SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by ynoty3k » 24 Jan 2011, 16:19

Sounds like a good deal, I dunno just not that appealing to me.

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by DAUG » 25 Jan 2011, 12:14

Hmmmmm, interesting and maybe worth a look.

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by Reese706 » 09 Feb 2011, 15:53

just doesn't excite me that much from the initial nfo. Same balistics as 5.7 with lower capacity. Only thing i like so far is that it fits in a 1911 locked breech i assume. If the round turns out to be able to able to beat five seven ballistics i'll maybe get one.

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by Buffman » 09 Feb 2011, 16:00

yeah after some reading, you're going to see 1950 fps from a 40gr loading for practice and 2050 fps from their SD ammo. We already have EA stuff that smokes that, with a lot better bullet choices. One of their sites mentioned the bullet is custom, so I wonder what one will be able to load up into the .22 TCM?

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by panzermk2 » 09 Feb 2011, 19:15

Buffman wrote:yeah after some reading, you're going to see 1950 fps from a 40gr loading for practice and 2050 fps from their SD ammo. We already have EA stuff that smokes that, with a lot better bullet choices. One of their sites mentioned the bullet is custom, so I wonder what one will be able to load up into the .22 TCM?
If the FsN had a 5.5 inch barrel like their 1911 based gun our ProtecTOR would be going over 2,100fps.
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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by iFire » 09 Feb 2011, 21:49

Buffman wrote:yeah after some reading, you're going to see 1950 fps from a 40gr loading for practice and 2050 fps from their SD ammo. We already have EA stuff that smokes that, with a lot better bullet choices. One of their sites mentioned the bullet is custom, so I wonder what one will be able to load up into the .22 TCM?
Basically nothing... Exactly why I don't and won't like it... No bullet choices, except their short, pudgy little custom bullet...

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by panzermk2 » 10 Feb 2011, 11:09

I noticed that. With a 1911 frame your really limited in your bullet choices due to very short OAL.

Although lately I must admit to be looking at loading the 4.6x30
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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by blueorison » 10 Feb 2011, 13:56

...for the Tokarev; they just came out with a barrel conversion 1911 kit for 9mm and .38 super 1911's. Requires minor fitting.

I've always wanted a Tok. Will probably get a CZ, though; don't see the point in getting a 9mm or .38 super unless you're shooting open class.
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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by fooschnickens » 10 Feb 2011, 15:09

Toks are so fun.

AND CHEAP

My word are they cheap. Last time I went out with my buddy to shoot his he BEGGED me to shoot it more so he would have room in his safe for different ammo. :laugh:
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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by Reese706 » 02 Mar 2011, 10:28

4.6 x 30 excites me even less. .22 cal is small enough caliber wise in my opinion...why go any smaller? If anything i'd go up to .30 cal. Thats why i'm rethinking .357 sig. Shyt if a .30 cal torarev can push a 86 grain bullt to 1500 -1600fps. A more modern .357 sig can match that or beat that with a .355 cal bullet and still fit in a modern pocket glock. After thinking more about it i was thinking in a carbine like a ps90 it would blow the 5.7 out the water. 5.7 is pretty wimpy honestly for the price...only 600 ftlbs out a 16inch barrel. If the tokarev round can penetrate the way it does a .357 sig loaded max with a 90 grain should perform as well or better possibly. Theres a company i buy ammo for even offers a Barnes 80 grain jhp that gets 1600 fps out a 3.5 inch barrel.

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by PainKillaX » 02 Mar 2011, 10:30

To be fair, muzzle energy cannot be the only measure of a weapons worth. When looking at the P90/PS90 it is important to consider weight, ergonomics, recoil, capacity, and accuracy as well.

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by Reese706 » 02 Mar 2011, 10:43

PainKillaX wrote:To be fair, muzzle energy cannot be the only measure of a weapons worth. When looking at the P90/PS90 it is important to consider weight, ergonomics, recoil, capacity, and accuracy as well.
TRue ..but i was talking more about the cartriges than the weapon. .357 sig is cheaper and easier to get than 5.7x28. Also it can be reloaded easier and components are readily avaible. Sure its not going to have the low recoil of five seven or capacity but theres always a trade off when increasing power. Heavier recoil and lower mag capacity never stopped me from liking my .45..lol

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by PainKillaX » 02 Mar 2011, 10:49

Reese706 wrote:
PainKillaX wrote:To be fair, muzzle energy cannot be the only measure of a weapons worth. When looking at the P90/PS90 it is important to consider weight, ergonomics, recoil, capacity, and accuracy as well.
TRue ..but i was talking more about the cartriges than the weapon. .357 sig is cheaper and easier to get than 5.7x28. Also it can be reloaded easier and components are readily avaible. Sure its not going to have the low recoil of five seven or capacity but theres always a trade off when increasing power. Heavier recoil and lower mag capacity never stopped me from liking my .45..lol
Definitely! :thumb:

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by Buffman » 02 Mar 2011, 11:03

Reese706 wrote:4.6 x 30 excites me even less. .22 cal is small enough caliber wise in my opinion...why go any smaller? If anything i'd go up to .30 cal. Thats why i'm rethinking .357 sig. Shyt if a .30 cal torarev can push a 86 grain bullt to 1500 -1600fps. A more modern .357 sig can match that or beat that with a .355 cal bullet and still fit in a modern pocket glock. After thinking more about it i was thinking in a carbine like a ps90 it would blow the 5.7 out the water. 5.7 is pretty wimpy honestly for the price...only 600 ftlbs out a 16inch barrel. If the tokarev round can penetrate the way it does a .357 sig loaded max with a 90 grain should perform as well or better possibly. Theres a company i buy ammo for even offers a Barnes 80 grain jhp that gets 1600 fps out a 3.5 inch barrel.

.357 sig is almost $10 more per box than standard 5.7x28mm ammunition 95% of the time. I did find some S&B for $20.99 for .357 sig. Most all balastic's tests show about the same penetration as 9mm, .40S&W, and .45 ACP when comparing JHPs of the 4 calibers.

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by flyingirish04 » 02 Mar 2011, 11:21

Reese706 wrote:4.6 x 30 excites me even less. .22 cal is small enough caliber wise in my opinion...why go any smaller? If anything i'd go up to .30 cal. Thats why i'm rethinking .357 sig. Shyt if a .30 cal torarev can push a 86 grain bullt to 1500 -1600fps. A more modern .357 sig can match that or beat that with a .355 cal bullet and still fit in a modern pocket glock. After thinking more about it i was thinking in a carbine like a ps90 it would blow the 5.7 out the water. 5.7 is pretty wimpy honestly for the price...only 600 ftlbs out a 16inch barrel. If the tokarev round can penetrate the way it does a .357 sig loaded max with a 90 grain should perform as well or better possibly. Theres a company i buy ammo for even offers a Barnes 80 grain jhp that gets 1600 fps out a 3.5 inch barrel.
None of what you say is true. 357 Sig SD ammo is much more expensive the FsN ammo, and it doesn't achiever nearly the velocity. The wound channels of a 357 sig don't differ much from 40 S&W and in ballistic gel, the hydrostatic shock increase with the 5.7 is easily recognized. What company offers that round btw for the 357 Sig out of 3.5 inch barrel?? I would love to see data on it. Even if it were true, that pails in comparison to EA's rounds out of the FsN.

Don't get me wrong, the 357 Sig is a good pistol round, but I don't see it being the end all be all, especially over the 5.7. If anything, I think you should go with th 10mm if you are using your criteria.
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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by Reese706 » 02 Mar 2011, 11:41

i didn't voice my opion to get a caliber war started. But i understand some you guys are very sensitive about your beloved 5.7 which i also like. Never said any caliber was the end all be all. If you reread my post you'll see i said thereis always a trade off with any caliber. It was just my opion on what i thought might be an alternative for me..never said one was necessarily better than another. I just said it was hard to get ...yeah Ea rounds are hotter than factory but how easy is it to get ? I can order a fifty round box of Double tap for 41 bucks that gets 500 ftlbs out a subcompact or i can reload it myself. 5.7 is much harder to reload for . Plus hydrostactic shock is debateable at 5.7 speeds and muzzle energy. But your entitled to your opion like i am mines...i just think for the price and availabilty it could have more horsepower. That doesn'nt mean im saying it's worthless

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by Reese706 » 02 Mar 2011, 11:53

from the posts you guys obviously missed my points. Its cheaper when we consider the 5.7 Ea rounds vs standard .357 sig. Fnh ammo is cheaper but its so watered down to not even to come close to .357 sig ballistics. PLus if i was trying to get max penetration i would'nt use a jhp. I'd use a fmj ..isn't that what the 7.62x 25 uses to get nearly identical penetration as 5.7? out of a carbine i'm sure it could top 2000fps with a light enough bullet. Or better yet if .357sig can't, go a step up to 9x25 dillon.

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by Buffman » 02 Mar 2011, 18:29

Reese706 wrote:from the posts you guys obviously missed my points. Its cheaper when we consider the 5.7 Ea rounds vs standard .357 sig. Fnh ammo is cheaper but its so watered down to not even to come close to .357 sig ballistics. PLus if i was trying to get max penetration i would'nt use a jhp. I'd use a fmj ..isn't that what the 7.62x 25 uses to get nearly identical penetration as 5.7? out of a carbine i'm sure it could top 2000fps with a light enough bullet. Or better yet if .357sig can't, go a step up to 9x25 dillon.

7.62x25 Out penetrates 5.7 ammo in it's FMJ form. IIRC you can get 18"+ of penetration from 7.62TT. You still want expansion, not just extreme penetration..

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by panzermk2 » 02 Mar 2011, 22:46

Reese706 wrote:from the posts you guys obviously missed my points. Its cheaper when we consider the 5.7 Ea rounds vs standard .357 sig. Fnh ammo is cheaper but its so watered down to not even to come close to .357 sig ballistics. PLus if i was trying to get max penetration i would'nt use a jhp. I'd use a fmj ..isn't that what the 7.62x 25 uses to get nearly identical penetration as 5.7? out of a carbine i'm sure it could top 2000fps with a light enough bullet. Or better yet if .357sig can't, go a step up to 9x25 dillon.
So your comparing top shelf ammo price of EA vs. standard? Then complaining about the cost? When it's been shown apples to apples the .357 sig is more expensive?

Oh and as to penetration frontal area comes into play big time on this one. If you take bullets of the same weight at the same fps and one has 1/3 the frontal area it will penetrate more then the other with the greater frontal area that is easier to stop.

This is why the M1A2 tanks SABOT round fired from the 120mm barrel is a 20mm in diameter needle. Smaller frontal area gives better penetration, stabilization and RANGE. Wonder how well your .357 sig performs at 100 yards? Wonder if it will penetrate a crisat plate like the watered down factory SS190. Well I can tell you it won't. It won't at 10 yards just like the 9mm won't.


What's the BC of .357 sig?

I have some 1/8 rolled steel plate. Love to see how well the .357 won't penetrate it. The 5.7 well and still do massive tissue damage after.

I know what your thinking BS on that last one but be careful I have the videos of just that posted up already.

In fact I have some 40 Short and Weak guns. I will get a .357 sig barrel and this summer do some barrier and bone in pork shoulder tests just like I have done with the 5.7, 10mm and 45acp.

That will end the discussion very quickly.


9x25 dillon talk about over priced expensive ammo.
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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by Reese706 » 03 Mar 2011, 05:44

i wasn't really complaining i was more so making an observation that the power of top of the shelf as you say 5.7 is low even against standard .357sig once again in my opinion. Can i not have my opinon? Second i said its not a total knock to the round as i like it still and i know theres trade off with any caliber. So why everyone made this it to a big discussion about which one penetrates steel better and creates more damage afterwards than the other i don't understand? I never said anything about that but that its easier to reload and cheaper when you compare max power five seven against .357 sig. Why would i want to compare ammo that gets barely 300 ftlbs out a 5inch vs 550ftlbs out a 3.5 inch barrel. Reason i was thinking of going to 357 sig as an secondary gun to my 5.7, is i can get that power in a subcompact. Wheres the subcompact for 5.7 ?

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