SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

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NLVMike
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SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by NLVMike » 22 Jan 2011, 09:02

I spent two days wandering around the SHOT show, drooling on toys I can't afford. It was both painful and incredible. I will post elsewhere some of the other things I saw, but this one was pretty interesting. Armscor, the Phillipine manufacturer of Rock Island Arms, and lots of ammo, has a new gun out aimed as a direct competitor for the 5.7. First, my attempt at uploading a lame blackberry photo of it.

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What we have here is a 1911 that was a 9MM double stack with a .22 barrel. The ammo is a .223 casing, shortened up with a 40 grain partion .22 bullet. They claim 2,300 FPS out of a 5 inch barrel. I talked to them about ammo availability, and their answer was that they are one of the world's largest ammo makers, and they would have plenty, but they also admitted that they were working the SHOT show to get reloader dies made for it. It will retail about $600.

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by romer522 » 22 Jan 2011, 10:44

Looks heavy....

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by f3rr37 » 22 Jan 2011, 11:47

Hope they don't run into the issues that the 10mm BOZ had.

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by panzermk2 » 22 Jan 2011, 12:54

That is exactly what I was thinking. The fact that it's based on .223 makes brass, dies, bolt SOMUCH much easier to make.

Since it uses stock .223 brass that means no reinforced base like the 5.7 meaning it would have to a locked breach and not a blow back.

I would love to get my hands on some of that brass.
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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by darksidemxer » 22 Jan 2011, 16:47

I like it, could be fun!

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by Reese706 » 23 Jan 2011, 13:37

what are they gonna call the pistol and round? Wonder what the magzine capacity is gonna be and if they'll have a carbine to go along with it?

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by flyingirish04 » 23 Jan 2011, 13:59

could be cool. At the very least it will require FNH to compete.
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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by PainKillaX » 23 Jan 2011, 14:06

Given a lower price, 1911 frame, and .223 brass I could see this being big competition.

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by flyingirish04 » 23 Jan 2011, 14:49

Which is exactly what they need. FNH has become lazy in its process of creative destruction and innovation when it comes to this round. The possibilities with ammo alone that they have hampered is disgraceful on its own. Thank god for EA, or that front would have made this firearm severely hampered.

Now they may look to adapting the round to new platforms and other genres other than tactical (only for MIL/LEOs if it weren't for EA) and plinking (The only thing FN ammo is good for these days). Who knows Jay, maybe they put some money into your business to expand. :thumb:
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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by 69ranchero351c » 23 Jan 2011, 14:50

Reese706 wrote:what are they gonna call the pistol and round? Wonder what the magzine capacity is gonna be and if they'll have a carbine to go along with it?
.22 tcm is the name and 18 plus 1 capacity and, 600 msrp with the .22tcm barrel and a 9mm barrel.

so figure 450-500 street price for it. and i am so gettin one.

i just wish they'd release a midsize tactical in 9mm.

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by NLVMike » 24 Jan 2011, 06:47

romer522 wrote:Looks heavy....
It is heavy. It is an all steel 1911 double stack. I suppose that also means that felt recoil would be close to nil. They had ammo shown that was headstamped .22 TCM, and they also had some ammo headstamped .223. I was not at the demo shoot, but I spoke with some who were. They said they put hundreds of rounds downrange of both and it worked great. If I can get it street price of $500 with both barrels, I don't think I could pass this one up.

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by N4TAB-Tom » 24 Jan 2011, 07:16

FWIW, Google finds commentary in a number of forums, but this site:
<http://atomitronx.com/products.html>
seems to have some info about the origin of the round and gun.

Tom

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by Cyberfly » 24 Jan 2011, 07:52

5.6X16? X20? It sure looks short and squat.
I dunno, but I could see it catching on.
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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by g24ported » 24 Jan 2011, 08:45

http://gunsforsale.com/ghg/2011/01/20/r ... ag-22-tcm/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by iFire » 24 Jan 2011, 10:17

Could be really fun. I would have to see it in person, or get my hands on a mag + bullets to know for sure, but:

Their bullet design, short and fat, *May* very well be a nightmare for reloading and/or variety in commercial loads if the magazine wont accept bullets like the 40gr Vmax/Nosler, 36gr Varmint Grenade, 45gr BBS or similar, longer style projectiles...

This would kill it for me...

Currently the only limitation of the 5.7x28 round is that their are only two types produced *Commercially* for it. HOWEVER, that is easily solved by getting ammo through EA for instance or by loading them yourself, either of which will give you excellent performance with just about any style projectile you desire...

This new "TCM" round (not sure of the caliber name?) could produce 2100 fps at the muzzle with a 40gr bullet which is excellent, no doubt. BUT, If there is only ONE PROJECTILE CHOICE, that would be just HORRIBLE... :furious:

They should have shortened the case enough to allow for a larger variety of bullets to be used :wall: Even if that meant going down to 2000 fps at the muzzle...

Do you think they did this on purpose? So as to make their ammo and/or bullet components "proprietary" in a sense???

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by PainKillaX » 24 Jan 2011, 10:36

Why couldn't they just be chill and make a 1911 chambered in 5.7x28 and turn one of their machines to making some fresh ammo for us? :laugh:

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by blueorison » 24 Jan 2011, 10:56

1. 1911 is American's favourite platform. Don't need to advertise much to get attention; easily adopted; easily actuated.
2. Shortened because the longer case would require a longer magwell, etc.
3. Not sure of the exact bullet dimensions and design they are using, but it looks pretty strict. I would also hope that they lowered and flared enough that you can recycle brass without bringing it to your smith, first.
4. There are already many advantages and disadvantages to this platform when compared to the 5.7x28mm. Some include loading info, bullet availability for various bullet construction & types, etc. and mainly centered on the bullet itself. Perceived advantages might include higher capacity, heavy platform vs. FsN (how many umpteenth times have we heard from newbies who can't shoot the FsN worth half a penny tell us that they've gotten a lemon or the FsN is an "inaccurate gun"?), easier to smith and customize, lower bore wear and tear, shorter bullet, pressure (too early to tell), etc.
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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by ynoty3k » 24 Jan 2011, 12:03


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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by jmz5 » 24 Jan 2011, 12:34

That looks friggin sweet. I can't wait to get my hands on one.
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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by cvande » 24 Jan 2011, 15:52

69ranchero351c wrote:
Reese706 wrote:what are they gonna call the pistol and round? Wonder what the magzine capacity is gonna be and if they'll have a carbine to go along with it?
.22 tcm is the name and 18 plus 1 capacity and, 600 msrp with the .22tcm barrel and a 9mm barrel.

so figure 450-500 street price for it. and i am so gettin one.

i just wish they'd release a midsize tactical in 9mm.

Did I read that correctly? It comes with the 22tcm barrel AND the 9mm barrel for 600msrp? Isn't the .223 base just a little loose in a 9mm breech?

Awesome deal if it is a 2 for 1.

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by ynoty3k » 24 Jan 2011, 16:19

Sounds like a good deal, I dunno just not that appealing to me.

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by DAUG » 25 Jan 2011, 12:14

Hmmmmm, interesting and maybe worth a look.

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by Reese706 » 09 Feb 2011, 15:53

just doesn't excite me that much from the initial nfo. Same balistics as 5.7 with lower capacity. Only thing i like so far is that it fits in a 1911 locked breech i assume. If the round turns out to be able to able to beat five seven ballistics i'll maybe get one.

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by Buffman » 09 Feb 2011, 16:00

yeah after some reading, you're going to see 1950 fps from a 40gr loading for practice and 2050 fps from their SD ammo. We already have EA stuff that smokes that, with a lot better bullet choices. One of their sites mentioned the bullet is custom, so I wonder what one will be able to load up into the .22 TCM?

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by panzermk2 » 09 Feb 2011, 19:15

Buffman wrote:yeah after some reading, you're going to see 1950 fps from a 40gr loading for practice and 2050 fps from their SD ammo. We already have EA stuff that smokes that, with a lot better bullet choices. One of their sites mentioned the bullet is custom, so I wonder what one will be able to load up into the .22 TCM?
If the FsN had a 5.5 inch barrel like their 1911 based gun our ProtecTOR would be going over 2,100fps.
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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by iFire » 09 Feb 2011, 21:49

Buffman wrote:yeah after some reading, you're going to see 1950 fps from a 40gr loading for practice and 2050 fps from their SD ammo. We already have EA stuff that smokes that, with a lot better bullet choices. One of their sites mentioned the bullet is custom, so I wonder what one will be able to load up into the .22 TCM?
Basically nothing... Exactly why I don't and won't like it... No bullet choices, except their short, pudgy little custom bullet...

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by panzermk2 » 10 Feb 2011, 11:09

I noticed that. With a 1911 frame your really limited in your bullet choices due to very short OAL.

Although lately I must admit to be looking at loading the 4.6x30
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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by blueorison » 10 Feb 2011, 13:56

...for the Tokarev; they just came out with a barrel conversion 1911 kit for 9mm and .38 super 1911's. Requires minor fitting.

I've always wanted a Tok. Will probably get a CZ, though; don't see the point in getting a 9mm or .38 super unless you're shooting open class.
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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by fooschnickens » 10 Feb 2011, 15:09

Toks are so fun.

AND CHEAP

My word are they cheap. Last time I went out with my buddy to shoot his he BEGGED me to shoot it more so he would have room in his safe for different ammo. :laugh:
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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by Reese706 » 02 Mar 2011, 10:28

4.6 x 30 excites me even less. .22 cal is small enough caliber wise in my opinion...why go any smaller? If anything i'd go up to .30 cal. Thats why i'm rethinking .357 sig. Shyt if a .30 cal torarev can push a 86 grain bullt to 1500 -1600fps. A more modern .357 sig can match that or beat that with a .355 cal bullet and still fit in a modern pocket glock. After thinking more about it i was thinking in a carbine like a ps90 it would blow the 5.7 out the water. 5.7 is pretty wimpy honestly for the price...only 600 ftlbs out a 16inch barrel. If the tokarev round can penetrate the way it does a .357 sig loaded max with a 90 grain should perform as well or better possibly. Theres a company i buy ammo for even offers a Barnes 80 grain jhp that gets 1600 fps out a 3.5 inch barrel.

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by PainKillaX » 02 Mar 2011, 10:30

To be fair, muzzle energy cannot be the only measure of a weapons worth. When looking at the P90/PS90 it is important to consider weight, ergonomics, recoil, capacity, and accuracy as well.

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by Reese706 » 02 Mar 2011, 10:43

PainKillaX wrote:To be fair, muzzle energy cannot be the only measure of a weapons worth. When looking at the P90/PS90 it is important to consider weight, ergonomics, recoil, capacity, and accuracy as well.
TRue ..but i was talking more about the cartriges than the weapon. .357 sig is cheaper and easier to get than 5.7x28. Also it can be reloaded easier and components are readily avaible. Sure its not going to have the low recoil of five seven or capacity but theres always a trade off when increasing power. Heavier recoil and lower mag capacity never stopped me from liking my .45..lol

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by PainKillaX » 02 Mar 2011, 10:49

Reese706 wrote:
PainKillaX wrote:To be fair, muzzle energy cannot be the only measure of a weapons worth. When looking at the P90/PS90 it is important to consider weight, ergonomics, recoil, capacity, and accuracy as well.
TRue ..but i was talking more about the cartriges than the weapon. .357 sig is cheaper and easier to get than 5.7x28. Also it can be reloaded easier and components are readily avaible. Sure its not going to have the low recoil of five seven or capacity but theres always a trade off when increasing power. Heavier recoil and lower mag capacity never stopped me from liking my .45..lol
Definitely! :thumb:

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by Buffman » 02 Mar 2011, 11:03

Reese706 wrote:4.6 x 30 excites me even less. .22 cal is small enough caliber wise in my opinion...why go any smaller? If anything i'd go up to .30 cal. Thats why i'm rethinking .357 sig. Shyt if a .30 cal torarev can push a 86 grain bullt to 1500 -1600fps. A more modern .357 sig can match that or beat that with a .355 cal bullet and still fit in a modern pocket glock. After thinking more about it i was thinking in a carbine like a ps90 it would blow the 5.7 out the water. 5.7 is pretty wimpy honestly for the price...only 600 ftlbs out a 16inch barrel. If the tokarev round can penetrate the way it does a .357 sig loaded max with a 90 grain should perform as well or better possibly. Theres a company i buy ammo for even offers a Barnes 80 grain jhp that gets 1600 fps out a 3.5 inch barrel.

.357 sig is almost $10 more per box than standard 5.7x28mm ammunition 95% of the time. I did find some S&B for $20.99 for .357 sig. Most all balastic's tests show about the same penetration as 9mm, .40S&W, and .45 ACP when comparing JHPs of the 4 calibers.

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by flyingirish04 » 02 Mar 2011, 11:21

Reese706 wrote:4.6 x 30 excites me even less. .22 cal is small enough caliber wise in my opinion...why go any smaller? If anything i'd go up to .30 cal. Thats why i'm rethinking .357 sig. Shyt if a .30 cal torarev can push a 86 grain bullt to 1500 -1600fps. A more modern .357 sig can match that or beat that with a .355 cal bullet and still fit in a modern pocket glock. After thinking more about it i was thinking in a carbine like a ps90 it would blow the 5.7 out the water. 5.7 is pretty wimpy honestly for the price...only 600 ftlbs out a 16inch barrel. If the tokarev round can penetrate the way it does a .357 sig loaded max with a 90 grain should perform as well or better possibly. Theres a company i buy ammo for even offers a Barnes 80 grain jhp that gets 1600 fps out a 3.5 inch barrel.
None of what you say is true. 357 Sig SD ammo is much more expensive the FsN ammo, and it doesn't achiever nearly the velocity. The wound channels of a 357 sig don't differ much from 40 S&W and in ballistic gel, the hydrostatic shock increase with the 5.7 is easily recognized. What company offers that round btw for the 357 Sig out of 3.5 inch barrel?? I would love to see data on it. Even if it were true, that pails in comparison to EA's rounds out of the FsN.

Don't get me wrong, the 357 Sig is a good pistol round, but I don't see it being the end all be all, especially over the 5.7. If anything, I think you should go with th 10mm if you are using your criteria.
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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by Reese706 » 02 Mar 2011, 11:41

i didn't voice my opion to get a caliber war started. But i understand some you guys are very sensitive about your beloved 5.7 which i also like. Never said any caliber was the end all be all. If you reread my post you'll see i said thereis always a trade off with any caliber. It was just my opion on what i thought might be an alternative for me..never said one was necessarily better than another. I just said it was hard to get ...yeah Ea rounds are hotter than factory but how easy is it to get ? I can order a fifty round box of Double tap for 41 bucks that gets 500 ftlbs out a subcompact or i can reload it myself. 5.7 is much harder to reload for . Plus hydrostactic shock is debateable at 5.7 speeds and muzzle energy. But your entitled to your opion like i am mines...i just think for the price and availabilty it could have more horsepower. That doesn'nt mean im saying it's worthless

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by Reese706 » 02 Mar 2011, 11:53

from the posts you guys obviously missed my points. Its cheaper when we consider the 5.7 Ea rounds vs standard .357 sig. Fnh ammo is cheaper but its so watered down to not even to come close to .357 sig ballistics. PLus if i was trying to get max penetration i would'nt use a jhp. I'd use a fmj ..isn't that what the 7.62x 25 uses to get nearly identical penetration as 5.7? out of a carbine i'm sure it could top 2000fps with a light enough bullet. Or better yet if .357sig can't, go a step up to 9x25 dillon.

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by Buffman » 02 Mar 2011, 18:29

Reese706 wrote:from the posts you guys obviously missed my points. Its cheaper when we consider the 5.7 Ea rounds vs standard .357 sig. Fnh ammo is cheaper but its so watered down to not even to come close to .357 sig ballistics. PLus if i was trying to get max penetration i would'nt use a jhp. I'd use a fmj ..isn't that what the 7.62x 25 uses to get nearly identical penetration as 5.7? out of a carbine i'm sure it could top 2000fps with a light enough bullet. Or better yet if .357sig can't, go a step up to 9x25 dillon.

7.62x25 Out penetrates 5.7 ammo in it's FMJ form. IIRC you can get 18"+ of penetration from 7.62TT. You still want expansion, not just extreme penetration..

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by panzermk2 » 02 Mar 2011, 22:46

Reese706 wrote:from the posts you guys obviously missed my points. Its cheaper when we consider the 5.7 Ea rounds vs standard .357 sig. Fnh ammo is cheaper but its so watered down to not even to come close to .357 sig ballistics. PLus if i was trying to get max penetration i would'nt use a jhp. I'd use a fmj ..isn't that what the 7.62x 25 uses to get nearly identical penetration as 5.7? out of a carbine i'm sure it could top 2000fps with a light enough bullet. Or better yet if .357sig can't, go a step up to 9x25 dillon.
So your comparing top shelf ammo price of EA vs. standard? Then complaining about the cost? When it's been shown apples to apples the .357 sig is more expensive?

Oh and as to penetration frontal area comes into play big time on this one. If you take bullets of the same weight at the same fps and one has 1/3 the frontal area it will penetrate more then the other with the greater frontal area that is easier to stop.

This is why the M1A2 tanks SABOT round fired from the 120mm barrel is a 20mm in diameter needle. Smaller frontal area gives better penetration, stabilization and RANGE. Wonder how well your .357 sig performs at 100 yards? Wonder if it will penetrate a crisat plate like the watered down factory SS190. Well I can tell you it won't. It won't at 10 yards just like the 9mm won't.


What's the BC of .357 sig?

I have some 1/8 rolled steel plate. Love to see how well the .357 won't penetrate it. The 5.7 well and still do massive tissue damage after.

I know what your thinking BS on that last one but be careful I have the videos of just that posted up already.

In fact I have some 40 Short and Weak guns. I will get a .357 sig barrel and this summer do some barrier and bone in pork shoulder tests just like I have done with the 5.7, 10mm and 45acp.

That will end the discussion very quickly.


9x25 dillon talk about over priced expensive ammo.
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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by Reese706 » 03 Mar 2011, 05:44

i wasn't really complaining i was more so making an observation that the power of top of the shelf as you say 5.7 is low even against standard .357sig once again in my opinion. Can i not have my opinon? Second i said its not a total knock to the round as i like it still and i know theres trade off with any caliber. So why everyone made this it to a big discussion about which one penetrates steel better and creates more damage afterwards than the other i don't understand? I never said anything about that but that its easier to reload and cheaper when you compare max power five seven against .357 sig. Why would i want to compare ammo that gets barely 300 ftlbs out a 5inch vs 550ftlbs out a 3.5 inch barrel. Reason i was thinking of going to 357 sig as an secondary gun to my 5.7, is i can get that power in a subcompact. Wheres the subcompact for 5.7 ?

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by blueorison » 03 Mar 2011, 09:32

I see physicality and energies being argued;

Reese; good points have been brought up - we shouldn't all agree. Panzer brought up those points to highlight the characteristics and capabilities of the round instead of focusing purely on the energy and weight characteristics.

You can have your opinion! That's the great thing; discussion and enlightenment is encouraged. There is nothing wrong with that :)
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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by panzermk2 » 03 Mar 2011, 11:08

Reese706 wrote:l. Reason i was thinking of going to 357 sig as an secondary gun to my 5.7, is i can get that power in a subcompact. Wheres the subcompact for 5.7 ?
That is the biggest short fall of the FsN no compact. When I want a compact I go with my 10mm 3.5inch Witness loaded with my 165gr JHP 1270 fps 591 ft. lbs energy.

I can tell you yo one of the things on a very fare back burner is a solid Aluminum FsN frame from EA. Along with this some form of compact if we can make it work.
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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by Reese706 » 27 Mar 2011, 06:20

the problem with the FSN platform is it seems it needs a lot more barrel to get the 400 ftlbs of energy it maxes out at. Good platform but i think they should have made the case maybe slighly taller to 30 mm and slighly fatter to get more power out of it. How much m energy would it make in a 3.5 or 4 inch barrel i don't know but it would be probly better than what you can get now. The current ammo maxes out at 400 ftlbs now in the 5 inch barrel so if they could have gotten it up to 500 ftlbs or so i think people would have less scutiny of the round. I've shot a few animals down here in Georgia with the round and i have to say that while shot placement is important with any round its even more so with 5.7. I had to shoot armadillos multiple times to kill or even put it down. So gel tests and shooting pieces of meat don't impress me much. Glad i live out in country where i can shoot live animals and see for myself what these calibers do in actual iving things.

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by Buffman » 27 Mar 2011, 08:16

But many know energy(ft lbs) doesn't wound.. We've seen people take Hogs with a single shot of SS197SR. How tough is that dermal bone armor on an Armadillo?

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by Reese706 » 27 Mar 2011, 09:02

Buffman wrote:But many know energy(ft lbs) doesn't wound.. We've seen people take Hogs with a single shot of SS197SR. How tough is that dermal bone armor on an Armadillo?
So lack of energy does wound? if the bullet doesnt have enough speed how can it wound? The bullets for the SS 197 are orignally made for .223 at 3000fps plus so if you lower the velocity common sense would tell you it won't expand and fragment as violently.. i think some of you on here are being a littlte disengenious or drinking the fn koolaid about the 5.7. Its an ok round but i still think its lacking in power. The V-max bullet in the ss197 just starts to expand at 1600 fps which is very near the max velocity of the cartrigde. The Ea protector only gets slightly higher velocity. I've seen the posts of people showing Pics of pigs they've shot also but theres no video showing how fast and how many shots it took to put one down with factory or EA round. ALL of the ones i saw were head shots..a .22 lr can put something down with a headshot. In a SD scenario a head shot is what you'd want but not easily acheived especially if the attacker is shooting back.

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by jgreenberg01 » 27 Mar 2011, 10:09

Ugh, this is like deja vu all over again...
0100001101101111011011010110010100100000011000010110111001100100001000000111010001100001011010110110010100100000011010010111010000101110

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by panzermk2 » 27 Mar 2011, 12:34

Reese706 wrote:
Buffman wrote:But many know energy(ft lbs) doesn't wound.. We've seen people take Hogs with a single shot of SS197SR. How tough is that dermal bone armor on an Armadillo?
So lack of energy does wound? if the bullet doesnt have enough speed how can it wound?
The bullets for the SS 197 are orignally made for .223 at 3000fps plus so if you lower the velocity common sense would tell you it won't expand and fragment as violently..
Sorry but the V-max was designed to open and work at lower velocities. All you have to do is go the Hornady's website and you can read it for your self.

You just don't know what your talking about. At 300 yards that V-max is not going 3000fps. The bullets where designed to operate at the lower velocities encountered at that range. This image is from Nosler's own website, showing how their 50gr Ballistic Silvertip bullets perform that we use in our Pro2.

EA ProtecTOR II!

Using Combined Technology's 50gr Ballistic Silvertip Bullet.


FsN 1790 fps 356 ft.lbs
Image

Also to even come close to giving your argument ANY merit you would have to ignore the years of tests and data published on just this one thread alone,

Side by Side comparison including dissection videos of bone in pork shoulders can be found here between our 10mm+P 165JHP and our 5.7 rounds if you look. You will see the damage rendered by both rounds aren't discernible from each other.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8623" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also there are bullets specifically made for the 5.7x28 from FN and EA
Reese706 wrote: i think some of you on here are being a littlte disengenious or drinking the fn koolaid about the 5.7. Its an ok round but i still think its lacking in power. The V-max bullet in the ss197 just starts to expand at 1600 fps which is very near the max velocity of the cartrigde. The Ea protector only gets slightly higher velocity. I've seen the posts of people showing Pics of pigs they've shot also but theres no video showing how fast and how many shots it took to put one down with factory or EA round.
Talk about a koolaid drinker, the vids ARE up of pigs getting shot and killed.
Reese706 wrote: ALL of the ones i saw were head shots..a .22 lr can put something down with a headshot. In a SD scenario a head shot is what you'd want but not easily acheived especially if the attacker is shooting back.
Again talk about koolaid drinking. You really have to work hard to ignore all the data posted on just the one thread above to even remotely believe your argument.

Your either a fool or a troll.
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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by Buffman » 27 Mar 2011, 14:29

Reese706 wrote:
Buffman wrote:But many know energy(ft lbs) doesn't wound.. We've seen people take Hogs with a single shot of SS197SR. How tough is that dermal bone armor on an Armadillo?
So lack of energy does wound? if the bullet doesnt have enough speed how can it wound? The bullets for the SS 197 are orignally made for .223 at 3000fps plus so if you lower the velocity common sense would tell you it won't expand and fragment as violently.. i think some of you on here are being a littlte disengenious or drinking the fn koolaid about the 5.7. Its an ok round but i still think its lacking in power. The V-max bullet in the ss197 just starts to expand at 1600 fps which is very near the max velocity of the cartrigde. The Ea protector only gets slightly higher velocity. I've seen the posts of people showing Pics of pigs they've shot also but theres no video showing how fast and how many shots it took to put one down with factory or EA round. ALL of the ones i saw were head shots..a .22 lr can put something down with a headshot. In a SD scenario a head shot is what you'd want but not easily acheived especially if the attacker is shooting back.

I didn't say that. But certainly some of those super high speed frangible ExtremeShock rounds don't wound very well now do they :) IIRC the last person I recall thought they said they took a hog with SS197SR behind it's shoulder one shot, and then it went down. Let Me try to find it. I'm not drinking any koolaid. I'm not claiming the 5.7 the be all there is to be cartridge..

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by Reese706 » 27 Mar 2011, 17:03

First off to panzer theres nothing you could tell me that i wouldn't take with a grain of salt because you have a financial interest in hyping this round. I wouldn't believe anything you say anymore than i would a used car dealer..lol. Second you obviously didn't pay attention to what i wrote because you got it wrong. I already said the Hornady V-max operates at 1600 fps and up ...you come up saying i said it can't operate at velocity and plus you start talking about another brand of bullet. If it just starts to expand at 1600fps and the round its being fired in just barely gets over that window its of course not going to expand as explosively. Please don't insult my intelligence. Also to Buffman.. people who actually have killed things also know theres a difference between wounding something and killing something quickly. I can shoot you with something that leaves a gruesome superficial wound but it won't put you down. And what Vids of pigs getting shot? I saw one grainy vid of a pig that took several shots . The vid was too short and unclear make much of it. Why wasn't the dead pig examined upclose to show how many shots it took to put it down? It seems anyone considered a troll on this forum if they don't have 100% positive things to say about the round. Guess ill just be a troll then ..i call it how i see it not how others would like me to. I'm speaking from actual testing on the round in living animals with my own eyes so nothing anyone can tell me different not even FNH. Like i said before i picked the Fnh because i liked lot of its qualities and still do just one dept i think its lacking and thats its stopping power. Knowing what i know now if in a SD situation i'd go for a head shot if possible. If a body shot was all i could get i'd unload in the chest area

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by panzermk2 » 27 Mar 2011, 18:36

Reese706 wrote:First off to panzer theres nothing you could tell me that i wouldn't take with a grain of salt because you have a financial interest in hyping this round. I wouldn't believe anything you say anymore than i would a used car dealer..lol.


Surprised it took you so long to to say I am lying and faked all my test results to make a buck. Plus I bribed all the third party people who have tested my ammo to generate fake results also
Cool then I faked all my tests. Well I can't wait to see what and how you twist things when Brass Fetcher gets done and makes public their test results.
Reese706 wrote: Second you obviously didn't pay attention to what i wrote because you got it wrong. I already said the Hornady V-max operates at 1600 fps and up ...you come up saying i said it can't operate at velocity and plus you start talking about another brand of bullet. If it just starts to expand at 1600fps and the round its being fired in just barely gets over that window its of course not going to expand as explosively. Please don't insult my intelligence. Also to Buffman.. people who actually have killed things also know theres a difference between wounding something and killing something quickly.


You mean like those dead hogs? The V-max does the same thing also I just happened to have a pic. Of course you don't challenge the pic or those facts.
I once shot the entire hind quarter off a deer. It turned and bolted as I pulled the trigger. I cit it almost in half. It ran 120 yards before dropping missing half of it's self. Does this mean the Weatherby .378 is a poor stopper?

Reese706 wrote: I can shoot you with something that leaves a gruesome superficial wound but it won't put you down.


Did you completely ignore those pork shoulder vids? Of course you did and you still won't address them because it would destroy your argument.
No Wait a minute you did it must have fallen under the faked claim.
Reese706 wrote: And what Vids of pigs getting shot? I saw one grainy vid of a pig that took several shots . The vid was too short and unclear make much of it. Why wasn't the dead pig examined upclose to show how many shots it took to put it down?


According to the person who shot the vid it was one shot. Are they lying now also?
WOW that's a lot of people that have to be lying. You a Truther also?
Reese706 wrote: It seems anyone considered a troll on this forum if they don't have 100% positive things to say about the round. Guess ill just be a troll then .


No people who ignore facts to so they can continue to believe the own built up misconceptions and then try every imaginable angle to justify the beliefs as facts.
Reese706 wrote: .i call it how i see it not how others would like me to. I'm speaking from actual testing on the round in living animals with my own eyes so nothing anyone can tell me different not even FNH. Like i said before i picked the Fnh because i liked lot of its qualities and still do just one dept i think its lacking and thats its stopping power. Knowing what i know now if in a SD situation i'd go for a head shot if possible. If a body shot was all i could get i'd unload in the chest area

Bull I don't think you have ever shot any living thing with the Fsn. Prove it.
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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by Reese706 » 27 Mar 2011, 19:16

why should i have to prove anything you guys are the ones acting like its better than every handgun caliber. with all this bs about pork shoulders tests and videos of shooting pigs with i only saw one of and was'nt impressed by. Since when did shooting a 10 lb porkshoulder mean a round is an effecient killer? Why would i say i like the gun and round on all but one area unless i saw it as fact? If i had something tottally against it i would have been sold my gun which i had for several years now and carry daily

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by flyingirish04 » 27 Mar 2011, 19:28

Listen man, I really don't want to sound like a jerk to you. However, it does appear like you are a faker with your whole 'stopping power' mantra. And you can't spell worth a crap, which is often what I see on BARFcom from guys who pretend to be SOF, and that generally don't have a clue what happens when bullet meets flesh, much less how to spell WASN'T r TOTALLY.

Talk with the FBI. Pork shoulders are better than ballistic gelatin in tell how a projectile acts in a body on impact.

It is a fact that anything that makes a wound channel like the FsN WILL PUT YOU DOWN. Hydrostatic and Capillary shock caused by rounds like it will put a guy down. The only thing that will do it better is a high power rifle, or possibly a Extreme Magnum Caliber. There is a reason why gun grabbers hate this pistol. It is a supreme SD weapon for a variety of situations.
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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by N4TAB-Tom » 27 Mar 2011, 19:33

FLUSH!!!!!

Note Coriolis effect................

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by N4TAB-Tom » 27 Mar 2011, 19:38

Waiting to see if we need a second pull of the chain.....sometime it takes two flushes............

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by f3rr37 » 27 Mar 2011, 19:54

Reese706 wrote:why should i have to prove anything you guys are the ones acting like its better than every handgun caliber. with all this bs about pork shoulders tests and videos of shooting pigs with i only saw one of and was'nt impressed by. Since when did shooting a 10 lb porkshoulder mean a round is an effecient killer? Why would i say i like the gun and round on all but one area unless i saw it as fact? If i had something tottally against it i would have been sold my gun which i had for several years now and carry daily
Please do not come here and crap all over the place. If you wish to debate, debate with some facts, don't insist on the people here on proving things when you yourself won't offer up any real proof that says otherwise.

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by panzermk2 » 27 Mar 2011, 20:36

Of course he can't offer up the proof he claims. All he can do is try to change the argument back without backing up any of his claims.

If you really looked you would see many videos.

Prove what you say or your nothing but a lying troll. I don't think you have ever killed or shot anything greater then an insect.
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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by Buffman » 27 Mar 2011, 21:32

I'd like to know how hard an armadillo's shell really is. It's bone after all.

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by panzermk2 » 27 Mar 2011, 21:36

It can jack up your alignment. I don't know why they are there since they are normally thought of as arid region critters but they are all over Michigan's upper and middle lower portion. Used to hit them on the highway all the time.
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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by Reese706 » 28 Mar 2011, 04:20

[quote="flyingirish04"]Listen man, I really don't want to sound like a jerk to you. However, it does appear like you are a faker with your whole 'stopping power' mantra. And you can't spell worth a crap, which is often what I see on BARFcom from guys who pretend to be SOF, and that generally don't have a clue what happens when bullet meets flesh, much less how to spell WASN'T r TOTALLY.

Talk with the FBI. Pork shoulders are better than ballistic gelatin in tell how a projectile acts in a body on impact.

It is a fact that anything that makes a wound channel like the FsN WILL PUT YOU DOWN. Hydrostatic and Capillary shock caused by rounds like it will put a guy down. The only thing that will do it better is a high power rifle, or possibly a Extreme Magnum Caliber. There is a reason why gun grabbers hate this pistol. It is a supreme SD weapon for a variety of situations.[/quotc So now you getting mad so you want insult me on my spelling? As if you've never typed an error? It was late and i was rushing to get to sleep. And to address the rest of what you said and the others and i'm done. Obviously you wasn't paying attention all this time because i said pork shoulders and gel tests mean little to ME. Now if you or this Panzer guy or anyone else want make the conclusion that shooting an dead piece of meat means the 5.7 is better than another service round in stopping go ahead. But some of us don't believe the hype. And its even more apparent that its hype. Because why would people who claim to be unbiased and not defending its shortcomings because of financial interests get so defensive over something made by a company their not a part of? Any other gun forum i've been on people voice their criticisms and they don't get no where near the flack as here . Oh yeah and which is it? Panzer says his rounds are identical to 10mm in the pork test..now you saying only thing comes close is high power rifle rounds. Y'all are full of it..and i'm done

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by jgreenberg01 » 28 Mar 2011, 05:03

Reese706: First of all, I think he said your spelling is less than excellent because it is pretty ugly (correct me if I'm wrong Irish). It's not just the spelling, but the grammar too - your posts are simply hard to read.

Second, your content is inflammatory - you criticize and even question forum members' integrity while offering only opinions as opposed to facts. I think that you will find people here more than willing to enter into a friendly debate with anyone of a differing opinion as long as they are reasonable. You sir might want to dial it back a bit and play a little nicer and your stay might be a more pleasant one...
0100001101101111011011010110010100100000011000010110111001100100001000000111010001100001011010110110010100100000011010010111010000101110

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by panzermk2 » 28 Mar 2011, 08:42

When is 10mm a high powered rifle round?

Here are the vids you can't seem to find or understand. As anyone can easily see the damage caused by both rounds is easily comparable with the edge going to the 5.7x28 with the pulverizing of the entire bone through out the meat.

Of course I faked these vids, I created a breed of pigs with inherently weak bone and muscle structure so I ammo would perform better when I used their shoulders for testing.




PFP into pork shoulder


10mm 165gr JHP pork shoulder,






This is about the time Reese you tell me,
1) You're really John Rambo and I have no clue.
2) You're a big time industry insider and I should watch out.
3) You where planing on buying my ammo but not now since I hurt you feelings.

All BS and all I have heard before.
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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by Buffman » 28 Mar 2011, 08:46

Reese706 wrote: Any other gun forum i've been on people voice their criticisms and they don't get no where near the flack as here .
Apparently you don't belong to many gun forums. I see many criticism threads everyday (M&P vs Glock) (9mm Vs .45 ACP), and so forth on the 4-5 gun forums I'm on, and it's just like most internet arguements, lots of opinions, lots of flack, etc etc.

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by VeTTeMaNC486 » 28 Mar 2011, 21:06

I must say WOW.

This dude is a total idiot. How can gel/meat shots mean nothing to you as far as "stopping power"? That is completely stupid. If you want someone "done" and in an extremely timely fashion the only way to do it is a CNS shot or a shot to the heard or something of that sort. You either damage the area(s) or you don't. Sure they might die if shot elsewhere, but how much damage is done before then? To say gel shots and meat shots have no meaning shows how stupid you are. How is one supposed to compare rounds without compaing wound channels? In the end that is all that matters, the damage left behind (and its location). Nothing else. It is obvious that you are bias against this round and no amount of facts will "prove" this round to you. You offer NOTHING to support your claim that it is inferior other than you shot some animal with one and it lived. I shot a squirrel with my mini-30 ounce, did not hit a vital area, guess what? it didn't die. I had to shoot it again (through the neck out the other side this time :D ) and it was done. I guess that means 7.62x39 is a poor cartridge that has no "stopping power." I'm sure there are millions of people dead that would argue this with you if they could.

And to come on here and bash Jay speaks volumes of you. I personally do not know the man. I don't even do business with him. I've only had one order from him ever so I am not taking up for a budy or taking up for an investment or whatever you might want to say. What cannot be argued is the amount of information, testing, etc. that has been done by him and his company on this round. To try to bring his side of things into question is totally out of line. He has done more good for this round than you could ever attempt. Don't go there until you have done NEAR the tests, etc. that he has.

And, yes, your grammar is terrible. It is hard to read your posts. It is hard to take you seriously if you do not atleast make some effort at forming sentences correctly.

My opinion, this round is not the best at anything, but it is pretty dang good at everything, atleast as far as a pistol round is concerned (I don't even own a fiveseven).

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by Visceral_Malice » 29 Mar 2011, 00:45

.... So! about this Armscor gun!

I have reloaded a lot of their 62gr .223 fmj's because they are so cheap and readily available. They are good, but not great which is what I kind of expect from this gun. If its reasonably priced with widely (and cost effective) ammo available I may eventually want to get one, especially if it does come with that 9mm barrel also.

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by VeTTeMaNC486 » 29 Mar 2011, 00:50

Visceral_Malice wrote:.... So! about this Armscor gun!

I have reloaded a lot of their 62gr .223 fmj's because they are so cheap and readily available. They are good, but not great which is what I kind of expect from this gun. If its reasonably priced with widely (and cost effective) ammo available I may eventually want to get one, especially if it does come with that 9mm barrel also.
I have played with their 55gr fmj but wasn't impressed. This gun would make a neat addition to the collection. Depends on price and pricing of the ammo.

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by fooschnickens » 01 Apr 2011, 18:39

I think the ammo is going to be the part that makes or breaks this platform. Unless they make it substantially cheaper than 5.7 they're not going to be making many converts, if any. Hell, the only thing it's got going for it right now is that it's a 1911 clone (which, quite frankly, I'm tired of seeing. MAKE SOMETHING ORIGINAL!!).
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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by LK45s » 10 Jul 2011, 08:58

Anyone seen one in the real world yet?
Their site says:

"The .22 Micro-Magnum
Gunmaker Fred Craig is back with his all-new 22 Micro-Mag cartridge, and his red-hot 1911 Pistol! Spawned from a desire to create the next evolution in defensive-pistol performance, Craig's new Micro-Mag delivers 20 rounds of Blistering Magnum Horsepower with ultra light recoil, and an introductory starting price of only $979 "

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by 69ranchero351c » 10 Jul 2011, 13:21

im stiil waiten till i can get one. not on centerfires website yet so im still waiting.

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by VeTTeMaNC486 » 11 Jul 2011, 06:54

LK45s wrote:Anyone seen one in the real world yet?
Their site says:

"The .22 Micro-Magnum
Gunmaker Fred Craig is back with his all-new 22 Micro-Mag cartridge, and his red-hot 1911 Pistol! Spawned from a desire to create the next evolution in defensive-pistol performance, Craig's new Micro-Mag delivers 20 rounds of Blistering Magnum Horsepower with ultra light recoil, and an introductory starting price of only $979 "

http://atomitronx.com/products.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Same capacity as the FsN, similar price, so..... the question is.. why? I was interested in the thing until I saw that price tag. No thanks, I'll get a FsN instead if I had that kind of money.

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by Buffman » 11 Jul 2011, 12:16

Not to mention it will be heavier. There still has been no mention if their properitary bullet is needed in the cartridge to achieve those velocities, whcih are not much more than the FSN anyways..

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by srt-4_jon » 08 Dec 2011, 15:39

http://rimfirecentral.com/forums/showth ... p?t=422791" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Looks like they hit the streets with no ammo available.

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by nrv216 » 20 Jan 2012, 20:46

I was at the local gun store the other day and had an opportunity to fondle one of these. The "educated" sales person was all too eager to show me one when I mentioned that I shoot a fiveseven. So yes, the haters are all going to jump on the .22tcm bandwagon just cause they can't afford, or don't like the fsn.

Anyway, the pistol seemed decent and like I said I only had a chance to handle one for a few minutes so I am just going to state some of my observations.

- Its freakin heavy. So I am assuming it will be really really forgiving in the recoil department. I would expect this and not be that impressed due to the fact that my fsn feels like a squirt gun and still has half (IMO) the felt recoil of most 9mm pistols I have shot.

-It’s a double stack 1911 and feels like a double stack 1911. I personally do not like that. The grip is chunky and awkward in MY hands. Once again, Compared to the fsn which holds 20 rounds, compared to the .22tcm's 18, not very impressive.

-It did not feel like a very "tight" gun. sarcasm Now I am not sure if this is just because the store reps have been racking the slide since they got it sarcasm but IMO it felt like the slide had a lot of play, like it was loose. You know that glock trick where you rack the slide with one hand? It felt like my seven year old cousin could do it with this gun. My guess is that this is due to the fact that it is a heavy slide and a low recoil cartridge. Anyway, in my opinion it gave the gun a cheaper feel and it did not have the confidence inspiring "lock up" that my fsn does.

-Sights. I am sorry but I really dislike rear sights that are solid black. Unless I am shooting white paper, I find it to be a pain in the ass. This, among other things (i.e. weight), is leading me to believe that this is designed to be a range gun only.

-Trigger. I did not really play with the trigger much because I do not like to dry fire guns that are not mine but it seemed decent for the price of the gun. Granted, I am not a trigger connoisseur, but it felt acceptable.

Overall, I see this as a fun range toy and not much else. I know many people criticize the fsn as the same thing but I think that FN's reputation and the work that Jay and Crew do at EA have proven otherwise. I do think that armscor/RIA had a good idea when they jumped on the pdw caliber pistol bandwagon, but, at least in its stock configuration, their offering would not be sitting at my bedside nor would I grab it over any of my .22lr pistols before heading to the range. ONCE AGAIN, in case anyone missed it, this is just my opinion and it is only based on my handling the gun at the local store.

nrv216

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by Grantness » 24 Jun 2012, 14:27

I finally spotted one of these at my local shop. As I've been out of the loop for some time, I didn't have a clue that this thing even existed.

The way I see it, its a decent alternative to 5.7 if you can't afford a FsN or don't have access to quality 5.7 ammo. The 40gr 2100fps ammo was about $25 which is way better than FN civilian factory ammo and half the price of comparable EA ammo. While that's about as fast as anyone could get a 40gr 5.7 bullet, you have to keep in mind (as Jay pointed out) that the stubby bullets aren't going to fly as well as say a VMax at 100 yards. Then again, not everyone has much use for a 100+ yard pistol round. Being able to use different bullets for specific applications is another big advantage that the .22 TCM apparently lacks.

It was heavy, but I can't see how any reduction in recoil would significantly improve performance over an FsN. Accuracy has more to do with the shooter, and the 1911 platform might be better for those who are familiar with it and don't want to take the time to practice with the lighter FsN.

The adjustable sights were somewhat similar to a FsN, but the front post didn't have any kind of dot on it. That would annoy me.

Trigger wasn't bad. Crisp, light(ish), no creep. Certainly better than a stock FsN trigger.

Whether or not Im going to purchase one of these depends on whether I can a) find dies b) load longer, better bullets and c) achieve significantly superior performance over 5.7x28. If you have to use short bullets, I'd have to be able to hand load a 40gr bullet a lot faster than 2100fps to make me want to own one.
Last edited by Grantness on 24 Jun 2012, 14:30, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by Rapier1772 » 24 Jun 2012, 14:29

GRANT!!! Where ya been?

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by Grantness » 24 Jun 2012, 14:32

Thanks! :cya:

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by smpsmp » 24 Jun 2012, 17:05

I talked to a few guys at the RIA booth at recent dealer show. They ranked right with Stag Arms booth in my book, which was as low as they could get. The guys working it didn't know a thing about their product. The RIA guys were going on and on about the 22 TCM and how great it is, so I asked what grain bullets you could load, and can you use ballistic tips. Funny thing was they kept ignoring those two questions.

NRV216,
I don't think I ever recall seeing a RIA that wasn't loose. They are more of a budget gun. As far as being double stack, I had heard before that RIA was doing Para's frames, and the RIA guy mentioned something about PARA and I pretty much laughed at him at that point. I never thought someone would try and mention Para as a selling point. I walked away at that point.

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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by blueorison » 24 Jun 2012, 21:08

Grantness wrote:I finally spotted one of these at my local shop. As I've been out of the loop for some time, I didn't have a clue that this thing even existed.

The way I see it, its a decent alternative to 5.7 if you can't afford a FsN or don't have access to quality 5.7 ammo. The 40gr 2100fps ammo was about $25 which is way better than FN civilian factory ammo and half the price of comparable EA ammo. While that's about as fast as anyone could get a 40gr 5.7 bullet, you have to keep in mind (as Jay pointed out) that the stubby bullets aren't going to fly as well as say a VMax at 100 yards. Then again, not everyone has much use for a 100+ yard pistol round. Being able to use different bullets for specific applications is another big advantage that the .22 TCM apparently lacks.

It was heavy, but I can't see how any reduction in recoil would significantly improve performance over an FsN. Accuracy has more to do with the shooter, and the 1911 platform might be better for those who are familiar with it and don't want to take the time to practice with the lighter FsN.

The adjustable sights were somewhat similar to a FsN, but the front post didn't have any kind of dot on it. That would annoy me.

Trigger wasn't bad. Crisp, light(ish), no creep. Certainly better than a stock FsN trigger.

Whether or not Im going to purchase one of these depends on whether I can a) find dies b) load longer, better bullets and c) achieve significantly superior performance over 5.7x28. If you have to use short bullets, I'd have to be able to hand load a 40gr bullet a lot faster than 2100fps to make me want to own one.
GRANT. :cya:
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Re: SHOT 2011. Armscor's FsN competitor

Post by panzermk2 » 24 Jun 2012, 21:29

blueorison wrote:
Grantness wrote:I finally spotted one of these at my local shop. As I've been out of the loop for some time, I didn't have a clue that this thing even existed.

The way I see it, its a decent alternative to 5.7 if you can't afford a FsN or don't have access to quality 5.7 ammo. The 40gr 2100fps ammo was about $25 which is way better than FN civilian factory ammo and half the price of comparable EA ammo. While that's about as fast as anyone could get a 40gr 5.7 bullet, you have to keep in mind (as Jay pointed out) that the stubby bullets aren't going to fly as well as say a VMax at 100 yards. Then again, not everyone has much use for a 100+ yard pistol round. Being able to use different bullets for specific applications is another big advantage that the .22 TCM apparently lacks.

It was heavy, but I can't see how any reduction in recoil would significantly improve performance over an FsN. Accuracy has more to do with the shooter, and the 1911 platform might be better for those who are familiar with it and don't want to take the time to practice with the lighter FsN.

The adjustable sights were somewhat similar to a FsN, but the front post didn't have any kind of dot on it. That would annoy me.

Trigger wasn't bad. Crisp, light(ish), no creep. Certainly better than a stock FsN trigger.

Whether or not Im going to purchase one of these depends on whether I can a) find dies b) load longer, better bullets and c) achieve significantly superior performance over 5.7x28. If you have to use short bullets, I'd have to be able to hand load a 40gr bullet a lot faster than 2100fps to make me want to own one.
GRANT. :cya:


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