Ok, back to my thread about my impending 1911 build....

Discuss the variety of handguns out there.
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ArtosDracon
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Ok, back to my thread about my impending 1911 build....

Post by ArtosDracon » 20 Aug 2008, 10:06

I've been doing a lot more research and bout a pair of books on building/modifying the 1911 by Jerry Kuhnhausen and read them in the two days the forum was down. I'm starting to think that I have most of the stools and metalworking skills to build one from scratch if I really take my time. Also, I e-mailed Sarco about a quote on a bunch of items and shipping on sunday and still haven't heard back. WTF? I'm also thinking of getting an STI that SGC has for $600 that already has a lot of the features I want, and just modifying it and fitting it a little better, doing the caliber change from .45 to .357Sig by replacing the entire slide/barrel/recoil spring ass./firing pin ass. and keeping the .45 as a swap out if I want it so I can have both calibers. If I spend the time to fit the new slide to the frame I should be able to use both as direct swap.

Writing out makes it sound a lot more ambitious than it did in my head... :?

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Re: Ok, back to my thread about my impending 1911 build....

Post by Rapier1772 » 20 Aug 2008, 13:05

Build one from scratch? Guess I missed that before the forum's KB. WAY too ambitious for me. I'm enough of a time trying to fit my light into the forend of the FS2K :oops: Good luck
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Re: Ok, back to my thread about my impending 1911 build....

Post by Asylum Knight » 20 Aug 2008, 13:10

I am interested in why you would drop to a .357SIG from .45? Less recoil?

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Re: Ok, back to my thread about my impending 1911 build....

Post by ArtosDracon » 23 Aug 2008, 00:12

Asylum Knight wrote:I am interested in why you would drop to a .357SIG from .45? Less recoil?
I like it for the combination of accuracy, stopping power and capacity. Stopping power is almost identical to the .45 in the rounds I've used but accuracy is slightly tighter our of the same length barrel and qutie deffinately has a flatter trajectory and carries 1-3 more rounds than .45 in the same weapon. Kick and muzzlejump are also lower which puts me back on target faster. Re-loading with a necked round is always harder but, I'd rather go ahead a pay a bit more for the ammo itself and be more comfortable in handling the firearm.

If you're not totally familiar, .357Sig is .40SW necked down to use a .355/.356 bullet which is the same size as all of the .38/.380, 9mm and .357 rounds but, the necked case allows much higher velocities, to the tune of up to ~1500fps which generates massive stopping power with 185-215gr bullets. .40SW and .45 do use heavier bullets but are also massively slower. 9mm I've seen max out around 500ft/lbs, .357Sig ~650, .40SW ~560, 10mm ~730, .45 ~650, .50AE ~1600. Please note that these are all of a single brand and are all equivalent hollow point bullets that i have on hand. I won't say what brand as they're not a contributor here and they don't make 5.7x28mm rounds. I'll just say they're a publicly available and rather common brand, they are not custom loads though I'm sure each has been factory tuned to perform at the peak of the rounds ability, atleast they better for the price I'm paying for them.

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Re: Ok, back to my thread about my impending 1911 build....

Post by ArtosDracon » 23 Aug 2008, 00:22

In an update, I was finally forced to use my 5-7 on the job yesterday and was thoroughly impressed, the capacity really is just the defining factor for this round. I decided i'll keep my pair of glocks on hand for duty when I need them and this 1911 will just be for tinkering and range use so time and money have gone out the window. In talking with my smith, he suggested that I start with a functional firearm, regaurdless of the rest of the condition, so long as it fires, and assemble, dissassemble, repeat and continually check function after each step to ensure it's running as it's supposed to as I go so i can see in steps how it's reacting and what I feel all needs to be done as i get into it. Any takes on this process?

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Re: Ok, back to my thread about my impending 1911 build....

Post by Asylum Knight » 23 Aug 2008, 13:17

ArtosDracon wrote:
Asylum Knight wrote:I am interested in why you would drop to a .357SIG from .45? Less recoil?
I like it for the combination of accuracy, stopping power and capacity. Stopping power is almost identical to the .45 in the rounds I've used but accuracy is slightly tighter our of the same length barrel and qutie deffinately has a flatter trajectory and carries 1-3 more rounds than .45 in the same weapon. Kick and muzzlejump are also lower which puts me back on target faster. Re-loading with a necked round is always harder but, I'd rather go ahead a pay a bit more for the ammo itself and be more comfortable in handling the firearm.

If you're not totally familiar, .357Sig is .40SW necked down to use a .355/.356 bullet which is the same size as all of the .38/.380, 9mm and .357 rounds but, the necked case allows much higher velocities, to the tune of up to ~1500fps which generates massive stopping power with 185-215gr bullets. .40SW and .45 do use heavier bullets but are also massively slower. 9mm I've seen max out around 500ft/lbs, .357Sig ~650, .40SW ~560, 10mm ~730, .45 ~650, .50AE ~1600. Please note that these are all of a single brand and are all equivalent hollow point bullets that i have on hand. I won't say what brand as they're not a contributor here and they don't make 5.7x28mm rounds. I'll just say they're a publicly available and rather common brand, they are not custom loads though I'm sure each has been factory tuned to perform at the peak of the rounds ability, atleast they better for the price I'm paying for them.
Thanks for the detailed information. I did not realize the .357SIG had such punch behind it. Now I sure as hell know to RUN if I ever get assaulted with a desert eagle, :laugh: .

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Re: Ok, back to my thread about my impending 1911 build....

Post by ArtosDracon » 23 Aug 2008, 17:26

Yeah, .50AE is a scary round, I refuse to carry it regardless of it's stopping power due entirely to Newtons first law of physics.

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Re: Ok, back to my thread about my impending 1911 build....

Post by Grantness » 23 Aug 2008, 17:30

u have the extended mags in?

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Re: Ok, back to my thread about my impending 1911 build....

Post by ArtosDracon » 23 Aug 2008, 17:58

Nope, just use the factory 20's generally, I was in CA for this job though so it was 10's this time around. In the future if forced to operate in california I'll be carrying my G35 in .357. If forced to have only 10 rounds to a mag I'm going to need them to pack a little more punch. The 5.7 got the job done, without question but, I did utter, "come on, come around the door" more than once.

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Re: Ok, back to my thread about my impending 1911 build....

Post by eccvets » 26 Aug 2008, 17:31

ArtosDracon wrote:Nope, just use the factory 20's generally, I was in CA for this job though so it was 10's this time around. In the future if forced to operate in california I'll be carrying my G35 in .357. If forced to have only 10 rounds to a mag I'm going to need them to pack a little more punch. The 5.7 got the job done, without question but, I did utter, "come on, come around the door" more than once.

Wait, so you use your 5-7 against a bad guy? I'm intrested in how well it did as a defensive round as I have heard a lot of conflicting things (everything from nobody has ever survived a center mass hit with one to it's a .22mag and you gotta hit every major organ to do any damage) as it seems like compared with a G35/.357, it's not so good. Seems like it is not a good primary weapon to use compared with other rounds... Would you suggest the 5-7 if you could carry the full 20 rounds? I mean if you really do need the extra 10 rounds to protect yourself... IDK if I would rely on my 5-7 for anything but target pratice. I don't wanna really make this about a 5.7X28 vs other caliber thread but they do say a single .45 will stop someone and it sounds like you needed 10+ 5.7X28 to do the job.

BTW: Arn't law enforcement officers able to use 20 round mags in California? I though there was a list on the old forums about which goverment agencies which were using them and I wouldn't think that police officers would be restricted to the 10 round mag cap.

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Re: Ok, back to my thread about my impending 1911 build....

Post by ArtosDracon » 26 Aug 2008, 23:17

eccvets wrote:
ArtosDracon wrote:Nope, just use the factory 20's generally, I was in CA for this job though so it was 10's this time around. In the future if forced to operate in california I'll be carrying my G35 in .357. If forced to have only 10 rounds to a mag I'm going to need them to pack a little more punch. The 5.7 got the job done, without question but, I did utter, "come on, come around the door" more than once.

Wait, so you use your 5-7 against a bad guy? I'm intrested in how well it did as a defensive round as I have heard a lot of conflicting things (everything from nobody has ever survived a center mass hit with one to it's a .22mag and you gotta hit every major organ to do any damage) as it seems like compared with a G35/.357, it's not so good. Seems like it is not a good primary weapon to use compared with other rounds... Would you suggest the 5-7 if you could carry the full 20 rounds? I mean if you really do need the extra 10 rounds to protect yourself... IDK if I would rely on my 5-7 for anything but target pratice. I don't wanna really make this about a 5.7X28 vs other caliber thread but they do say a single .45 will stop someone and it sounds like you needed 10+ 5.7X28 to do the job.

BTW: Arn't law enforcement officers able to use 20 round mags in California? I though there was a list on the old forums about which goverment agencies which were using them and I wouldn't think that police officers would be restricted to the 10 round mag cap.
Take a gander at my thread about stated recent encounter over at http://57forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=192" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; It has about as much information as I can release for liability sake until the full investigation is complete and any charges that may arise are settled.

Speaking entirely in theoretical limits, the force enacted on a target by a bullet varies by both weight of the round and it's speed, measured either in joules of Ft/LBS. That tells a large part of the story, and with the rounds I was limited to, I was getting about 270ft/lbs which, to be quite frank is somewhere between a .380 and 9mm. Luckily, that doesn't tell the entire story. Anyone who's ever had to fire a gun in self defense knows that there is A LOT of adrenaline and that you really only have time to think one thought, if you take the time for a second, they're already pulling the trigger and you're dead. That makes confidence in your weapon and in your ability more important the the weapon itself. I choose to carry the FsN because I know i can put it on target and get that crucial first shot off quickly, I know I can keep it on target for subsequent shots and I know that the human body is pretty fragile, a hot piece of lead flying into your body with 270lbs of force is going to do a lot more than just get your attention.

Does the G35 in .357 have more brute force power, yes. Hands down. Unfortunately Newtons first law of physics dictates that it's also going to have much more recoil and muzzle jump because of that extra brute force. I can get it on target just as easily but, subsequent shots take about 60% longer per shot with it due to the extra recoil and muzzle jump. That number is going to vary wildly depending on the person and the weapon but, that's my measured times with the FsN versus my G35. My G17 is only about 18% slower for me to fire than the FsN for a point of reference and my XD 40 is about 30% slower. I like the ability to get off the shots I need as fast as I can. Finally, capacity does go a LONG way. Especially in tactical situations. I fired more than 30 rounds that day, inside about 3 minutes, on two floors and in a stairwell.

Finally, round selection is extremely important. I think i took that for granted up until a couple days ago as this was my first situation with the FsN and I've always had top notch rounds for the other calibers I've used. I'm not saying that SS197 is a bad round, in any way, but I won't be carrying it into a situation like that again, period.

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Re: Ok, back to my thread about my impending 1911 build....

Post by eccvets » 27 Aug 2008, 00:35

Thanks for the info here (couldn't get in to the other thread/forum, it says I'm not allowed). On another subject on the same topic, I was wondering if you had to reload your mags and how that went. If you did, did you find it hard to reload this round in this type of mag quickly (I've never had to reload a rifle or this type of mag before when it counted so I have no idea how hard it would be or if that even came in to play). I've never really had any trouble reloading before and have always though it to be very simple and amaziningly easy but I have always had the luxery of time on my side to where I could make sure the rounds were pushed in and all pushed all the way to the rear. Any info would be great.

thanks



BTW: I found this at wikipedia, Ballistic performance
Bullet weight/type Velocity Energy
32 gr (2.1 g) SS190 AP FMJ 716 m/s (2,350 ft/s) 529 J (390 ft·lbf)
55 gr (3.6 g) SS193 FMJ BT 305 m/s (1,000 ft/s) 163 J (120 ft·lbf)
28 gr (1.8 g) SS195LF JHP 701 m/s (2,300 ft/s) 393 J (290 ft·lbf)
40 gr (2.6 g) SS197SR JHP 594 m/s (1,950 ft/s) 461 J (340 ft·lbf)
Test barrel length: 263 mm (10.35 in)


It might have been in the other thread I was not able to access but I assume you were using the 197sr during this encounter so would you have had 340 ft·lbf rather then 290 ft·lbf? I was a bit confused about that because you said you would never use the 197 round again in this capacity and though perhaps you ment the 195. (just trying to match up the ft·lbf to the bullet in question).





Take a gander at my thread about stated recent encounter over at http://57forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=192" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; It has about as much information as I can release for liability sake until the full investigation is complete and any charges that may arise are settled.

Speaking entirely in theoretical limits, the force enacted on a target by a bullet varies by both weight of the round and it's speed, measured either in joules of Ft/LBS. That tells a large part of the story, and with the rounds I was limited to, I was getting about 270ft/lbs which, to be quite frank is somewhere between a .380 and 9mm. Luckily, that doesn't tell the entire story. Anyone who's ever had to fire a gun in self defense knows that there is A LOT of adrenaline and that you really only have time to think one thought, if you take the time for a second, they're already pulling the trigger and you're dead. That makes confidence in your weapon and in your ability more important the the weapon itself. I choose to carry the FsN because I know i can put it on target and get that crucial first shot off quickly, I know I can keep it on target for subsequent shots and I know that the human body is pretty fragile, a hot piece of lead flying into your body with 270lbs of force is going to do a lot more than just get your attention.

Does the G35 in .357 have more brute force power, yes. Hands down. Unfortunately Newtons first law of physics dictates that it's also going to have much more recoil and muzzle jump because of that extra brute force. I can get it on target just as easily but, subsequent shots take about 60% longer per shot with it due to the extra recoil and muzzle jump. That number is going to vary wildly depending on the person and the weapon but, that's my measured times with the FsN versus my G35. My G17 is only about 18% slower for me to fire than the FsN for a point of reference and my XD 40 is about 30% slower. I like the ability to get off the shots I need as fast as I can. Finally, capacity does go a LONG way. Especially in tactical situations. I fired more than 30 rounds that day, inside about 3 minutes, on two floors and in a stairwell.

Finally, round selection is extremely important. I think i took that for granted up until a couple days ago as this was my first situation with the FsN and I've always had top notch rounds for the other calibers I've used. I'm not saying that SS197 is a bad round, in any way, but I won't be carrying it into a situation like that again, period.[/quote]

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Re: Ok, back to my thread about my impending 1911 build....

Post by ArtosDracon » 27 Aug 2008, 00:45

eccvets wrote:Thanks for the info here (couldn't get in to the other thread/forum, it says I'm not allowed). On another subject on the same topic, I was wondering if you had to reload your mags and how that went. If you did, did you find it hard to reload this round in this type of mag quickly (I've never had to reload a rifle or this type of mag before when it counted so I have no idea how hard it would be or if that even came in to play). I've never really had any trouble reloading before and have always though it to be very simple and amaziningly easy but I have always had the luxery of time on my side to where I could make sure the rounds were pushed in and all pushed all the way to the rear. Any info would be great.

thanks
I did not have to reload magazines, that is one situation I avoid as best I can. The mags reload pretty easily but, it is quite time consuming. This time around I had the FsN in a drop thigh rig that held one extra mag and a double mag pouch behind my left hip. I do have a second double mag pouch that I sometimes where as well. The mag pouch is actually large enough to hold more than two mags in smaller calibers. It will holdabout 8 mags for my P230 and four for my G17. I wish it were just a tad bit larger as it will almost hold four for my G35 but, you can't get one out without pulling both and in a tense situation, I'd be liable to drop the second one ripping the first one out so I wear a seperate tripple I got just for it that's similar in size.

I forgot the location of the other thread. I'll have to pull together a write up that's less strewn with indignation for the FsN forum when everything is said and done.

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Re: Ok, back to my thread about my impending 1911 build....

Post by flyingirish04 » 27 Aug 2008, 12:10

357 Sig is an impressive round, but I am still a 10mm guy. I don't mind the slight increase in recoil.

Dito on your thoughts of the Deagle.
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Re: Ok, back to my thread about my impending 1911 build....

Post by ArtosDracon » 28 Aug 2008, 07:10

flyingirish04 wrote:Dito on your thoughts of the Deagle.
It's perfect for bear country. I'd probably trust a real hot 10mm load but, better safe than sorry.

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Re: Ok, back to my thread about my impending 1911 build....

Post by ArtosDracon » 30 Aug 2008, 00:17

This project is on hold for anyone that's curious, the bad thing about getting laid up for a month in my line of work is that the money stops coming in too. Should be back on top of things and on this project in the first part of 2009.

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