SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

[panzermk2]

When is 10mm a high powered rifle round?

Here are the vids you can't seem to find or understand. As anyone can easily see the damage caused by both rounds is easily comparable with the edge going to the 5.7x28 with the pulverizing of the entire bone through out the meat.

Of course I faked these vids, I created a breed of pigs with inherently weak bone and muscle structure so I ammo would perform better when I used their shoulders for testing.




PFP into pork shoulder


10mm 165gr JHP pork shoulder,






This is about the time Reese you tell me,
1) You're really John Rambo and I have no clue.
2) You're a big time industry insider and I should watch out.
3) You where planing on buying my ammo but not now since I hurt you feelings.

All BS and all I have heard before.

[Buffman]

Any other gun forum i've been on people voice their criticisms and they don't get no where near the flack as here .

Apparently you don't belong to many gun forums. I see many criticism threads everyday (M&P vs Glock) (9mm Vs .45 ACP), and so forth on the 4-5 gun forums I'm on, and it's just like most internet arguements, lots of opinions, lots of flack, etc etc.

[VeTTeMaNC486]

I must say WOW.

This dude is a total idiot. How can gel/meat shots mean nothing to you as far as "stopping power"? That is completely stupid. If you want someone "done" and in an extremely timely fashion the only way to do it is a CNS shot or a shot to the heard or something of that sort. You either damage the area(s) or you don't. Sure they might die if shot elsewhere, but how much damage is done before then? To say gel shots and meat shots have no meaning shows how stupid you are. How is one supposed to compare rounds without compaing wound channels? In the end that is all that matters, the damage left behind (and its location). Nothing else. It is obvious that you are bias against this round and no amount of facts will "prove" this round to you. You offer NOTHING to support your claim that it is inferior other than you shot some animal with one and it lived. I shot a squirrel with my mini-30 ounce, did not hit a vital area, guess what? it didn't die. I had to shoot it again (through the neck out the other side this time ) and it was done. I guess that means 7.62x39 is a poor cartridge that has no "stopping power." I'm sure there are millions of people dead that would argue this with you if they could.

And to come on here and bash Jay speaks volumes of you. I personally do not know the man. I don't even do business with him. I've only had one order from him ever so I am not taking up for a budy or taking up for an investment or whatever you might want to say. What cannot be argued is the amount of information, testing, etc. that has been done by him and his company on this round. To try to bring his side of things into question is totally out of line. He has done more good for this round than you could ever attempt. Don't go there until you have done NEAR the tests, etc. that he has.

And, yes, your grammar is terrible. It is hard to read your posts. It is hard to take you seriously if you do not atleast make some effort at forming sentences correctly.

My opinion, this round is not the best at anything, but it is pretty dang good at everything, atleast as far as a pistol round is concerned (I don't even own a fiveseven).

[Visceral_Malice]

.... So! about this Armscor gun!

I have reloaded a lot of their 62gr .223 fmj's because they are so cheap and readily available. They are good, but not great which is what I kind of expect from this gun. If its reasonably priced with widely (and cost effective) ammo available I may eventually want to get one, especially if it does come with that 9mm barrel also.

[VeTTeMaNC486]

.... So! about this Armscor gun!

I have reloaded a lot of their 62gr .223 fmj's because they are so cheap and readily available. They are good, but not great which is what I kind of expect from this gun. If its reasonably priced with widely (and cost effective) ammo available I may eventually want to get one, especially if it does come with that 9mm barrel also.

I have played with their 55gr fmj but wasn't impressed. This gun would make a neat addition to the collection. Depends on price and pricing of the ammo.

[fooschnickens]

I think the ammo is going to be the part that makes or breaks this platform. Unless they make it substantially cheaper than 5.7 they're not going to be making many converts, if any. Hell, the only thing it's got going for it right now is that it's a 1911 clone (which, quite frankly, I'm tired of seeing. MAKE SOMETHING ORIGINAL!!).

[LK45s]

Anyone seen one in the real world yet?
Their site says:

"The .22 Micro-Magnum
Gunmaker Fred Craig is back with his all-new 22 Micro-Mag cartridge, and his red-hot 1911 Pistol! Spawned from a desire to create the next evolution in defensive-pistol performance, Craig's new Micro-Mag delivers 20 rounds of Blistering Magnum Horsepower with ultra light recoil, and an introductory starting price of only $979 "

http://atomitronx.com/products.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[69ranchero351c]

im stiil waiten till i can get one. not on centerfires website yet so im still waiting.

[VeTTeMaNC486]

Anyone seen one in the real world yet?
Their site says:

"The .22 Micro-Magnum
Gunmaker Fred Craig is back with his all-new 22 Micro-Mag cartridge, and his red-hot 1911 Pistol! Spawned from a desire to create the next evolution in defensive-pistol performance, Craig's new Micro-Mag delivers 20 rounds of Blistering Magnum Horsepower with ultra light recoil, and an introductory starting price of only $979 "

http://atomitronx.com/products.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Same capacity as the FsN, similar price, so..... the question is.. why? I was interested in the thing until I saw that price tag. No thanks, I'll get a FsN instead if I had that kind of money.

[Buffman]

Not to mention it will be heavier. There still has been no mention if their properitary bullet is needed in the cartridge to achieve those velocities, whcih are not much more than the FSN anyways..

[srt-4_jon]

http://rimfirecentral.com/forums/showth ... p?t=422791" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Looks like they hit the streets with no ammo available.

[nrv216]

I was at the local gun store the other day and had an opportunity to fondle one of these. The "educated" sales person was all too eager to show me one when I mentioned that I shoot a fiveseven. So yes, the haters are all going to jump on the .22tcm bandwagon just cause they can't afford, or don't like the fsn.

Anyway, the pistol seemed decent and like I said I only had a chance to handle one for a few minutes so I am just going to state some of my observations.

- Its freakin heavy. So I am assuming it will be really really forgiving in the recoil department. I would expect this and not be that impressed due to the fact that my fsn feels like a squirt gun and still has half (IMO) the felt recoil of most 9mm pistols I have shot.

-It’s a double stack 1911 and feels like a double stack 1911. I personally do not like that. The grip is chunky and awkward in MY hands. Once again, Compared to the fsn which holds 20 rounds, compared to the .22tcm's 18, not very impressive.

-It did not feel like a very "tight" gun. sarcasm Now I am not sure if this is just because the store reps have been racking the slide since they got it sarcasm but IMO it felt like the slide had a lot of play, like it was loose. You know that glock trick where you rack the slide with one hand? It felt like my seven year old cousin could do it with this gun. My guess is that this is due to the fact that it is a heavy slide and a low recoil cartridge. Anyway, in my opinion it gave the gun a cheaper feel and it did not have the confidence inspiring "lock up" that my fsn does.

-Sights. I am sorry but I really dislike rear sights that are solid black. Unless I am shooting white paper, I find it to be a pain in the ass. This, among other things (i.e. weight), is leading me to believe that this is designed to be a range gun only.

-Trigger. I did not really play with the trigger much because I do not like to dry fire guns that are not mine but it seemed decent for the price of the gun. Granted, I am not a trigger connoisseur, but it felt acceptable.

Overall, I see this as a fun range toy and not much else. I know many people criticize the fsn as the same thing but I think that FN's reputation and the work that Jay and Crew do at EA have proven otherwise. I do think that armscor/RIA had a good idea when they jumped on the pdw caliber pistol bandwagon, but, at least in its stock configuration, their offering would not be sitting at my bedside nor would I grab it over any of my .22lr pistols before heading to the range. ONCE AGAIN, in case anyone missed it, this is just my opinion and it is only based on my handling the gun at the local store.

nrv216

[Grantness]

I finally spotted one of these at my local shop. As I've been out of the loop for some time, I didn't have a clue that this thing even existed.

The way I see it, its a decent alternative to 5.7 if you can't afford a FsN or don't have access to quality 5.7 ammo. The 40gr 2100fps ammo was about $25 which is way better than FN civilian factory ammo and half the price of comparable EA ammo. While that's about as fast as anyone could get a 40gr 5.7 bullet, you have to keep in mind (as Jay pointed out) that the stubby bullets aren't going to fly as well as say a VMax at 100 yards. Then again, not everyone has much use for a 100+ yard pistol round. Being able to use different bullets for specific applications is another big advantage that the .22 TCM apparently lacks.

It was heavy, but I can't see how any reduction in recoil would significantly improve performance over an FsN. Accuracy has more to do with the shooter, and the 1911 platform might be better for those who are familiar with it and don't want to take the time to practice with the lighter FsN.

The adjustable sights were somewhat similar to a FsN, but the front post didn't have any kind of dot on it. That would annoy me.

Trigger wasn't bad. Crisp, light(ish), no creep. Certainly better than a stock FsN trigger.

Whether or not Im going to purchase one of these depends on whether I can a) find dies b) load longer, better bullets and c) achieve significantly superior performance over 5.7x28. If you have to use short bullets, I'd have to be able to hand load a 40gr bullet a lot faster than 2100fps to make me want to own one.

[Rapier1772]

GRANT!!! Where ya been?

Welcome back!

[Grantness]

Thanks! :cya:

[smpsmp]

I talked to a few guys at the RIA booth at recent dealer show. They ranked right with Stag Arms booth in my book, which was as low as they could get. The guys working it didn't know a thing about their product. The RIA guys were going on and on about the 22 TCM and how great it is, so I asked what grain bullets you could load, and can you use ballistic tips. Funny thing was they kept ignoring those two questions.

NRV216,
I don't think I ever recall seeing a RIA that wasn't loose. They are more of a budget gun. As far as being double stack, I had heard before that RIA was doing Para's frames, and the RIA guy mentioned something about PARA and I pretty much laughed at him at that point. I never thought someone would try and mention Para as a selling point. I walked away at that point.

[blueorison]

I finally spotted one of these at my local shop. As I've been out of the loop for some time, I didn't have a clue that this thing even existed.

The way I see it, its a decent alternative to 5.7 if you can't afford a FsN or don't have access to quality 5.7 ammo. The 40gr 2100fps ammo was about $25 which is way better than FN civilian factory ammo and half the price of comparable EA ammo. While that's about as fast as anyone could get a 40gr 5.7 bullet, you have to keep in mind (as Jay pointed out) that the stubby bullets aren't going to fly as well as say a VMax at 100 yards. Then again, not everyone has much use for a 100+ yard pistol round. Being able to use different bullets for specific applications is another big advantage that the .22 TCM apparently lacks.

It was heavy, but I can't see how any reduction in recoil would significantly improve performance over an FsN. Accuracy has more to do with the shooter, and the 1911 platform might be better for those who are familiar with it and don't want to take the time to practice with the lighter FsN.

The adjustable sights were somewhat similar to a FsN, but the front post didn't have any kind of dot on it. That would annoy me.

Trigger wasn't bad. Crisp, light(ish), no creep. Certainly better than a stock FsN trigger.

Whether or not Im going to purchase one of these depends on whether I can a) find dies b) load longer, better bullets and c) achieve significantly superior performance over 5.7x28. If you have to use short bullets, I'd have to be able to hand load a 40gr bullet a lot faster than 2100fps to make me want to own one.

GRANT. :cya:

[panzermk2]

I finally spotted one of these at my local shop. As I've been out of the loop for some time, I didn't have a clue that this thing even existed.

The way I see it, its a decent alternative to 5.7 if you can't afford a FsN or don't have access to quality 5.7 ammo. The 40gr 2100fps ammo was about $25 which is way better than FN civilian factory ammo and half the price of comparable EA ammo. While that's about as fast as anyone could get a 40gr 5.7 bullet, you have to keep in mind (as Jay pointed out) that the stubby bullets aren't going to fly as well as say a VMax at 100 yards. Then again, not everyone has much use for a 100+ yard pistol round. Being able to use different bullets for specific applications is another big advantage that the .22 TCM apparently lacks.

It was heavy, but I can't see how any reduction in recoil would significantly improve performance over an FsN. Accuracy has more to do with the shooter, and the 1911 platform might be better for those who are familiar with it and don't want to take the time to practice with the lighter FsN.

The adjustable sights were somewhat similar to a FsN, but the front post didn't have any kind of dot on it. That would annoy me.

Trigger wasn't bad. Crisp, light(ish), no creep. Certainly better than a stock FsN trigger.

Whether or not Im going to purchase one of these depends on whether I can a) find dies b) load longer, better bullets and c) achieve significantly superior performance over 5.7x28. If you have to use short bullets, I'd have to be able to hand load a 40gr bullet a lot faster than 2100fps to make me want to own one.

GRANT. :cya:

:thumb: