Modifying ss195/198 with epoxy tip

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spyderco monkey
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Modifying ss195/198 with epoxy tip

Post by spyderco monkey » 02 Aug 2014, 04:06

With the shortage of S4M, and the relative complexity of reloading 5.7 for novices, I was wondering it there was another way to go about improving performance of off the shelf SS195 and SS198.

As we all know, the 5.7x28 ss195 is a JHP, but actually just an open tip version of the SS190 minus it's steel tip. The result is large air pocket surrounded by a thin jacket:

Image

The result is that the projectile frequently deforms on impact, both hindering penetration and reducing the overall length of the bullet while tumbling:

Image

My thought was, what if we injected the hollow cavity of the projectile with a high strength epoxy or resin to prevent the tip from collapsing? My hypothesis is that most epoxies are at least as strong as lead, while being lighter, which should allow the SS195 projectile tip to remain intact, rather than collapsing like a hat that's been stepped on.

I've already found a source of needle applicators for epoxy/resin:
Image
http://www.gauntindustries.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The trick now would be to find a suitably strong liquid epoxy that is capable of drying without being exposed to the air. Second choice would be to use resin used for casting.

So:
-Does anyone think this would work, or is worth pursuing?
-Do you think it will add too much weight to the tip, preventing the round from tumbling?
-If it's a go, does anyone have a suggestion for a good injectable epoxy?

DoubleJ
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Re: Modifying ss195/198 with epoxy tip

Post by DoubleJ » 02 Aug 2014, 06:27

I'd think any epoxy would cure, as they use a chemical process instead of air, hence the mixing of two parts. Of course you'd sacrifice the needle, as it would cure inside of that as well. You'd have to work with a slow curing epoxy as well, otherwise you'd be mixing and throwing away needles faster than you'd be filling bullets. Might also want to consider a meplat trimmer to open up the HP for better access. I wasn't aware the 195 was a 190 without the steel pill. Is the jacket steel as well? The 190s jacket will stick to a magnet, although it seems softer than comm bloc surplus steel stuff for ARs and AKs and such. I'm curious to see you move forward with this.

Wait, the 190 isn't an HP design, they're pointy, almost sharp, and appear to have the pill dropped in the nose (some of them rattle) and then the aluminum core swagged in from behind. I've never seen a 195, but it's not made like a normal HP/BT from the front?

spyderco monkey
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Re: Modifying ss195/198 with epoxy tip

Post by spyderco monkey » 03 Aug 2014, 07:49

Hmmm, well I'm not sure if it's strictly identical, but the basic composition between the ss195 and the ss190 are similar, minus the steel cone in the 190:

Image

I'm going to look into a suitably liquid epoxy. I wanted to use JB weld but I think it's too thick.

DoubleJ
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Re: Modifying ss195/198 with epoxy tip

Post by DoubleJ » 03 Aug 2014, 08:20

You could dribble JB weld in, but that would be terrible, and it thickens up fast, into a paste. I wonder if there isn't something you could heat up, like a plastic, and use to fill? I've seen those poly tipped bullets vaporize while the poly tip was still recognizable. Big challenge will be getting it in there, but if it was something that went liquid at like 150 you could use a double boiler and do it by hand, even keeping your injection method hot. Wish I still knew people at the injection place I used to work, bet we could figure soemthing out.

spyderco monkey
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Re: Modifying ss195/198 with epoxy tip

Post by spyderco monkey » 03 Aug 2014, 08:41

This looks like a low viscocity plastic. 3000psi compressive strength is pretty decent.
http://www.smooth-on.com/Urethane-Plast ... index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Still on the hunt for something stronger while remaining needle injectable.

DoubleJ
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Re: Modifying ss195/198 with epoxy tip

Post by DoubleJ » 03 Aug 2014, 11:38

You might have nailed it right there, no heat needed, and that slow curing stuff said it'll live in the pot for 15-20 minutes. If you look into the slot car industry, we have little oilers and such that use a bottle with basically a not sharp hypo needle on the end for lubing bearings and such. You might have to open that meplat up a bit, but I bet you could mix that resin, fill the bottle, and go nuts filling bullets with plastic before it cured. Even if you over filled them, just break the tip off after it cures. I'd think so long as it kept the nose from collapsing, even if it deformed a bit, you'd have a bullet that would tumble as soon as it entered bad guy and do some bad stuff in there.

Edit: Wonder how thick the plastic is? This oil is similar to 3 in 1. I also ran a good magnet over a 195, nothing ferrous in there at all.
Image

spyderco monkey
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Re: Modifying ss195/198 with epoxy tip

Post by spyderco monkey » 04 Aug 2014, 01:17

Based on this chart and the manufacturers spec, the plastic has a liquid viscosity similar to motor oil. Its' 80cps
http://www.vp-scientific.com/Viscosity_Tables.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm going to contact the manufacturer and see if they think it would work out of an oiler needle.

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Re: Modifying ss195/198 with epoxy tip

Post by panzermk2 » 04 Aug 2014, 11:26

If it was me I would fill it with Bee's wax.

NOTE: Bee wax NOT paraffin wax.
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Re: Modifying ss195/198 with epoxy tip

Post by grimmond » 04 Aug 2014, 18:30

panzermk2 wrote:If it was me I would fill it with Bee's wax.

NOTE: Bee wax NOT paraffin wax.
OK Jay, you have really peaked my curiosity with that. What's the reason, or what purpose does that serve in relation to preventing the tip from smashing?
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DoubleJ
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Re: Modifying ss195/198 with epoxy tip

Post by DoubleJ » 04 Aug 2014, 18:31

I'm curious too, I use a beeswax based lube on my cast 38s, and it's mooshy as hell, and sticky, and melty when it's hot out, and stinky. Parafin is harder, isn't it?

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Re: Modifying ss195/198 with epoxy tip

Post by Rapier1772 » 04 Aug 2014, 18:42

Knowing Jay, he may just be trying to see how messy he can make you get your work bench :laugh: Oh wait, that's me :p
Contrary to popular belief, you CAN fix stupid - it's just illegal.
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panzermk2
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Re: Modifying ss195/198 with epoxy tip

Post by panzermk2 » 05 Aug 2014, 09:12

Pure bees wax melts at temp much higher then paraffin wax, The bees wax you have has been mixed with all sorts of stuff.

Pure Bees was is much harder then paraffin.

Bee 144 to 147 °F

Paraffin 99 °F


It would make the round act like an ultra light FMJ. It will still deform slightly but not near as much.
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spyderco monkey
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Re: Modifying ss195/198 with epoxy tip

Post by spyderco monkey » 05 Aug 2014, 18:43

panzermk2 wrote:Pure bees wax melts at temp much higher then paraffin wax, The bees wax you have has been mixed with all sorts of stuff.

Pure Bees was is much harder then paraffin.

Bee 144 to 147 °F

Paraffin 99 °F


It would make the round act like an ultra light FMJ. It will still deform slightly but not near as much.
Thanks Jay, that sounds like another interesting option. I assume the wax would need to be melted, and then injected while it's hot?

Also, with either the plastic or wax option, do you think it would be safe to use with S4M? My concern is that the extra grains of weight might lead to a pressure spike,

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Re: Modifying ss195/198 with epoxy tip

Post by panzermk2 » 05 Aug 2014, 20:29

spyderco monkey wrote: Also, with either the plastic or wax option, do you think it would be safe to use with S4M? My concern is that the extra grains of weight might lead to a pressure spike,
You better believe it will be an issue.
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spyderco monkey
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Re: Modifying ss195/198 with epoxy tip

Post by spyderco monkey » 05 Aug 2014, 21:22

panzermk2 wrote:
spyderco monkey wrote: Also, with either the plastic or wax option, do you think it would be safe to use with S4M? My concern is that the extra grains of weight might lead to a pressure spike,
You better believe it will be an issue.
Ah, very good to know. My still functioning hand thanks you.

Do you think there will be a safety concern with the lower pressure ss198?

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Re: Modifying ss195/198 with epoxy tip

Post by bruteandbear1 » 06 Aug 2014, 09:33

There absolutely will be, when u add extra weight to any projectile it will be a safety concern. This all depends on how much weight you add. I dont think adding a couple of grains will matter for 198 but I would still be very careful. It was safely loaded for a 27 grain bullet and thats it!!! I would not touch that with a 40 foot pole.

DoubleJ
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Re: Modifying ss195/198 with epoxy tip

Post by DoubleJ » 09 Aug 2014, 17:33

Any further developments? I wanna see the jello testing!

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Re: Modifying ss195/198 with epoxy tip

Post by DoubleJ » 11 Aug 2014, 15:27

Does that polymer stuff expand when it cures? Would be good for pushing any air out of the cavity, more consistant.

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