get it to behave like one :laugh:

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by warlock » 06 Jun 2011, 18:06

I have been reloading for about 27 years and thought I knew what I was doing. My son bought a 5.7 pistol and wanted to know if we could reload for it, sure I said. I have never had such a tough time getting a round tuned to a pistol in my life. Thanks to the help on this sight we have a functioning reload that will cycle the pistol in the summer and the winter time in MT. Thank you all for your help. JW Semper Fi

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by Rapier1772 » 06 Jun 2011, 18:43

Grantness wrote:Then again, who was it? 1MoreAugust... is that right? (its been so long! :wall: )
Close, 1moreaug - I used his as a starting point for some of my loads as well.
Grantness wrote:The only subsonic loads i've bothered with are for the 45gr Sinterfire (which may or may not equate to a 50gr vmax) and VV N350. They are listed here: viewtopic.php?p=118258#p118258" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Those speeds are a tad on the fast side :ponder: But I'll try them with a heavier bullet & see if that makes (enough of) a difference.
Grantness wrote:For a gun everyone calls a .22, its pretty hard to actually get it to behave like one :laugh:
Soooo true

Thanks
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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by iFire » 06 Jun 2011, 19:23

warlock wrote:Thanks to the help on this sight we have a functioning reload that will cycle the pistol in the summer and the winter time in MT. Thank you all for your help. JW Semper Fi
:laugh: That was the worst part for me intitially - going from an 80 degree day to a -20 degree day and trying to get the darn pistol to reliably cycle!

-----

Subsonic load development in the PS90 is going really well with 55gr FMJ's so far. I have at least 3 suitable powders...

I played with some 68gr Hornady's too - probably too big to stabilize but I couldnt resist - we'll see how it goes :D

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by iFire » 07 Jun 2011, 20:04

Well I have tried a whole bunch of stuff. I have tons of notes to sort through :laugh:

Some results of my efforts - only the loads that worked well and fit into the proper FPS range. This is by no means all I have tested... I have been playing with 55gr FMJ's and 68gr Match Hollow Points...

PS90 subsonic Info:

--------

3.1grs HS6 / 55gr FMJ || Avg - 1079 fps || SD - 10 fps || N=4

Subsonic - Cycled the Action Well

--------

2.6grs WSF / 55gr FMJ || Avg - 1046 fps || SD - 20 fps || N=5

Subsonic - Cycled the Action Well

--------

2.5grs AutoComp / 55gr FMJ || 1019 fps || SD - 16 fps || N=5

Subsonic - Cycled the Action Well

--------

3.0grs Steel / 55gr FMJ || 1082 fps || SD - N/A || N=1

Subsonic - Cycled the Action Well


______________________________________


FsN subsonic Info:

--------

5.5grs Win 296 / 55gr FMJ || Avg - 1049 fps || SD - N/A fps || N=1

Subsonic - Cycled the Action Well

--------

3.0grs Steel / 55gr FMJ || Avg - 723 fps || SD - N/A fps || N=1

Subsonic - Cycled the Action Well - I need to work my way up the load ladder till i get to around 1050 fps...

--------

3.0grs AutoComp / 68gr HP || Avg - 1044 fps || SD - N/A fps || N=1

Subsonic - Cycled the Action Well - I need to work my way up the load ladder till i get to around 1050 fps...

--------

3.0grs WSF / 68gr HP || Avg - 1042 fps || SD - N/A fps || N=1

Subsonic - Just barely cycled the action, but it did. I will have to move up the charge just a bit and see what happens.

--------

Not a bad start into my subsonic trials :D
Last edited by iFire on 18 Jun 2011, 14:57, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by Rapier1772 » 07 Jun 2011, 20:32

By worked well you mean...?
I have some subs that I have been testing & my biggest problem seems to be the keyholes that wont go away (target is only 10yd out). Some loads are better than others but sooner or later they always crop up :wall:

Any keyholes with yours or are you even checking that?
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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by VeTTeMaNC486 » 07 Jun 2011, 21:11

iFire wrote:5.5grs Win 296 / 55gr FMJ || Avg - 1049 fps || SD - N/A fps || N=1

Subsonic - Cycled the Action Well
Is this correct? Isn't that the same thing as H110? I have heard that it is not to be used with light/low case fill loads, I am interested in your load here. I have just heard this repeated over and over on the internet, any merit to this? If it works in this subsonic, what would keep it from being used in more powerful loads, other than the burn rate being on the slow side?

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by iFire » 07 Jun 2011, 21:26

Rapier1772 wrote:By worked well you mean...?
"Cycled the action well" is what i said... meaning: It did not short stroke, no FTE's, did not jam and no FTFTFR's (fail to feed the following round)
Rapier1772 wrote:I have some subs that I have been testing & my biggest problem seems to be the keyholes that wont go away (target is only 10yd out). Some loads are better than others but sooner or later they always crop up :wall:

Any keyholes with yours or are you even checking that?
I only checked a couple so far that were around 1200 fps and they were ok, but I have not checked them all... Now that I have some good numbers I can load up some bigger batches and do some better SD testing as well as some accuracy / keyhole tests.

My main goal so far was getting a load that cycled the action while spitting out the bullet at my target of 1050 fps. The 68 grain load seems interesting - the 68 gr @ 1050 fps yields 167 ft/lbs while the 55 gr @ 1050 fps yields 135 ft/lbs...

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by iFire » 07 Jun 2011, 21:53

VeTTeMaNC486 wrote:
iFire wrote:5.5grs Win 296 / 55gr FMJ || Avg - 1049 fps || SD - N/A fps || N=1

Subsonic - Cycled the Action Well
Is this correct? Isn't that the same thing as H110? I have heard that it is not to be used with light/low case fill loads, I am interested in your load here. I have just heard this repeated over and over on the internet, any merit to this? If it works in this subsonic, what would keep it from being used in more powerful loads, other than the burn rate being on the slow side?
Yes - the data is correct.

In the FsN I have used loads with a 55gr FMJ from 3.0 grs to 6.0 grs all with smooth ejection and a nice smooth ladder climb. 5.5 grs was right at my target speed of ~1050 with good function and smooth recoil.. That is why I posted it. I feel confident with this load.

I will do a whole bunch more testing, but 296 for subsonics in the FsN seems to be working well...

In the PS90, I would not shoot anything under 5.0 grs w/ a 55gr. I tried a 4.0gr/55gr load and the gun jammed up bad. The 6.0-7.0 gr loads w/ 40gr Vmax's I shot so far worked well. However, 296 is not a great choice for the PS90 in general... I see no benefits in using 296 in the PS90 to this point... It is possible, but there are soo many other, better choices...

I can explain a whole lot more if you would like about what keeps it from being used in more powerful loads...
Last edited by iFire on 08 Jun 2011, 04:29, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by VeTTeMaNC486 » 07 Jun 2011, 22:39

iFire wrote:
VeTTeMaNC486 wrote:
iFire wrote:5.5grs Win 296 / 55gr FMJ || Avg - 1049 fps || SD - N/A fps || N=1

Subsonic - Cycled the Action Well
Is this correct? Isn't that the same thing as H110? I have heard that it is not to be used with light/low case fill loads, I am interested in your load here. I have just heard this repeated over and over on the internet, any merit to this? If it works in this subsonic, what would keep it from being used in more powerful loads, other than the burn rate being on the slow side?
Yes - the data is correct.

In the FsN I have used loads with a 55gr FMJ from 3.0 grs to 6.0 grs all with smooth ejection and a nice smooth ladder climb. 5.5 grs was right at my target speed of ~1050 with good function and smooth recoil.. That is why I posted it. I feel confident with this load.

I will do a whole bunch more testing, but 296 for subsonics in the FsN seems to be working well...

In the PS90, I would not shoot anything under 5.0 grs w/ a 55gr. I tried a 4.0gr/55gr load and the gun jammed up bad. The 6.0-7.0 gr loads w/ 55gr FMJ's I shot so far worked well. However, 296 is not a great choice for the PS90 in general... I see no benefits in using 296 in the PS90 to this point... It is possible, but there are soo many other, better choices...

I can explain a whole lot more if you would like about what keeps it from being used in more powerful loads...
That is interesting, as it seems to go against what everyone on the internet says about the powder. I am assuming you are not using a mag primer? What kind of velocities were you getting with the 6-7gr 55gr fmj loads in the ps90? I am interested. You can pm me if you wish as to not hijack the thread anymore than it already is.

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by Rapier1772 » 07 Jun 2011, 22:59

iFire wrote:
Rapier1772 wrote:By worked well you mean...?
"Cycled the action well" is what i said... meaning: It did not short stroke, no FTE's, did not jam and no FTFTFR's (fail to feed the following round)
You said the cycled well part later in your post. If I had assumed that was all you meant by
iFire wrote:only the loads that worked well and fit into the proper FPS range.
then you'd have come up with some other thing to say "I said it worked well didn't I?" :p :p

I don't like assuming what people mean because I am usually wrong about that. My jedi powers do not extend to the internet :laugh:
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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by Grantness » 08 Jun 2011, 03:12

Nice start! That's what I like to see :clap: I assume (you like that Rapier?) keyholing is a bigger problem with the heaviest bullets out of the shortest barrels. Did you mention what kind of primers you were using anywhere in there? I always use small pistol cause its an easy way to shave off ~100fps. Let's also remember that the speed of sound can vary based on temp and other factors...

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by iFire » 08 Jun 2011, 05:06

VeTTeMaNC486 wrote:You can pm me if you wish as to not hijack the thread anymore than it already is.
PM sent - But just so you know your not hi-jacking - ask anything you want :thumb:
Grantness wrote:Nice start! That's what I like to see :clap: I assume (you like that Rapier?) keyholing is a bigger problem with the heaviest bullets out of the shortest barrels. Did you mention what kind of primers you were using anywhere in there? I always use small pistol cause its an easy way to shave off ~100fps. Let's also remember that the speed of sound can vary based on temp and other factors...
Thanks Grantness - I was using CCI 400's ... Might have to give some small pistol a try ...

We have been having quite a few discussions about 296 it seems - Grant you want to give 296 a try in your FsN and confirm some of the data I have posted since you mentioned you had some? I think if both of us can verify it then it should be good...

my data thus far:

55 gr Hornady FMJ | CCI 400 | Win 296 | 1x brass

3.0 - 565
3.5 - 649
4.0 - 742
4.5 - 877
5.0 - 975
5.5 - 1049
6.0 - 1074

I would not start at 3.0 grs - start at 5.0 grs and test inbetween 5.0-6.0

-----

I know the speed of sound can vary... However, since I shoot in cold weather (down to around 0 degrees F) I want something that in theory works in all my conditions (or close to it) - That is why my target speed is 1050 fps :thumb: And yes I probably could go up to around 1100 in the 60 degree test temps I tested in and hope that I lose speed as it gets colder to account for the lower speed of sound at those temps... But for now 1050 is a decent goal...

From a post of yours:

32 F: 1086 fps
40 F: 1095 fps
50 F: 1106 fps
60 F: 1117 fps
65 F: 1122 fps
70 F: 1128 fps
80 F: 1138 fps
90 F: 1149 fps
100 F: 1159 fps

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by iFire » 08 Jun 2011, 05:11

Rapier1772 wrote:I don't like assuming what people mean because I am usually wrong about that. My jedi powers do not extend to the internet :laugh:
Jedi powers would be nice everywhere :laugh:

I dont mind the questions, so no need to assume... ask questions, it usually brings clarification for everyone :thumb:

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by Grantness » 08 Jun 2011, 06:03

I actually don't have any 55gr bullets....unless you count the XM193 loaded 556 rounds I have. Theoretically I could pull them, but they're crimped in pretty tight. Next step down are some 52gr Sierra Matchkings I believe...

I CAN split parts of this thread off into a new one if we ever get several pages of good data/discussion on something real specific...

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by iFire » 08 Jun 2011, 06:36

Yeah if we ever get a bunch of good stuff about a particular topic splitting would be a good idea...

You could try the 52grs bullets - 3 grs makes a difference - but at least you could report your general findings :thumb:

It just seems that their is quite a bit of concern over the 296 - I agree that it is not ideal for full power loads, and I wouldnt recommend it... But in this application - in the FsN for subsonics - I have had good success...

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by Grantness » 08 Jun 2011, 06:54

I'll take your word for it, and be cautious as usual. Like I said, I considered 296 for full power loads in my T/C, but thats a whole new ball game. Actually I might have some 55gr solids, but Im going to need ask permission to use them first. Anyways, they wouldnt behave like FMJ so its sorta pointless...

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by iFire » 08 Jun 2011, 06:59

Yeah in the T/C you have no timing to mess around with. That is the hard part in the FsN and the PS90...

I would imagine powders like Enforcer, 296, lil' gun and a bunch of others would be good choices and become very useful in a bolt or T/C configuration :thumb:

Maybe I need to get a T/C or bolt gun to in 5.7 to play with :laugh:

Oh and Grant - I still cant believe you have NO 55grs laying around? Really? :p

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by Grantness » 08 Jun 2011, 07:04

The only prob I have with mine is the twist is 1in12...that's the only way T/C custom shop would make. As a result, my 18.5" barrel gets about the same velocities as a PS90 with the same loads. OTOH, I can certainly get a whole lot more speed out of it than any PS90 w/ loads that would be considered insane out of a blowback gun. If you get one, try Match Grade Machine or something similar.

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by iFire » 14 Jun 2011, 21:25

I'm going to start testing the 35gr NTX soon...

I have a feeling this is going to become my favorite bullet for the 5.7 :D

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by VeTTeMaNC486 » 14 Jun 2011, 21:44

If someone would make a gas operated weapon that chambered this cartidge that took fsn (or ps90 for that matter) mags and cost <2k I'd be all over it. Seems with a locking bolt it would open the door a bit with powder choice. Would be neat to have a barrel/bolt/mag made for the desert eagle :laugh:

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by Grantness » 14 Jun 2011, 22:30

exactly, ive been calling for that for a long time. One guy managed to convert a normal AR to shoot 5.7 and he's posted test results. 'nother guy...what's his name....dangit :wall: ...old sponser... was seriously looking into converting m1 carbines in 5.7(?) johnson to shoot 5.7x28 before he got cancer and had to take it easy.

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by panzermk2 » 14 Jun 2011, 22:34

That was Venry and he lost his battle.
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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by Grantness » 14 Jun 2011, 22:38

OH MY GOD, was that while I was gone??? That's such a shame. I had a lot of great correspondence with him and he sounded like a great, talented man...

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by Rapier1772 » 14 Jun 2011, 22:47

Sep 19th, 2010 Jay said Venry had passed from a relapse "a while back" in the 10mm CCW thread. I am not sure how far a while is though. You haven't been gone THAT long :)
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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by Grantness » 14 Jun 2011, 22:54

Actually I think I left right around that time....at least thats when my problems started. may not have been following that thread. who knows :?:

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by VeTTeMaNC486 » 15 Jun 2011, 09:00

panzermk2 wrote:That was Venry and he lost his battle.
Sorry to hear that.

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by VeTTeMaNC486 » 15 Jun 2011, 09:01

Grantness wrote:exactly, ive been calling for that for a long time. One guy managed to convert a normal AR to shoot 5.7 and he's posted test results. 'nother guy...what's his name....dangit :wall: ...old sponser... was seriously looking into converting m1 carbines in 5.7(?) johnson to shoot 5.7x28 before he got cancer and had to take it easy.
Seems like I remember seeing that ar somewhere. It has been a good while though.

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by Grantness » 15 Jun 2011, 09:19

I;ve forgotten way to many names/handles since I left... I remember the people, but Im bad w/ names. I'll post it as soon as I remember. I know i've got some PM's from him down in the depths of my massive, cluttered inbox.

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by eVenom » 15 Jun 2011, 14:53

iFire wrote:I'm going to start testing the 35gr NTX soon...

I have a feeling this is going to become my favorite bullet for the 5.7 :D
Doesn't that round look COOL! I m exited to see your data! and some pics of it mounted!

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by Grantness » 15 Jun 2011, 15:42

Prob the best 35gr jacketed bullet out there... remains to be seen if it will be able to top the 40gr bullets in performance...

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by iFire » 15 Jun 2011, 19:04

eVenom wrote:
iFire wrote:I'm going to start testing the 35gr NTX soon...

I have a feeling this is going to become my favorite bullet for the 5.7 :D
Doesn't that round look COOL! I m exited to see your data! and some pics of it mounted!
Soon :thumb:
Grantness wrote:Prob the best 35gr jacketed bullet out there... remains to be seen if it will be able to top the 40gr bullets in performance...
Grant - your right, to date the best bullet has been the 40gr for maximum ft/lbs... This 35 grain might give it a run for its money - we will see... the biggest problem has been availability, especially of the 35 NTX - seems to have been in and out of stock... But I am getting a bunch real soon, probably around 1k :D

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by Grantness » 15 Jun 2011, 19:31

yep, i've never been able to get ahold of any... Personally I'd rather have a 36gr PFP :D

Wish someone would make a jacketed 40gr NXT type bullet. surely there's a demand... vmax's and nosler ballistic tips are top sellers and more and more states are passing lead free laws.

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by eVenom » 15 Jun 2011, 20:33

a few years ago I remember seeing a custom 25gr .224 bullet.... I would like to see this out of this cartridge and get 3000fps out of the handgun :drool: :drool:

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by iFire » 15 Jun 2011, 20:35

Grantness wrote:yep, i've never been able to get ahold of any... Personally I'd rather have a 36gr PFP :D

Wish someone would make a jacketed 40gr NXT type bullet. surely there's a demand... vmax's and nosler ballistic tips are top sellers and more and more states are passing lead free laws.
Grant - Nosler makes a 40gr lead free .224

example:

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?p ... g-_-981434" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I have tried the 35 gr Nosler LFBT but not the 40gr. The 35 grain is very good. Thats why I want to give the 35 NTX a whirl :thumb:

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by Grantness » 15 Jun 2011, 20:38

well, it depends on the shape and materials used in the bullet. if it's basically a smaller 30gr Varmint grenade or Vmax then its not going to get great velocity for its weight and never achieve the kinetic energies of a 40gr vmax or 28gr ss195 loaded to the max. Might be able to get 3000fps or there abouts out of EA's forthcoming 8" barrel or the Excel Accelerator 8.5" barrel (when it comes out) using a 28gr SS195..... Don't know just yet though.

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by Grantness » 15 Jun 2011, 20:40

iFire wrote:
Grantness wrote:yep, i've never been able to get ahold of any... Personally I'd rather have a 36gr PFP :D

Wish someone would make a jacketed 40gr NXT type bullet. surely there's a demand... vmax's and nosler ballistic tips are top sellers and more and more states are passing lead free laws.
Grant - Nosler makes a 40gr lead free .224

example:

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?p ... g-_-981434" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I have tried the 35 gr Nosler LFBT but not the 40gr. The 35 grain is very good. Thats why I want to give the 35 NTX a whirl :thumb:
huh, i checked just the other day and must have missed it. I wonder if it's designed like the NXT's (little bit longer).... Def need to test that! If we can squeeze more velocity out of it than the 40gr ballistic silvertips, it'd be perfect to throw in my carry mag behind the 28gr bullets and PFPs.

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by iFire » 15 Jun 2011, 20:44

The 35gr Nosler lead free bullet is longer than the 40 gr Vmax and it has more bearing surface as well... The 40 would be even longer/more bearing surface I am guessing...

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by Grantness » 15 Jun 2011, 20:53

i hope so... :D

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by VeTTeMaNC486 » 16 Jun 2011, 08:34

iFire wrote:The 35gr Nosler lead free bullet is longer than the 40 gr Vmax and it has more bearing surface as well... The 40 would be even longer/more bearing surface I am guessing...
Grantness wrote:i hope so... :D
Wouldn't that be a bad thing? More friction and less volume for powder?

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by Grantness » 16 Jun 2011, 08:43

Depends in the powder... Less volume could create more pressure, and you could always adjust the OAL to compensate. But the extra bearing surface seems to be the key to the 35gr LF bullet's increase in velocity....

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by panzermk2 » 16 Jun 2011, 08:47

Which is why the Berger 30gr Var sucks wind. Don't get me wrong. It is a great bullet and can make for some nice 5.7 loads. BUT way to much bearing surface combined with a soft jacket keeps you from getting from getting the velocity you should from a 30gr bullet.
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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by Grantness » 16 Jun 2011, 08:50

I see where you're coming from but then why are the NXT's getting better velocity than standard vmax style 35gr bullets? The 28gr SS195 bullets have more bearing surface and look how much better they are than traditional 30gr bullets?

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by VeTTeMaNC486 » 16 Jun 2011, 09:27

Grantness wrote:Depends in the powder... Less volume could create more pressure, and you could always adjust the OAL to compensate. But the extra bearing surface seems to be the key to the 35gr LF bullet's increase in velocity....
Seems like you would want to be able to pack as much of the powder of your choice under the bullet as possible while keeping the pressures safe. Less bearing surface and more powder volume seem like a good way to do this. I do not claim to be any sort of expert or anything, I am VERY far from it :laugh: . I just came up with this by reasoning, I reserve the right to be wrong :D
Grantness wrote:I see where you're coming from but then why are the NXT's getting better velocity than standard vmax style 35gr bullets? The 28gr SS195 bullets have more bearing surface and look how much better they are than traditional 30gr bullets?
I don't recall any data posted with the NXT??? only the nosler FT 35gr.
Good point about the 28gr ss195.

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by panzermk2 » 16 Jun 2011, 12:12

Grantness wrote:I see where you're coming from but then why are the NXT's getting better velocity than standard vmax style 35gr bullets? The 28gr SS195 bullets have more bearing surface and look how much better they are than traditional 30gr bullets?
It's the core. When you shoot a bullet with a lead core, most folkes don't know this, the lead core becomes very soft semi fluid from the pressure and starts to flow. The acceleration/ G force also causes the now soften lead core to push back and bulge out the bottom of the bullet.

Thickness of jacket, hardness of the jacket and also hardness of the lead used to make the core all come into play.

With 28gr the copper jacket and aluminum core is much harder and is to a greater extent in a firearm cartridge immune to this phenomenon.

Just like the Barnes varmint grenade with it's compressed metal core it does not flow like the lead core variant and can be pushed more.
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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by Grantness » 16 Jun 2011, 12:31

thanks Panzer, very interesting... :thumb:

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by iFire » 16 Jun 2011, 20:50

VeTTeMaNC486 wrote:
Grantness wrote:Depends in the powder... Less volume could create more pressure, and you could always adjust the OAL to compensate. But the extra bearing surface seems to be the key to the 35gr LF bullet's increase in velocity....
Seems like you would want to be able to pack as much of the powder of your choice under the bullet as possible while keeping the pressures safe. Less bearing surface and more powder volume seem like a good way to do this. I do not claim to be any sort of expert or anything, I am VERY far from it :laugh: . I just came up with this by reasoning, I reserve the right to be wrong :D
It is soo much more complicated than that ^

First of all, if you increase the bearing surface, then you can move to a slightly slower burning powder (in relation to the bullet weight), which would allow you to increase the charge and therefore get even more velocity out of your bullet (or course there are limits to this, dependent on the cartridge and gun design)

Next, in the 5.7 cartridge, almost all powders that work well are only running around 50-60 percent fill rates. So a longer bullet almost never impedes on the cases ability to hold powder.

Furthermore, since this is a blowback weapon, you need to consider timing - You have to generate just the right amount of pressure at just the right time otherwise everything will fail. The logic that makes sense in bolt guns and even semi auto gas type guns goes right out the window in a blowback. Thats also why some powders look good on paper but just dont work when you actually test them out.
VeTTeMaNC486 wrote:
Grantness wrote:I see where you're coming from but then why are the NXT's getting better velocity than standard vmax style 35gr bullets? The 28gr SS195 bullets have more bearing surface and look how much better they are than traditional 30gr bullets?
I don't recall any data posted with the NXT??? only the nosler FT 35gr.
Good point about the 28gr ss195.
I have posted data about the 35gr nosler lead free - and I will have a bunch of data about the 35gr NTX since I have a TON of them on the way :D

The longer bearing surface on the 28 gr bullet allows a slower burning powder (relatively speaking) to be used than would be typically possible if the bullet was a 28gr lead bullet.

For instance, If you had a 28gr lead bullet, the bullet would start leaving the case and would be started down the barrel faster than the 28gr ss195 does. This starts the ejection process sooner. It also allows less time for the case to build pressure, and less time for the case to properly "grip" the chamber.

What is so neat about the 28 gr bullet is that upon initial ignition the bullet is reacting similar to a 45-50 grain bullet in initial friction (because of the bearing surface) to get it going... However, once it starts moving, it gets going quickly because it is indeed only 28 grains. Therefore, You can use a slow(er) burning powder than would typically be possible with a lead 28gr design. Also, because it is a 28gr bullet you can use more of the slower burning powder (relatively speaking) than you can with a 40+ grain bullet. The combination of the previous two items gives just the right timing and pressure and charge to get the 28gr cooking...

The 40gr vmax is kind of just the opposite of the above - the bullet has more weight, but has a very small bearing surface. It has less friction, but takes more intertia to get it going... It turns out that the bearing surface/weight ratio coupled with the proper powder makes the 40gr vmax one of (if not the) top choice for the 5.7 cartridge.

What remains to be seen is how the 35 gr NTX bullet weight/bearing surface ratio works in the 5.7 - It may work great, or it may be just ok. We will see...

Plus this makes a difference as well (the info below), since the bullets react differently in their "fluid" movement down the barrel
panzermk2 wrote:
It's the core. When you shoot a bullet with a lead core, most folkes don't know this, the lead core becomes very soft semi fluid from the pressure and starts to flow. The acceleration/ G force also causes the now soften lead core to push back and bulge out the bottom of the bullet.

Thickness of jacket, hardness of the jacket and also hardness of the lead used to make the core all come into play.

With 28gr the copper jacket and aluminum core is much harder and is to a greater extent in a firearm cartridge immune to this phenomenon.

Just like the Barnes varmint grenade with it's compressed metal core it does not flow like the lead core variant and can be pushed more.
Its complicated. But at the same time the physics behind it all is really interesting. :D

I wrote a LOT - i will have to re-read this later and make sure there aren't any typos :laugh:

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by VeTTeMaNC486 » 17 Jun 2011, 11:24

iFire wrote:
VeTTeMaNC486 wrote:
Grantness wrote:Depends in the powder... Less volume could create more pressure, and you could always adjust the OAL to compensate. But the extra bearing surface seems to be the key to the 35gr LF bullet's increase in velocity....
Seems like you would want to be able to pack as much of the powder of your choice under the bullet as possible while keeping the pressures safe. Less bearing surface and more powder volume seem like a good way to do this. I do not claim to be any sort of expert or anything, I am VERY far from it :laugh: . I just came up with this by reasoning, I reserve the right to be wrong :D
It is soo much more complicated than that ^

First of all, if you increase the bearing surface, then you can move to a slightly slower burning powder (in relation to the bullet weight), which would allow you to increase the charge and therefore get even more velocity out of your bullet (or course there are limits to this, dependent on the cartridge and gun design)

Next, in the 5.7 cartridge, almost all powders that work well are only running around 50-60 percent fill rates. So a longer bullet almost never impedes on the cases ability to hold powder.

Furthermore, since this is a blowback weapon, you need to consider timing - You have to generate just the right amount of pressure at just the right time otherwise everything will fail. The logic that makes sense in bolt guns and even semi auto gas type guns goes right out the window in a blowback. Thats also why some powders look good on paper but just dont work when you actually test them out.
VeTTeMaNC486 wrote:
Grantness wrote:I see where you're coming from but then why are the NXT's getting better velocity than standard vmax style 35gr bullets? The 28gr SS195 bullets have more bearing surface and look how much better they are than traditional 30gr bullets?
I don't recall any data posted with the NXT??? only the nosler FT 35gr.
Good point about the 28gr ss195.
I have posted data about the 35gr nosler lead free - and I will have a bunch of data about the 35gr NTX since I have a TON of them on the way :D

The longer bearing surface on the 28 gr bullet allows a slower burning powder (relatively speaking) to be used than would be typically possible if the bullet was a 28gr lead bullet.

For instance, If you had a 28gr lead bullet, the bullet would start leaving the case and would be started down the barrel faster than the 28gr ss195 does. This starts the ejection process sooner. It also allows less time for the case to build pressure, and less time for the case to properly "grip" the chamber.

What is so neat about the 28 gr bullet is that upon initial ignition the bullet is reacting similar to a 45-50 grain bullet in initial friction (because of the bearing surface) to get it going... However, once it starts moving, it gets going quickly because it is indeed only 28 grains. Therefore, You can use a slow(er) burning powder than would typically be possible with a lead 28gr design. Also, because it is a 28gr bullet you can use more of the slower burning powder (relatively speaking) than you can with a 40+ grain bullet. The combination of the previous two items gives just the right timing and pressure and charge to get the 28gr cooking...

The 40gr vmax is kind of just the opposite of the above - the bullet has more weight, but has a very small bearing surface. It has less friction, but takes more intertia to get it going... It turns out that the bearing surface/weight ratio coupled with the proper powder makes the 40gr vmax one of (if not the) top choice for the 5.7 cartridge.

What remains to be seen is how the 35 gr NTX bullet weight/bearing surface ratio works in the 5.7 - It may work great, or it may be just ok. We will see...

Plus this makes a difference as well (the info below), since the bullets react differently in their "fluid" movement down the barrel
panzermk2 wrote:
It's the core. When you shoot a bullet with a lead core, most folkes don't know this, the lead core becomes very soft semi fluid from the pressure and starts to flow. The acceleration/ G force also causes the now soften lead core to push back and bulge out the bottom of the bullet.

Thickness of jacket, hardness of the jacket and also hardness of the lead used to make the core all come into play.

With 28gr the copper jacket and aluminum core is much harder and is to a greater extent in a firearm cartridge immune to this phenomenon.

Just like the Barnes varmint grenade with it's compressed metal core it does not flow like the lead core variant and can be pushed more.
Its complicated. But at the same time the physics behind it all is really interesting. :D

I wrote a LOT - i will have to re-read this later and make sure there aren't any typos :laugh:
Cool, never thought about it like that :thumb:

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by Grantness » 17 Jun 2011, 20:17

You really need to understand a great deal of physics, engineering, and sounds like even fluid dynamics to wrap your mind around this stuff. For those of us not smart enough to get everything (including me :laugh: )...we can always keep up the trial and error testing. It works.....eventually. Never underestimate the power of empirical evidence :D

Be safe :thumb:

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by iFire » 17 Jun 2011, 21:26

Grantness wrote:You really need to understand a great deal of physics, engineering, and sounds like even fluid dynamics to wrap your mind around this stuff
I suppose all of my college EdUmacAsIon finally can be put to practical use: Reloading :laugh:

In other news: I got 8 boxes of 35gr NTX's in route to me. Testing to commence next week :D

Also: Grant - did you ever get the chance to test any subsonics with 296? Tomorrow I plan to do some more testing with it...

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by eVenom » 17 Jun 2011, 21:30

:thumb: get some pictures of the loaded round when you make them(before shooting them)

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by Grantness » 17 Jun 2011, 21:34

i planned on testing w/ full power too actually... using the T/C. Im almost afraid to try any 296 loads out of the FsN. We'll see. I took my trimmer apart a while back to use the electric drill I had on there....so most of the brass I have ready is T/C only brass. I'll try to get my trimmer up and running shortly and work on that 296 stuff...

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by iFire » 17 Jun 2011, 21:37

eVenom wrote::thumb: get some pictures of the loaded round when you make them(before shooting them)
I can do that... they have copper colored tips - should be pretty snazzy looking :D

I may even dip a few to give them black collars and copper tips - I think that would make for a decorative magazine full...

Similar to the Vmaxs I dipped in white:

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by VeTTeMaNC486 » 17 Jun 2011, 21:39

Grantness wrote:You really need to understand a great deal of physics, engineering, and sounds like even fluid dynamics to wrap your mind around this stuff. For those of us not smart enough to get everything (including me :laugh: )...we can always keep up the trial and error testing. It works.....eventually. Never underestimate the power of empirical evidence :D

Be safe :thumb:
We don't really learn much about that kinda stuff in my Electrical Engineering classes :laugh: . (Which I am finally starting to get into after taking so many freaking core classes/pre-reqs... 2 more years and counting... :D ).

iFire, if you do not mind, could you post a picture of the projectiles in question side by side (40gr vmax, 35gr nlf, 35gr nxt, and possibly the 28gr ss195), it would probably go well with our discussion.

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by iFire » 17 Jun 2011, 21:41

Grantness wrote:i planned on testing w/ full power too actually... using the T/C. Im almost afraid to try any 296 loads out of the FsN. We'll see. I took my trimmer apart a while back to use the electric drill I had on there....so most of the brass I have ready is T/C only brass. I'll try to get my trimmer up and running shortly and work on that 296 stuff...
Dont worry about the 296 subs in the FsN - I'll take care of it... I am going to shoot a bunch more probably tomorrow and I'll post the results including all the relevant SD, ES and Average numbers...

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by Grantness » 17 Jun 2011, 21:43

if it goes well, I'll use some of your loads so we can get a bigger sample size. :thumb:

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by VeTTeMaNC486 » 17 Jun 2011, 21:48

iFire wrote:
Grantness wrote:i planned on testing w/ full power too actually... using the T/C. Im almost afraid to try any 296 loads out of the FsN. We'll see. I took my trimmer apart a while back to use the electric drill I had on there....so most of the brass I have ready is T/C only brass. I'll try to get my trimmer up and running shortly and work on that 296 stuff...
Dont worry about the 296 subs in the FsN - I'll take care of it... I am going to shoot a bunch more probably tomorrow and I'll post the results including all the relevant SD, ES and Average numbers...
Looking forward to it. Seems to go completely against "they" say about 296. I can't say I have ever heard of 296/h110 being used in anything resembling a reduced load :laugh:

For subs are you just going to use just 55gr fmjs or have you considered trying something heavier, like a 62gr fmj? Not sure how well those would stabilize...

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by iFire » 17 Jun 2011, 21:49

VeTTeMaNC486 wrote: We don't really learn much about that kinda stuff in my Electrical Engineering classes :laugh: . (Which I am finally starting to get into after taking so many freaking core classes/pre-reqs... 2 more years and counting... :D ).

iFire, if you do not mind, could you post a picture of the projectiles in question side by side (40gr vmax, 35gr nlf, 35gr nxt, and possibly the 28gr ss195), it would probably go well with our discussion.
3 years of Various Physics, 2 years of BioChemistry, 4 years of Physical Chemistry and 2 years of Organic Chemistry - Im glad college is just a memory now for me...

Good luck with your final 2 years :p

---

I have Lots of .224 bullets, including the few you mentioned - when i get the NTX's i will post a pic of as many of them as possible in a neat little line...

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by iFire » 17 Jun 2011, 21:53

VeTTeMaNC486 wrote:Looking forward to it. Seems to go completely against "they" say about 296. I can't say I have ever heard of 296/h110 being used in anything resembling a reduced load :laugh:

For subs are you just going to use just 55gr fmjs or have you considered trying something heavier, like a 62gr fmj? Not sure how well those would stabilize...
I have already done a lot of testing with 296 subs - all of them have worked amazingly well... I have used mostly 55gr bullets, but have also tried some 68 grain Hornady Match HP bullets - A lot more energy can be deliverd while still remaining subsonic - I am not sure at what distance they may (or may not) start to tumble... We will see...

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by VeTTeMaNC486 » 17 Jun 2011, 22:12

iFire wrote:
VeTTeMaNC486 wrote: We don't really learn much about that kinda stuff in my Electrical Engineering classes :laugh: . (Which I am finally starting to get into after taking so many freaking core classes/pre-reqs... 2 more years and counting... :D ).

iFire, if you do not mind, could you post a picture of the projectiles in question side by side (40gr vmax, 35gr nlf, 35gr nxt, and possibly the 28gr ss195), it would probably go well with our discussion.
3 years of Various Physics, 2 years of BioChemistry, 4 years of Physical Chemistry and 2 years of Organic Chemistry - Im glad college is just a memory now for me...

Good luck with your final 2 years :p

---

I have Lots of .224 bullets, including the few you mentioned - when i get the NTX's i will post a pic of as many of them as possible in a neat little line...
I'm going to need it :laugh:
I've only had 2 semesters of just basic calculus based physics. Dude teach had his doctorate's in Physics and taught the class like he was teaching a Grad level class. I didn't take much from the class, heck I was just happy to get out of the darn thing :laugh: .

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by Grantness » 18 Jun 2011, 09:30

IMO and others', H110 is not appropriate for full power 5.7x28 loads in a blowback weapon. 296 is still a question to be answered...

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by iFire » 18 Jun 2011, 13:01

I shot a lot of test rounds today - Here's the Subsonic portion of the testing - The other info will make it into my data threads when i get the chance.

FsN | 5.5 grs Win 296 | 55gr Hornady FMJ | CCI 400 | SS195 Brass

N=7

Avg - 1071 fps
ES - 35 fps
SD - 15 fps

Great ejection on all shots ~ 15ft to the right - 45 degrees forward of center

I like win 296 for 55gr subs from the FsN - the best and most consistent ejection of any powder i have tested yet with 55's...

---

FsN | Win 296 | 68gr Hornady Match HP | CCI 400 | SS195 Brass

5.0grs - 941 fps
5.5grs - 1111 fps

Great ejection on both shots ~ 10ft to the right - 15 degrees forward of center

I will have to run some tests in the 5.2-5.3gr range and i should be able to hit the mark of 1050fps...

---

FsN | Win AutoComp | 68gr Hornady Match HP | CCI 400 | SS195 Brass

3.2grs - 1101 fps
3.2grs - 1101 fps
3.4grs - 1142 fps
3.4grs - 1138 fps

Great ejection on all 4 shots ~ 8ft to the right - 20 degrees forward of center

The consistency of AutoComp with the 68gr bullet was amazing - I will have to do some more tests!

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by Grantness » 18 Jun 2011, 15:39

Excellent! Im jealous... gonna have to hop back on that horse :laugh:

Prob best to leave this thread for "random questions" and discussions anyways...

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by iFire » 18 Jun 2011, 16:34

Grant - I like the 5.5gr 296 load with 55's - give it a whirl if you want - It has its own trademark 'feel' to it :thumb:

The 68 gr bullets are also neat to use - at some point I am going to put them on paper to test for tumbling. I just haven't done that yet - too busy putting them through the chrony...

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by VeTTeMaNC486 » 18 Jun 2011, 16:46

Grantness wrote:IMO and others', H110 is not appropriate for full power 5.7x28 loads in a blowback weapon. 296 is still a question to be answered...
I thought the two powders were the same thing?

I bet h110 would be neat with a gas operated or some other locking bolt/breach/whatever :D

Have you tried it in your T/C?

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by VeTTeMaNC486 » 18 Jun 2011, 16:47

iFire wrote:I shot a lot of test rounds today - Here's the Subsonic portion of the testing - The other info will make it into my data threads when i get the chance.

FsN | 5.5 grs Win 296 | 55gr Hornady FMJ | CCI 400 | SS195 Brass

N=7

Avg - 1071 fps
ES - 35 fps
SD - 15 fps

Great ejection on all shots ~ 15ft to the right - 45 degrees forward of center

I like win 296 for 55gr subs from the FsN - the best and most consistent ejection of any powder i have tested yet with 55's...

---

FsN | Win 296 | 68gr Hornady Match HP | CCI 400 | SS195 Brass

5.0grs - 941 fps
5.5grs - 1111 fps

Great ejection on both shots ~ 10ft to the right - 15 degrees forward of center

I will have to run some tests in the 5.2-5.3gr range and i should be able to hit the mark of 1050fps...

---

FsN | Win AutoComp | 68gr Hornady Match HP | CCI 400 | SS195 Brass

3.2grs - 1101 fps
3.2grs - 1101 fps
3.4grs - 1142 fps
3.4grs - 1138 fps

Great ejection on all 4 shots ~ 8ft to the right - 20 degrees forward of center

The consistency of AutoComp with the 68gr bullet was amazing - I will have to do some more tests!
Cool :thumb:
Im curious to see if those 68grs tumble

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by iFire » 18 Jun 2011, 16:52

VeTTeMaNC486 wrote:
Grantness wrote:IMO and others', H110 is not appropriate for full power 5.7x28 loads in a blowback weapon. 296 is still a question to be answered...
I thought the two powders were the same thing?

I bet h110 would be neat with a gas operated or some other locking bolt/breach/whatever :D

Have you tried it in your T/C?
296 and H110 are the same - they come from the same manufacturer. Variations between the two would most likely only be in lot differences...

Lil' gun, 296, Enforcer, AA#9 among several others would be really interesting in a locked breach or contender type gun :thumb: That would be fun to test...

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by Grantness » 18 Jun 2011, 17:51

Lets just say a few years back, certain people had major issues with full power H110 loads...

Actually, I've seen a lot of people use Acc#9 in blowback guns for some reason. Dunno why you would want to, cause #7 is much better suited. Enforcer too. Do not use Lil' Gun in a blowback gun.

Yea, I planned to try out all of these powders in my T/C before my problems happened and I took my leave. Now I kinda don't want to experiment so much with it b/c Im trying to sell it, and the twist rate is 1in12....so results would be impossible to correlate w/ a blowback gun. Im sure the slower twist rate also means the gun would be better suited for slower powders.

Subsonic has never particularly enticed me w/ this gun b/c if I needed to shoot and kill something quietly, I'd rather have more kinetic energy behind the bullet. However, it's always nice to have a couple loads I know will work just in case I need to do some quiet practice. I don't really have any 55gr bullets (except loaded XM293 which I'd have to pull). 52gr FB Matchking is the heaviest I have. I have some 50gr Nosler Silvertips, but so far I have not been able to get them to match the kinetic energy of the 40gr Silvertips. I suppose I could get it to go subsonic....but then there's no kinetic energy again...

I look forward to your heavy bullet tumbling tests iFire. That's a good idea. :thumb: Maybe set up several sheets of paper along the flight path to see where it starts to yaw :ponder:

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by iFire » 18 Jun 2011, 18:10

Grantness wrote:Actually, I've seen a lot of people use Acc#9 in blowback guns for some reason. Dunno why you would want to, cause #7 is much better suited. Enforcer too. Do not use Lil' Gun in a blowback gun.:
Grant - Accurate #9 works relatively well actually in the PS90... I agree it's not that great in the FsN though...

The reason I liked Accurate #9 in the PS90:

1) High fill volume for beginning / cautious reloaders (cannot be double charged...)
2) Never had the magazine pop up causing a jam (I have had mag pops with AA#7)

Is AA#9 ideal? No. But it does make for some good range/plinking loads out of the PS90..

I have said this before - but there is a suprising amount of difference between the FsN and PS90 as to what works well - Likely Due both to barrel length as well as bolt/slide weight and design...

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by Grantness » 18 Jun 2011, 18:21

Im sure there are huge differences. Crossover has been a bit of a mystery until you came along. Meanwhile, Im dying to get an AR57 upper. What are the odds someone else comes along w/ an Excel that reloads too?

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by iFire » 18 Jun 2011, 21:10

Grantness wrote:ahhh....Excel....wish I was that organized! Best I can do is copy smudged range notes onto the forum :laugh:
I quoted you from the Subsonic post Grant... I didnt want to clutter it with my pics there - thats what this random thread is for :laugh: Anyway...

I like the setup I have with excel - it makes managing my reloading posts SO much easier, just copy and paste and if I get more data I just add it to the excel sheet which auto calculates all of the data for me and I re-copy and paste. Its that easy :thumb:

What Excel Looks Like - The actual shot data doesnt get transfered, just the first 4 columns of data...

Image

What that translates to on the forum -

Image

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by panzermk2 » 18 Jun 2011, 22:44

One of the things I am noticing with the new FsN reciol spring.

Ammo testing today S4M and S4
Hardly any shoulder movement at all, looks like SS195 brass.
100 fps increase in velocity. About I had a hard time getting consistent measurements out side of the noramlvaraitions
Primers where more beat up.


Looks like with the barrel held closed longer and the shoulder not moving the primer takes a beating. Lil Gun may be back in the running. Just saying.
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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by VeTTeMaNC486 » 19 Jun 2011, 05:31

panzermk2 wrote:One of the things I am noticing with the new FsN reciol spring.

Ammo testing today S4M and S4
Hardly any shoulder movement at all, looks like SS195 brass.
100 fps increase in velocity. About I had a hard time getting consistent measurements out side of the noramlvaraitions
Primers where more beat up.


Looks like with the barrel held closed longer and the shoulder not moving the primer takes a beating. Lil Gun may be back in the running. Just saying.
100 more fps, wow thats screaming :thumb:

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by iFire » 19 Jun 2011, 05:35

panzermk2 wrote:One of the things I am noticing with the new FsN reciol spring.

Looks like with the barrel held closed longer and the shoulder not moving the primer takes a beating. Lil Gun may be back in the running. Just saying.
Now, add to that the new extended FsN barrel and things will change all over again! More powder burn time in the longer barrel along with the slide held closed longer - Hello Lil'Gun, Enforcer, etc! :D

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by Grantness » 19 Jun 2011, 11:14

Perhaps I might have to buy some Acc#9 and other slower powders... 100fps....mmmm :drool: Throw in the 8" barrel and we're going to have an unstoppable platform!!

Small rifle primers are stronger (in terms of how they hold up) than Small Pistol Magnum, correct? Glue might be in order, but unless you know what you're doing...you're playing w/ fire :furious:

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by iFire » 19 Jun 2011, 12:02

You could always step up to Small Rifle Magnum Primers - they have even thicker cups yet...

Maybe a powder like enforcer or AA#9, etc with a magnum primer would work well in the new 8inch barrel with the heavier spring...

Theres a lot of possibilities... :thumb:

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by VeTTeMaNC486 » 19 Jun 2011, 12:36

Oh how bad I want a FsN to play with you guys. :(
Will probably be my first gift to myself when I graduate.

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by iFire » 19 Jun 2011, 13:20

VeTTeMaNC486 wrote:Oh how bad I want a FsN to play with you guys. :(
Will probably be my first gift to myself when I graduate.
At least you have the PS90. (right?)

While the FsN is really fun to play with, the PS90 is by far and away my favorite gun/design :cool:

I have some top shelf AR's that often sit at home when I head to the range - While the AR's are 'better' in most aspects, that are not nearly as fun to play with :D

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by Grantness » 19 Jun 2011, 16:50

I've never heard of anyone using a Small Rifle Magnum in a PS90 successfully w/ max loads.... Not saying its impossible, just prob inadvisable w/ standard loads.

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by iFire » 19 Jun 2011, 17:22

Grantness wrote:I've never heard of anyone using a Small Rifle Magnum in a PS90 successfully w/ max loads....
I haven't tried them yet but I will here at some point - looks like I'll be the first :D They would work well with the slower powders like Enforcer of AA#9...

There are just soo many possibilities that its hard to try everything :laugh:

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by Grantness » 19 Jun 2011, 18:01

BE CAREFUL

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by VeTTeMaNC486 » 19 Jun 2011, 21:57

iFire wrote:
VeTTeMaNC486 wrote:Oh how bad I want a FsN to play with you guys. :(
Will probably be my first gift to myself when I graduate.
At least you have the PS90. (right?)

While the FsN is really fun to play with, the PS90 is by far and away my favorite gun/design :cool:

I have some top shelf AR's that often sit at home when I head to the range - While the AR's are 'better' in most aspects, that are not nearly as fun to play with :D
Yes, I know. I am fortunate to have it and am not being ungreatful. I honestly knew very little about the round and platform when I purchased it. I didn't really have much desire for a FsN until I started reloading and read some of the speed you guys are getting out of them. 2000+fps out of a pistol is smoking :thumb: .

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by iFire » 20 Jun 2011, 09:02

Turning back to random things: :laugh:

-----

Nosler 35gr Lead Free:

OAL: .736"
BRSF: ~ .320"

Hornady 35gr NTX:

OAL: .730"
BRSF: ~ .225"

Hornady 40gr Vmax:

OAL: .691"
BRSF: ~ .178"

SS195 28gr:

OAL: .814"
BRSF: ~ .325"

Barnes 45gr BS*:

OAL: .760"
BRSF: ~ .330" minus the 2 bands of .060" leaves approx .210" -

*This bullet is made from a different material, so its bound to work differently...

-------

BRSF = Bearing Surface - the best estimates i can make...

As you can see from the above the Nosler 35gr has a substantially larger bearing surface... From the Pictures I have seen it looks like the 35gr Hornady NTX will be much closer to the 40gr Vmax dimensions than the 35gr NLF dimensions.

What that means is yet to be determined in perfomance - It could be very different in the FsN and PS90...

I will post the exact measurements when i get the NTX's in hand :thumb:
Last edited by iFire on 23 Jun 2011, 11:14, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by VeTTeMaNC486 » 20 Jun 2011, 10:45

That is a biggg 35gr bullet. I wonder how it performs in tissue?

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by iFire » 20 Jun 2011, 15:01

VeTTeMaNC486 wrote:That is a biggg 35gr bullet. I wonder how it performs in tissue?
There's definitely a big bearing surface difference between the 35 gr NLF and 40 gr Vmax - thats for sure.

It would be interesting to put some of the new bullets like the 35 NLF and NTX up against say the 40 Vmax in a few different types of expansion and penetration tests in various media...

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by VeTTeMaNC486 » 20 Jun 2011, 15:51

I'm curious, do you happen to have those measurements of the ss195 bullet?

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by iFire » 20 Jun 2011, 16:42

VeTTeMaNC486 wrote:I'm curious, do you happen to have those measurements of the ss195 bullet?
Added the info to the original Bullet comparison post above :thumb:

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by ddouglas » 20 Jun 2011, 20:33

iFire...how is 'bearing surface' defined and how are you measuring it?

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by iFire » 20 Jun 2011, 21:56

Alright - I whipped up a few prototype bullets to help explain bearing surface:

Image

Bearing Surface is shown in Black. 'Bearing Surface' could be defined as any part of the bullet that will contact the rifling.

Example (1) looks similar to a T6. It has the least amount of surface that will come into contact with the rifling.

Example (2) has one of the grooves removed. Because of this, it has more surface area that will touch the rifling.

Example (3) has lots of surface that will come into contact with the rifling. It has the most bearing surface of the three.

---

The best way to measure bearing surface is to take a set of calipers and set it to .222 (for a .224 bullet)

Slide the caliper (pre-set at .222) down the bullet from the tip end until it stops. Mark this point. Measure from the back of the bullet (or, if the bullet has a boat tail, from the joint of the boat tail and main body) to the mark you made in the front. This measurement will be the amount of surface that is in contact with the rifling - aka bearing surface. If the bullet has grooves cut in, subtract the groove distance(s) from your measurement, as this area will not touch the rifling...

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by ddouglas » 21 Jun 2011, 05:38

Thanks. So your 'bearing surface' is a length measurement, not an area measurement. Since the bullet contacts the rifling over it's full 'bearing length', wouldn't the area be a better estimate of friction-related things? And since--using a Vmax, for example--it appears that the radius of the bullet is continually changing over the length, the "depth" of the engagement with the rifling (and thus the amount of friction) changes, doesn't that have an effect also?

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by VeTTeMaNC486 » 21 Jun 2011, 05:44

His measurement is just an approximation, hence the ~ infront of the measurement. It is just to give us a reference to compare different bullets. I guess you could be all scientific about it, but there isn't really much of a point, considering the data is just being used to compare different bullets.

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by iFire » 21 Jun 2011, 06:24

ddouglas wrote:Thanks. So your 'bearing surface' is a length measurement, not an area measurement. Since the bullet contacts the rifling over it's full 'bearing length', wouldn't the area be a better estimate of friction-related things?

Well, technically since the Bearing Surface length measurement is for equal bullets of .224 diameter, then the length measurement is in direct proportion to the surface area in contact with the rifling...
ddouglas wrote:And since--using a Vmax, for example--it appears that the radius of the bullet is continually changing over the length, the "depth" of the engagement with the rifling (and thus the amount of friction) changes, doesn't that have an effect also?
I see what your saying about the radius/diameter changing - but in reality there is only a certain diameter of the bullet that will contact the rifling - the exact amount depends on the gun and the depth of the rifling. Often times in a .224 gun the grooves will run approx - .0025" I believe. That means that any portion of the bullet greater than .219" in diameter will touch the rifling - anything smaller than .219" will not touch the rifling. So, that means that any part of the bullet greater than .219" is consider the Bearing Surface of the bullet.

Also the material and hardness of the bullet play a role in friction too - the cuts seen in bullets like EA's T6 and Barnes 45gr BS not only relieve pressure by elimination bearing surface, but they also provide a place for the metal of the bullet to 'flow into' as it is being compressed by the barrel's rifling - further eliminating friction that would have been in the form of compressed resistance.

No need to get too complicated though :laugh: The whole reason behind the bearing surface topic is generally to get an idea of what to expect in terms of comparisson between different bullets.

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by iFire » 21 Jun 2011, 09:10

A few more random prototype designs - now if I could only get to actually making some of these... That would be fun

Image

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by VeTTeMaNC486 » 21 Jun 2011, 09:20

iFire wrote:A few more random prototype designs - now if I could only get to actually making some of these... That would be fun

Image
Projected weights? I'm assuming <40grs?

They look alot like EA's tridents, wouldn't it be easier to just purchase some for loading?

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by iFire » 21 Jun 2011, 09:37

VeTTeMaNC486 wrote:
They look alot like EA's tridents, wouldn't it be easier to just purchase some for loading?
It would be fun to make them on a mini-lathe hooked into the computer or something like that for experimenting. And yes it would be way easier to get some similar bullets from EA or Barnes... I just thought it would be fun to make some as well one day for a winter time project or something like that...

The top ones look like EA trident's and the bottom look like the Barnes BS's - It would be tough to radically deviate from either of the two designs - obviuosly there is only so much that can be done. It would just be neat to fire up a lathe and turn out some bullets for testing. Load them up and see how they perform. Then wash, rinse and repeat :D

Maybe even make some turned wadcutters... Who knows :p

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by Grantness » 21 Jun 2011, 10:25

Be fun to experiment with different metal too... (so long as they are legal).

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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by panzermk2 » 21 Jun 2011, 13:02

You do realize we have made all of those?


Image

Image

Image

Image


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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Post by iFire » 21 Jun 2011, 14:37

panzermk2 wrote:You do realize we have made all of those?
Well, I knew you made the 28gr for the T6... So yeah, I knew you made one like the top illustration - but I didnt know that you had so many different weights: 28, 30, 32, 36?

I had done some prototype bullets in illustrator a long time ago so i thought I would clean them up and post it just for fun...

Anyway I assume the 28 gr was the best and thats why you went with it?
Grantness wrote:Be fun to experiment with different metal too... (so long as they are legal).
Yeah it would be fun to play with different metals too (if their indeed Legit) - It would be a fun project for sure :thumb:

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