10mm CCW

g24ported · Post by **g24ported** » 02 Dec 2010, 19:47

my colt delta elite..

Post by **panzermk2** » 02 Dec 2010, 21:33

Very nice, my Delta is still in a pile.

LK45s · Post by **LK45s** » 02 Dec 2010, 21:47

S&W 310 Night Guard. I know it's kind of BIG but I'm going to try it. It weighs less than my Cbob. I also like the fact that you can shoot the cheaper and easier to find 40 S&W.

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Post by **panzermk2** » 02 Dec 2010, 23:32

teeze some more why don't you.

fatherfoof · Post by **fatherfoof** » 03 Dec 2010, 01:08

With three 10mm,s in the safe I need to confess I covet- one of the big Ten...

Post by **Rapier1772** » 03 Dec 2010, 02:28

big Ten or Bren Ten?

SeaHawkDriver-B · Post by **SeaHawkDriver-B** » 03 Dec 2010, 09:24

The more I see that Smith NIght-guard, the more I like it as a bedside-table gun. I always wonder if I'm suddenly waken out of a deep sleep how long its going to take me to be able to flip the safety off my FNP-45 Tac, assuming I can get it out of the biometric pistol safe to begin with. This is why for a quick-grab "leave it in the drawer gun", I've ususally kept a revolver first, and an auto behind it should I run out of bulllets.

The 10mm NG is very appealing for this reason, but how does the 10mm balistically stack up against a .357 Mag snubbie? I've always thought that with regular 10mm factory loads that the .357 would have more of an advantage, as it devliers a heck of a kick on the range out of a sub 3" barrel.

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 03 Dec 2010, 09:39

SeaHawkDriver-B wrote:The more I see that Smith NIght-guard, the more I like it as a bedside-table gun. I always wonder if I'm suddenly waken out of a deep sleep how long its going to take me to be able to flip the safety off my FNP-45 Tac, assuming I can get it out of the biometric pistol safe to begin with. This is why for a quick-grab "leave it in the drawer gun", I've ususally kept a revolver first, and an auto behind it should I run out of bulllets.

The 10mm NG is very appealing for this reason, but how does the 10mm balistically stack up against a .357 Mag snubbie? I've always thought that with regular 10mm factory loads that the .357 would have more of an advantage, as it devliers a heck of a kick on the range out of a sub 3" barrel.

If you are worried about killing a BG, a 10mm is plenty. I wouldn't worry about ballistics comparisons to 357 Mag or any round when the thing you are trying to put down is a dangerous human.

Post by **panzermk2** » 03 Dec 2010, 14:42

SeaHawkDriver-B wrote:The more I see that Smith NIght-guard, the more I like it as a bedside-table gun. I always wonder if I'm suddenly waken out of a deep sleep how long its going to take me to be able to flip the safety off my FNP-45 Tac, assuming I can get it out of the biometric pistol safe to begin with. This is why for a quick-grab "leave it in the drawer gun", I've ususally kept a revolver first, and an auto behind it should I run out of bulllets.

The 10mm NG is very appealing for this reason, but how does the 10mm ballistically stack up against a .357 Mag snubbie? I've always thought that with regular 10mm factory loads that the .357 would have more of an advantage, as it delivers a heck of a kick on the range out of a sub 3" barrel.

10mm beats the .357 rather hardily out of a shorter barrel. 10mm uses faster powders and makes better use of the short barrel.

Hornady load data
.357 180gr XTP 1150fps from 8 inch barrel.

10mm 180gr XTP 1250fps from 5 inch barrel.

This what I am getting with my 10mm 200gr
S&W 610 6.5 barrel 1295 fps 745 ft. lbs energy
Witness full sized 5 barrel comped 1290 fps 739 ft. lbs energy

Post by **panzermk2** » 03 Dec 2010, 14:47

If I push that 10mm 180gr XTP from an 8 inch barrel instead We would be looking at 1470fps.

fatherfoof · Post by **fatherfoof** » 04 Dec 2010, 10:06

What is it with us and 10mm's ? Look at how many hits there are on this post compared to almost any other. Just about every 5.7 owner has a couple 10s in the safe. Just an observation...

Post by **Rapier1772** » 04 Dec 2010, 11:06

fatherfoof wrote:What is it with us and 10mm's ? Look at how many hits there are on this post compared to almost any other. Just about every 5.7 owner has a couple 10s in the safe. Just an observation...

Or is trying to get one in the safe

SeaHawkDriver-B · Post by **SeaHawkDriver-B** » 04 Dec 2010, 14:06

Or whats even worse, I have a couple 10's, and I want MORE!

Aside from picking up a S&W 310NG, I'd really like to have an EAA Witness Elite Match (Tanfolglio). I think the 10mm is the ultimate semi-auto cartridge, its the best compromise between magnum power and a modern high-capcity semi.

However, that aside, as much as I love the 10mm, I don't stockpile ammo or plan on taking any of my 10's into bad situations, SHTF, TEOTWAWKI, etc. Ammo is hard to find, propriertary in nature, and expensive enough even when things are normal. One day if I get into reloading, my investment in the 10mm will pay off. I do DAILY CARRY 10mm for CCW, and OPEN CARRY when hunting or in the woods. Its also a staple pistol I carry in my car.

I think to answer your post, you find many of the similarities between the 5.7x28 and 10mm Auto becuase they share a lot in common. Maybe not balistically, but characteristically. They both are high-performance rounds, chambered in very few weapons, with limited and costly ammo availability. The up-side is that they are both balistically superior to other "similar" rounds in their respective categories, and certainly still 'unique' in the gun world. Someone who is attracted to the 5.7x28 would probably also be attracted to the 10mm.

SHEEPDOG · Post by **SHEEPDOG** » 04 Dec 2010, 21:38

I have four Dan Wesson 10mms. Three are CBOBS one Point Man(full sized). The were dicontinued for 2010, but are back for 2011. You can still get 2009 nib, one on GB now. Dan Wessons are very, very tight. They need to be broken in with high viscosity lube. I am a huge DW fan. I think they make the best production 1911s available.IMHO They are hard to find because they only put out 4,000 guns per year compaired to kimbers 40,000. I have many Glock 20 and 29s I no longer shoot because I don't trust them. I am one of those people that think John Mosses Browning got it right. I shoot 1911 because life is to short to shoot ugly guns.
I'm sure Jay knows more about the EEAs, but they have been having slides cracking.

Post by **panzermk2** » 04 Dec 2010, 21:46

It was the new style cut down slide that crack. You can't break the old ones. I know I have tried. Just the base models have the light slide. The Match, Stock and Elite have the old style heavy slide.

SHEEPDOG · Post by **SHEEPDOG** » 04 Dec 2010, 22:08

Do they send you there guns to torture test. I think all the 10mm Mfgs should have to submit their guns for a 90 day Jay test. :laugh:

Post by **blueorison** » 04 Dec 2010, 22:08

swe123 wrote:I have four Dan Wesson 10mms. Three are CBOBS one Point Man(full sized). The were dicontinued for 2010, but are back for 2011. You can still get 2009 nib, one on GB now. Dan Wessons are very, very tight. They need to be broken in with high viscosity lube. I am a huge DW fan. I think they make the best production 1911s available.IMHO They are hard to find because they only put out 4,000 guns per year compaired to kimbers 40,000. I have many Glock 20 and 29s I no longer shoot because I don't trust them. I am one of those people that think John Mosses Browning got it right. I shoot 1911 because life is to short to shoot ugly guns.
I'm sure Jay knows more about the EEAs, but they have been having slides cracking.

CompLETELY with you on the DW's. If I could afford one I'd get one. And although I agree with you on DW's, I do not care to own a 1911, it's just another well engineered and finely tuned (when smithed correctly) firearm to me.

The DW's have convinced me to get a 1911.

SHEEPDOG · Post by **SHEEPDOG** » 04 Dec 2010, 22:13

The nice thing is they are about half the price of Wilsons, Browns, Baers and Nighthawks with simular quality. I'll bring a few to play with.

Post by **blueorison** » 04 Dec 2010, 23:31

swe123 wrote:The nice thing is they are about half the price of Wilsons, Browns, Baers and Nighthawks with simular quality. I'll bring a few to play with.

I've shot Wilsons, Nighthawks, and many Baers. No clue what Browns are.

Weren't impressed with any. With custom 1911's I'm more impressed with the fact that they are singly tuned to actually work with all the parts to beautifully clicking in harmony.

However, past that very tedious basic fact (it's easier to get a 1911 wrong than right!), I look for cycle time and stroke cleanness, the balance of pressure it maintains throughout my stance and grip.

I find that the SIMPLEST 1911's WITHOUT all the highly-touted and acclimated "bells and whistles" runs the best and is my favourite kind. Besides a working gun, just make sure the ports are lowered and flared so I can reload the brass, and make sure they have good sights. I don't need extended what-nots and ported who-has But then I've always stuck with KISS platforms and taken training to the skill level at which the gun demands.

Just like Saiga's, people try to mod them too much and I always see them fail at 3 gun/multigun matches. Constantly fail. Over, and over. In fact, whenever they step up to the line I just wait for them to fail instead of actually paying attention to the shooting. It's for the fact that people get a gun and try to slap all this crap on there and mod it out to look cool and feel better about it, like it'll shoot better for them. That's one big issue that makes Saiga's fail. One or two essential modifications is all it MIGHT need. Not a plethora.

Can't wait to shoot your DW's. I will make sure to reimburse you for ammunition.

Post by **panzermk2** » 05 Dec 2010, 01:06

swe123 wrote:The nice thing is they are about half the price of Wilsons, Browns, Baers and Nighthawks with simular quality. I'll bring a few to play with.

Llagoud has a DW and loves it. It loves my 10mm ammo also.

PainKillaX · Post by **PainKillaX** » 05 Dec 2010, 01:26

blueorison wrote:
swe123 wrote:The nice thing is they are about half the price of Wilsons, Browns, Baers and Nighthawks with simular quality. I'll bring a few to play with.
I've shot Wilsons, Nighthawks, and many Baers. No clue what Browns are.

I think he means Ed Browns. Could be wrong though

SHEEPDOG · Post by **SHEEPDOG** » 05 Dec 2010, 10:24

Many of the parts in Dan Wessons are made by Ed Brown. They have no mim parts, if that is important to you. Few makers can say that.

Post by **Rapier1772** » 08 Dec 2010, 16:49

Just in time for Christmas :clap: There was a "gently used" DW SS CBOB on Gunbroker. Guess who got it

This Christmas is breaking the bank with me, I just bought a new rifle too :wall: Maybe I need to join a support group? Gun buyers anonymous? I definitely need to quit buying these things :facepalm:

SeaHawkDriver-B · Post by **SeaHawkDriver-B** » 08 Dec 2010, 17:18

I've never owned a CBOB, but I did have a TBOB when I was younger.

SHEEPDOG · Post by **SHEEPDOG** » 08 Dec 2010, 17:24

Rapier1772 wrote:Just in time for Christmas :clap: There was a "gently used" DW SS CBOB on Gunbroker. Guess who got it This Christmas is breaking the bank with me, I just bought a new rifle too :wall: Maybe I need to join a support group? Gun buyers anonymous? I definitely need to quit buying these things :facepalm:

Congratulations!

I hope you got a good deal. Prices on DW's have gone nuts. They are still worth it. The 10mm is back for 2011. I have an Aussi, and two two tones. I am waiting on one of the original "150" Razobacks.

LK45s · Post by **LK45s** » 08 Dec 2010, 17:29

Congratulations Rapier! My son has also got the sickness now. He found a 6" S&W 610 on Gun Broker that he just HAD to have. :laugh:

Rapier1772 wrote:Just in time for Christmas :clap: There was a "gently used" DW SS CBOB on Gunbroker. Guess who got it This Christmas is breaking the bank with me, I just bought a new rifle too :wall: Maybe I need to join a support group? Gun buyers anonymous? I definitely need to quit buying these things :facepalm:

Post by **Rapier1772** » 08 Dec 2010, 17:36

swe123 wrote:I hope you got a good deal. Prices on DW's have gone nuts.

I noticed that. Remember the new one I was whining about missing out on? It went for near $1500 on GB. This one, after shipping & FFL is still less that $1K. Didn't want to wait for a bidding war that would again take it over $1200, so I hit the BIN

He said I broke his 13yr record for how quickly he sold anything :laugh:

swe123 wrote:The 10mm is back for 2011.

SMEG! I would have preferred a new one (usually more shiner

) but oh well. The seller is an actual gun shop & has a guarantee on it so I should be good if anything isn't up to par.

Post by **Rapier1772** » 18 Dec 2010, 17:28

My new pistol came in today; a Dan Wesson 10mm CBOB in stainless steel. I was headed for the range w/the PTR when I got the call that the DW was in. By the time I got done getting it, the snow was coming down pretty hard so I headed to the other one (indoor)

Unfortunately, the DW doesn't like one of the mags & it doesn't want to lock open with either mag that came with it. But before I got crying to anyone, I am going to give it a good cleaning & buy some new mags. It is used & the springs in the old ones just may not be strong enough

fzr confused · Post by **fzr confused** » 18 Dec 2010, 18:41

pretty sexy

LK45s · Post by **LK45s** » 18 Dec 2010, 20:37

Congratulations Rapier!
It doesn't look too used. What ammo did you use?

Post by **Rapier1772** » 18 Dec 2010, 20:59

LK45s wrote:Congratulations Rapier!
It doesn't look too used. What ammo did you use?

Thanks. It is in pretty good condition. I used some SD ammo I still had in the truck from the EAA conversion fiasco :facepalm: Winchester 165gr Silvertip HP. Nobody has 10mm target rounds around here :wall: Unfortunately, I didn't mark the uncooperative mag well enough & now I have to go shoot it again to find out which mag is which. The one mag had no problems at all, the other was... well, like I said - uncooperative. :skep:

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 18 Dec 2010, 21:40

PainKillaX wrote:
blueorison wrote:
swe123 wrote:The nice thing is they are about half the price of Wilsons, Browns, Baers and Nighthawks with simular quality. I'll bring a few to play with.
I've shot Wilsons, Nighthawks, and many Baers. No clue what Browns are.
I think he means Ed Browns. Could be wrong though

I will make it simple for you: You pay more for a 1911 than you have to with a custom shop Kimber, you overpaid. Nothing outshoots a Custom Shop Kimber.

Post by **Cyberfly** » 20 Dec 2010, 06:38

Congrats Rapier.
I'm officially jealous.

SHEEPDOG · Post by **SHEEPDOG** » 20 Dec 2010, 06:48

Congrats rapier, looks like new. You got a good deal IMHO. Since the 10mm got dropped the prices went through the roof.I posted that the 10mm was back in 2011 i just wanted ya'll to know it wasn't gone forever. Now it looks like the 10mm will be on a limited production.

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 20 Dec 2010, 07:01

Rapier1772 wrote:My new pistol came in today; a Dan Wesson 10mm CBOB in stainless steel. I was headed for the range w/the PTR when I got the call that the DW was in. By the time I got done getting it, the snow was coming down pretty hard so I headed to the other one (indoor) Unfortunately, the DW doesn't like one of the mags & it doesn't want to lock open with either mag that came with it. But before I got crying to anyone, I am going to give it a good cleaning & buy some new mags. It is used & the springs in the old ones just may not be strong enough

Beautiful. So jealous.

SHEEPDOG · Post by **SHEEPDOG** » 20 Dec 2010, 07:09

Rapier1772 wrote:My new pistol came in today; a Dan Wesson 10mm CBOB in stainless steel. I was headed for the range w/the PTR when I got the call that the DW was in. By the time I got done getting it, the snow was coming down pretty hard so I headed to the other one (indoor) Unfortunately, the DW doesn't like one of the mags & it doesn't want to lock open with either mag that came with it. But before I got crying to anyone, I am going to give it a good cleaning & buy some new mags. It is used & the springs in the old ones just may not be strong enough

Tripp Research work well in mine. :thumb:

Post by **Rapier1772** » 20 Dec 2010, 09:44

swe123 wrote:Tripp Research work well in mine. :thumb:

The plastic base plate doesn't interfere? Looks like it sticks up into the magwell a bit

troy_mclure · Post by **troy_mclure** » 20 Dec 2010, 19:20

i often oc and ccw my dan wesson razorback 10mm.

for urban i use 165gr silver tips, for woods i use 180gr corbon hunters.

SHEEPDOG · Post by **SHEEPDOG** » 21 Dec 2010, 08:22

The Tripps stick out some. CMC mags work well also and they make a flush mags.

Post by **Rapier1772** » 21 Dec 2010, 19:35

I found out that the Kimber 10mm mags also work in the DW. Gun shop says any 10mm mag for the 1911 frame will work

Right now, it looks like the problem was my mag springs. I used the new Kimber mags & it is locking open consistently.

SHEEPDOG · Post by **SHEEPDOG** » 21 Dec 2010, 21:53

A suggestion is to lube with FP10 or I use mobil 1. The tight tolerances and stainless on stainless seems to work better with higher viscosity oils. I ran mine the first time with rem oil, fired 3 rounds and locked up tight as a drum.

fzr confused · Post by **fzr confused** » 22 Dec 2010, 10:18

I've seen a lot people use and suggest mobil1 on here, but what weight? Thanks

variable · Post by **variable** » 30 Dec 2010, 19:09

panzermk2 wrote:
Rapier1772 wrote:I found a guy who is willing to sell me his used S&W 1076 for $650. Its in good condition but not 'mint' condition. Here's the rub - he says it is the FBI version but it has a mag safety on it; I researched it & found the FBI models are not supposed to have that. I checked gun broker but they don't have any 1076s for sale one way or the other. Anyone know how much the non-FBI version should go for these days? I searched the web & couldn't find a recent price, doesn't help that I gave my gun value book away either :wall:

That gun is a steal and a great deal for that price. I have seen them sell for double that. These are rare as hens teeth and demand the most money from S&W 10mm collectors.

The 1076 was adopted by the FBI. It was available in two versions. One (the commercial version) had the traditional S&W magazine dis connector, where the firearm WOULD NOT go bang if the mag were dropped out in a situation where an officer were fighting to retain possession, and needed to disable the gun. The FBI not-for-retail version did not have the mag disconnect. Presumably the agents required a "live gun" at ALL times and had S&W remove this feature. FBI refurbished guns are available to the public now, and are easily spotted by the inscription on the slide, "CAUTION: CAPABLE OF FIRING WITH MAGAZINE REMOVED"

The 1076 is a reasonably compact, reliable, gun that caused a small number of S&W frame decocker models to follow, no doubt S&W hoped to get a toehold into the frame decocker market.

The 1076 was Manufactured 1990-1993, there were still some available into 1994 new in box. Re-Furbished FBI models were offered through 1996.

Late but:

I removed my magazine safety by removing the rear sight and pulling out the plastic plug and spring.

It now fires without a magazine in it.

I am still waiting for Vltor to release the improved Bren 10!

http://vltor.wordpress.com/

V
OUT

SeaHawkDriver-B · Post by **SeaHawkDriver-B** » 31 Dec 2010, 08:20

I think I'm going to buy an EAA Witness Elite Match in 10mm and start woods carrying with that instead of my G20.

SHEEPDOG · Post by **SHEEPDOG** » 31 Dec 2010, 23:56

panzermk2 wrote:
swe123 wrote:The nice thing is they are about half the price of Wilsons, Browns, Baers and Nighthawks with simular quality. I'll bring a few to play with.

Llagoud has a DW and loves it. It loves my 10mm ammo also.

Mine does too , but I can't ever find the brass.

remat457 · Post by **remat457** » 01 Jan 2011, 14:45

Looks like EAA will be bringing in another CZ-type 10mm, this one from Turkey. Supposed to be available in Feb.

troy_mclure · Post by **troy_mclure** » 01 Jan 2011, 21:53

variable wrote:
panzermk2 wrote:
Rapier1772 wrote:I found a guy who is willing to sell me his used S&W 1076 for $650. Its in good condition but not 'mint' condition. Here's the rub - he says it is the FBI version but it has a mag safety on it; I researched it & found the FBI models are not supposed to have that. I checked gun broker but they don't have any 1076s for sale one way or the other. Anyone know how much the non-FBI version should go for these days? I searched the web & couldn't find a recent price, doesn't help that I gave my gun value book away either :wall:

That gun is a steal and a great deal for that price. I have seen them sell for double that. These are rare as hens teeth and demand the most money from S&W 10mm collectors.

The 1076 was adopted by the FBI. It was available in two versions. One (the commercial version) had the traditional S&W magazine dis connector, where the firearm WOULD NOT go bang if the mag were dropped out in a situation where an officer were fighting to retain possession, and needed to disable the gun. The FBI not-for-retail version did not have the mag disconnect. Presumably the agents required a "live gun" at ALL times and had S&W remove this feature. FBI refurbished guns are available to the public now, and are easily spotted by the inscription on the slide, "CAUTION: CAPABLE OF FIRING WITH MAGAZINE REMOVED"

The 1076 is a reasonably compact, reliable, gun that caused a small number of S&W frame decocker models to follow, no doubt S&W hoped to get a toehold into the frame decocker market.

The 1076 was Manufactured 1990-1993, there were still some available into 1994 new in box. Re-Furbished FBI models were offered through 1996.

I am still waiting for Vltor to release the improved Bren 10!

http://vltor.wordpress.com/

V
OUT

never gonna happen, ive been watching for years, its issue after issue.

Post by **Cyberfly** » 03 Jan 2011, 00:23

remat457 wrote:Looks like EAA will be bringing in another CZ-type 10mm, this one from Turkey. Supposed to be available in Feb.

Well, I can't say as to what the fit and finish of THIS particular weapon will be, but I can say for sure that the Tanfoglio Italian made Witness Match models are worth every penny.
I'm thinking very seriously of picking up another after tax rebate season. :ponder:

Post by **Rapier1772** » 24 Jun 2011, 20:35

Think I should change my recoil spring in my CBOB. I know they use Wolff springs but not sure what rating. I'm not sure which one is on it now, but its pretty stiff.
Would a 22lb be ok or should I go a bit higher?

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 24 Jun 2011, 20:41

In a commander sized 1911 10mm, 22 lbs is plenty.

Post by **blueorison** » 24 Jun 2011, 21:16

IMO that's a bit too high of lb for a shorter slide. 20 is more than fine.

Post by **Rapier1772** » 24 Jun 2011, 21:22

Thanks. I think the current spring is a 22 but since I bought it used, I don't know for certain - just know its stiffer than anything else I have right now :laugh:

Post by **blueorison** » 24 Jun 2011, 21:33

Nevermind I thought it was .45.

Post by **Rapier1772** » 24 Jun 2011, 22:04

blueorison wrote:Nevermind I thought it was .45.

I understand... The big "10mm CCW" title at the top of the thread throws everyone off :facepalm: :p

Post by **panzermk2** » 25 Jun 2011, 11:46

Rapier1772 wrote:
blueorison wrote:Nevermind I thought it was .45.
I understand... The big "10mm CCW" title at the top of the thread throws everyone off :facepalm: :p

:lmao: :lmao:

SHEEPDOG · Post by **SHEEPDOG** » 25 Jun 2011, 12:05

Rapier1772 wrote:Think I should change my recoil spring in my CBOB. I know they use Wolff springs but not sure what rating. I'm not sure which one is on it now, but its pretty stiff.
Would a 22lb be ok or should I go a bit higher?

According to Keith at Dan Wesson the standard spring weight of a 10mm DW Commander is 22lbs.

Post by **Rapier1772** » 25 Jun 2011, 18:09

SHEEPDOG wrote:
Rapier1772 wrote:Think I should change my recoil spring in my CBOB. I know they use Wolff springs but not sure what rating. I'm not sure which one is on it now, but its pretty stiff.
Would a 22lb be ok or should I go a bit higher?
According to Keith at Dan Wesson the standard spring weight of a 10mm DW Commander is 22lbs.

Great, I'll stick with that then, thanks. I also have to order a new spring for my Kimber, it's been stove piping recently & it didn't used to do that :wall: Midway should love me by now :laugh: :facepalm:

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 25 Jun 2011, 19:00

How many round do you have through it? Might have a bad extractor spring. Some of the non custom shop models have that problem around the 1000 round mark.

Post by **Rapier1772** » 25 Jun 2011, 19:21

This is a Kimber Custom - I've put around 400-500 rounds through it I think

I bought it used, he said he didn't put many through it. I'll change the recoil spring & if that doesn't work then I'll contact kimber I guess

Tachycardia · Post by **Tachycardia** » 25 Jun 2011, 19:29

How is the recoil on these compact 10's?

SHEEPDOG · Post by **SHEEPDOG** » 26 Jun 2011, 18:03

Compared to a 45 it is a little snappy. The feeling is exuberayting! If you are a Competition shooter used to half loaded 9mm's it will be quite noticeable. :p

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