dragunov, your opinion

freelienr · Post by **freelienr** » 28 Jan 2010, 20:38

Hey people, what's your thoughts on the dragunov? Good, bad, so on. Buy or don't buy.

-if you'd buy one, why and what would you look for to ensure it's all up an up. Thanks!

Post by **panzermk2** » 28 Jan 2010, 20:45

Dragunov

Well don't buy a true dragunov, but the Romanian version. The Romanian uses a short gas piston system and is more accurate. Vitaliy will be along soon to give you a detailed analysis of both of them good and bad.

freelienr · Post by **freelienr** » 28 Jan 2010, 20:58

hopefully that will include a "how to identify the real thing" right now i only now the basics of it reputation and history, anything and everything will be helpful.

Post by **jmz5** » 29 Jan 2010, 04:53

Hey Jay, I have been eying one myself. How far out have you shot these to?

freelienr · Post by **freelienr** » 29 Jan 2010, 10:20

Something else i'd like to throw into the discussion is: what is the best long range rifle for the money?
On the higher end i like to drool over the DSR-1, Arctic Warfare and Desert Tactical Arms Stealth Recon Scout, but all those would burn a very large hole in my bank account and my marriage :wall:

Post by **Cyberfly** » 29 Jan 2010, 10:49

The easiest way to tell, 'if you can afford it, it's a Romanian version'! :lmao:
I know, that's not the best way, but if you do a quick Google search, there are a LOT of Dragunov fan sites out there with a plethora of info on what to look for (in a glance).
Yeah, you'll catch a lot of other people's opinions.
From what I've gathered over the years, they're built on the same basic principle, but the Romanian version used simple shortcuts and stamped peices vs milled peices making them MUCH less expensive. Like Jay said, the Romanian made Dragunov uses a short gas piston system and a lot of shooter think they are more accurate. I think that has more to do with the barrel though, as they reportedly have a higher twist rate. Don't hold me to that, I'm just regurgitating what I've read on other forums. I've only held one Dragunov and it was Romanian. True enthusiasts don't even consider them TRUE Dragunovs. Even though to the average enthusiasts, you couldn't tell them apart. I'm sure Roma could tell you the complete history of the weapon and every pro/con and ...well, EVERYTHING about them.
I'd love to have one, but can't really justify it or afford it.
I know Hollywood likes to 'stretch' things a bit, but if you watch 'Hurt Locker', there's a scene where the EOD's are stuck in the desert with some Brits and face off against a towel head sniper with a Dragunov and them with a Barrett .50. Good scene.

Post by **blueorison** » 29 Jan 2010, 11:38

Saw that scene. The bg's sniped a couple mercs from pretty far out. Then the barrett jammed (ftfeed) from the merc's blood being in the magazine and ammo (highly doubt it would jam irl from blood, it wasn't as if it were immersed in the blood).

Buddy of mine who let me use his RFB showed me his Norinco Drugunov, if you ask anyone who has one, they are scary accurate. However, I friggin sure as heck expect any gun that friggin cumbersome to be accurate. I will admit it is surprising given the bbl. it has on it. It is long but bbl. length past a certain point has almost nothing to do with accuracy. The Drug is definitely past that point.

Read a range report stating this guy's drug outshot his buddy's 5k$ SR25. But then they can argue all they want, you can build a solid $2-3k AR system that can beat or be as accurate as any semi-auto rifle out there, it's more about the bbl. and handloading what works best for your rifle than what rifle you buy.
Btw, all these RECON ALPHA NINJA SNIPER RECON (SPECOPS FORCE FORCE VERSION) rifle names crack me up. Seems like they are marketing it towards 50 yr old airsofters, even though they are really good rifles.

Oops, I seem to have gotten off topic. :laugh:

Edit: Holy crepes, batman! "(0.69 x 1.03 MOA) groups at 1,000 m distance with a .338 Lapua Magnum chambered DSR 1 rifle" - wiki

Edit: Sorry, I'm pretty stupid when it comes to super cool tactical specops rifles. I pretty much don't know anything about them as I don't shoot them. I didn't know they were bolt action, I had to google them to find out. I guess my semiauto comment doesn't apply; since these rifles are all bolt, I DON'T understand why people buy them for this much money... it's not like it's something new that bolt actions were this accurate. Seems to me like they just reinvented the wheel and painted it white to quote tdevince. "OMG BOLT ACTION WITH RAILS? OMGOMGOGM" < true to life specops operator I met at walmart

Post by **Rapier1772** » 29 Jan 2010, 11:50

freelienr wrote:Something else i'd like to throw into the discussion is: what is the best long range rifle for the money?
On the higher end i like to drool over the DSR-1, Arctic Warfare and Desert Tactical Arms Stealth Recon Scout, but all those would burn a very large hole in my bank account and my marriage :wall:

From what I have read - do not get the DSR-1 unless you are buying art :laugh: It shoots as good as it looks but rumor has it that the recon scout is just as good & about half the price. (But still aint cheap)

Post by **Cyberfly** » 29 Jan 2010, 12:10

Unless you are shooting at gawd-awful lengths (and I mean .50 caliber- 3/4 to a mile here...and then you'd better be a world class shooter) I'd say just about any good 7MM magnum or .30 caliber hunting rifle will work as well.
I know, I know...not the answer you were really looking for. It doesn't have the 'cool factor', but a good hunting rifle is basically a sniper rifle for four legged victims. :ponder:

Post by **blueorison** » 29 Jan 2010, 12:17

Cyberfly wrote:Unless you are shooting at gawd-awful lengths (and I mean .50 caliber- 3/4 to a mile here...and then you'd better be a world class shooter) I'd say just about any good 7MM magnum or .30 caliber hunting rifle will work as well.
I know, I know...not the answer you were really looking for. It doesn't have the 'cool factor', but a good hunting rifle is basically a sniper rifle for four legged victims. :ponder:

Honestly. Also 6mm.

warning: don't watch this review on the DSR if you don't want to laugh your butt off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfYPcuCcUzY" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

freelienr · Post by **freelienr** » 29 Jan 2010, 12:19

Rapier1772 wrote: From what I have read - do not get the DSR-1 unless you are buying art :laugh: It shoots as good as it looks but rumor has it that the recon scout is just as good & about half the price. (But still aint cheap)

can't argue with that. Wish i could have the DTA-SRS (good gracious it's still a long title ), but like i said. Those are drool guns :drool: , won't ever get one.

VITALIY · Post by **VITALIY** » 30 Jan 2010, 00:20

panzermk2 wrote:Dragunov

Well don't buy a true dragunov, but the Romanian version. The Romanian uses a short gas piston system and is more accurate. Vitaliy will be along soon to give you a detailed analysis of both of them good and bad.

Jay, it's actualy other way around, the original dragunov and it's chineese clone's use a variation of a gas trap system, to keep the hot gas out and away from the reseaver. Romanian and other soviet block versions are no more than a variation of ak47 that shoot bigger round. All true dragunov sniper rifle family rifles, that have being legaly imported in to US have being modifyed per BUTFE regulation's, so that they have their battery sear(simular to 1st gen. ps90) removed, and are dangerus. They do have a spring loaded firing pin, but that is not enough to prevent the rifle from firing out of battery.
A good dragunov will set you back around $4500, to overpriced.
IMHO, if you have 3-5k to invest in good .308 and up semi auto presision rifle, there are plenty on market, that will give the dragunov a run for it's money.

PS: I bet, if one will find a way to legaly import a high end AR10 type SPR in to Russia, he'd be barryed with ofers to trade it for 3 original drag's :laugh:

Post by **panzermk2** » 30 Jan 2010, 11:11

See I told you so, Vitaliy would be along soon to straighten ME out :laugh:

freelienr · Post by **freelienr** » 30 Jan 2010, 14:35

Hm, the one i saw at a local gun shop was listed at $1100. It "looked" like the SVD or NDM-86 (basing this off the styling of the wood parts on the rifle). I didn't handle it or anything so i don't have a closer inspection to go from, did have a scope on it as well.

Vitaliy, you said a good Dragunov should set a person back over 4k, so is this a crazy good deal: jump on it if a person has the funds, or is it a cheaper version thus the lower price and shouldn't bother? What are some indicators and signs to look for if I go back and give this rifle a closer look to determine if it's the real deal?

Please, an indicator other than an orange ring around the muzzle to tell its airsoft :lmao:

VITALIY · Post by **VITALIY** » 30 Jan 2010, 15:34

Judging by the price, it wos an overpriced romanian PSL

. You can find one for $700 -+$50. The majority of them are ok plinkers, about 3"-8" at 100 yards. Tho i've never owened one, there are rumors of some of them shooting "subMOA", wich i found hard to belive. Of the top of my head, one can look at the fire sellector, and if it is straight like AK, than, it,s a romak; psl or yugo(AK clones) , SVD and it's clones have a curved sellector.

freelienr · Post by **freelienr** » 30 Jan 2010, 15:42

Alrighty, that's atleast something to go by. I'll see if i can get any pictures and post them here to get more feedback. Thanks!

freelienr · Post by **freelienr** » 31 Jan 2010, 16:06

Got a closer look at it. It is the Romanian PSL at the shop. Ah well, thanks for everyones feed back.

-D

TackKS · Post by **TackKS** » 31 Jan 2010, 19:49

If a semi-auto 'long-range' gun is what you are hunting, why not go with an M1a and scope it?

freelienr · Post by **freelienr** » 31 Jan 2010, 20:37

I was curious on learning more about it since i saw one at a local shop. You do have to admit they look cool. To which Fly already had some very true words about:

Cyberfly wrote:Unless you are shooting at gawd-awful lengths (and I mean .50 caliber- 3/4 to a mile here...and then you'd better be a world class shooter) I'd say just about any good 7MM magnum or .30 caliber hunting rifle will work as well.
I know, I know...not the answer you were really looking for. It doesn't have the 'cool factor', but a good hunting rifle is basically a sniper rifle for four legged victims. :ponder:

Wanted to make sure a gun people out there are willing to drop 4k on didn't walk right by me for a fraction of the regular price.
I have a New England Firearms crack stock .243 for hunting the four legged critters, but it would be nice to have something with more than one shot before you reload. TrakKS, you recommend the M1a for a semi auto long range rifle, I don't know much about it, just read a few reviews.

I wouldn't mind also hearing peoples thoughts are on what the best long range, semi-auto rifle is. My wife won't let me run out and get guns

but it would be good to know for future possibilities, or if a great deal crops up I won't let it pass by because I don't know enough about it to jump on it.

Post by **panzermk2** » 31 Jan 2010, 20:44

Because the Dragunov LOOKS WAY COOLER.

TackKS · Post by **TackKS** » 31 Jan 2010, 20:55

panzermk2 wrote:Because the Dragunov LOOKS WAY COOLER.

Cooler than a scoped M1a??? HA, Never!

Post by **panzermk2** » 31 Jan 2010, 21:00

Yes it does. While the M1a is nice like the girl next door, the Dragunov is a mysterious sexy foreigner .

freelienr · Post by **freelienr** » 31 Jan 2010, 21:04

panzermk2 wrote:Yes it does. While the M1a is nice like the girl next door, the Dragunov is a mysterious sexy foreigner .

:lmao: too true Panzer.

I have started yet another thread where I am seeking your opinions on rifles viewtopic.php?f=27&t=6866" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Everyones thoughts are welcome

TackKS · Post by **TackKS** » 01 Feb 2010, 07:59

panzermk2 wrote:Yes it does. While the M1a is nice like the girl next door, the Dragunov is a mysterious sexy foreigner .

Heck, I am married to a sexy foreigner...... she might shoot me if I looked at another.

murphies_finest · Post by **murphies_finest** » 01 Feb 2010, 13:39

The Romanians I have worked with thought very highly of the PSL but their first hand experience is that the scope that is issued with it is garbage, while various dealers at the gunshow will tell you the rifle is garbage. So its user opinion, I would buy the PSL and put the "better" optic on (beauty is in the eye of the beholder).

VITALIY · Post by **VITALIY** » 01 Feb 2010, 14:28

Klinka werehouse has got some realy good russian dragunov scopes, starting with old surplus, to, up to date.
The trick with PSL is to find a good bbl, that hasn't being shot out. I 've being looking for one, for a wile, but, no luck with finding a keeper.
+1 on look's, :drool:

murphies_finest · Post by **murphies_finest** » 01 Feb 2010, 14:30

VITALIY wrote:Klinka werehouse has got some realy good russian dragunov scopes, starting with old surplus, to, up to date.
The trick with PSL is to find a good bbl, that hasn't being shot out. I 've being looking for one, for a wile, but, no luck with finding a keeper.
+1 on look's, :drool:

how can you tell if the barrel has been shot out?

ynoty3k · Post by **ynoty3k** » 01 Feb 2010, 15:05

the rifling is shit, its not bright, etc etc etc. I'm sure there are some more specific tells, but those'd be my guess.

VITALIY · Post by **VITALIY** » 01 Feb 2010, 16:12

The rifling is rounded of on the edges, is a good tell for a shot out bbl.

Post by **Esteves** » 01 Feb 2010, 18:05

murphies_finest wrote:how can you tell if the barrel has been shot out?

It hits where you're not aiming on the first shot. It hits another place you're not aiming on the next. To be fair, there are multiple reasons why this might result...

Post by **blueorison** » 01 Feb 2010, 21:17

VITALIY wrote:The rifling is rounded of on the edges, is a good tell for a shot out bbl.

:agree:

You want the rifling to be sharp and edged, not worn. If you don't have access to a bore light or bore scope at the moment, take a look at the crown.

warlokk08 · Post by **warlokk08** » 06 Feb 2010, 11:16

One of the cheapest "long range" rifles I have found is the Remington 700 Police I believe it is called. It is sweet ! It's chambered in .338 Lapua which is capable of reaching out 1500-1800 yards, so they say. Black synthetic stock by HS Precision I think. There are a few on Gunbroker for around $1500. It will be the next rifle I buy besides a little Sig .22 i'm looking at. That with a nice Nightforce (in my dreams), or any decent scope should be a tack driver. I think it has a 20" barrel. Definitely worth checking out.

Josh

tombirdman · Post by **tombirdman** » 06 Feb 2010, 13:50

freelienr wrote:I was curious on learning more about it since i saw one at a local shop. You do have to admit they look cool. To which Fly already had some very true words about:
Cyberfly wrote:Unless you are shooting at gawd-awful lengths (and I mean .50 caliber- 3/4 to a mile here...and then you'd better be a world class shooter) I'd say just about any good 7MM magnum or .30 caliber hunting rifle will work as well.
I know, I know...not the answer you were really looking for. It doesn't have the 'cool factor', but a good hunting rifle is basically a sniper rifle for four legged victims. :ponder:
Wanted to make sure a gun people out there are willing to drop 4k on didn't walk right by me for a fraction of the regular price.
I have a New England Firearms crack stock .243 for hunting the four legged critters, but it would be nice to have something with more than one shot before you reload. TrakKS, you recommend the M1a for a semi auto long range rifle, I don't know much about it, just read a few reviews.

I wouldn't mind also hearing peoples thoughts are on what the best long range, semi-auto rifle is. My wife won't let me run out and get guns but it would be good to know for future possibilities, or if a great deal crops up I won't let it pass by because I don't know enough about it to jump on it.

.

That kind of depends on what you want to spend and what you want? One of of the best is one of the newest, the "FN AR" = sub MOA about 1/2 MOA with good ammo. Also uses up to 20rd magazines and I think, 5s and 10s also. I have an M1A supermatch, to heavy to hunt with but accurate, no more than the FN AR. Another that I am really found of is my DSA SA58. I have it set up with a mil dot 10x Hensoldt sniper scope. It works great!

I think for hunting and target shooting probably an FN AR, Winchester, I think, is offering the same gun in camo. FN now owns Winchester.

Go to the FN USA website and look it up. Also just type in FNAR on the internet search. I think you will be pleasantly surprized! Law enforcement uses it because it is as accurate as any bolt action sniper rifle. I am not just saying that, it is a fact ! Of course the gun is only as good as the ammunition you put in it

Tom

Tomac · Post by **Tomac** » 17 Feb 2010, 05:19

A Finnish sniper claims the PSL (Romak-3 when I owned one) and Dragunov in 7.62x54 have the same accuracy when using the same ammo. However, true lightweight (appx 150gr) "match" ammo doesn't exist for the 7.62x54 (the Russian 7N1 load for the Dragunov is much better than ball ammo but still isn't true match ammo).
However, the Norinco NDM-86 Dragunov in .308 is *far* more accurate when using 168gr match ammo than you'd expect from a 20yr-old copy of a 50yr-old semi-auto chromed-bore design.
My personal best 3-shot ctc group at 100yds is .24", my best 4-shot ctc at 100yds is .44" and my best 3-shot ctc at 500m is 4.5" using a cheap Russian 8x scope.
I rapid-fired 20 shots (no more than 4 sec between shots) at a std B27 silhouette target at 900m and achieved a 50% hit rate (all the missed shots were just off-target to the left due to a very slight crosswind I was unaware of).
The *only* reason I no longer own my NDM's is because I like to shoot and there are *no* spare parts available. If something breaks or wears out your only hope is to find someone who can custom-make the part otherwise you're left with a very beautiful paperweight.
Should I ever win the lottery there *will* be NDM's in my future again!

Tomac

sabotteur · Post by **sabotteur** » 17 Feb 2010, 07:52

I've been meaning to add my two cents to this thread for a while now....but as usual have been swamped, so here it is.

The PSL-54R, or as mine is called a ROMAK 3 was my 2nd purchase after my original PS90 when I started my firearms collection. I bought an older TGI import off a dentist down in FL who used it for hunting. It came with a russian 4x PSOP scope and a 5 round mag that was serialized to the gun.

This is by far one of my favorite shooters. As mentioned above, she is a sexy looking gun. The contrast of the wood with the metal gives it a really nice visual appeal and the dragunov style stock goes a long way to maintaining this appeal.

As for accuracy, my wife zeroed this in with S&B 135 grain soft points at 100 yards and was getting right at 1 MOA with the 4x scope. With some russian surplus light ball 120 grain I was also shooting 1x MOA at 100 yards.

The recoil on these is suprisingly light. I'd say it is greater that that of an AR, but less than most of my .308 platforms. I do remember reading on Dragunov.net that you shouldn't use the heavy ball ammo with these, and thus I've never fooled with it. I originally had wanted to buy up a few cases of the Russian 7N1 snipper stuff when they flooded the market with it back in 2006-7 but looking back I'm glad I never did.

The only negative I have on the rifle is that I did try to upgrade the scope. I bought a 8x fixed PSOP from http://www.kalinkaoptics.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; but the paralax was so out of sync that we could never get it to properly align with the barrel. I thought of buying another one but honestly don't see much of a need. My original scope is more than sufficient.

Now, as for the new ones that are being sold today through Century.....

I've sold about 10 of these over the past 6 months. All in all they vary in their condition. Some come looking almost brand new, others look like they were packed away for storage by a 6 year old. Some of the stocks come cracked, or others will come with huge stains from where globs of cosmoline have soaked through and ruined the wood. The receivers all look ok, but we've seen one where the magazines shipped with the gun wouldn't properly fit in the receiver. I'd say of the 10 we have had, I would have personally been willing to buy 7 of them, where as the other 3 weren't worthy of my collection.

Becarefull if your in the market for one. Make sure you see it in person before buying. These are ones you don't want to buy off of gunbroker. The boxes that Century ships them in are made out of tissue paper. The scope routinely will scrape the finish on the receiver or the barrel as it just bounces around in the box. We've received two where the scope cover has had holes in the fabric.

All in all though, I still think they are great guns and with a retail price now of $650-750 (we sell them for $650) you can't go wrong. The other positive thing I will say is if you get one that is defective (non-cosmetically) Century has an excellent returns department for either repairing or replacing your firearm. You just pay the shipping to get the original back to them.

We also have the 4x mags and pouches for these for $110 per set. The pouches are brand new never issued and most of the mags appear the same.

FiveseveNForum.com

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