Use Of 5.7 Pistol For Concealed Carry Gun

[Synthetic]

I've got some guys giving me a hard time concerning the use of the 5.7 pistol for concealed carry. I'm sure you've all heard the story of some guy getting shot by law enforcement 18 times with a 5.7 and still not going down.

They're giving me the old, "That round is nothing more than a 22 mag." talk...

Where can I find some evidence of stopping power from the 5.7 so I can "exchange" some words with them? Heheheheh

Thanks...

[MrSlippyFist]

Haven't heard that story. I've heard the story of a crackhead getting shot more than a dozen times with either 9mm or .40 (can't remember which) and not going down, but not that one.

Who exactly is giving you a hard time?

[Synthetic]

Some at United States Concealed Carry Association...

[Synthetic]

Here is one of the posts from a member of the United States Concealed Carry Association..Everything within the [ brackets ] is the post.


[That shooting mirrors what other agencies have seen with the 5.7 cartridge. It is basicly nothing more than a 22 Mag and isn't something I'd use to protect myself if given a choice.

Here is something I dug up:

Quote:
"The 5.7 pistol as a carry gun is a mistake for all the reasons Doc stated. There are far more effective weapons and ammunition combinations out there. The only factor that comes close to equalizing the P90 (not the 5.7 pistol) is it's full auto capability: 900 rpm of very controllable fire. Even this advantage is limited to close-in, CQB type engagements. I can put more rounds on target faster with the P90 than with my M4 in close contact engagements. Unfortunately you may HAVE to put more rounds in the threat due to the lack of damage the projectile causes. We have been using 30 P90's for five years now. There have been three BG's shot with them. We will not be buying more...Using SS190 and a suppressor will lead to cracks in the frame around the barrel support lock (takedown button). This is a result of the increase in back pressure....But then between me and the guy sitting next to me right now we have only been in a couple of gunfights with them so take what I say with a grain of salt...for those still interested in listening to real world experience with the P90 and SS190 ammo. The round is far less effective than 5.56 and many other widely used defensive loads. You want to wrap your life around the 5.7/P90 system knock yourself out. I am not trying to be a dick to you but my agency has more operation experience with the system then ANY and our verdict is it is far less effective than advertised. "
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[Synthetic]

Here is a post about the "18" shots (it was not from the FN handgun but the P90..post is everything in the [ brackets ]..


[ NCPatrolAR NCPatrolAR is online now
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I know of one agency that shot a suspect 18 times with a P90 without a stop. They arent big fans of them, but keep the P90s for the compact size when doing undercover work.
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[Synthetic]

Here is another post from the USCCA web site about the 5.7 round..


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Default Penetration and Momentum
I did some ballistic modeling with this cartridge and here's what I discovered: I was surprised when its predicted ability to penetrate barriers exceeded everything 9, 38, 40, 45, up past even the 357 magnum. Penetration here means getting through the hard part (like soft body armor), NOT penetration distance.
2- The total momentum (velocity X grains) of various popular handgun cartridges and representative "best" (for penetration) projectile weights is as follows:
5.7 X 28 FN 40 grain = 78,000 (estimated penetration only slightly higher than the below 140, 158 grain 357 magnum cartridges.)
357 Magnum 158 (and also 140) grain = 196,000
5.7 X 28 FN 28 grain = 64,000
17 HMR 17 (pistol) = 35,000
9 Luger 147 grain - 147,000
(40 S&W 155 grain "ties" with the above 9 Luger 147 grain = 187,000)
40 S&W 180 grain (very similar to the 155 and 165 grainers) = 180,000
38 Special 158 grain (FBI Load) = 141,000
45 ACP 230 grain = 201,000
22LR 40 grain (rifle) = 50,000
38 Special 125 +P = 118,000
380 Auto 102 grain = 96,000
(This list reflects the predicted penetration of a non-expanding projectile from most-to-least, top-to-bottom, with total momentum rounded to the nearest 1,000 following each description)
The above momentum based penetration isn't corrected for projectile diameter or expansion, but I think just the sheer magnitude of momentum available sheds light on the penetration distance that's likely with any given cartridge. Even without having expanding projectiles I wonder how far the 5.7 X 28 FN is going to penetrate into a target after defeating barrier material. Is "acceptable" penetration distance after barrier penetration based on the military (wounding) or the concealed carry (fight stopping) penetration standards?
.
Since total available momentum equates pretty well to recoil, the listing also suggests how much recoil a shooter is going to have to endure to get the best predicted penetration with each cartridge, generally assuming all handguns are the same weight.
.
As a point of interest, here are the same cartridges and loads, this time sorted by kinetic energy instead of momentum based penetraion potential (again, high to low):
357 Mag 140 grain
357 Mag 158 grain
40 S&W 155 grain
40 S&W 165 grain
40 S&W 180 grain
45 ACP 230 grain
5.7 X 28 40 grain
5.7 X 28 28 grain
9 Luger 147 grain
38 Special +P 158 grain (FBI)
38 Special +P 125 grain
17 HMR (Rifle) 17 grain
380 Auto 102 grain
22 LR (Rifle) 40 grain
I think sorting by kinetic energy gives a listing more familiar to most shooters. Kinetic energy doesn't relate as well to penetration depth as the momentum based models do. Comparing the two lists will help readers understand why the application of theory can get complex fast.
.
Without barrier material to defeat, if the projectile doesn't fragment, I think the 5.7 X 28 FN will penetrate a lot...think of how well the 22LR does at about1200 fps with similar weight projectiles.
.
I would be very interested to find out how the 5.7 X 28 FN has performed (both in terms or ability to penetrate and also penetration distance) in calibrated ballistic gelatin, through various barriers (denim, sheetrock, glass), also any hunting results.
.
Another important fact for reloaders is that the untapered 5.7 X 28 cartridge apparently requires a "special" polymer coating for proper feeding and case extraction, something that probably can't be duplicated by reloaders, so reloading for this cartridge is probably not an option. Has anybody tried reloading the 5.7 X 28 FN? Did you think it was successful? Worth doing again? Worth recommending? ]

[Buffman]

that sounds like the standard mumbo jumbo from the same individuals that DDS roberts knows and supports.

People who are against this cartridge often site sources that either lack no way to proove source, or don't have any worthwhile information in said article. For instance "I had a FSN, but it didnt' perform so I went back to a Glock"


The one incident with 18 rounds was the one probably from Jacksonville Swat, and people claim the bG said "stop shooting me". A report that finally surfaced (posted on here), details such an incident with one p90 firing a burst, and ending BG's life without such statement being made. Obvious by the BG events at Ft Hood, 18 rds of ss197sr aren't needed to down someone... (Rest their souls)
Most of them should know "1 shot stops" are never a guarantee with pistol rounds, and shot placement is big key thing.

[Synthetic]

Here's a post from the USCCA web site that was just posted a few minutes ago...

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From Gary Roberts:

Quote:
Several papers have described the incredibly poor terminal performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm projectiles fired by the FN P90:

--Dahlstrom D, Powley K, and Gordon C: “Wound Profile of the FN Cartridge (SS 190) Fired from the FN P90 Submachine Gun". Wound Ballistic Review. 4(3):21-26; Spring 2000.
--Fackler M: "Errors & Omissions", Wound Ballistic Review. 1(1):46; Winter 1991.
--Fackler M: "More on the Bizarre Fabrique National P-90", Wound Ballistic Review. 3(1):44-45; 1997.
--FBI Academy Firearms Training Unit. FBI Handgun Ammunition Tests 1989-1995. Quantico, U.S. Department of Justice--Federal Bureau of Investigation.
--Hayes C: “Personal Defense Weapons—Answer in Search of a Question”, Wound Ballistic Review. 5(1):30-36; Spring 2001.
--Roberts G: “Preliminary Evaluation of the Terminal Performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm 23 Grain FMJ Bullet Fired by the New FN P-90 , Using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant”, AFTE Journal. 30(2):326-329, Spring 1998.

The current 31 gr SS-190 FMJ bullet has nearly adequate penetration, but the wound resulting from this projectile has a relatively small permanent crush cavity, as well as an insignificant temporary stretch cavity. Although the 5.7 x 28 mm penetrates soft body armor, wounding potential is at best like a .22 LR or .22 Magnum. Even 9mm NATO FMJ makes a larger wound--and we are all aware of the awe inspiring incapacitation potential of M882 ball from the M9......

A few large U.S. LE agencies adopted 5.7 mm weapons--after being involved in several OIS incidents with P90's, 5.7 mm usage in these agencies plummeted as a result of the poor terminal performance.

It is all basic physics and physiology. Look at the surface areas in contact with tissue for 9 mm FMJ and JHP compared to 5.7 mm. When both are point forward, the 9 mm FMJ crushes more tissue than the 5.7 mm; for the short time that the 5.7 mm is at FULL yaw, it crushes a bit more tissue than the 9 mm FMJ. At no time does the 5.7 mm crush more tissue than the expanded 9 mm JHP--even when the 5.7 mm FMJ is at full yaw, an expanded 9 mm JHP crushes more tissue. The relatively small temporary cavities produced by both the 9 mm and 5.7 mm projectiles are not likely to cause significant injury to the majority of elastic structures of the body. As with any penetrating projectile, if either a 9 mm or 5.7 mm bullet is ideally placed to cause significant damage to the CNS or major cardiovascular organs, a fatal result is likely.



The P90 can definitely penetrate soft body armor, but then so can 9 mm AP rounds. The greater momentum of 9 mm bullets allow them to defeat vehicles and other intermediate barriers better than the 5.7 mm bullets. Standard 9 mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP JHP loads crush more tissue, offer ideal penetration, and are equally likely to not exit the opponent as the 5.7 mm. 5.56 mm and 6.8 mm weapons offer significantly superior terminal effects compared to 5.7 mm. Bottom line—what does the P90 offer that is not already available?
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[f3rr37]

The P90 can definitely penetrate soft body armor, but then so can 9 mm AP rounds. The greater momentum of 9 mm bullets allow them to defeat vehicles and other intermediate barriers better than the 5.7 mm bullets. Standard 9 mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP JHP loads crush more tissue, offer ideal penetration, and are equally likely to not exit the opponent as the 5.7 mm. 5.56 mm and 6.8 mm weapons offer significantly superior terminal effects compared to 5.7 mm. Bottom line—what does the P90 offer that is not already available?
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Good luck finding 9mm AP rounds.

[MrSlippyFist]

None of these arguments with the P90 are relevant to the FsN as a concealed defensive weapon. Even if 5.7x28 is lacking in what many call a lack of stopping power, which may or may not be true, doesn't it make up for said shortcoming with higher capacity, quicker follow up shots, lower recoil, better accuracy, better accuracy at longer range.....

[High-Gear]

There was a bad guy shot in NOLA 40+ times with 9mm and .223 and a slug to the chest before a shot to the head took him down. Does this prove anything? No, just that you can put a lot of bullets into a person before their body gives out on them.

Short of a shot to the central nervous system (brain), or a person quitting after realizing they have been shot, a person is stopped due to a drop in blood pressure resulting in unconsciousness. It takes time to bleed. If you were able to instantly drain all of the blood out of a person's body at once, they would be able to maintain consciousness for up to 10 seconds. How many times can you pull the trigger in 10 seconds? If a person is drunk, on drugs, mentally disturbed, or very highly motivated they can soak up a lot of damage from any firearm round and keep coming.

[rocketsurgery]

I actually went to a shop to purchase a 5-7. The gentleman who was to sell me it told me when he tested the gun, the bullets wouldn't knock over the steel plate targets he has at his range, when he test fired it.

He was fairly against the caliber, to be honest. I don't know the weights of the steel plates, or else I would gladly calculate the kinetic energy a 5.7 bullet would need to impart to knock them over, so don't rely on this statement. But his statement was that they would tremor when fired upon.

I didn't purchase the gun that day. Hmph.

[Synthetic]

Here is a response I gave on the USCCA web site where the FiveseveN is taking some flak...

Here's my post..

I don't train for center mass. I train using point shooting at the head, the throat and just below the throat above center mass.

My reason for this gun for concealed carry purposes is this:

I wanted a gun that is light when fully loaded.
I wanted a gun with high capacity number of rounds.
I wanted a gun that has very little recoil so I can stay on target.
I wanted a gun that uses light ammunition.
I wanted a gun that can shoot short distances accurately.
I wanted a gun that can shoot long distances accurately with very little drop.
I wanted a gun that is comfortable to shoot.
I wanted a gun that is comfortable to carry.
I wanted a gun that is built well and is dependable.
I wanted a gun that can use several types of ammunition for several types of uses.
I wanted a gun that uses ammunition that can also be shot in a rifle.
I wanted a gun that has good resale value.
I wanted a gun that is just plain cool!

The FN FiveseveN 5.7 meets all of my above wants...How could I not have one?

[Synthetic]

Just to be fair I am also getting positive comments about the FiveseveN a the USCCA web site. It is not all negative...

[Buffman]

Here's a post from the USCCA web site that was just posted a few minutes ago...

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Location: NC
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From Gary Roberts:

Quote:
Several papers have described the incredibly poor terminal performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm projectiles fired by the FN P90:

--Dahlstrom D, Powley K, and Gordon C: “Wound Profile of the FN Cartridge (SS 190) Fired from the FN P90 Submachine Gun". Wound Ballistic Review. 4(3):21-26; Spring 2000.
--Fackler M: "Errors & Omissions", Wound Ballistic Review. 1(1):46; Winter 1991.
--Fackler M: "More on the Bizarre Fabrique National P-90", Wound Ballistic Review. 3(1):44-45; 1997.
--FBI Academy Firearms Training Unit. FBI Handgun Ammunition Tests 1989-1995. Quantico, U.S. Department of Justice--Federal Bureau of Investigation.
--Hayes C: “Personal Defense Weapons—Answer in Search of a Question”, Wound Ballistic Review. 5(1):30-36; Spring 2001.
--Roberts G: “Preliminary Evaluation of the Terminal Performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm 23 Grain FMJ Bullet Fired by the New FN P-90 , Using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant”, AFTE Journal. 30(2):326-329, Spring 1998.

The current 31 gr SS-190 FMJ bullet has nearly adequate penetration, but the wound resulting from this projectile has a relatively small permanent crush cavity, as well as an insignificant temporary stretch cavity. Although the 5.7 x 28 mm penetrates soft body armor, wounding potential is at best like a .22 LR or .22 Magnum. Even 9mm NATO FMJ makes a larger wound--and we are all aware of the awe inspiring incapacitation potential of M882 ball from the M9......

A few large U.S. LE agencies adopted 5.7 mm weapons--after being involved in several OIS incidents with P90's, 5.7 mm usage in these agencies plummeted as a result of the poor terminal performance.

It is all basic physics and physiology. Look at the surface areas in contact with tissue for 9 mm FMJ and JHP compared to 5.7 mm. When both are point forward, the 9 mm FMJ crushes more tissue than the 5.7 mm; for the short time that the 5.7 mm is at FULL yaw, it crushes a bit more tissue than the 9 mm FMJ. At no time does the 5.7 mm crush more tissue than the expanded 9 mm JHP--even when the 5.7 mm FMJ is at full yaw, an expanded 9 mm JHP crushes more tissue. The relatively small temporary cavities produced by both the 9 mm and 5.7 mm projectiles are not likely to cause significant injury to the majority of elastic structures of the body. As with any penetrating projectile, if either a 9 mm or 5.7 mm bullet is ideally placed to cause significant damage to the CNS or major cardiovascular organs, a fatal result is likely.



The P90 can definitely penetrate soft body armor, but then so can 9 mm AP rounds. The greater momentum of 9 mm bullets allow them to defeat vehicles and other intermediate barriers better than the 5.7 mm bullets. Standard 9 mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP JHP loads crush more tissue, offer ideal penetration, and are equally likely to not exit the opponent as the 5.7 mm. 5.56 mm and 6.8 mm weapons offer significantly superior terminal effects compared to 5.7 mm. Bottom line—what does the P90 offer that is not already available?
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That's the standard rebuttal against the 5.7 cartridge. They post that and typically the picture of the SS90 round next to a good 9mm HP. You'll notice only a few of those articles they list are even fairly current. The only testing that's been done that's even talked about is the SS190 round, and nothing else.

It's a fairly debated cartridge. Although as of late it seems the against side is running out of stuff to post.

I would be willing to bet someone posts an article written comparing to the .22WMR to the 5.7 stating that the SS197 only goes 1500 fps from the FSN a 20% loss or whatever compared to the P90. Which is completely false. Also would bet that if you posted about the FT Hood incident someone would claim "it's a good thing he carried a FSN, as a .45 the innoncent deaths would be far higher". Again they make false assumptions about the BG's shooting ability and how/or lack of how things occurred..

[Synthetic]

I agree with all you said. I think you are correct...good information..

[PainKillaX]

I find it interesting that almost any time there is a cited "failure" of the FsN to perform, it is using SS190. General consensus seems to be that SS190 is mostly over-hyped thanks to GB. It is designed to penetrate, to make a small hole and keep going. If you were to compare 9mm ball ammo to 9mm HP, obviously the HP would make a larger wound. I believe that were these "studies" by these "experts" to be conducted with some of the many options from EA, things would be a lot different.

[Synthetic]

Here's a video I found very interesting.

It is the 5.7 vs 9MM into phone books to show penetration and what happens to the bullet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgXK8SOpvpc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[ChuckD]

I love HollowPoint vs FMJ comparisons.
Take a note that the LATEST published cite was 2001.
That's 9 years ago. I've done research papers and topics from 5 years ago are frowned upon.
Their earliest cite is from 1991. Thats almost 20 years ago.
The simple & plain fact is. There wasn't the ammo choices available back then. Elite didn't exists.( I don't think they did. Just a guess.)
All in all, people love to have this round.
Most will claim it is no better than a .22mag, even though this round doesn't require a 22" barrel to achieve its velocity. Many ignore and continue to hate.

[I8asquirrel]

I agree with synthetic, I think the best gun to carry is the one your likley to carry (my 57 is light and comfortable to carry all day) It shoots accurately enough that I can shoot a bG in the melon. as for people saying its an overrated .22 Ok fine. I have a 22lr I shoot with a can and 37gr remington subsonics that has cleanly killed many deer on a local farm (legal deprivation permit) I feel the low recoil of the 5.7 lets me get a faster more accurate second , third,or fourth round on target.......If you have confidence in the reliability of the gun and your abilty to put round accuratley on target "piss on what other people think of the round,Carrywhat you like"

[blueorison]

Synthetic: Let me introduce to you the power of enlightenment. At the end of this post, if you don't start scratching your head from wondering why you even had trouble responding to your naysayers, I will submit my privileges to scoff at them for their ignorance.

The 5.7 is anemic, weak, etc.

This argument, of course, has surfaced a treacherous amount of times on this forum. Senior forum members and Admins have had to clarify, reclarify, ban uninformed people that have never shot or tested the actual rounds used for SD (EA's ammunition) for posting libel and fallacious data. Many of these monkeys, I suspect, were jealous airsofters from barf.com.

You SHOULD know by now that the percentage of firearm owners who have a FsN is somewhat rare, and most don't know even the most BASIC FACTS about the FsN. We ALL get crap from idiots who don't know anything about it. I just smile at them and don't bother arguing. You can argue with ignorants till the end of dawn, it will inevitably just waste your time. I don't need to go over the basic misconceptions, most posters have and will (read: above posts). What I want to speak on is the simplistic nature of misconception.

The lacking of knowledge and intellect on your forum is relying on the artifact of Expert phenomena. This is the philosophy that our society always accepts anything someone labeled an "expert" says. If you take one second to stop and ponder this fact, you will realize how incredibly hilarious and dangerous this practice is. They rely on Doc Roberts for their data, when NEVER actually gathering empirical data (read: EA's written tests and video posts). This is the same phenomena that appears when patients blindly obey Doctors (experts) and take whatever pills they are prescribed without ANY research on what they are putting into their body (when was the last time you questioned your doctor's advice? Think about this. How many times have doctors/experts disagreed with each other? If they are always right, why do they disagree?)

To these uninformed people who have no first-hand experience with the FsN, it is something called a Black-box to them. A Black-box exists as something that is Unknowable. Simply put, they do not have self-test data as they do not own the pistol. It serves as an anomaly in their thought equation, and instead of using logic to bridge their arguments, they accept the entire domain of the FsN has an aberrant Black-box. The fact is they have no other choice to buy into the Black-box phenomenon if they follow the route of assuming they know what they are talking about, as they have no empirical data.

Let me make it VERY simple (I'm not implying you lack intelligence or anything, please don't mistake my intention ). Let's say we agree with the dumdums that the 5.7 IS a .22 mag round. Now... this doesn't take much thought but... do YOU think someone hit by 18 rounds of .22 mag will still be standing? Now realize the 5.7 is much more powerful. Are you following me yet, or is your jaw on the ground from shock that you even considered this claim?

Notice... how hilarious now the logic seems...? This political phenomenon is known as an Artifact. We take something someone tells us and accepts it as fact although in reality, if we use our brains, it really makes NO sense.

This is a friendly Blueorison PSA to remind all of you out there, to please, use your noggins.

(I'm not directing that comment to you, Synthetic just your "compatriots")

[rocketsurgery]

"It is all basic physics and physiology. Look at the surface areas in contact with tissue for 9 mm FMJ and JHP compared to 5.7 mm. When both are point forward, the 9 mm FMJ crushes more tissue than the 5.7 mm; for the short time that the 5.7 mm is at FULL yaw, it crushes a bit more tissue than the 9 mm FMJ. At no time does the 5.7 mm crush more tissue than the expanded 9 mm JHP--even when the 5.7 mm FMJ is at full yaw, an expanded 9 mm JHP crushes more tissue. "

Since the 5.7x28 caliber bullet's center of gravity is where it is, it would actually stay at full yaw most of the time it was traveling through a medium with appreciable resistance.

[tdevince]

I actually went to a shop to purchase a 5-7. The gentleman who was to sell me it told me when he tested the gun, the bullets wouldn't knock over the steel plate targets he has at his range, when he test fired it...

Actually, the 5.7x28 is not a good round if your goal is to knock over steel plates. What it takes to move the plate is momentum, which is merely the product of mass and velocity. While the 5.7 has velocity, its mass is significantly lower than a 9mm or 45 acp which will knock over steel plates all day long. However, when it comes to wounding and penetration, energy is more important, which is proportional to velocity squared. Ryker posted this reference http://history.amedd.army.mil/booksdocs ... apter2.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; which is a very interesting read about ballistic tests into animals, gel and water. Their results favor higher velocity rounds and touts energy over momentum for wounding.

Another interesting thing is that the 5.7 will tend to deposit all its energy into a soft target, no energy is carried away through the back of the target. Any energy carried away is energy that cannot produce wounding.

In summary:
steel plates - momentum-think high weight bullets
wounding - energy - think fast bullets.

[panzermk2]

If it as all about frontal surface area then how come 120mm M1A2 main guns shot an armor defeating round that is 20mm in diameter and sabot-ed up to 120mm

How come this needle destroys enemy armor 2 miles away?

[rocketsurgery]

In summary:
steel plates - momentum-think high weight bullets
wounding - energy - think fast bullets.

Good to know, thanks. :guns:

[fatherfoof]

Blue-- I don't know where you find such patience. Have you ever had less than an A on a term paper?

[Wolfpuppies3]

The argument (unwinnable by anyone) over which caliber is the best man stopper goes back to Colonel Hatcher and before. The 5.7x28 is no more a .22 mag than is a 5.56x45 (.223). In any event, you may ask Tim McCarthy or Thomas Delahanty (too late to ask President Reagan) whether or not a .22 long rifle can stop a large, strong, healthy man. You know the answer to that one. A well placed .17 wmr is far more effective that a .44 magnum round in the wrong place.

The moral of the story is go to the range often, and know precisely how your carry weapon handles. Carry whatever weapon you may comfortably carry. Given clothing and weather limitations, that choice may change periodically. My preference is .45 ACP but I also own .22, 5.7x28, .380, 9mm, .357, .357 Sig, .38+P, .40., and.44 magnum. My Ruger LCP fits in jeans pockets and works because it is there. My LCR weighs next to nothing, is only slightly larger, and is in a more effective caliber than .380. Any of the above is far better than the knife many of us carry.

[MrSlippyFist]

Synthetic: Let me introduce to you the power of enlightenment. At the end of this post, if you don't start scratching your head from wondering why you even had trouble responding to your naysayers, I will submit my privileges to scoff at them for their ignorance.

The 5.7 is anemic, weak, etc.

This argument, of course, has surfaced a treacherous amount of times on this forum. Senior forum members and Admins have had to clarify, reclarify, ban uninformed people that have never shot or tested the actual rounds used for SD (EA's ammunition) for posting libel and fallacious data. Many of these monkeys, I suspect, were jealous airsofters from barf.com.

You SHOULD know by now that the percentage of firearm owners who have a FsN is somewhat rare, and most don't know even the most BASIC FACTS about the FsN. We ALL get crap from idiots who don't know anything about it. I just smile at them and don't bother arguing. You can argue with ignorants till the end of dawn, it will inevitably just waste your time. I don't need to go over the basic misconceptions, most posters have and will (read: above posts). What I want to speak on is the simplistic nature of misconception.

The lacking of knowledge and intellect on your forum is relying on the artifact of Expert phenomena. This is the philosophy that our society always accepts anything someone labeled an "expert" says. If you take one second to stop and ponder this fact, you will realize how incredibly hilarious and dangerous this practice is. They rely on Doc Roberts for their data, when NEVER actually gathering empirical data (read: EA's written tests and video posts). This is the same phenomena that appears when patients blindly obey Doctors (experts) and take whatever pills they are prescribed without ANY research on what they are putting into their body (when was the last time you questioned your doctor's advice? Think about this. How many times have doctors/experts disagreed with each other? If they are always right, why do they disagree?)

To these uninformed people who have no first-hand experience with the FsN, it is something called a Black-box to them. A Black-box exists as something that is Unknowable. Simply put, they do not have self-test data as they do not own the pistol. It serves as an anomaly in their thought equation, and instead of using logic to bridge their arguments, they accept the entire domain of the FsN has an aberrant Black-box. The fact is they have no other choice to buy into the Black-box phenomenon if they follow the route of assuming they know what they are talking about, as they have no empirical data.

Let me make it VERY simple (I'm not implying you lack intelligence or anything, please don't mistake my intention ). Let's say we agree with the dumdums that the 5.7 IS a .22 mag round. Now... this doesn't take much thought but... do YOU think someone hit by 18 rounds of .22 mag will still be standing? Now realize the 5.7 is much more powerful. Are you following me yet, or is your jaw on the ground from shock that you even considered this claim?

Notice... how hilarious now the logic seems...? This political phenomenon is known as an Artifact. We take something someone tells us and accepts it as fact although in reality, if we use our brains, it really makes NO sense.

This is a friendly Blueorison PSA to remind all of you out there, to please, use your noggins.

(I'm not directing that comment to you, Synthetic just your "compatriots")

[Synthetic]

blueorison, I take no offense at all to what you have stated. I think you stated it very well.

As to the United States Concealed Carry Association site and its members. There are many thousands of members but only a small few made the observations concerning the Five-seveN as a below average CC carry gun. I think at least one of the problems some have is this. They take a small amount of information and run with it. Then they try to prove their information correct for some reason I don't know.

As for myself, I do not doubt the effectiveness of the 5.7 or I would not have even considered it for my concealed carry gun. I fired it for the first time today at a local indoor range. I will post a picture of the target I used for the first 10 shots out of it at 25 feet. I don't think any human being could have survived the pattern in the correct area. Of course I never want to find out its potential on another human being but if I had to stop the threat against my life I can't imagine the 5.7 would not do that. Even though I do not have much experience with the gun yet....trust me....I will soon. I will be going often to the range until the Five-seveN becomes very well known to me.

I for one would never want to be on the receiving end of this gun!

Thank you for taking the time to express your thoughts to me that indeed made very good sense...

[maverick23jhp]

Synthetic: Let me introduce to you the power of enlightenment. At the end of this post, if you don't start scratching your head from wondering why you even had trouble responding to your naysayers, I will submit my privileges to scoff at them for their ignorance.

The 5.7 is anemic, weak, etc.

This argument, of course, has surfaced a treacherous amount of times on this forum. Senior forum members and Admins have had to clarify, reclarify, ban uninformed people that have never shot or tested the actual rounds used for SD (EA's ammunition) for posting libel and fallacious data. Many of these monkeys, I suspect, were jealous airsofters from barf.com.

You SHOULD know by now that the percentage of firearm owners who have a FsN is somewhat rare, and most don't know even the most BASIC FACTS about the FsN. We ALL get crap from idiots who don't know anything about it. I just smile at them and don't bother arguing. You can argue with ignorants till the end of dawn, it will inevitably just waste your time. I don't need to go over the basic misconceptions, most posters have and will (read: above posts). What I want to speak on is the simplistic nature of misconception.

The lacking of knowledge and intellect on your forum is relying on the artifact of Expert phenomena. This is the philosophy that our society always accepts anything someone labeled an "expert" says. If you take one second to stop and ponder this fact, you will realize how incredibly hilarious and dangerous this practice is. They rely on Doc Roberts for their data, when NEVER actually gathering empirical data (read: EA's written tests and video posts). This is the same phenomena that appears when patients blindly obey Doctors (experts) and take whatever pills they are prescribed without ANY research on what they are putting into their body (when was the last time you questioned your doctor's advice? Think about this. How many times have doctors/experts disagreed with each other? If they are always right, why do they disagree?)

To these uninformed people who have no first-hand experience with the FsN, it is something called a Black-box to them. A Black-box exists as something that is Unknowable. Simply put, they do not have self-test data as they do not own the pistol. It serves as an anomaly in their thought equation, and instead of using logic to bridge their arguments, they accept the entire domain of the FsN has an aberrant Black-box. The fact is they have no other choice to buy into the Black-box phenomenon if they follow the route of assuming they know what they are talking about, as they have no empirical data.

Let me make it VERY simple (I'm not implying you lack intelligence or anything, please don't mistake my intention ). Let's say we agree with the dumdums that the 5.7 IS a .22 mag round. Now... this doesn't take much thought but... do YOU think someone hit by 18 rounds of .22 mag will still be standing? Now realize the 5.7 is much more powerful. Are you following me yet, or is your jaw on the ground from shock that you even considered this claim?

Notice... how hilarious now the logic seems...? This political phenomenon is known as an Artifact. We take something someone tells us and accepts it as fact although in reality, if we use our brains, it really makes NO sense.

This is a friendly Blueorison PSA to remind all of you out there, to please, use your noggins.

(I'm not directing that comment to you, Synthetic just your "compatriots")

Dang It Blue, Now my head hurts! :wall: :lmao:

[maxvalue]

For all that think the 5.7 is an insufficient round for self defense, email me I'll give you my address and come let me shoot you with it and then give me your opinion. Most fatal shots fired in this country are fired from a .22.

[Synthetic]

For all that think the 5.7 is an insufficient round for self defense, email me I'll give you my address and come let me shoot you with it and then give me your opinion. Most fatal shots fired in this country are fired from a .22.

I ain't coming there! hehehehehe

[AN_OLD_LADY]

This is the "crack-head" that absorbed ammunition like a sponge. .40's and .223's. The link at the bottom of the post is a perfect example of the fallacy of heavy bullets. Nothing is a one shot stop, and I'd rather have 20 bangs than 7.

THIS IS VERY GRAPHIC
There are morgue photos and x-rays. It is not for the faint of heart.
ONCE AGAIN I STRESS IT IS VERY GRAPHIC
don't follow the link unless you have a strong stomach.

http://www.defensivecarry.com/documents/officer.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I carry the FsN daily. It is a little big, but easily concealable. It is very light, and it will kill a human being. Just like a .380 acp will kill, just like a .22 LR will kill, just like a .45, just like a .50 AE. A hole is a hole. Shot placement is most important, and the FsN makes that very easy.

I actually got the link from a debate on another forum about the FsN. (i'm vinny701 btw)
This conversation describes perfectly what happens when people hear about the 5.7 and ccw.

http://concealedcarryforum.com/forum/to ... hTerms=5.7" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Buffman]

Synthetic: Let me introduce to you the power of enlightenment. At the end of this post, if you don't start scratching your head from wondering why you even had trouble responding to your naysayers, I will submit my privileges to scoff at them for their ignorance.

The 5.7 is anemic, weak, etc.

This argument, of course, has surfaced a treacherous amount of times on this forum. Senior forum members and Admins have had to clarify, reclarify, ban uninformed people that have never shot or tested the actual rounds used for SD (EA's ammunition) for posting libel and fallacious data. Many of these monkeys, I suspect, were jealous airsofters from barf.com.

You SHOULD know by now that the percentage of firearm owners who have a FsN is somewhat rare, and most don't know even the most BASIC FACTS about the FsN. We ALL get crap from idiots who don't know anything about it. I just smile at them and don't bother arguing. You can argue with ignorants till the end of dawn, it will inevitably just waste your time. I don't need to go over the basic misconceptions, most posters have and will (read: above posts). What I want to speak on is the simplistic nature of misconception.

The lacking of knowledge and intellect on your forum is relying on the artifact of Expert phenomena. This is the philosophy that our society always accepts anything someone labeled an "expert" says. If you take one second to stop and ponder this fact, you will realize how incredibly hilarious and dangerous this practice is. They rely on Doc Roberts for their data, when NEVER actually gathering empirical data (read: EA's written tests and video posts). This is the same phenomena that appears when patients blindly obey Doctors (experts) and take whatever pills they are prescribed without ANY research on what they are putting into their body (when was the last time you questioned your doctor's advice? Think about this. How many times have doctors/experts disagreed with each other? If they are always right, why do they disagree?)

To these uninformed people who have no first-hand experience with the FsN, it is something called a Black-box to them. A Black-box exists as something that is Unknowable. Simply put, they do not have self-test data as they do not own the pistol. It serves as an anomaly in their thought equation, and instead of using logic to bridge their arguments, they accept the entire domain of the FsN has an aberrant Black-box. The fact is they have no other choice to buy into the Black-box phenomenon if they follow the route of assuming they know what they are talking about, as they have no empirical data.

Let me make it VERY simple (I'm not implying you lack intelligence or anything, please don't mistake my intention ). Let's say we agree with the dumdums that the 5.7 IS a .22 mag round. Now... this doesn't take much thought but... do YOU think someone hit by 18 rounds of .22 mag will still be standing? Now realize the 5.7 is much more powerful. Are you following me yet, or is your jaw on the ground from shock that you even considered this claim?

Notice... how hilarious now the logic seems...? This political phenomenon is known as an Artifact. We take something someone tells us and accepts it as fact although in reality, if we use our brains, it really makes NO sense.

This is a friendly Blueorison PSA to remind all of you out there, to please, use your noggins.

(I'm not directing that comment to you, Synthetic just your "compatriots")

And Knowing is half the battle....



GI JOE!

[Synthetic]

AN_OLD_LADY,
Lot's of good information in that. Thanks for posting it...

[tmobileguy]

For all that think the 5.7 is an insufficient round for self defense, email me I'll give you my address and come let me shoot you with it and then give me your opinion. Most fatal shots fired in this country are fired from a .22.

Though i think that the 5.7 is more then sufficient, I would still like to take you up on your offer. PM me your address or I can give you mine and will see how well the 5.7 doesn't against me....or we can meet at another location. Give me about a month's notice so that I can inform family members, friends, etc. and get some affairs into order. Just thought I would put that out there seeing how I know you would understand and relate to making 'stupid 1st posts'..

[PeterGunn]

If the 5.7 is so bad, how come it's banned at so many ranges because it causes so much damage to the steel backstops ??

[Bones]

The main reason it is not allowed has to do with misinformed ROs thinking that the only rounds for this firearm are AP rounds which is 99% of the time not the case. As most people think the big bad "Banned" (BS) ss192 round is AP. That is not correct at all. I think this was just touched on..


Knowledge is POWER!!!!! :thumb: