Ok folks, I need some help with subsonics

smcharchan · Post by **smcharchan** » 26 Oct 2009, 14:03

Hello all, I'm a long time reader but this is my first post.

I feel obligated to say thank you for all the great information and for all the time dedicated to developing safe loads for this cartridge.

I have read the wiki info posted regarding reloading this round, searched for and read every post that contained the word subsonic, and read just about every other post regarding reloading the 5.7, but I still can't find a suitable subsonic load.

Why do I want a good subsonic load? Here's why:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxxxxkq48Qk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Please help! I have tried loads with both 2400 and Power Pistol behind 55gr FMJ's, but they are not stabilizing and are keyholing at distances as short as 5 yards! I have managed to get some 45gr Hornady HPs meant for the Hornet to stabilize, but I want the little bit of extra energy that the 55gr projos will provide.

Does anyone have a good load that they can share with the group?

Thanks everyone! :thumb:

Post by **f3rr37** » 26 Oct 2009, 14:13

Welcome! I'm sure someone will pipe up soon enough with a suggestion for a load.

Why is it all these people are tempting me to buy another FiveseveN? :wall:

:laugh:

Hobknob · Post by **Hobknob** » 26 Oct 2009, 14:41

Keyholing is a bit odd on a 55gr (even subsonic). Just out of curiosity, was the keyholing out of the FsN with or without the suppressor (wondering if it is having an influence on the stability).
I've had good luck stabilizing up to 62gr projectiles, so I'm curious why yours aren't. I don't have my load data in front of me, but I'll take a look later and try and get that for you.
You mentioned, you read any post relating to subsonics and didn't find what you were looking for - I personally haven't tried 2400 (I think I've tried PP but I don't remember). Are you locked into those two powders, or are you open to picking up a different kind?
There is a guy who posted some really heavy projectiles and had them stabilize, but I don't remember the post off the top of my head.

62gr stuff
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=4907

55gr stuff
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=115

Hope that helps for starters

Post by **Grantness** » 26 Oct 2009, 14:43

1moreaug has done some nice work with subsonics. He had some success w/ AA57444 (but im not sure if he ever used a FsN), and a couple others I think. Maybe he could help you out?

Hobnob created some subsonic loads w/ HS7 & 62gr bullets: viewtopic.php?f=19&t=4907&hilit=subsonic" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . He got close w/ 5gr bullets, but didnt go quite low enough. I'd be willing to bet you could get there with ~4.8gr.

I seem to remember tejohnson loading some subsonics as well :ponder:

Ive never really tried to create a good subsonic load, but I did dabble w/ N350 last fourth of july just to make something I could shoot off around the house. I cant really give you a specific load, but I bet if you went down close to 4gr or lower you'd be able to go subsonic w/ a 55gr bullet. Apparantly you can take True Blue that low as well.

I'll have to yield the floor to someone more experienced w/ subsonics than I.

Oh...one more thing. Welcome to the forum! :cya: There's a chance you might find more information as a silver/gold member

smcharchan · Post by **smcharchan** » 27 Oct 2009, 03:08

Thanks everyone. I'll answer a couple of specific questions:

Hobknob wrote:Keyholing is a bit odd on a 55gr (even subsonic). Just out of curiosity, was the keyholing out of the FsN with or without the suppressor (wondering if it is having an influence on the stability).

I saw keholing with the suppressor on the gun, got scared (of course!) and did all further testing without the can on.

Hobknob wrote:I've had good luck stabilizing up to 62gr projectiles, so I'm curious why yours aren't.

Yeah, I have read your posts and seeing that you got the loooong ss109 projo to stabilize gave me much hope for success.

Hobknob wrote:Are you locked into those two powders, or are you open to picking up a different kind?

I've got plenty of different powders sitting around, and I'm willing to buy more. I think I'll try HS7 next.

Grantness wrote:1moreaug has done some nice work with subsonics. He had some success w/ AA57444 (but im not sure if he ever used a FsN), and a couple others I think. Maybe he could help you out?

I read his posts regarding 5744 and Clays Grantness, but he wasn't too satisfied with the results. I'm hoping he'll also chime in with any new info.

Thanks for the warm welcome. I will certainly share my results with the group once I find a good solution.

ChuckD · Post by **ChuckD** » 27 Oct 2009, 09:38

smcharchan wrote: I've got plenty of different powders sitting around, and I'm willing to buy more. I think I'll try HS7 next.

I'm sure if you find more HS7, you should let the forum know as it was recently discontinued.

njogi · Post by **njogi** » 29 Oct 2009, 08:30

I am very interested and have loaded some for quite some time but my work has kept me too busy to go to range yet and also have time to chrono them..on the subs.

Medula Oblongata had posted on 1-20-2007 somewhere:
4.6 3N37 (can be pushed higher or lower depending if target load or suppressor use)
[ note: Medula Oblongata had written the loads were max loads, I am assuming 4.6g would be the max without suppressor]

Medula Oblongata wrote in another post.
"TB is safe down to about 2.2 grains; although ignition can be a little spotty down at those charges. Light loads are often better with a more voluminous powder like Power Pistol or Blue Dot."

"For a subsonic load, I'd start at 4.2 grains of TB and work down. Stop when the bullet stops coming out the BBL"

-------------------
Adding to Hobnob's True Blue data on the 55g FMJ. Maybe True Blue would a good try.

Also this Data, recorded using True Blue by someone:

Bullet: 55grn FMJ BT Primer: Small Rifle Primer
Powder Grains Speed Grains Speed Notes Ramshot True Blue 3.1 1129

Bullet: 55grn Nosler Bal Tip Primer: Small Rifle Primer
Powder Grains Speed Grains Speed Notes Ramshot True Blue 3.1 1144

Bullet: 55grn Sierra Primer: Small Rifle Primer
Powder Grains Speed Grains Speed Notes Ramshot True Blue 3.1 1072 Ramshot True Blue 4.4 1290 4.6 1328 Ramshot True Blue 5.0 5.2 1427 Stout
-----------------------

I am assuming you have already tried these using Power Pistol maybe...Posted by tejohnson - I do not know the barrel lenght on this load:

"Alliant Power Pistol - could be added to the list. 2.7gn of it with a Hornady 55gn flat base spire point (short projectile) at 1.589" OAL makes for a decent plinking subsonic. Quite a cheap load, and you get about a 2500 subsonic rounds from 1 lb."
---------------------------
I think Blue Dot might be good to try...

----

Post by **f3rr37** » 29 Oct 2009, 09:35

FiveseveN or PS90, if PS90, what barrel length?

laztat · Post by **laztat** » 29 Oct 2009, 12:29

Nice Video...We're all big fans of Pictures and Videos

tejohnson · Post by **tejohnson** » 02 Nov 2009, 06:30

I had some luck with 2.7 grain of Power Pistol with the Hornady 55 grain spire point projectile and CCI-400 primer. The spire points have a flat base and short length. With a longer/max OAL, it seems like a perfect combination for the 10" bbl.

I have also used HS6 and True Blue, but the loads seem quite a bit more dirty.

Post by **Rapier1772** » 02 Nov 2009, 06:37

Nice! And a fun way to prune trees :laugh:

smcharchan · Post by **smcharchan** » 03 Nov 2009, 10:51

f3rr37 wrote:FiveseveN or PS90, if PS90, what barrel length?

I'm loading for the fiveseven pistol.

Pete D · Post by **Pete D** » 19 Nov 2009, 01:57

Just saw this thread.
How subsonic do you want to go? Back in 2006 (data lost, I'm supposing) in response to another query, I tried IMR 4064 as a way of keeping velocity down.
9.4 grains of 4064, essentially a caseful - right to the neck - was loaded with a 45 grain bullet and a CCI-400 primer.
The five shot string was 920,931,956,971,882. There were no malfunctions. Accuracy at 25 yards was acceptable - no keyholing.
Not sure at all if that would be appropriate for the firearm in question; it worked in the pistol.
I did not pursue it further.
Pete

Post by **Rapier1772** » 07 Sep 2010, 10:49

I am trying my hand at these so some useful advice would be appreciated

I have read on the Developing Subsonics page (I think Esteves provided the link) not to go below 30% case capacity.

Has anyone actually measured the capacity of a 5.7 case? Wikipedia :skep: says case volume was .9cm³ (14gr water) but I did my own water testing & my numbers didn't match. I'm not in a lab of course but I scaled the water & it was only 10.3gr which works out to be .67cm³. And yes, I had already cleaned them :skep:

Post by **panzermk2** » 07 Sep 2010, 14:08

12.11 Gr .786cm³

Post by **Rapier1772** » 07 Sep 2010, 14:38

Thank you!

Post by **Rapier1772** » 08 Sep 2010, 12:44

satellitedr3ams wrote:apparently a 52gr hornady hp and gr of hs-6 give you a subsonic, there is a video of a guy shooting them on youtube.

How many grains of HS-6? :p
This linked page said not to go below 30% case volume http://members.shaw.ca/cronhelm/DevelopSubsonic.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I'm new to this so I don't want to push it yet. One guy said I could use cornmeal as a filler though, or washed wool.
I have found the following loads but they were all using 55gr FMJ. I am going to try 50gr V-max.
AA #5744 5.4gr
AA #7 3.2gr but there wasn't enough powder in the case (30% volume thing)
Clays 2.7gr
True Blue 3.0gr but there wasn't enough powder in the case (30% volume thing)
VV 3N37 3.4gr
HS-6 3.4gr Borderline on case volume :skep:
VV N350 3.2gr out of an AR-57 w/16" barrel & 45gr Sinterfire (don't have that powder anyway)
Power Pistol 2.7gr - don't have that powder

Post by **Rapier1772** » 08 Sep 2010, 13:39

That's a lot of empty space in the case. I suppose I should start looking at what to use for fillers to keep the powder back if I am going to go that low.

Post by **panzermk2** » 08 Sep 2010, 20:23

Don't screw with fillers. You like your hand correct?

Post by **Rapier1772** » 08 Sep 2010, 20:55

Of course I do, it does all my favorite things :laugh:

I was doing some more reading on fillers today - pretty much everywhere & everyone said don't use them in a necked case. So I guess I will just stick with the >30% rule for now.

Post by **Rapier1772** » 12 Sep 2010, 14:17

My first try with subsonics - no squibs! Yea!! :laugh:
I got all these loads from this forum - search function n00bs! :lmao:
Its easier if I take a screen shot of my Excel spread sheet than to type it here but here's the basic info:

Loaded 15 rounds of each powder/weight but divided that into 3 groups (5rd each) using 3 different primers -> CCI 400, Winchester Small Rifle, Remington 6 1/2
Hornady 50gr V-Max Moly
Trim: 1.126"
OAL: 1.585"
Gun: FsN USG Accurized & w/threaded extension welded on by Tornado Technologies
Where it says inches low, target was only 10yd away & sighted for 197s
On the Clay's section - it says set 4 & 5 that means CCI & WSR respectively

FTFr: these failure to fires were not due to powder charge. The primers weren't dented. I didn't see anything in the firing pin hole but something was stopping the impact. Later, I put all the FTFr rounds into one mag & had no problems with them but I didn't try to get any data - uncooperative bastards.
I cleaned my gun last night so that wasn't the problem.

Also tried some AA #7 & True Blue but the powder volume was too low so I tried them as full loads

Post by **Rapier1772** » 01 Oct 2010, 13:38

Is there a formula or something to find out what the sound barrier is at different altitudes? Pocatello is ~4500ft, just wondering

I've done a little more subsonic testing, here's the data: (chrono ~6ft from muzzle & target was @ 10yd)

Powders: Accurate 5744, Trail Boss, Clays, Power Pistol, HS-6, VV3N37

Post by **f3rr37** » 01 Oct 2010, 14:09

Am I reading this right, that the speed of sound isn't affected by altitude, only air temperature?
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-speedsound.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

speed of sound (m/s) = 331.5 * sqrt(1 + (t/273.15)), where t = temperature in m/sec

Post by **Rapier1772** » 01 Oct 2010, 14:27

That is odd, I know density plays a part in the speed but I don't know how much of a part in the air pressure thing - the difference in pressures may be negligible as compared to temp. (Sound travels faster in water because it is more dense). Thanks ~~Fuzzer~~ Fuzzy

Post by **f3rr37** » 01 Oct 2010, 14:28

Rapier1772 wrote:That is odd, I know density plays a part in the speed but I don't know how much of a part in the air pressure thing - the difference may be negligible. (Sound travels faster in water because it is more dense). Thanks ~~Fuzzer~~ Fuzzy

Welcome.

Post by **f3rr37** » 01 Oct 2010, 14:29

I wonder if air pressure plays a bigger part in directly affecting air temperature than it does the speed of sound?

Post by **panzermk2** » 01 Oct 2010, 14:30

f3rr37 wrote:Am I reading this right, that the speed of sound isn't affected by altitude, only air temperature?
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-speedsound.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

speed of sound (m/s) = 331.5 * sqrt(1 + (t/273.15)), where t = temperature in m/sec

Yes it is affected by altitude. The higher the altitude the thinner the air. It's so minor though to not really be an issue. The higher altitude will affect the bullet velocity more by giving you a few 100fps extra.

SpaceCoyote · Post by **SpaceCoyote** » 04 Oct 2010, 08:51

Did some subsonic testing this weekend for the ps90 10" barrel:

10" barrel
Winchester 55gr FMJ (horribly inconsistent, I had hell keeping my OAL in range. Just trying to use these up then will buy better ones)
OAL - 1.585"
Hodgdon HS-6
CCI 500 - Small Pistol
temp - 85
elevation - about 1100

3.3 gr
Avg - 1212

3.2 gr
Avg - 1140

3.1 gr
Avg - 1040

3.0 gr
Avg - 998
*Had one slow one @ 865fps otherwise average would have been a 1015

No keyholes even on the 3.0 loads.

A few of the 3.1's were transonic so I loaded my next batch between 3.0-3.1

I did have two FTF which I am blaming on the primers, I had some trouble with this same batch of primers on my 9mm loads. I have loaded a batch with primers from a different carton and will hopefully get to test those soon.

*This is not load advise, merely sharing my data. Exercise caution at all times when reloading!

SpaceCoyote · Post by **SpaceCoyote** » 04 Oct 2010, 09:05

panzermk2 wrote: Yes it is affected by altitude. The higher the altitude the thinner the air. It's so minor though to not really be an issue. The higher altitude will affect the bullet velocity more by giving you a few 100fps extra.

Case in point (based on data above)
5" barrel FsN
36gr Varmint Grenade
6.0gr True Blue
CCI 400

Rapier1772 in Idaho @ ~4500ft - 2018fps
SpaceCoyote in Texas @ ~1000ft - 1866fps

You also seated you're bullets a bit deeper than I which could give more fps also, but this is still a good example.

Post by **f3rr37** » 04 Oct 2010, 09:19

SpaceCoyote wrote:
panzermk2 wrote: Yes it is affected by altitude. The higher the altitude the thinner the air. It's so minor though to not really be an issue. The higher altitude will affect the bullet velocity more by giving you a few 100fps extra.

Case in point (based on data above)
5" barrel FsN
36gr Varmint Grenade
6.0gr True Blue
CCI 400

Rapier1772 in Idaho @ ~4500ft - 2018fps
SpaceCoyote in Texas @ ~1000ft - 1866fps

You also seated you're bullets a bit deeper than I which could give more fps also, but this is still a good example.

Curious, what was the temperature difference?

SpaceCoyote · Post by **SpaceCoyote** » 04 Oct 2010, 10:17

f3rr37 wrote: Curious, what was the temperature difference?

Good question... I was at 80-85.

Hopefully Rapier1772 will chime in and let us know on his end.

Post by **Rapier1772** » 04 Oct 2010, 12:43

SpaceCoyote wrote:
f3rr37 wrote: Curious, what was the temperature difference?
Good question... I was at 80-85.
Hopefully Rapier1772 will chime in and let us know on his end.

Sorry, thought I posted that. It was ~75F

Post by **f3rr37** » 04 Oct 2010, 13:03

So a 10F temperature difference brings a 152fps velocity difference (assuming only temperature plays a role)... but I would say there is more to it than just temperature...

@ ~4500ft - 2018fps - 75F
@ ~1000ft - 1866fps - 85F

Given Jay's statement that "higher altitude will affect the bullet velocity more by giving you a few 100fps extra", it seems that he is right on.

SpaceCoyote · Post by **SpaceCoyote** » 04 Oct 2010, 14:09

Also Rapier1772 was seating his to 1.538" compared to my 1.585". I'm not sure how much difference that would make.

I try to stay conservative and seat any longer bullets to a minimum 1.580".

Just curious how deep do others seat the 36gr Varmint Grenades?

Post by **f3rr37** » 04 Oct 2010, 14:22

Well that could possibly account for some of the difference in velocity, not sure how much of it though.

Post by **panzermk2** » 04 Oct 2010, 15:35

SpaceCoyote wrote:Also Rapier1772 was seating his to 1.538" compared to my 1.585". I'm not sure how much difference that would make.

I try to stay conservative and seat any longer bullets to a minimum 1.580".

Just curious how deep do others seat the 36gr Varmint Grenades?

f3rr37 wrote:Well that could possibly account for some of the difference in velocity, not sure how much of it though.

Up words of 200fps, if this was standard load the deeper seating could cause blown primers and neck separations.

SpaceCoyote · Post by **SpaceCoyote** » 04 Oct 2010, 15:46

panzermk2 wrote:
Up words of 200fps, if this was standard load the deeper seating could cause blown primers and neck separations.

I guess I'll stick to my minimum 1.580" rule then

Post by **Rapier1772** » 04 Oct 2010, 18:43

SpaceCoyote wrote:
panzermk2 wrote: Up words of 200fps, if this was standard load the deeper seating could cause blown primers and neck separations.
I guess I'll stick to my minimum 1.580" rule then

And I guess I'll move mine out a bit - I hate it when that other crap happens

Post by **f3rr37** » 04 Oct 2010, 19:54

So then the effect from elevation is negligible, like we concluded earlier... as seating depth obviously plays a huge role in pressure.

Post by **panzermk2** » 04 Oct 2010, 22:33

Good idea. :thumb:

SpaceCoyote · Post by **SpaceCoyote** » 06 Oct 2010, 09:57

Back to the topic of subsonics. I went out yesterday with my new batch of 50 rnds (see my previous thread) using CCI 500 SP Primers from a different, fresher carton and had no misfires so it was good to get that figured out. Now what to do with my 2 cartons of suspect SP Primers?.

I didn't bring the chrony out this time as I had a pretty good idea of my target charge weight from my previous outing.

For 10" barrel ps90
1.585" (as best I could with those dern Win 55gr fmj)
55gr Winchester FMJ (very inconsistent)
3.0gr HS-6 (I double check every charge on the scale, as most of you know hs6 doesn't meter as well as the finer powders like TB, so if it went a bit over I wouldn't worry about it, but if it went under I always tickle to top off, so some were probably 3.05-3.1, but all stayed subsonic)
CCI 500 SP Primer

Shot 50 rounds (10-15 rapid) w/o a hiccup. All cycled well and none keyholed. The spent cases were filthy and contained small bits of unburnt powder, but the bore and action were surprisingly clean.

And of course my reloading disclaimer: This is NOT load advise, merely letting everyone know what works in MY rifle. Always practice safe reloading techniques and use only published data, take any online reloading info with a large grain of salt....

Post by **Rapier1772** » 16 Oct 2010, 10:25

Well that was weird. At the outdoor range & without the suppressor, my 3N37 60gr loads were hitting ~6" low.
I went to the indoor range with the suppressor on & the same loads were right on target :ponder: But had 2 key holes

Considerably quieter now but still not to my liking yet. The bullet impacting the metal backstop made more noise than my muzzle blast.
Damn, back to experimenting... :wall:

Post by **Rapier1772** » 04 Apr 2011, 12:14

Went out for more testing again. I was not worried about accuracy this time. It was windy (almost straight from back though) and cold ~ 34F. Unfortunately, since EA took sooooo long in getting their Go-No Go gauge out

, I had a lot of rounds that wouldn't chamber. So I did not get a consistent number of rounds per load. Its all their fault! :laugh: :p Always blame the equipment or lack of

Anyway, here is what data I did get:

Powders: VV 3N37, HS6, Power Pistol

Post by **Rapier1772** » 27 Nov 2011, 16:05

Wow, I did not realize how much of a difference temperature made. Most of my data is taken when it is 70-85F but I did some testing this weekend when it was ~24F. Slight powder increase on one but 100fps lower speed.

Powders: AutoComp, True Blue, Accurate 7, Win 296, Power Pistol

Pac Sound · Post by **Pac Sound** » 24 Dec 2011, 18:38

I know this is an old thread and all, but has anyone tried enlarging the flash hole and using a magnum primer on these small density loads? Only asking because that's what I have to do for my .308.. (using Palma brass) even in my AR. I know it's to reduce the chance of S.E.E. but I figured it may help with getting a proper burn on low density/low fill loads.
Just an idea.

Post by **Rapier1772** » 25 Dec 2011, 00:11

I believe someone has tried that in an ancient thread somewhere but I haven't found it to be necessary. I have tried quite a few different variations & haven't had any troubles with it actually firing.

Post by **Rapier1772** » 11 May 2012, 16:25

My testing today included a couple of recent requests/comments on the forum. I tried to do 15 rounds just for speed checks & then 5 rounds through the suppressor for difference in speed comparison (had a few errors). I also used brass which had been tumbled in walnut media until all the lacquer was off. With this many failures to eject, it seems clear to me that it is better to leave it on. YMMV but as for me, it's staying on from now on. I also tried an identical load but changed the primers to see if there was a speed difference. Chrony was at ~7ft, the "Avg" & "St Dev" are strictly for unsuppressed velocities. Here's what I got:

Can someone explain the True Blue? WTF?

I thought it was odd that sometimes the suppressor sped the bullet up & sometimes slowed it down. I was hoping for more consistency... :ponder:
For search purposes:
Powders: AutoComp, True Blue, Accurate #7, Winchester 296, Power Pistol
Bullets: 55gr Berry's BTFMJ, Hornady 60gr SP, Hornady 50gr Moly coated VMax

Post by **Esteves** » 11 May 2012, 17:58

How much attention were you paying to powder position?

Try this for each shot:
1) raise the pistol so that it is pointed straight up (and the powder flows toward the back of the cartridge)
2) slowly bring it back down for aiming, ensuring not to jostle the powder position
3) shoot

If the stdevs improve drastically using that technique then that powder is probably a poor choice.
[True Blue is a rotten choice for subs, for a number of reasons.]

Post by **Rapier1772** » 11 May 2012, 19:17

Esteves wrote:How much attention were you paying to powder position?

Zero

If I ever actually need to use a suppressor for any real reason, I'm not gonna take the extra time to tilt & carefully re-aim so as not shift the powder so why bother?

I didn't think TB was good for subs, not enough case volume - not even sure why I chose to try it this time around... :ponder: Probably doing something else & figured what the hell? But I still think it was odd - most of the shots were under 700fps (w/o suppressor) & put the suppressor on & suddenly its up to ~1000fps. I know it didn't all burn, I got peppered with gunpowder blown out of the back of the gun.

Post by **Esteves** » 11 May 2012, 19:25

Rapier1772 wrote:
Esteves wrote:How much attention were you paying to powder position?
Zero

If I ever actually need to use a suppressor for any real reason, I'm not gonna take the extra time to tilt & carefully re-aim so as not shift the powder so why bother?

You probably won't be shooting at the BG through a chrony either...

I wasn't suggesting it as a corrective action for wonky loads, it's a diagnostic.

Post by **Rapier1772** » 11 May 2012, 20:04

Esteves wrote:You probably won't be shooting at the BG through a chrony either...
I wasn't suggesting it as a corrective action for wonky loads, it's a diagnostic.

You mean you guys don't mount one to your rail & have that custom made holster for every day use? :laugh:
If its a wonky load, I won't continue to load it. I don't need to diagnose what makes it wonky.

Wonky is a fun word isn't it?
Wonky wonky wonky :laugh:

Camba · Post by **Camba** » 11 May 2012, 21:26

In my opinion (not an expert one), the 5.7x28 cartridge is so small that a rifle primer lit the entire cartridge chamber and then some, regardless of where the powder is sitting in the cartridge. It will burn it all.

Camba

Post by **blueorison** » 11 May 2012, 22:11

Camba, check your inbox.

steyr556 · Post by **steyr556** » 22 May 2012, 13:33

has anyone tried a cast 60 grain bullet with gas check with say AA #7 powder or is there a suggested load i have unique powder, titegroup, AA7 AA5, cowboy powder, ww 231, and one or two others i will have to look and edit post later.

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