SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by blueorison » 03 Mar 2011, 09:32

I see physicality and energies being argued;

Reese; good points have been brought up - we shouldn't all agree. Panzer brought up those points to highlight the characteristics and capabilities of the round instead of focusing purely on the energy and weight characteristics.

You can have your opinion! That's the great thing; discussion and enlightenment is encouraged. There is nothing wrong with that :)
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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by panzermk2 » 03 Mar 2011, 11:08

Reese706 wrote:l. Reason i was thinking of going to 357 sig as an secondary gun to my 5.7, is i can get that power in a subcompact. Wheres the subcompact for 5.7 ?
That is the biggest short fall of the FsN no compact. When I want a compact I go with my 10mm 3.5inch Witness loaded with my 165gr JHP 1270 fps 591 ft. lbs energy.

I can tell you yo one of the things on a very fare back burner is a solid Aluminum FsN frame from EA. Along with this some form of compact if we can make it work.
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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by Reese706 » 27 Mar 2011, 06:20

the problem with the FSN platform is it seems it needs a lot more barrel to get the 400 ftlbs of energy it maxes out at. Good platform but i think they should have made the case maybe slighly taller to 30 mm and slighly fatter to get more power out of it. How much m energy would it make in a 3.5 or 4 inch barrel i don't know but it would be probly better than what you can get now. The current ammo maxes out at 400 ftlbs now in the 5 inch barrel so if they could have gotten it up to 500 ftlbs or so i think people would have less scutiny of the round. I've shot a few animals down here in Georgia with the round and i have to say that while shot placement is important with any round its even more so with 5.7. I had to shoot armadillos multiple times to kill or even put it down. So gel tests and shooting pieces of meat don't impress me much. Glad i live out in country where i can shoot live animals and see for myself what these calibers do in actual iving things.

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by Buffman » 27 Mar 2011, 08:16

But many know energy(ft lbs) doesn't wound.. We've seen people take Hogs with a single shot of SS197SR. How tough is that dermal bone armor on an Armadillo?

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by Reese706 » 27 Mar 2011, 09:02

Buffman wrote:But many know energy(ft lbs) doesn't wound.. We've seen people take Hogs with a single shot of SS197SR. How tough is that dermal bone armor on an Armadillo?
So lack of energy does wound? if the bullet doesnt have enough speed how can it wound? The bullets for the SS 197 are orignally made for .223 at 3000fps plus so if you lower the velocity common sense would tell you it won't expand and fragment as violently.. i think some of you on here are being a littlte disengenious or drinking the fn koolaid about the 5.7. Its an ok round but i still think its lacking in power. The V-max bullet in the ss197 just starts to expand at 1600 fps which is very near the max velocity of the cartrigde. The Ea protector only gets slightly higher velocity. I've seen the posts of people showing Pics of pigs they've shot also but theres no video showing how fast and how many shots it took to put one down with factory or EA round. ALL of the ones i saw were head shots..a .22 lr can put something down with a headshot. In a SD scenario a head shot is what you'd want but not easily acheived especially if the attacker is shooting back.

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by jgreenberg01 » 27 Mar 2011, 10:09

Ugh, this is like deja vu all over again...
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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by panzermk2 » 27 Mar 2011, 12:34

Reese706 wrote:
Buffman wrote:But many know energy(ft lbs) doesn't wound.. We've seen people take Hogs with a single shot of SS197SR. How tough is that dermal bone armor on an Armadillo?
So lack of energy does wound? if the bullet doesnt have enough speed how can it wound?
The bullets for the SS 197 are orignally made for .223 at 3000fps plus so if you lower the velocity common sense would tell you it won't expand and fragment as violently..
Sorry but the V-max was designed to open and work at lower velocities. All you have to do is go the Hornady's website and you can read it for your self.

You just don't know what your talking about. At 300 yards that V-max is not going 3000fps. The bullets where designed to operate at the lower velocities encountered at that range. This image is from Nosler's own website, showing how their 50gr Ballistic Silvertip bullets perform that we use in our Pro2.

EA ProtecTOR II!

Using Combined Technology's 50gr Ballistic Silvertip Bullet.


FsN 1790 fps 356 ft.lbs
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Also to even come close to giving your argument ANY merit you would have to ignore the years of tests and data published on just this one thread alone,

Side by Side comparison including dissection videos of bone in pork shoulders can be found here between our 10mm+P 165JHP and our 5.7 rounds if you look. You will see the damage rendered by both rounds aren't discernible from each other.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8623" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also there are bullets specifically made for the 5.7x28 from FN and EA
Reese706 wrote: i think some of you on here are being a littlte disengenious or drinking the fn koolaid about the 5.7. Its an ok round but i still think its lacking in power. The V-max bullet in the ss197 just starts to expand at 1600 fps which is very near the max velocity of the cartrigde. The Ea protector only gets slightly higher velocity. I've seen the posts of people showing Pics of pigs they've shot also but theres no video showing how fast and how many shots it took to put one down with factory or EA round.
Talk about a koolaid drinker, the vids ARE up of pigs getting shot and killed.
Reese706 wrote: ALL of the ones i saw were head shots..a .22 lr can put something down with a headshot. In a SD scenario a head shot is what you'd want but not easily acheived especially if the attacker is shooting back.
Again talk about koolaid drinking. You really have to work hard to ignore all the data posted on just the one thread above to even remotely believe your argument.

Your either a fool or a troll.
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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by Buffman » 27 Mar 2011, 14:29

Reese706 wrote:
Buffman wrote:But many know energy(ft lbs) doesn't wound.. We've seen people take Hogs with a single shot of SS197SR. How tough is that dermal bone armor on an Armadillo?
So lack of energy does wound? if the bullet doesnt have enough speed how can it wound? The bullets for the SS 197 are orignally made for .223 at 3000fps plus so if you lower the velocity common sense would tell you it won't expand and fragment as violently.. i think some of you on here are being a littlte disengenious or drinking the fn koolaid about the 5.7. Its an ok round but i still think its lacking in power. The V-max bullet in the ss197 just starts to expand at 1600 fps which is very near the max velocity of the cartrigde. The Ea protector only gets slightly higher velocity. I've seen the posts of people showing Pics of pigs they've shot also but theres no video showing how fast and how many shots it took to put one down with factory or EA round. ALL of the ones i saw were head shots..a .22 lr can put something down with a headshot. In a SD scenario a head shot is what you'd want but not easily acheived especially if the attacker is shooting back.

I didn't say that. But certainly some of those super high speed frangible ExtremeShock rounds don't wound very well now do they :) IIRC the last person I recall thought they said they took a hog with SS197SR behind it's shoulder one shot, and then it went down. Let Me try to find it. I'm not drinking any koolaid. I'm not claiming the 5.7 the be all there is to be cartridge..

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by Reese706 » 27 Mar 2011, 17:03

First off to panzer theres nothing you could tell me that i wouldn't take with a grain of salt because you have a financial interest in hyping this round. I wouldn't believe anything you say anymore than i would a used car dealer..lol. Second you obviously didn't pay attention to what i wrote because you got it wrong. I already said the Hornady V-max operates at 1600 fps and up ...you come up saying i said it can't operate at velocity and plus you start talking about another brand of bullet. If it just starts to expand at 1600fps and the round its being fired in just barely gets over that window its of course not going to expand as explosively. Please don't insult my intelligence. Also to Buffman.. people who actually have killed things also know theres a difference between wounding something and killing something quickly. I can shoot you with something that leaves a gruesome superficial wound but it won't put you down. And what Vids of pigs getting shot? I saw one grainy vid of a pig that took several shots . The vid was too short and unclear make much of it. Why wasn't the dead pig examined upclose to show how many shots it took to put it down? It seems anyone considered a troll on this forum if they don't have 100% positive things to say about the round. Guess ill just be a troll then ..i call it how i see it not how others would like me to. I'm speaking from actual testing on the round in living animals with my own eyes so nothing anyone can tell me different not even FNH. Like i said before i picked the Fnh because i liked lot of its qualities and still do just one dept i think its lacking and thats its stopping power. Knowing what i know now if in a SD situation i'd go for a head shot if possible. If a body shot was all i could get i'd unload in the chest area

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by panzermk2 » 27 Mar 2011, 18:36

Reese706 wrote:First off to panzer theres nothing you could tell me that i wouldn't take with a grain of salt because you have a financial interest in hyping this round. I wouldn't believe anything you say anymore than i would a used car dealer..lol.


Surprised it took you so long to to say I am lying and faked all my test results to make a buck. Plus I bribed all the third party people who have tested my ammo to generate fake results also
Cool then I faked all my tests. Well I can't wait to see what and how you twist things when Brass Fetcher gets done and makes public their test results.
Reese706 wrote: Second you obviously didn't pay attention to what i wrote because you got it wrong. I already said the Hornady V-max operates at 1600 fps and up ...you come up saying i said it can't operate at velocity and plus you start talking about another brand of bullet. If it just starts to expand at 1600fps and the round its being fired in just barely gets over that window its of course not going to expand as explosively. Please don't insult my intelligence. Also to Buffman.. people who actually have killed things also know theres a difference between wounding something and killing something quickly.


You mean like those dead hogs? The V-max does the same thing also I just happened to have a pic. Of course you don't challenge the pic or those facts.
I once shot the entire hind quarter off a deer. It turned and bolted as I pulled the trigger. I cit it almost in half. It ran 120 yards before dropping missing half of it's self. Does this mean the Weatherby .378 is a poor stopper?

Reese706 wrote: I can shoot you with something that leaves a gruesome superficial wound but it won't put you down.


Did you completely ignore those pork shoulder vids? Of course you did and you still won't address them because it would destroy your argument.
No Wait a minute you did it must have fallen under the faked claim.
Reese706 wrote: And what Vids of pigs getting shot? I saw one grainy vid of a pig that took several shots . The vid was too short and unclear make much of it. Why wasn't the dead pig examined upclose to show how many shots it took to put it down?


According to the person who shot the vid it was one shot. Are they lying now also?
WOW that's a lot of people that have to be lying. You a Truther also?
Reese706 wrote: It seems anyone considered a troll on this forum if they don't have 100% positive things to say about the round. Guess ill just be a troll then .


No people who ignore facts to so they can continue to believe the own built up misconceptions and then try every imaginable angle to justify the beliefs as facts.
Reese706 wrote: .i call it how i see it not how others would like me to. I'm speaking from actual testing on the round in living animals with my own eyes so nothing anyone can tell me different not even FNH. Like i said before i picked the Fnh because i liked lot of its qualities and still do just one dept i think its lacking and thats its stopping power. Knowing what i know now if in a SD situation i'd go for a head shot if possible. If a body shot was all i could get i'd unload in the chest area

Bull I don't think you have ever shot any living thing with the Fsn. Prove it.
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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by Reese706 » 27 Mar 2011, 19:16

why should i have to prove anything you guys are the ones acting like its better than every handgun caliber. with all this bs about pork shoulders tests and videos of shooting pigs with i only saw one of and was'nt impressed by. Since when did shooting a 10 lb porkshoulder mean a round is an effecient killer? Why would i say i like the gun and round on all but one area unless i saw it as fact? If i had something tottally against it i would have been sold my gun which i had for several years now and carry daily

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by flyingirish04 » 27 Mar 2011, 19:28

Listen man, I really don't want to sound like a jerk to you. However, it does appear like you are a faker with your whole 'stopping power' mantra. And you can't spell worth a crap, which is often what I see on BARFcom from guys who pretend to be SOF, and that generally don't have a clue what happens when bullet meets flesh, much less how to spell WASN'T r TOTALLY.

Talk with the FBI. Pork shoulders are better than ballistic gelatin in tell how a projectile acts in a body on impact.

It is a fact that anything that makes a wound channel like the FsN WILL PUT YOU DOWN. Hydrostatic and Capillary shock caused by rounds like it will put a guy down. The only thing that will do it better is a high power rifle, or possibly a Extreme Magnum Caliber. There is a reason why gun grabbers hate this pistol. It is a supreme SD weapon for a variety of situations.
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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by N4TAB-Tom » 27 Mar 2011, 19:33

FLUSH!!!!!

Note Coriolis effect................

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by N4TAB-Tom » 27 Mar 2011, 19:38

Waiting to see if we need a second pull of the chain.....sometime it takes two flushes............

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by f3rr37 » 27 Mar 2011, 19:54

Reese706 wrote:why should i have to prove anything you guys are the ones acting like its better than every handgun caliber. with all this bs about pork shoulders tests and videos of shooting pigs with i only saw one of and was'nt impressed by. Since when did shooting a 10 lb porkshoulder mean a round is an effecient killer? Why would i say i like the gun and round on all but one area unless i saw it as fact? If i had something tottally against it i would have been sold my gun which i had for several years now and carry daily
Please do not come here and crap all over the place. If you wish to debate, debate with some facts, don't insist on the people here on proving things when you yourself won't offer up any real proof that says otherwise.

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by panzermk2 » 27 Mar 2011, 20:36

Of course he can't offer up the proof he claims. All he can do is try to change the argument back without backing up any of his claims.

If you really looked you would see many videos.

Prove what you say or your nothing but a lying troll. I don't think you have ever killed or shot anything greater then an insect.
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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by Buffman » 27 Mar 2011, 21:32

I'd like to know how hard an armadillo's shell really is. It's bone after all.

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by panzermk2 » 27 Mar 2011, 21:36

It can jack up your alignment. I don't know why they are there since they are normally thought of as arid region critters but they are all over Michigan's upper and middle lower portion. Used to hit them on the highway all the time.
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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by Reese706 » 28 Mar 2011, 04:20

[quote="flyingirish04"]Listen man, I really don't want to sound like a jerk to you. However, it does appear like you are a faker with your whole 'stopping power' mantra. And you can't spell worth a crap, which is often what I see on BARFcom from guys who pretend to be SOF, and that generally don't have a clue what happens when bullet meets flesh, much less how to spell WASN'T r TOTALLY.

Talk with the FBI. Pork shoulders are better than ballistic gelatin in tell how a projectile acts in a body on impact.

It is a fact that anything that makes a wound channel like the FsN WILL PUT YOU DOWN. Hydrostatic and Capillary shock caused by rounds like it will put a guy down. The only thing that will do it better is a high power rifle, or possibly a Extreme Magnum Caliber. There is a reason why gun grabbers hate this pistol. It is a supreme SD weapon for a variety of situations.[/quotc So now you getting mad so you want insult me on my spelling? As if you've never typed an error? It was late and i was rushing to get to sleep. And to address the rest of what you said and the others and i'm done. Obviously you wasn't paying attention all this time because i said pork shoulders and gel tests mean little to ME. Now if you or this Panzer guy or anyone else want make the conclusion that shooting an dead piece of meat means the 5.7 is better than another service round in stopping go ahead. But some of us don't believe the hype. And its even more apparent that its hype. Because why would people who claim to be unbiased and not defending its shortcomings because of financial interests get so defensive over something made by a company their not a part of? Any other gun forum i've been on people voice their criticisms and they don't get no where near the flack as here . Oh yeah and which is it? Panzer says his rounds are identical to 10mm in the pork test..now you saying only thing comes close is high power rifle rounds. Y'all are full of it..and i'm done

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by jgreenberg01 » 28 Mar 2011, 05:03

Reese706: First of all, I think he said your spelling is less than excellent because it is pretty ugly (correct me if I'm wrong Irish). It's not just the spelling, but the grammar too - your posts are simply hard to read.

Second, your content is inflammatory - you criticize and even question forum members' integrity while offering only opinions as opposed to facts. I think that you will find people here more than willing to enter into a friendly debate with anyone of a differing opinion as long as they are reasonable. You sir might want to dial it back a bit and play a little nicer and your stay might be a more pleasant one...
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