New Custom Slide Cover (Plastic with front slide serrations)

s-industries · Post by **s-industries** » 05 Nov 2012, 20:46

Have the first prototype done. Basically this gives you front slide serrations and a way to mount your red dot without removing the rear sight (hopefully...haven't been able to test that aspect yet). I'm working on getting the finish right. It's currently a bit different from the frame.

Don't hate on the name. I felt the need to put something on the side...

Post by **Rapier1772** » 05 Nov 2012, 21:03

That looks kinda cool.
I remember a while back there was a guy was looking for something to grip when locking opening his slide, I think this would probably do it.

Nice

Post by **blueorison** » 05 Nov 2012, 21:35

Dude, I'm not even going to cloak it; that is FREAKIN awesome.

Make the serrations at a slight angle, like 100 degrees, and it will be perfect, to me.

I can't tell you how invaluable front serrations are for me, as I use an MRD on my FsN and reaching below the MRD to rack the gun from the rear is not as efficient as using the front of the slide to rack the slide.

I have tried griptape on the slide, at the front, but this does not work as it rips up the holster and slows down the draw.

Sending you a PM.

PainKillaX · Post by **PainKillaX** » 05 Nov 2012, 22:44

WOW! Super impressed. Going to be selling these one day?

pods22 · Post by **pods22** » 05 Nov 2012, 23:11

I think it looks great! Matching the finish would make it near perfect. Can't wait to see the final product.

JoJo · Post by **JoJo** » 06 Nov 2012, 08:29

Impressive! What material do you anticipate using?

CDeel · Post by **CDeel** » 06 Nov 2012, 08:57

I want one.

truehuntersupply · Post by **truehuntersupply** » 06 Nov 2012, 09:10

wow!!!

Post by **panzermk2** » 06 Nov 2012, 13:54

Very nice.

s-industries · Post by **s-industries** » 06 Nov 2012, 16:52

Blue: Thank you, and PM also sent. I'm with you on front slide serrations...absolutely necessary.

To answer the other questions:
Yes, I definitely hope to have these for sale soon. I still need to do a lot of testing, but I wanted to get this out there to see how much interest there might be.
This is plastic, and if I can ever get costs down I'd like to offer an aluminum version.

Thanks for the interest!

Buffman · Post by **Buffman** » 06 Nov 2012, 17:04

I like it

CDeel · Post by **CDeel** » 06 Nov 2012, 17:58

I have no idea what's involved in making something like that, but would it be possible to put whatever the person wants instead of eden engineering?

srt-4_jon · Post by **srt-4_jon** » 06 Nov 2012, 18:26

I don't know how the OP does it but I would think it is pretty easy with a 3d printer.

Post by **MrSlippyFist** » 06 Nov 2012, 18:29

Very nice. I like it. Can I get a pic of this in profile and section next to a OEM cover? I'm interested to see how compares dimensionally. Thanks for your hard work.

Buffman · Post by **Buffman** » 06 Nov 2012, 19:05

The front seems like it needs to be a little more square to match the serrations.

s-industries · Post by **s-industries** » 06 Nov 2012, 20:47

You can have whatever you want on the side...for the right amount of money!

I'll try to get some pics up comparing this to the OE cover. It is thicker in front, as there is no step.

Buffman, not sure I quite understand what you mean about the front needing to be more square. Can you explain?

Buffman · Post by **Buffman** » 06 Nov 2012, 20:52

The end of the cover at least from this angle to me would look better if it matches angle of the serrations:

or if instead of being rounded like it is would be more square and blocky.

Buffman · Post by **Buffman** » 06 Nov 2012, 20:58

Kind of hard to describe:

I think with the serrations, making the FSN top cover more blocky as I tried to show may make it look better.

Post by **panzermk2** » 06 Nov 2012, 21:09

While not a fan of forward serrations I like this cover so much more with out the factory step down.

Post by **panzermk2** » 06 Nov 2012, 21:11

You know your missing the hole to drift the factory sight? Would be a good idea to beef up on the inside the bore for the loaded chamber indicator.

Post by **Rapier1772** » 06 Nov 2012, 21:40

Buffman wrote:Kind of hard to describe:

I think with the serrations, making the FSN top cover more blocky as I tried to show may make it look better.

You want to turn a FsN into a ~~block~~ glock? Begone foul creature!!!

Buffman · Post by **Buffman** » 06 Nov 2012, 22:03

not quite. Keep the step down that he's created around the front site. I'd like to see what it'd look like

Post by **blueorison** » 06 Nov 2012, 22:24

I don't think it's more blocky... it just needs to match the almost 100 degree slant of the serrations.

s-industries · Post by **s-industries** » 07 Nov 2012, 05:32

I might be able to sharpen that up a little, make it more 'square' without risking the Block look. Although I don't think I'll angle the front to match the serrations, if that's what is intended. We'll see, I personally like it how it is, but you probably knew that.

This one doesn't have the hole because I don't need it for my gun. It's easy to add. The loaded chamber indicator accommodations are fine, or possibly even too beefy at this point. Trust me on that.

fd57 · Post by **fd57** » 07 Nov 2012, 06:46

Definitely like the slide cover you've developed as is thus far. Always better to see in person

You could probably have two runs, one with the forward serrations and one without, just smooth to the end without the step down. IE, no serrations and no step down. Would certainly look smoother

JoJo · Post by **JoJo** » 07 Nov 2012, 07:41

Rapier1772 wrote:
Buffman wrote:Kind of hard to describe:

I think with the serrations, making the FSN top cover more blocky as I tried to show may make it look better.
You want to turn a FsN into a ~~block~~ glock? Begone foul creature!!!

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

Website · Post by **jgreenberg01** » 07 Nov 2012, 08:38

CDeel wrote:I have no idea what's involved in making something like that, but would it be possible to put whatever the person wants instead of eden engineering?

That's a good question. I think one of our members specifically asked for his to be modified like this:

Seriously though dude... you do some fantastic work!

Post by **blueorison** » 07 Nov 2012, 08:53

Not gonna lie, that looks pretty cool, Jeff.

Laser etching is one thing (because many can't even cut really deep and just puts a surface etch on), but molded cuts is another.

However, with the slide cover being plastic, it really opens it up for customization; even with laser etching that can't cut into a steel slide; it should be able to etch plastic.

MikeSantor · Post by **MikeSantor** » 07 Nov 2012, 09:56

panzermk2 wrote:While not a fan of forward serrations I like this cover so much more with out the factory step down.

This

...Times 1000.

I hate the stock step down. Only part of the fiveseven I don't like cosmetically.

Mister Freeze · Post by **Mister Freeze** » 07 Nov 2012, 12:08

Buffman wrote:Kind of hard to describe:

I think with the serrations, making the FSN top cover more blocky as I tried to show may make it look better.

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=13643" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Buffman · Post by **Buffman** » 07 Nov 2012, 16:20

s-industries do you have full production capabilites for these, or are you looking for a shop? I recently discovered one of my good friends works for a local plastic mold/ fabrication shop

s-industries · Post by **s-industries** » 08 Nov 2012, 15:38

I think the Tactical Zombie Killer is now going to be an option! :laugh:
...seriously, maybe.

Buffman, thanks for the info. I do think I have a supplier nailed down for this though.

Below are some photos to get an idea on the profile compared to the OE part. The finish color is off a bit, but not as bad as appears in some of these. The texture is not smooth, as is quite noticeable. These are both items I am addressing, so use these photos more for dimensional comparison rather than finish comparison. The texture actually feels really nice though.

PainKillaX · Post by **PainKillaX** » 08 Nov 2012, 16:42

Oh yeah. I like this waaaay more. Loaded chamber indicator still function?

MikeSantor · Post by **MikeSantor** » 08 Nov 2012, 18:14

sick nasty.

s-industries · Post by **s-industries** » 08 Nov 2012, 19:03

Thanks Pain. The loaded chamber indicator will still function. This cover is a smidge off, but that's what prototypes are for right?

Mike...thanks? :ponder:

truehuntersupply · Post by **truehuntersupply** » 08 Nov 2012, 22:51

PM sent

Post by **panzermk2** » 08 Nov 2012, 23:23

s-industries wrote:Thanks Pain. The loaded chamber indicator will still function. This cover is a smidge off, but that's what prototypes are for right?

Mike...thanks? :ponder:

Yeah everyone thinks prototyping is so easy. And cheap.

truehuntersupply · Post by **truehuntersupply** » 09 Nov 2012, 10:28

Super expensive and not fun, especially if it does not sell.

fooschnickens · Post by **fooschnickens** » 09 Nov 2012, 11:08

I also like that it removes the two "wings" on the rear of the oem slide cover.

Interested to see how red dots mount to it.

Website · Post by **jgreenberg01** » 09 Nov 2012, 11:26

truehuntersupply wrote:Super expensive and not fun, especially if it does not sell.

"Ah... It's a profit deal. Takes the pressure off."

Extra points if you know the movie (no cheating)...

Post by **Cyberfly** » 09 Nov 2012, 11:52

I like the texture and color. The pics make it look like a blued metal to me.
And I like 'Blues Tactical Zombie Killer'. A DEFINITE seller there!!

"Blue Approved"
-Professional Zombie Slayer

fooschnickens · Post by **fooschnickens** » 09 Nov 2012, 11:55

I know it's a Steve Martin movie but can't remember the name. Dirty rotten Scoundrels?

Website · Post by **jgreenberg01** » 09 Nov 2012, 12:10

fooschnickens wrote:I know it's a Steve Martin movie but can't remember the name. Dirty rotten Scoundrels?

Close but no cigar...

fd57 · Post by **fd57** » 09 Nov 2012, 13:12

THE JERK.

Website · Post by **jgreenberg01** » 09 Nov 2012, 13:14

fd57 wrote:THE JERK.

Ding ding ding... we have a winner!

Post by **Esteves** » 09 Nov 2012, 13:47

fooschnickens wrote:Interested to see how red dots mount to it.

+1
...and fit to existing holsters.

fooschnickens · Post by **fooschnickens** » 09 Nov 2012, 13:56

Oh, good point, I didn't think of that. Now that my MTAC is fully broken in, too...

s-industries · Post by **s-industries** » 10 Nov 2012, 07:34

Sorry guys, if your current holster steps down to fit the shape of the slide cover, it will no longer work. I made a kydex holster and bolted it to the paddle from my serpa. If I can get something I'm happy with, those will also be available.

The red dot mounts via the two holes in front of the rear sight. I've been evaluating this and I think my approach is going to change a bit, but the idea is the same. That's the part I'm a little concerned with...don't want red dots flying off all over the place. If that turns out to be a no-go, we'll remove the holes and you can mount your red dots like you do now.

Not sure what happened to my images. I'll check into that.

Post by **panzermk2** » 10 Nov 2012, 09:15

s-industries wrote:Sorry guys, if your current holster steps down to fit the shape of the slide cover, it will no longer work. I made a kydex holster and bolted it to the paddle from my serpa. If I can get something I'm happy with, those will also be available.

The red dot mounts via the two holes in front of the rear sight. I've been evaluating this and I think my approach is going to change a bit, but the idea is the same. That's the part I'm a little concerned with...don't want red dots flying off all over the place. If that turns out to be a no-go, we'll remove the holes and you can mount your red dots like you do now.

Not sure what happened to my images. I'll check into that.

If you want it tested I can do it. I will video tape and analyze just like I did for the customer who wanted to see if the Aim Point micro would work. Does not have to be public. I would be very concerned also. Is there a metal strip molded into the cover for strength?

If you want to talk more about it PM me.

MikeSantor · Post by **MikeSantor** » 10 Nov 2012, 09:18

If the only major change in the slide is the step down, it is no problem to fix the kydex.

Bowl of ice water and a few rags. After soaking the rags put it all around the holster where you DONT want the kydex to be reformed. Leave just the stepped area uncovered. Then heat gun or blow dryer to heat just the uncovered, stepped area. After the kydex gets pliable slide your new slide/fiveseven in the holster.

Post by **jmz5** » 13 Nov 2012, 04:58

Looks Sweet!

Crawfish80 · Post by **Crawfish80** » 14 Nov 2012, 00:12

:agree:

Oh I want one once you get it all worked out!

Please keep us all updated!!!

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Onejzsupra · Post by **Onejzsupra** » 18 Nov 2012, 12:17

Photos of the red dot mount?

Valorius · Post by **Valorius** » 19 Nov 2012, 08:16

Are these available for sale yet, and how much?

I want one. HUGE upgrade on the looks of the stock slide cover.

Onejzsupra · Post by **Onejzsupra** » 19 Nov 2012, 16:28

Valorius wrote:Are these available for sale yet, and how much?

I want one. HUGE upgrade on the looks of the stock slide cover.

i wouldnt say huge, I mean the 57 looks pretty good to me.

Rouge701 · Post by **Rouge701** » 21 Nov 2012, 09:53

I'll take one

s-industries · Post by **s-industries** » 21 Nov 2012, 16:32

I have most of the modifications done to the drawing and hope to have prototype #2 done by Christmas. I don't have photos of the red dot mount because I haven't had one manufactured yet. I'm still working on the insert design so there's definitely still some work to do.

I've gotten a few messages concerning price so I want to comment to avoid folks getting their hopes up thinking this will be on the same level as the OE part. Please remember that this is a low volume custom part, so I have zero leverage on pricing. I think it'll come in at around $100 (not including a red dot mount), so I hope this doesn't price it out of the market. I apologize for any pain caused by jaws hitting the floor, but it is what it is.

Post by **Rapier1772** » 21 Nov 2012, 16:46

That was less than I was expecting :ponder:

Onejzsupra · Post by **Onejzsupra** » 21 Nov 2012, 19:44

well considering FN can make these like hot cakes and you're one man it is to be expected... I only have one request....

IF it all possible would you be able to design it so that the red dot mounts like the FNP .45 tactical? I know that might be asking a bit much and i'm pretty sure it isn't able to be done but it's a quick question haha.

Valorius · Post by **Valorius** » 22 Nov 2012, 05:43

While i LOVE the look of the new slide cover, there is literally no way in hell i would ever pay $100 for one. Half of that...maybe.

My interest in this product went from extremely high, to none, due to pricing concerns.

IMO the market for this product at that price point is extremely limited.

fooschnickens · Post by **fooschnickens** » 22 Nov 2012, 07:44

Valorius wrote:While i LOVE the look of the new slide cover, there is literally no way in hell i would ever pay $100 for one. Half of that...maybe.

My interest in this product went from extremely high, to none, due to pricing concerns.

IMO the market for this product at that price point is extremely limited.

I bet you passed up the 25 cent gumball machines for the 5 cent ones whenever you could.

Honestly I could make a wall of text telling you just how idiotic your posts make you look but I know it's wasted effort since you'd either never look at it or completely miss the point of it.

Valorius · Post by **Valorius** » 22 Nov 2012, 08:25

If it makes you feel any better, i literally do not care in the slightest bit what your opinion is of me. I do know this, on the two forums where there are "rep point" systems that i post at, i am ranked #1 on one of them, and in the top 5 on the other...and they're both much higher traffic sites than this one.

Pa2a.org
PAFOA.org

Same user name as here on both.

Furthermore, i cannot recall not even one single post you have ever made in any way whatsoever. At least my posts are memorable to you...

The man is making a product. I am a potential customer. In fact, i am a highly enthusiastic potential customer, I am giving him FREE market feed back. At that price point, even though i'm highly interested: I would not buy the product. I then listed the price point where i WOULD by the product.

This is highly useful info to any business person.

WTF is your problem?

As far as my contributions to this site and community: I posted videos of several loads against IIIA vests that confirm all of Buffman's tests, and i tested some combos he didn't test. I also tested numerous 5.7mm rounds vs hard fiberglass plate armor and posted the results. I also posted the working fix for the 30rd mags that is 100% reliable.

I am the one that put up the video that shows SS195LF can defeat a 25 layer IIIA vest with ballistic stab protection. Prior to my video, everyone reported based on zero video evidence that IIIA will stop SS195....it won't. SS195 actually appears to have slightly superior velocity performance as SS192 based on actual user chrono data, which also defeats IIIA.

I also posted the first official WRITTEN response from FNH ammo division wrt the shelf life of their SS195 and SS198 LF ammo, just today.

So yeah, have a nice day.

Post by **Rapier1772** » 22 Nov 2012, 09:41

Valorius is allowed to have and state his opinion as is everyone else, provided there are no personal attacks.
I disagree with Val's opinion as well but there is no need for insults.

Keep the thread on topic and civil.

MikeSantor · Post by **MikeSantor** » 22 Nov 2012, 13:26

Do I want to pay $100 for one? No.

Will/Am I? Yes.

I like it that much...

Crawfish80 · Post by **Crawfish80** » 22 Nov 2012, 17:27

Agree that $100.00 seems fair market price for this.

Sign me up for one with the Zombie Bio Warning!

:thumb:

Onejzsupra · Post by **Onejzsupra** » 22 Nov 2012, 17:51

Like I said before.... He is one man providing a product that no one else on the market makes, while FN can make a bunch he may not have the time, resources or over head to produce these like a large company would..... $100 pays for all of that (required materials, tools, time, man power, shipping, time, man power and did I say time?).

I do agree with Rapier, if that's how he feels about the product that's up to him. no reason to get crazy because he doesn't want to be one of the cool kids and buy one when it comes out = P

s-industries · Post by **s-industries** » 22 Nov 2012, 19:28

Well, I appreciate the feedback. I don't mind losing a customer if that person feels the product value is less than what it costs me to produce it.

There's a good way to say things and a bad way to say things (obviously). Val, I think you tend to gravitate towards the latter (IMO), which is why folks get a tad snippy with you. If I somehow get this custom product down to OE pricing, I'll definitely let you know. Thanks for the initial interest.

Post by **Cyberfly** » 22 Nov 2012, 21:53

Some people have a way with words.
Some people's words are smooth like liquid silk. Other people's words are smooth like 50 grit sandpaper that rips the flesh and leaves bloody scratches that fester and get infected.
I can think of at least two people on this site who could be used to strip paint on a regular basis...
But, if I still had my FsN, I would jump on one of these covers. I love the design, the look, the color...just about everything about it. I wish I had the resources to have tried it myself.

Post by **panzermk2** » 23 Nov 2012, 13:40

s-industries wrote:I have most of the modifications done to the drawing and hope to have prototype #2 done by Christmas. I don't have photos of the red dot mount because I haven't had one manufactured yet. I'm still working on the insert design so there's definitely still some work to do.

I've gotten a few messages concerning price so I want to comment to avoid folks getting their hopes up thinking this will be on the same level as the OE part. Please remember that this is a low volume custom part, so I have zero leverage on pricing. I think it'll come in at around $100 (not including a red dot mount), so I hope this doesn't price it out of the market. I apologize for any pain caused by jaws hitting the floor, but it is what it is.

I still have people giving me a hard time that compared to white box winchester 9mm our ammo is over priced.

Post by **blueorison** » 23 Nov 2012, 14:08

panzermk2 wrote:
s-industries wrote:I have most of the modifications done to the drawing and hope to have prototype #2 done by Christmas. I don't have photos of the red dot mount because I haven't had one manufactured yet. I'm still working on the insert design so there's definitely still some work to do.

I've gotten a few messages concerning price so I want to comment to avoid folks getting their hopes up thinking this will be on the same level as the OE part. Please remember that this is a low volume custom part, so I have zero leverage on pricing. I think it'll come in at around $100 (not including a red dot mount), so I hope this doesn't price it out of the market. I apologize for any pain caused by jaws hitting the floor, but it is what it is.

I still have people giving me a hard time that compared to white box winchester 9mm our ammo is over priced.

Yeah, I mean, why AREN'T EA's prices the same as .22LR?! I can get .22LR at 18$ a box of FIVE HUNDRED ALL DAY.

:facepalm:

fd57 · Post by **fd57** » 23 Nov 2012, 14:41

Can you PM or share the quantity price? IE, what numbers do you need to order in order to set the price at X, Y or Z?

Perhaps you could get a pre-order system in place that would result in a higher initial order resulting in a lower acquisition cost?

Crawfish80 · Post by **Crawfish80** » 23 Nov 2012, 15:18

I was wondering about the aluminum or titanium prices my self...I know would cost a pretty penny! Just wondering though!

Although it could really affect the weapons performance, adding extra weight to the firearm...

Any thoughts on that people?

Or on that note, what if you got one of the extended barrels and had a slide that covered it?
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=13541" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Some one said that they now could get a 3" longer barrel...what would that do to the performance of the 5.7....

Just some ideas, crazy as they might be!

Post by **blueorison** » 23 Nov 2012, 16:01

Crawfish80 wrote:I was wondering about the aluminum or titanium prices my self...I know would cost a pretty penny! Just wondering though!

Although it could really affect the weapons performance, adding extra weight to the firearm...

Any thoughts on that people?

Or on that note, what if you got one of the extended barrels and had a slide that covered it?
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=13541" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Some one said that they now could get a 3" longer barrel...what would that do to the performance of the 5.7....

Just some ideas, crazy as they might be!

1. One would not want to add weight to the slide. It's negative shootability, performance and reliability.
2. Quality longer barrels always = more velocity.

:cya:

s-industries · Post by **s-industries** » 23 Nov 2012, 16:03

Check EA's sub forum for info on the longer barrel. Truehuntersupply is checking into some different options as well. I already have a cover design modified to cover the longer barrels, but I'm sure it will be substantially more expensive.

I posted a drawing of the preliminary design for this a while back. I had that design quoted in aluminum but the cost was over $800....

Titanium would be too heavy, not to mention the cost. Aluminum with a red dot is borderline too heavy, based on input from various forum members (discussed in the thread I mentioned).

I don't think those are crazy ideas at all. That's why I've already looked into them

Crawfish80 · Post by **Crawfish80** » 23 Nov 2012, 21:32

Yes I just like to put stuff out there!

The 3 inch longer barrel with a custom plastic slide cover would definitely be something that I would like to see!

Might not be the best concealed weapon but it should make for some interesting stats at the range!

Although I am a big guy, I am sure that I could figure something out.

xman · Post by **xman** » 25 Nov 2012, 12:05

I might be interested as well.

Valorius · Post by **Valorius** » 27 Nov 2012, 13:12

Don't get me wrong...i love the product. However, i am not rich, and $100 is more than i can justify for what is, essentially, a piece of plastic.

Were the economy and work better, i would probably still buy one for $100, and definitely for $75. I'm just sayin', in this economic climate, i could not justify more than $50 for this product. And IMO, at $50 per, the OP would sell LOTS of these, making a cheaper price more feasible anyway.

Regardless: I think it looks COMPLETELY badass.

s-industries wrote:Well, I appreciate the feedback. I don't mind losing a customer if that person feels the product value is less than what it costs me to produce it.

There's a good way to say things and a bad way to say things (obviously). Val, I think you tend to gravitate towards the latter (IMO), which is why folks get a tad snippy with you. If I somehow get this custom product down to OE pricing, I'll definitely let you know. Thanks for the initial interest.

I am just bluntly honest. Nothing i say on here is ever intended to be delivered with malice or spite. Just cold hard black and white blunt honesty. Sometimes the blunt unfiltered truth (or a reasoned critique) can be taken as an insult when it is in no way intended as one. Some people even prefer the blunt truth to "diplomatic speak."

When a product is kick ass, IMO, i post it all over the web saying so. Just google the key words Valorius+Elite+S4M+5.7mm to see what i'm talking about. I worship at the altar of that sadly now discontinued Elite Ammo offering.

When one is over priced TO ME....same thing. Example: The slidefire stock. SUPER NEAT idea and product, but no freaking way i'd ever pay the retail price for one. At the retail price, it is in all honesty, a flat out rip off. I could only imagine the profit margin they're making on those things. Perhaps i'm just envious.

Note that i am not saying YOU are making an unfair profit or gouging, just that all things taken together, the product is TO ME, out of my realistic budget. TO ME, a realistic budget for this product is $50. Though i admit at $75 i'd be tortured, and probably buy one anyway.

So here's hoping it really catches on and the second batch comes in at $75 or less.

PS: I'm posting a link to your slide cover on the big five seven threads on both of the sites i post on.

fd57 · Post by **fd57** » 28 Nov 2012, 05:34

Agreed. $100 is steep compared to factory replacement at $7. So maybe a larger run can be made if interest is there so cost will go down.

Post by **Esteves** » 28 Nov 2012, 17:31

The funny thing about most manufacturing is that economies of scale don't usually kick in until thousands or even millions of units are on the table. Before hitting those thresholds, the r&d and setup costs are the biggest factors. Most consumers have no idea what effort goes into those aspects and have become accustomed to purchasing finished goods at price points that are not too far from the cost of the raw materials.

s-industries · Post by **s-industries** » 28 Nov 2012, 20:53

Yes, I would sell tons of these if they were $50, and I would lose money on each sale....good business?

Add up all the parts you can buy from MWG for your FsN and you'll get a real feeling for paying waaaay too much for something. The FsN (excluding the barrel and breech face) is a combination of the cheapest high volume manufacturing methods currently available (MIM, IM plastic, and stamped metal). FN understands value, which is why we all paid ~$1k for a gun composed of a few $5 parts (yes, this is a bit of an exaggeration, but not as bad as you might think).

I agree with those of you who think $100 is too much. If I could sell it for $50....I'd sell it for $75 and make good money. Unfortunately I don't have that luxury. I've checked my options, and could sell these for $7-$10 each if I thought it would justify the $8,000 injection molding tool. It's the same way with my adjustable trigger (coming soon, hopefully). If I could sit on a stock of 1,000 parts and the $5k MIM tool, I could sell them for around $30. Instead I'm stuck making low volume, machined-from-billet parts that are coming in at around $110 or so.

As for volume pricing. $100 is based on me ordering 10 covers at once. Seeing as how there's been about 3 people actually say something to the effect of 'I'll buy one,' that's a big risk.

I'm not trying to be spiteful here, or show any disrespect to those who don't like the expected price tag. Just explaining where the cost comes from and trying to elaborate a bit on what Esteves said about economics of scale.

srt-4_jon · Post by **srt-4_jon** » 28 Nov 2012, 21:19

Why not just find someone with a 3d printer? They are cheap in comparison. I know of quite a few locals that have them.

Onejzsupra · Post by **Onejzsupra** » 28 Nov 2012, 21:25

srt-4_jon wrote:Why not just find someone with a 3d printer? They are cheap in comparison. I know of quite a few locals that have them.

You have to be careful with those, a guy had a blog where he planned on make a gun with one. As soon as the company found out they cancelled his contract and sent people to take all of the equipment that day.

Valorius · Post by **Valorius** » 28 Nov 2012, 21:45

I'm sure one could buy a 3D printer outright that the manufacturer couldn't just take back.

srt-4_jon · Post by **srt-4_jon** » 29 Nov 2012, 02:09

He isn't printing a gun, he is printing a plastic sculpture. And I'm sure it would be cheap to get one printed
If you want, I can ask a local what all he would need to make it

s-industries · Post by **s-industries** » 29 Nov 2012, 05:38

The part you seen in the photos is a 3D printed part. It is the only way to get this type of project off the ground with no equipment/tooling costs. 3D printers are cheap in comparison to IM tools, but still expensive considering the project.

I could sell this a little cheaper (probably even hit that $75 mark) if I sold the same basic piece as the prototype. As you can see though, the color and surface finish is different. I'm also planning on using a more durable (and more expensive) material for the production parts. I don't think the prototype material would hold up as well to the red dot mount I have planned.

I guess I could offer an 'economy' version.

Mister Freeze · Post by **Mister Freeze** » 29 Nov 2012, 06:40

I think an economy version would be a good idea. For most, the cover is really just cosmetic, so a rough piece the customer could finish either by sanding or painting (Duracoat, for example) would make the color difference and texture a non-issue. They could also help generate the capital to fund the real deal.

Valorius · Post by **Valorius** » 29 Nov 2012, 08:01

Good idea Freeze.

Post by **panzermk2** » 29 Nov 2012, 10:45

s-industries wrote:The part you seen in the photos is a 3D printed part. It is the only way to get this type of project off the ground with no equipment/tooling costs. 3D printers are cheap in comparison to IM tools, but still expensive considering the project.

I could sell this a little cheaper (probably even hit that $75 mark) if I sold the same basic piece as the prototype. As you can see though, the color and surface finish is different. I'm also planning on using a more durable (and more expensive) material for the production parts. I don't think the prototype material would hold up as well to the red dot mount I have planned.

I guess I could offer an 'economy' version.

Don't waste your time going cheap. In the end no one will be happy with the product.

Valorius · Post by **Valorius** » 29 Nov 2012, 11:06

As long as the quality is good, an unfinished slide cover would still be a useful and viable alternative IMO. The user could just duracoat or spray it themselves, whatever color they wanted. That takes care of having to offer 100 different color options too. OP could then branch out to offer custom finishing of the covers...for a fee.

s-industries · Post by **s-industries** » 29 Nov 2012, 17:18

This wouldn't be going cheap in the bad sense of the word. The two main reasons for the higher cost material are strength for a red dot mount and surface finish/color. The lower cost material should be fine for just a cover. It's got a bit lower modulus but that's not really a bad thing, and I actually like the finish on the prototype (although it's not for everyone).

I think I could offer three different options:

1. A 'DIY' cover. This would be the cheapest purchase cost and would be for those who want to do a little sanding and coating (although I need to check the 'paint-ability'). This cover would come in the white (literally, it would be white).

2. A 'Standard' cover. This would basically be like the prototype. Switching to the black color adds a bit onto the cost. Sanding is not recommended as the black plastic is only used on the exterior surfaces (so if you sanded into it you'd hit white).

3. A 'Premium' cover. This would utilize the higher strength material and would be set up for the red dot mount.

Still don't expect $7, or even $50, but it should come in quite a bit lower than $100.

PainKillaX · Post by **PainKillaX** » 29 Nov 2012, 17:36

That would be a plus for those of us without red dot intentions

Post by **Rapier1772** » 29 Nov 2012, 17:37

I am curious, depending on the 'paint-ability' of the DIYs, if EA's custom cover patterns would also work?

Personally, I have no desire for a red dot on mine & don't mind doing a little sanding. I liked the set up & finish in the above pics (especially the zombie thing :laugh: ) except for the back - would have to smooth out those horizontal lines somehow.

Valorius · Post by **Valorius** » 30 Nov 2012, 04:33

That's a great idea S-industries. Multiple options means multiple customers.

s-industries · Post by **s-industries** » 01 Dec 2012, 20:44

I'll do the next prototype in plain white. The local gun shop does cerakote so I'll talk to them about giving it a shot.

I think we may have to do a special run of "Blue's Tactical Zombie Killer" models :laugh:

Valorius · Post by **Valorius** » 02 Dec 2012, 10:58

S-industries: "Yes, I would sell tons of these if they were $50, and I would lose money on each sale....good business?"

-----

It seems to work for Glock.

They have literally given away their guns to get the market share they now enjoy. Much harder for a niche product for a niche gun, obviously...but it has been done. Others have no doubt tried similar tactics and failed miserably!

I do understand what you're saying though. Make 10000 of them and you could probably sell them for $20 each and make a great profit. Make 10, and $100 is the order of the day...

Post by **Rapier1772** » 02 Dec 2012, 13:01

When it is a major company that has already raked in millions through guns sales & government contracts, then they can afford to give stuff away.

Mister Freeze · Post by **Mister Freeze** » 02 Dec 2012, 13:44

s-industries wrote:I'll do the next prototype in plain white. The local gun shop does cerakote so I'll talk to them about giving it a shot.

I think we may have to do a special run of "Blue's Tactical Zombie Killer" models :laugh:

Don't call it white: to improve sales, call it something tacticool like "Arctic Combat White."

Post by **blueorison** » 02 Dec 2012, 15:42

Valorius wrote:S-industries: "Yes, I would sell tons of these if they were $50, and I would lose money on each sale....good business?"

-----

It seems to work for Glock.

They have literally given away their guns to get the market share they now enjoy. Much harder for a niche product for a niche gun, obviously...but it has been done. Others have no doubt tried similar tactics and failed miserably!

I do understand what you're saying though. Make 10000 of them and you could probably sell them for $20 each and make a great profit. Make 10, and $100 is the order of the day...

Really? They give their guns away? You have proof of that?

Glocks cost about $500 for base models. You know how much it costs Glock to make one model vs how much they sell it to distributors?

Valorius · Post by **Valorius** » 04 Dec 2012, 13:12

Rapier1772 wrote:When it is a major company that has already raked in millions through guns sales & government contracts, then they can afford to give stuff away.

Glock was an upstart when they started all that. With exactly one product. A plastic handgun. Hell, they still only have one product, really.

Fortune favors the bold. ~Homer

@Blue:

Yes... Glock has given away guns to police departments. Lots of them. They also regularly sell them for a loss to departments as well. Yes, i have proof, as could anyone that did any research on the subject.

It is a common business practice. Whether it be airfare price wars where the airlines lose money hand over fist, Auto maker low financing promotional offers where Ford and Chevy, etc, etc compete against one another, costing themselves literally hundreds of millions in potential long term interest payments in order to increase their market share. Or whether it be a private investigator in Philly undercutting his competitors prices, even though he does so at a loss, to get his foot in the door.

This goes on every single day in numerous industries. Like i said...common business practice.

Of course that was not even a major point in my last post, but whatever.

Post by **Cyberfly** » 04 Dec 2012, 16:16

Okay, I've searched ALL over the web and I can't find one single instance of a situation where Glock 'gave away' firearms to any LE force.
I can find where Glock donated money to LE Memorial Funds...
I can find where Glock submitted samples for testing...
I can find where Glock submitted LE dealers and wholesalers dealer samples...
I can even find where Glock 'gave away' promotional items like Wall Posters to Dealers who did so much in volume sales (is it really 'free' if you have to reach a certain sales point in order to get it? I'm just saying...) but I can't find anywhere that Glock gave away firearms to LE departments or military.
So...I'm curious. Can you point me to your references?

Or were you just making it up?

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