Next subsonic load... Hodgdon Clays

[1moreaug]

Yep. Sounds crazy and Hodgdon won't give me a yea or nay on it but Clays is the powder they used for the .223 subsonics and the pressure in the .223 is only 3000cpu. I know the .223 case is much larger and I know the .223 can handle 52000 cpu but it is a super clean burning powder and it will certainly all burn before the bullet gets even 4" out of the case. The .223 data shows 1035fps with 3.3 Gr of powder under a 55Gr FMJ. The .223 rounds are so quiet you can hear the click of the hammer and the thud of the bullet hitting the target and nothing else. Biggest problem with the .223 is that it won't cycle the action. That is a blessing and a curse. A blessing because there is no sound but the drop of the hammer. A curse because racking the bolt again takes you off target and is more noise than you want to make.

I didn't want to drive an hour to test function of this load before I checked to make sure it even worked so I loaded 2 rounds with 2.4 grains and fired them for function only into a pile of sand 5 feet away from the muzzle. The only sound was the action moving and there was no flash (did the test at night). Next round loaded with authority and fired the same. Cases show no pressure signs. I will load some more up and take them out to chronograph them in the next couple of days

[Grantness]

Be careful of those "loaded with authority" rounds. Sometimes excess kick on a subsonic load can be associated w/ a jammed bullet.

Those .223 subsonice sound like CB rounds :laugh: They're really the only thing I can shoot in my yard out of my 10/22 this time of year w/o disturbing the whole neighborhood. Manually cycling the bolt is a PIA though. Not worth the trade off in my opinion (depending on what application you want to use them for). I would think that blowback would have more of a chance of cycling than a gas impingement system...but thats just speculation.

Keep us posted!

[fatherfoof]

In 5.7 Clays would be interesting to see if a round would work for both carbine and FsN. Maybe you'll surpise all of us. Good luck and be careful.

[1moreaug]

I don't have one of the pistols but I would think it would be more difficult to cycle the action on the pistol than the blowback action of the AR57. I know I have subsonic 9mm rounds for my M10 that will run 1000 rounds per minute and cycle the AR 9mm fine but wont cycle my Glock or my daughters Taurus.

Generally speaking, the longer the barrel, the faster the bullet. Therefore a subsonic bullet in a handgun could be supersonic out of a 16" barrel. Not true for all powders and bullet weights but true as a general statement.

There was no bullet stuck in the barrel from those Clays loads. It could be that the "authority" comment was due to me being paranoid about how quiet it was outside and how my neighbor was outside smoking a cigarette. The sound of that bolt moving sounded like forging steel under those conditions

[Grantness]

IMHO, the blowback on the pistol is prob easier to achieve since the bolt on the AR57 and PS90 is so much heavier (the pistol is blowback operated too...Im not sure by your wording if you meant that the AR57 was blowback and the pistol not). The charge on the pistol rounds would obviously need to be significantly lower since bullets travel faster out of the longer barrels, like you said.

[1moreaug]

Whoo hoo!! I found the round for the subsonic sound!
This sucker had:

• quietest sound
  cleanest burn
  best feed
  lowest recoil
  cheapest cost
  and best standard deviation

of all the subsonics I have tried so far

2.7 Gr Hodgdon Clays (not International Clays, just plain ol' Clays)
55Gr Montana Gold FMJ
mixed once fired, twice fired cases
Brass length 1.138 - 1.140
COAL 1.580 - 1.585
Primer Remington small pistol magnum 5 1/2
Temp 97 F
Altitude 1100 +/-

• HI 1000FPS
  LO 975FPS
  AVG 991.4
  Spread 25FPS
  Standard Deviation 10.43
  Round 1) 968
  Round 2) 975
  Round 3) 1000
  Round 4) 994
  Round 5) 1000

Also tested same load with a Wolf small rifle magnum primer. A little louder but the sound came from the chamber area...still silent out of the suppressor. I also had 2 rounds fail to feed. The bolt closed on an empty chamber. I don't know if this is because the bolt didn't cycle all the way back or a mag failure. I recocked the bolt manually and they fired fine. This is the data:

• Round 1) 1021
  Round 2) 1041
  Round 3) 987
  Round 4) 1056
  Round 5) Crono error

NOW I can move on to the 62 Gr M855's that I want to crank up.

[njogi]

Thanks for your Hardwork...I would like to thank you and all those who take share the load data. Thank you for taking time to post and share for us. This forum is great...I am getting that much closer to start reloading 5.7. Thank you all . Too many screen names to list, to thank but you all know who I am thanking.
:thumb:
:patriot:

[Grantness]

Aug has done some phenominal work w/ the subsonics. Now all he needs to do is get a FsN so he can work up some loads for me

[Grantness]

I was also able to proof 62 grain bullets at supersonic speeds. So far I've gotten them up to 1,600 fps without stability issues.

What would be the usefulness of such a round? Intermediate barriers?

[Grantness]

:lmao: A bold, honest statement. Cant argue w/ demand though, right?

[1moreaug]

Im very interested in the supersonics of those 62Gr bullets.

[1moreaug]

Has anyone used subsonics on a rifle with a 3 speed transmission? I'd love to see a video

[njogi]

Has anyone used subsonics on a rifle with a 3 speed transmission? I'd love to see a video

How about a P90 with and without can. The problem is we have not had access to the subsonics for now ...trying to get into the reloading of 5.7. It is getting expensive to send multi's downrange as it happens so fast on a P90. So far it is only done using LF 195. Do not have upper for M16 3 speed.

[1moreaug]

Has anyone used subsonics on a rifle with a 3 speed transmission? I'd love to see a video

How about a P90 with and without can. The problem is we have not had access to the subsonics for now ...trying to get into the reloading of 5.7. It is getting expensive to send multi's downrange as it happens so fast on a P90. So far it is only done using LF 195. Do not have upper for M16 3 speed.

I think I felt my man parts move while reading about shooting that P90....yep, I just felt it again while thinking about it.

[Grantness]

im guessing the only way to get your hands on a P90 is to be a class 3 dealer or an LEO/Mill in a department that uses them? Not the same as a pre-ban M16....

[njogi]

My first P90 experience was from CMMG inc letting me send 50 rnds down range in one full burst...Loved the way it handled without having worry about the recoil....

Then my Brother in Law who is a FFL/SOT bought one to demo for a local dept....So whenever there is an MG shoot...the family enjoys shooting P90, G36, MP5 , MP5, UMP's. 16's, Aug, etc...

It's just I can not let my trigger finger control burst like on MP5 because the " kid" in me wants to send them all down range with P90 and kinda takes over me...

I hoping the Lee Dies come in so I can reload the 5.7 to play with FiveSeven with the Spectre TM 22RF can with the sub sonics.

I have the can...Will try it on bro-in-laws...If it feels good I can get into a barrel for mine and both my S&W and FiveSeven share the can.

I love this forum ...Everyone is great and hoping to become member pretty soon..

If I see any of you at a shoot and a P90 is available...We always let people shoot it...After all it is a post...not a pre - Just bring your own factory Ammo or pay for the ammo.

Sorry to get off the topic .....When my dies come .....I hope to have fun with 5.7 loading ...then ..the powder...I do not have the crono...I load .45, .40, 9MM, 44mag and 50 AE....Just getting into other cal...

[1moreaug]

AARRRRRRGH!!! I finally got a chance to go out and test these rounds for accuracy. I was so excited. They have a low Standard Deviation, they are pretty clean for subsonics, reliable, cheap to make, easy on the brass, and as far as I can tell so far, HIGHLY INACCURATE!!! Keep in mind I did this testing in the dark with a NV scope that hadn't been sighted in for that caliber or round, but I have never needed 20 rounds to align a scope to a target 50 yds away before. I ended up with 1 round on the paper. I brought it in to 25 yards and finally hit paper again on my last round I took with me. (I only took 30 because my plan was to sight in the scope with 10 @ 50yds, get a 10 shot group at 50 yds and a 10 shot group at 100 yds). I am going to try in daylight with another scope tomorrow or Friday but from what I can tell, they were hitting anywhere from a foot to the left or right of the target to hitting the ground 2 feet in front of the target. That would mean I need a 3 ft. square target to hit at 50 yds. Not quite the coyote gun I was hoping for.

[starfury]

I ran some quick rough ballistics for your subsonic 55gr (using 1000 ft/sec, BC=0.27, scope height above barrel = 4” and zeroed at 50 yards). These are the drops I get:

Range (yards), Drop (in), Vel (ft/sec), Energy (ft-lb), TOF (sec)
0, -4, 1000, 122.1, 0,
25, -0.89, 988.1, 119.2, 0.075,
50, 0, 976.4, 116.4, 0.152,
75, -1.39, 964.9, 113.7, 0.229,
100, -5.12, 953.5, 111, 0.307,
125, -11.24, 942.3, 108.4, 0.386,
150, -19.81, 931.3, 105.9, 0.466,
175, -30.89, 920.3, 103.4, 0.547,
200, -44.54, 909.6, 101, 0.629,

Big drop since they are so slow – so I would recommend a 20 yard zero to minimize drop out to ~125 yards, here are the 20 yard numbers:
Range (yards), Drop (in)
0, -4,
25, 0.78,
50, 3.33,
75, 3.6,
100, 1.54,
125, -2.91,
150, -9.82,
175, -19.23,
200, -31.21,

For my rough sight in these days (since I swap optics around so much) I usually throw a clay pigeon up on a berm so I can see where the shots hit then make the large adjustments – once the clay is hit (usually about 5 shots) I jump over to the paper.

Good luck and keep us posted on how it goes – I might have to try some subsonics one of these days!

[1moreaug]

Just so everyone knows, I haven't completely given up on this subsonic deal yet. I have some pistol classes I have been taking and had to start loading up and practicing with my 1911 again so I just haven't had time to do more with it. Hopefully I can get back to it by early September. I also have some "battle rifle" classes in late Aug and Early Sept that would be pretty fun to do with the AR57 if I can get it to function 1/2 as well as a PS90 by then. I have already redesigned their bolt and ejector. Now if I can just figure out a way to design a better extractor I might have a rifle that I don't have to hide from my friends out of embarrassment.

[Village_Idiot]

Any new info? I will have my new bench completed this weekend and have everything set up for 5.7 on a new auto-indexing RCBS pro2k. With some help from the info in this thread and others, I am planning on getting the Sub-Sonic project perfected and semi-mass produced. I have a FsN, PS90 SBR, and AR-57 16" with a suppressor for all, so with any luck I will be able to work on loads for all barrel lengths. I also have access to a P90 so I will be able to get an idea of how they function in FA I'll keep data, pics, and maybe even some vids posted here with everything I come up with.

[jmz5]

Welcome to the forum. :thumb:

[gw45acp]

Yep. Sounds crazy and Hodgdon won't give me a yea or nay on it but Clays is the powder they used for the .223 subsonics and the pressure in the .223 is only 3000cpu. I know the .223 case is much larger and I know the .223 can handle 52000 cpu but it is a super clean burning powder and it will certainly all burn before the bullet gets even 4" out of the case. The .223 data shows 1035fps with 3.3 Gr of powder under a 55Gr FMJ. The .223 rounds are so quiet you can hear the click of the hammer and the thud of the bullet hitting the target and nothing else. Biggest problem with the .223 is that it won't cycle the action. That is a blessing and a curse. A blessing because there is no sound but the drop of the hammer. A curse because racking the bolt again takes you off target and is more noise than you want to make.

I didn't want to drive an hour to test function of this load before I checked to make sure it even worked so I loaded 2 rounds with 2.4 grains and fired them for function only into a pile of sand 5 feet away from the muzzle. The only sound was the action moving and there was no flash (did the test at night). Next round loaded with authority and fired the same. Cases show no pressure signs. I will load some more up and take them out to chronograph them in the next couple of days

Just to clarify, you meant PSI, not CUP, right? SAAMI rates pressures in PSI and I believe they rate the .223 Rem at 55,000 PSI.