Winchester AutoComp in the PS90 - very impressed

Reloading info for the 5.7x28mm

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iFire
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Winchester AutoComp in the PS90 - very impressed

Post by iFire » 16 Apr 2011, 13:19

AutoComp will now be the powder I use in many of my 5.7 loads for the PS90!

True Blue is still a fine choice for use in the FsN pistol and will continue to have its place.. But if you load for the PS90 you may find AutoComp to be superior in many ways.

Metering: I dropped and measured AutoComp charges from my Dillon and found them to have no appreciable variance in charge. +\- .05 grs seems to be the max variance...

Case fill: similar to true blue, case fill is somewhere around 50% (depending on bullet type and charge)

Consistency: Extremely consistent powder often times in the 15 fps standard deviation range... Again similar to true blue.

Power: AutoComp has good power potential in the 5.7x28 - it is less than true blue in terms of max loads but only by around 75 fps... Most people aren't loading at the max anyway...

Function: Heres where AutoComp really shines. It "feels" great in the pistol and functions even better in the PS90 - true blue has always given me trouble in the PS90 in terms of having the mag pop up with medium to max loads from time to time... AutoComp does not exhibit this same trait as true blue, and does not cause the mag to pop up. In fact it doesnt even cause the mag catch to move much or at all! AutoComp also seems to run cleaner than true blue.

Another neat trait is that you can "hear" the powder when you shake the round. This is significant in the fact that you can shake the round and hear the AutoComp shuffle back and forth. With true blue it is Very difficult to hear, if at all... Why is this important? Well it shouldn't be really, but with all the KB's by some lately at least with the AutoComp you could shake it to help guarantee that it is not double charged. If it was double charged, you wouldn't hear it shuffle back and forth, a double charge would either be compressed or filled with such a high volume that you wouldn't hear it slide back and forth. Just an added bonus of AutoComp. But dont use this as your only "safety check" - it is just and Added measure of safety...

If you shoot an AutoComp load and a true blue load side by side you would notice the difference in recoil and "feel" of loads that produce identical velocities... AutoComp is very impressive.

AutoComp is not for beginners however. It is "more" powerful per grain than true blue. However it's fill volume is greater than true blue... All in all you can still double charge with AutoComp... And a double charge would still produce a nasty KB equal to that of true blue. Be careful...

PS90 load example:

5.4 grs of AutoComp with a 40 gr Vmax ran 2250 fps average out of the PS90 with a standard deviation of 17 fps - perfect function and normal shoulder movement. It is a good solid load for everyday shooting that produces around 450 ft lbs of energy (compared to 400 ft lbs from ss197 ammo)

Overall I will be leaning heavily towards using AutoComp from here on, and will post more data as I develop it in my reloading threads! :D
Last edited by iFire on 31 May 2011, 11:34, edited 5 times in total.

dwk5150
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Re: AutoComp in the 5.7 - very impressed

Post by dwk5150 » 16 Apr 2011, 15:07

Do you have any velocities for in the 57? I have autocomp and never tried it.

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Re: AutoComp in the 5.7 - very impressed

Post by Bones » 16 Apr 2011, 15:17

Way to go I fire. What I would love is a compressed load. Kinda like using varget in a 556 load. Then less worries of having a kaboom. That's the stuff that scares the hell out a me. Good job on the load.

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Re: AutoComp in the 5.7 - very impressed

Post by iFire » 17 Apr 2011, 05:07

Bones wrote:Way to go I fire. What I would love is a compressed load. Kinda like using varget in a 556 load. Then less worries of having a kaboom. That's the stuff that scares the hell out a me. Good job on the load.
There are some possibilities for compressed loads, but they mainly exist with the ss195 pulled 28 gr bullet - as you go to the heavier bullets like the 40 gr Vmax It becomes nearly impossible to get a compressed load that would work well.

Since the 5.7x28 (and the PS90 and FsN more specifically) run on straight blowback operation, the timing has to be right on the money for good function. Just about any powder that would fill the case 100% would be "too slow" burning to work efficiently and would either not function or yield such a low velocity that it would be otherwise useless. Another problem would be that the casings on slower burning powders tend to have very large shoulder movement, really stretching out the brass. Also, when you get to compressed loads you run into consistency problems burning your powder up in a straight blowback - you would see large variances from shot to shot if you tried to use that much fill volume. Varget works pretty good in the 5.56 because there is an amount of time allowed for the chamber to be locked in semi's giving it the chance to get a good burn...

I have written some info about the use of Accurate #9 by begginners and those looking for just a plinking load - Accurate #9 gives you approximately a 60% fill of the case (+/- depending on your load). Since it is over a 50% fill, a double charge is "impossible" and would help to eliminate someone from being able to fit two charges into one casing and then load it. If you were to put in two charges, powder would spill out and let you know you screwed up. Accurate #9 works pretty well both in the PS90 and in the FsN and makes for a decent load - It just isnt quite as consistent in my findings as true blue or autocomp and will have a higher Standard deviation in the FPS category.

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Re: AutoComp in the 5.7 - very impressed

Post by iFire » 17 Apr 2011, 09:32

dwk5150 wrote:Do you have any velocities for in the 57? I have autocomp and never tried it.
See topic: viewtopic.php?f=19&t=9658" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I also have PS90 data...

quick look at some FsN Data:

iFire's Data
FsN

➢➢➢➢➢➢➢➢➢
40 Gr Vmax
AutoComp
5.7
Average 1916
Notes: functioned
➢➢➢➢➢➢➢➢➢
40 Gr Vmax
AutoComp
5.8
Average 1929
Notes: functioned
➢➢➢➢➢➢➢➢➢
40 Gr Vmax
AutoComp
5.9
Average 1949
Notes: functioned well
➢➢➢➢➢➢➢➢➢
40 Gr Vmax
AutoComp
6.0 *Max*
Average 1978
Notes: Max Charge - primers looked ok on all shots
➢➢➢➢➢➢➢➢➢
40 Gr Vmax
AutoComp
6.1 *Danger*
Average 1933
Notes: Do not load at or above this charge
➢➢➢➢➢➢➢➢➢
Attention: If you have a red dot on your gun, you cannot load to this data! I had pierced primers at 5.9 grs (functioned and ejected though) with my Delta Point Mounted - So make a note of this if your running a red dot! I have to do some more testing, but im guessing the max will be 5.7 or 5.8 grs... Just make sure you work up Cautiously!

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Re: AutoComp in the PS90 - very impressed

Post by iFire » 30 May 2011, 17:17

AutoComp is simply amazing in the PS90 for consistency... Here are just a few strings! Just amazing Standard Deviations!

Additionally, all of these loads are coming out of my Dillon - There not "individually loaded" - which is even more impressive...

----

~ 5.0grs - 2169 fps / N=18 / Stand. Dev. - 10 fps

~ 5.1grs - 2187 fps / N=17 / Stand. Dev. - 9 fps

~ 5.2grs - 2215 fps / N=14 / Stand. Dev. -11 fps

~ 5.4grs - 2283 fps / N=10 / Stand. Dev. - 6 fps

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Re: Winchester AutoComp in the PS90 - very impressed

Post by Bones » 30 May 2011, 17:26

Great work sir. Pm inbound on more 5.7 brass if you need it?

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Re: Winchester AutoComp in the PS90 - very impressed

Post by Grantness » 31 May 2011, 08:24

Great work iFire! I was always interested in autocomp, but never got around to it. The burn rate is a littler slower than HS6, so I always assumed it would be a good alternative. However, I figured that since it was still a little on the fast side it wouldn't be able to attain the velocities of TB, Acc#7, HS7, and others. Functionality in a PS90 never occurred to me. That is an excellent idea! Whenever I get around to acquiring an AR57, Autocomp will definitely be on my list :D

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Re: Winchester AutoComp in the PS90 - very impressed

Post by ddouglas » 31 May 2011, 10:45

GRANT! You're back! Welcome! We've missed you! You and iFire would make a great team!

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Re: Winchester AutoComp in the PS90 - very impressed

Post by Grantness » 31 May 2011, 11:50

He has certainly posted a lot of great material. I've only read a small portion so far. I have a lot of catching up to do :D

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Re: Winchester AutoComp in the PS90 - very impressed

Post by iFire » 01 Jun 2011, 05:27

Welcome Back Grantness :thumb:
Grantness wrote:Great work iFire! I was always interested in autocomp, but never got around to it. The burn rate is a littler slower than HS6, so I always assumed it would be a good alternative. However, I figured that since it was still a little on the fast side it wouldn't be able to attain the velocities of TB, Acc#7, HS7, and others.
True. Autocomp can't attain the same "velocities" in theory, but in reality guns like the PS90 or AR57 cant handle the potential that those powders have anyway... TB in my experiences, and sometimes AA#7 cause the magazine to pop up or the gun to jam due to misfeeds from the mag. So even though I have climbed all the way up over 2500 fps with a 40gr and TB, I have had to back all the way down to around 2200 fps to make it reliable (and even at that point I have still not shot enough to fully trust it...) Longhsot and AutoComp may have ceiling in the PS90 of around 2350 to 2400 fps for instance, but are able to reliably cycle loads in the 2300-2350 fps range without any problems (maybe even higher once i test more). So "potential" is subjective when it comes to these platforms :D
Grantness wrote:Functionality in a PS90 never occurred to me. That is an excellent idea! Whenever I get around to acquiring an AR57, Autocomp will definitely be on my list :D
The very best powders with the FsN proved to be the worst in reliability in the PS90 for me at least. I struggled to find reliability from TB or AA#7 unless I had them loaded at or under ~ 2200 fps

Longshot, HS6, AutoComp, WSF are just a few powders that worked well in the PS90 - On the Slow side Enforcer worked suprisingly well too in the limited strings I have put through it.

I could go one forever... one post at a time I guess :laugh:

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Re: Winchester AutoComp in the PS90 - very impressed

Post by Grantness » 01 Jun 2011, 09:50

I've also read good things about Autocomp w/ .40... Which would be another good reason for me to buy it once i get an AR57. Have you tested VVN105 (which is slower than TB) or even VVN350? I've found VVN105 in particular to work well in both the FsN and my T/C Contender. Alliant Proreach is supposed to have a burn rate similar to longshot, but the limited testing I did was mixed. Some strings were promising though... I've contacted Alliant to see if they can give me any burn rate info on their new(?) Extra-Lite 12ga shotgun powder, but havn't heard back just yet...

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Re: Winchester AutoComp in the PS90 - very impressed

Post by iFire » 03 Jun 2011, 09:09

Here are few of my prototype loads - Marked in white so I dont mix them up...

Hopefull I will get a chance to do some more testing this evening or tomorrow...

Image

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Re: Winchester AutoComp in the PS90 - very impressed

Post by Grantness » 04 Jun 2011, 12:20

Grantness wrote:I've also read good things about Autocomp w/ .40... Which would be another good reason for me to buy it once i get an AR57. Have you tested VVN105 (which is slower than TB) or even VVN350? I've found VVN105 in particular to work well in both the FsN and my T/C Contender. Alliant Proreach is supposed to have a burn rate similar to longshot, but the limited testing I did was mixed. Some strings were promising though... I've contacted Alliant to see if they can give me any burn rate info on their new(?) Extra-Lite 12ga shotgun powder, but havn't heard back just yet...
Heard back from Ben Amonette at Alliant regarding Extra-Lite 12ga shotgun powder. He said it was very fast burning and not appropriate for the applications I was asking about (5.7x28 and .40). Sent him another email to see if he could give another powder its comparable to. You never know, fast powders can sometimes work well for subsonic loads...

'pologize 'bout the drift :D

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Re: Winchester AutoComp in the PS90 - very impressed

Post by iFire » 04 Jun 2011, 17:10

Grantness wrote:'pologize 'bout the drift :D
Find me 1 thread that hasn't drifted on this forum after 10 posts and I'll mail you a nickel :thumb: :laugh:
Grantness wrote:Heard back from Ben Amonette at Alliant regarding Extra-Lite 12ga shotgun powder. He said it was very fast burning and not appropriate for the applications I was asking about (5.7x28 and .40). Sent him another email to see if he could give another powder its comparable to. You never know, fast powders can sometimes work well for subsonic loads...
Good info...

What powder should be next to test? Any good ideas?? I have a few Ive been considering...

I also have some 'Top Secret' load data I could PM you thats really impressive, but I'm not going to post it on the boards...

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Re: Winchester AutoComp in the PS90 - very impressed

Post by Grantness » 04 Jun 2011, 18:19

well, me as well (i appreciate the offer and would be glad to exchange as much as possible)...but i've signed a NDA on some of it. I really need to do some more thorough testing with Alliant Proreach. I've been dying to get ahold of some European or Australian powders. Alas, all efforts have failed. EA isn't hitting 2600fps out of the FsN with something off the shelf :D I've got some slowish WIN 296 in the cabinet, but always figured I'd test it w/ just my T/C (possibly using the higher capacity EA T/C only brass). IMHO, the sweet spot (for the FsN at least) is somewhere between True Blue and VVN105 give or take. Im always reading gun and reloading mags, so if someone does make a new one, you can be sure I'll investigate :thumb:

There's still a lot of room for good subsonic loads....

EA's new 20lbs FsN barrel spring might change load data a little... so I'll be testing that. If they were to ever make a longer barrel for the FsN, then I'd have tons of new tests to try out. *cough cough*

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Re: Winchester AutoComp in the PS90 - very impressed

Post by iFire » 04 Jun 2011, 18:37

Well I can get some pretty impressive speeds too. But it takes a lot of effort... :D

I have gone over 2150 fps with a 40gr in the FsN and just over 2700 fps with a 40 gr in the PS90 so far with amazing consistency and very low SD's :p
Grantness wrote: EA's new 20lbs FsN barrel spring might change load data a little... so I'll be testing that. If they were to ever make a longer barrel for the FsN, then I'd have tons of new tests to try out. *cough cough*
Well, they already have prototypes :thumb:
Grantness wrote:I've got some slowish WIN 296 in the cabinet
I have some too. I may give it a whirl here sometime, but I am realitively confident that it wont be the best option...

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Re: Winchester AutoComp in the PS90 - very impressed

Post by Grantness » 04 Jun 2011, 18:41

looks like we're pretty much on the same page. Everything available is fairly exhausted. MO (you may or may not know who he was) used to talk about WSF, but the burn rate doesn't seem appropriate. Could try to find some new, interesting bullets...

oh, I wasn't sure if anything had been said about the EA FsN barrels yet... Just bein careful. :)

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Re: Winchester AutoComp in the PS90 - very impressed

Post by iFire » 04 Jun 2011, 18:45

Grantness wrote:looks like we're pretty much on the same page. Everything available is fairly exhausted. MO (you may or may not know who he was) used to talk about WSF, but the burn rate doesn't seem appropriate. Could try to find some new, interesting bullets...
I have used WSF - I have posted a lot of data in my threads. Excellent in the PS90 as far as consistency is concerned. Wasnt that impressed with it in the pistol though...
Grantness wrote: oh, I wasn't sure if anything had been said about the EA FsN barrels yet... Just bein careful. :)
Then you missed this thread:

"Check Out This Surprise Biatches" :lmao:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=10399&p=153216&hili ... es#p153216" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Winchester AutoComp in the PS90 - very impressed

Post by Grantness » 04 Jun 2011, 18:52

ahh good to know. Might be good for a TC (or were velocities just pathetic compared to others?), Could also try to develop subsonics w/ it....

Nice to see some pics. I talked w/ Jay about the barrels the other day as well as a couple other related projects :D Very exciting :thumb:

You've been busy since ~October my friend :laugh:

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