New Kel-Tec PMR-30 Purchase, for just one purpose...

Website · Post by **jgreenberg01** » 08 Jun 2011, 15:11

Ok, I'm pretty sure I am out of my mind - I mean money doesn't grow on trees, right?

I was discussing the merits of the 5.7 round on another board when the .22mag comparison came up. Now these guys are all about the FBI penetration standards and will listen to no other arguments (well sort of). It was a very long, yet civil back and forth and I offered to send them some 5.7 rounds to test. Well they didn't have a 5.7 platform and I ended up agreeing to meet them half way.

On July 16th we are going to meet in SC and do testing of SS197, ProtecTOR, S5 & S4M rounds into ballistics gel. Additionally we will shoot through denim into gel & meat. Other barriers will be tested as well and of course it will all be chronographed.

I bought the PMR-30 so that the .22WMR can be tested alongside through a 4" barrel - no more rifle to pistol comparisons.

All of this will be on video along with a full report within 2 days of the testing.

Now I just have to figure out what part of my safe to leave this new addition in because after the testing, I'm not sure when/where I'd use it. By the way, first impressions: The PMR-30 is LIGHT, I mean it really feels like a toy. Also the construction is not exactly top notch - you can see (and feel) the seams where the frame was welded together. Maybe my impression will change after I shoot it, we'll see...

Prepper · Post by **Prepper** » 08 Jun 2011, 15:21

I have a 30 round mag that is made to look like an extension of the FsN grip if you want to borrow it.

Post by **Rapier1772** » 08 Jun 2011, 15:25

You bought a PMR just for this test?
Maybe you should've contacted nutnfancy & borrowed his :laugh: The only thing I've heard about them is that they jam a lot?

Can't really fault you for buying it though - I bought a .22 pistol just to teach someone how to shoot & I haven't heard from him since I got it. Maybe because I told him he'd have to buy his own ammo? :laugh:

Anyway, I'm looking forward to the reports... & the converts

PainKillaX · Post by **PainKillaX** » 08 Jun 2011, 15:30

I am seriously looking forward to this.

Buffman · Post by **Buffman** » 08 Jun 2011, 16:25

Could have just pointed them to brass fetchers... 22WMR can penetrate 12" from even a snubby barrel but it's cavity isn't very big at all.

fzr confused · Post by **fzr confused** » 08 Jun 2011, 17:53

What's wrong with buying a gun for just this test? I bought a bolt action .22 because the 50rd box of sub sonics I was given wouldn't cycle my 10/22 lol. You will find other uses for this gun too. The best thing to use this gun for is practice...and by practice I mean jam clearing practice :p

MikeSantor · Post by **MikeSantor** » 08 Jun 2011, 18:20

My brother in law works for Knight armament as an engineer. Supposedly its right down the street from Kel. He was in last week for a family wedding and we were talking about it. He says he has been in there facility and seen a lot of there stuff and it is pretty low quality/ bad tolerance stuff. interesting stuff...

Website · Post by **jgreenberg01** » 08 Jun 2011, 18:53

MikeSantor wrote:My brother in law works for Knight armament as an engineer. Supposedly its right down the street from Kel. He was in last week for a family wedding and we were talking about it. He says he has been in there facility and seen a lot of there stuff and it is pretty low quality/ bad tolerance stuff. interesting stuff...

I think he may be correct. I have not even shot the gun yet and just in handling it, working the slide... I don't see this thing standing up to any serious use. I could be wrong, but I'll be surprised if I am. Either way, time will tell...

cHaMeLeoN352 · Post by **cHaMeLeoN352** » 08 Jun 2011, 22:27

It will be interesting to see the results!

The one thing I didn't like about the Kel-tec when I handled it at a show, was the magazine release on the bottom of the grip. This was inconvenient and slow for reloads.

I expect the 22 mag to perform well, with good penetration and minimal cavity damage, but be outperformed by the 5.7 in both categories, with devastating wound channels in comparison.

Post by **blueorison** » 10 Jun 2011, 23:44

Please be careful, Greenberg, and do not let the PMR KB on you.

Thanks.

Website · Post by **jgreenberg01** » 11 Jun 2011, 13:01

You guys are doing wonders for my confidence level... :ponder:

Bones · Post by **Bones** » 11 Jun 2011, 13:37

jgreenberg01 wrote:You guys are doing wonders for my confidence level... :ponder:

Drinking usually helps :lmao:

Mister Freeze · Post by **Mister Freeze** » 11 Jun 2011, 15:10

MikeSantor wrote:My brother in law works for Knight armament as an engineer. Supposedly its right down the street from Kel. He was in last week for a family wedding and we were talking about it. He says he has been in there facility and seen a lot of there stuff and it is pretty low quality/ bad tolerance stuff. interesting stuff...

Don't tell me that! I've been saving up all year for a KSG! Unfortunately, I'll be spending all that $ on motorcycle repairs this week

all in the hopes of better gas mileage

VeTTeMaNC486 · Post by **VeTTeMaNC486** » 11 Jun 2011, 21:45

Interesting. Where in SC?? If it is near by I can take off work and bring my ps90 and we can do rifle vs rifle while we are at it, if you and the other parties would be interested.

Be prepared, people will believe what they want to believe. If the facts do not support what they believe, they will find some way to discredit and/or distort them and continue on being ignorant/stupid. .22mag vs 5.7mm comparison is absolutely terrible. Thats like .45 auto vs .454 casull. Larger capacity case running at higher pressure. No need to argue about this as the more powerful of the two is obvious.

Website · Post by **jgreenberg01** » 12 Jun 2011, 04:33

VeTTeMaNC486 wrote:Interesting. Where in SC?? If it is near by I can take off work and bring my ps90 and we can do rifle vs rifle while we are at it, if you and the other parties would be interested.

Be prepared, people will believe what they want to believe. If the facts do not support what they believe, they will find some way to discredit and/or distort them and continue on being ignorant/stupid. .22mag vs 5.7mm comparison is absolutely terrible. Thats like .45 auto vs .454 casull. Larger capacity case running at higher pressure. No need to argue about this as the more powerful of the two is obvious.

I agree, naysayers will always want to argue out of ignorance. If I can create at least one convert... great. If not - shooting stuff is fun, and there will be a lot of guns there to shoot stuff with!

PM sent.

Website · Post by **jgreenberg01** » 15 Jun 2011, 10:44

Well I had an interesting session at the range with the PMR-30 and while this is my 1st Kel-Tec and it's a sampling on just one gun... I'm inclined to believe the quality issues expressed earlier in this thread.

Here is my video review for those that have 18 minutes to spare...

I'm going to put some more rounds through it prior to the big test on July 16 and hope it doesn't go kaboom on me. Along with the .22WMR, we'll be testing SS190s and EA's: ProtecTOR, S5, PenetraTOR and S4Ms. I'll post the videos & supporting data in the EA forum within a week of the tests.

Post by **panzermk2** » 15 Jun 2011, 11:21

Vids perfect, great review!

Gramaton Cleric · Post by **Gramaton Cleric** » 15 Jun 2011, 15:53

Awesome! Im looking forward to the test as well! It never ceases to amaze me; about peoples lack of faith in the 5.7

Post by **blueorison** » 15 Jun 2011, 16:16

I am very apathetic towards people's like or dislike towards the FsN and the round it fires.

The general public is horridly insecure and always are searching for reassurance for any platform and caliber they own. Most of them are highly incapable of even placing the rounds where it counts, making the argument to whether the platform or caliber is effective completely null.

Those that do not like the FsN or the 5.7x28mm are no different.

More ammunition for us, when they don't purchase the platform.

Website · Post by **jgreenberg01** » 15 Jun 2011, 16:33

Blue: always looking on the bright side of irrationality!

Personally speaking, I have no problem with speaking ill of a gun I own. If I can't shoot accurately with it, it's either user error, a bad match for me or as in the case of this PMR-30...

I tryly believe it's a new platform with some serious bugs that need to be worked out. I've sold/traded guns I didn't like and I may do that at some point with this gun. My challenge now is to not let this experience sour me towards Kel-Tec because the RFB and KSG look damn sexy to me.

As far as the 5.7 naysayers... I don't take it personally, but I wouldn't mind converting one or two of them from the dark side. I suppose it's just one of those things that would give me a personal sense of satisfaction. Besides, one or two converts won't limit our ammo supply :laugh:

Tachycardia · Post by **Tachycardia** » 15 Jun 2011, 17:06

Good video, thanks for all the work you put in on this

VeTTeMaNC486 · Post by **VeTTeMaNC486** » 16 Jun 2011, 06:43

jgreenberg01 wrote:Blue: always looking on the bright side of irrationality!

Personally speaking, I have no problem with speaking ill of a gun I own. If I can't shoot accurately with it, it's either user error, a bad match for me or as in the case of this PMR-30...

I tryly believe it's a new platform with some serious bugs that need to be worked out. I've sold/traded guns I didn't like and I may do that at some point with this gun. My challenge now is to not let this experience sour me towards Kel-Tec because the RFB and KSG look damn sexy to me.

As far as the 5.7 naysayers... I don't take it personally, but I wouldn't mind converting one or two of them from the dark side. I suppose it's just one of those things that would give me a personal sense of satisfaction. Besides, one or two converts won't limit our ammo supply :laugh:

Id love to get my hands on a RFB

Have only seen one every in person though and they wanted like 1600 or 1700 for it

Website · Post by **jgreenberg01** » 20 Jun 2011, 14:25

*** UPDATE ***

I took it to the range again today and put 250 more rounds through it to see if there would be any improvement with use, 100 were CCI Maxi-Mag 40gr HPs and 150 were the JHP version. I keep hearing from KT enthusiasts that it takes 500+ rounds to get a reduction in failures. The gun is now up to 350 rounds. Here were the results:

Failures: 49 in 250 rounds

Keyholes (HP): 22 in 100 rounds

Keyholes (FMJ): 2 in 150 rounds

Accuracy: approx 2" groups which is a vast improvement over the 6" spread from first 100 rounds.

Most of the errors seemed to be caused by the rounds not being able to make the slide cycle correctly although there were a substantial number of failures to extract.

So it seems that it went from 7% failures in the first 100 rounds to 19.6% failures in rounds 101 through 350, while the accuracy actually improved. Interesting. It definitely keyholes a LOT more with the hollow point rounds as compared to the FMJs. All of the ammo was the one recommended ny Kel-Tec.

I'll put a link to the video when youtube gets the thing uploaded just in case anyone wants to sit through 14 minutes of shooting, well 14 minutes of trying to shoot the damn thing.

I'll keep posting updates and videos as more rounds go down range. We'll see if the Kel-Techies are correct in that the failures stop after billions of rounds...

fzr confused · Post by **fzr confused** » 20 Jun 2011, 16:17

I am not a kel-tec fanboy, but the 3 I have all function flawlessly. None of mine are this gun though. I have a sub-2000 .40 with prob 1500 rounds through it, a p-11 with a few hundred and a p3at with about 150 though it. Not all kel-tecs suck, but this one seems to have it's flaws

57js · Post by **57js** » 20 Jun 2011, 16:40

jgreenberg01 wrote:*** UPDATE ***

I took it to the range again today and put 250 more rounds through it to see if there would be any improvement with use, 100 were CCI Maxi-Mag 40gr HPs and 150 were the JHP version. I keep hearing from KT enthusiasts that it takes 500+ rounds to get a reduction in failures. The gun is now up to 350 rounds. Here were the results:

Failures: 49 in 250 rounds

Keyholes (HP): 22 in 100 rounds

Keyholes (FMJ): 2 in 150 rounds

Accuracy: approx 2" groups which is a vast improvement over the 6" spread from first 100 rounds.

Most of the errors seemed to be caused by the rounds not being able to make the slide cycle correctly although there were a substantial number of failures to extract.

So it seems that it went from 7% failures in the first 100 rounds to 19.6% failures in rounds 101 through 350, while the accuracy actually improved. Interesting. It definitely keyholes a LOT more with the hollow point rounds as compared to the FMJs. All of the ammo was the one recommended ny Kel-Tec.

I'll put a link to the video when youtube gets the thing uploaded just in case anyone wants to sit through 14 minutes of shooting, well 14 minutes of trying to shoot the damn thing.

I'll keep posting updates and videos as more rounds go down range. We'll see if the Kel-Techies are correct in that the failures stop after billions of rounds...

I haven't shot a Kel-Tec before, but this is a real problem. Hopefully the enthusiasts are correct that the problems will go down once you hit 500 rounds. Have you tried different rounds by another manufacturer?

I remember many people here tell people who just bought the FsN that it takes a few hundred rounds to really break in this gun. Thankfully while that is true, there is usually only a few issues until broken in until there is usually no problems.

Website · Post by **jgreenberg01** » 20 Jun 2011, 18:09

My FsN had only one failure in the first 500 rounds. It was literally the first round through it and it was a FTF. I probably didn't let the slide slam home hard enough.

I've only used CCI ammo which is the one that Kel-Tec recommends. Ironically enough, they claim that other brands may not cycle the slide properly.

Nickf150fx4 · Post by **Nickf150fx4** » 20 Jun 2011, 18:15

That's a rediculous number of failures! Thanks for the video and the review it was great! I was trying to convince my cousin to buy this as his first gun for target shooting to get into the swing of things but idk now...

Website · Post by **jgreenberg01** » 20 Jun 2011, 18:21

Nickf150fx4 wrote:That's a rediculous number of failures! Thanks for the video and the review it was great! I was trying to convince my cousin to buy this as his first gun for target shooting to get into the swing of things but idk now...

Who knows, I may have a lemon. If you sit through the video that should be up by tomorrow, you'll see why I say that...

57js · Post by **57js** » 20 Jun 2011, 19:25

jgreenberg01 wrote:My FsN had only one failure in the first 500 rounds. It was literally the first round through it and it was a FTF. I probably didn't let the slide slam home hard enough.

I've only used CCI ammo which is the one that Kel-Tec recommends. Ironically enough, they claim that other brands may not cycle the slide properly.

I had a few FTF the first time I shot the FsN. It probably was all me since it was only the second time I ever fired a gun when I took it to the range. After I went through a few magazines, and got the hang of the gun, I didn't have any more FTF. Very reliable gun. Unlike your Kel-Tec it appears. Hopefully it will get more reliable.

57js · Post by **57js** » 20 Jun 2011, 19:26

jgreenberg01 wrote:
Nickf150fx4 wrote:That's a rediculous number of failures! Thanks for the video and the review it was great! I was trying to convince my cousin to buy this as his first gun for target shooting to get into the swing of things but idk now...
Who knows, I may have a lemon. If you sit through the video that should be up by tomorrow, you'll see why I say that...

Have you contacted Kel-Tec about your problems with this gun?

Post by **blueorison** » 20 Jun 2011, 20:16

Let me CLARIFY something.

The FsN DOES NOT take hundreds of rounds to break in.

The issue is that the gun was designed as a COMBAT weapon to shoot COMBAT loads. FN watered down their ammunition and the springs were too heavy for the light ammunition. This one issue has caused many problems.

However, springs ALWAYS have a break in period, unless they are high quality springs and have been tuned. Even then...

That said, I had no issues with my FsN and never had to break it in.

Mister Freeze · Post by **Mister Freeze** » 20 Jun 2011, 20:50

Website · Post by **jgreenberg01** » 21 Jun 2011, 04:25

For anyone who wants to sit through 14 minutes of shooting this thing, or if there anyone thinks they can diagnose the problem by watching a video, feel free. No fancy editing, no silly jokes, just 14 minutes of Kel-Tec FAIL.

Full disclosure, while I am certain there was no limp-wristing, I know I occasionally flinch with this gun because I can't get the videos out of my head of this thing going KB. I don't think it's enough to make if fail this often though.

57js wrote:Have you contacted Kel-Tec about your problems with this gun?

Not yet, I'm going to put 500+ rounds through it then go do the ballistic testing on July 16. If it is still experiencing the failures & keyholing then yes, I will certainly be contacting them. It's not like I'm going to be using this gem for HD/SD any time soon, so I don't mind losing it for a few weeks when they tell me to send it back...

Warning, the first 12:25 minutes of this video is just shooting the PMR-30 and counting all the failures... you may fall asleep, lol. The accuracy (benchrest) shooting is at 12:26 followed by a quick summary at 14:20:

And here are a couple of targets that show the keyholes. First a typical hollow-point target, it has 8 keyholes in 30 rounds:

And a FMJ target, They do much better, this one has only one keyhole in 60 rounds:

Gramaton Cleric · Post by **Gramaton Cleric** » 21 Jun 2011, 04:44

wow my Walther P22 has less issues! And is accurate to boot! Im astounded

Gramaton Cleric · Post by **Gramaton Cleric** » 21 Jun 2011, 05:00

the slide seems stiff like it needs nano'ed lol ! is it always that tight! accuracy on it, seems vastly improved!!

Website · Post by **jgreenberg01** » 21 Jun 2011, 05:49

Gramaton Cleric wrote:the slide seems stiff like it needs nano'ed lol ! is it always that tight! accuracy on it, seems vastly improved!!

Trust me, it is plenty lubed. Yes, it's ironic... accuracy is improving while reliability is going down the tubes. I'm hoping it just needs a break in period, but I'm leery of that. Of all my other handguns: FNs, XDMs, Taurus(es), none of them required a "break-in" period. And certainly none of them experienced issues like this.

I know that rimfire cartridges fail substantially more often than centerfire, and I have experienced that with my Henry lever action .22lr rifle on occasion, but it fails only a small fraction of the time in comparison to the PMR-30.

Post by **Rapier1772** » 21 Jun 2011, 07:13

jgreenberg01 wrote:I know that rimfire cartridges fail substantially more often than centerfire, and I have experienced that with my Henry lever action .22lr rifle on occasion, but it fails only a small fraction of the time in comparison to the PMR-30.

:huh:
I can't remember a single instance of a .22LR failing since I started shooting - at least not one that couldn't be blamed on a loose operator nut :ponder: But then I also hadn't shot a .22 over a decade until I bought one last month. So far, no issues with that one

Prepper · Post by **Prepper** » 21 Jun 2011, 07:18

Rapier1772 wrote:
jgreenberg01 wrote:I know that rimfire cartridges fail substantially more often than centerfire, and I have experienced that with my Henry lever action .22lr rifle on occasion, but it fails only a small fraction of the time in comparison to the PMR-30.
:huh:
I can't remember a single instance of a .22LR failing since I started shooting - at least not one that couldn't be blamed on a loose operator nut :ponder: But then I also hadn't shot a .22 over a decade until I bought one last month. So far, no issues with that one

I've had no issues with my S&W M&P15-22, Walther P22, S&W P22A, or Rugar 10-22.

Post by **panzermk2** » 21 Jun 2011, 07:57

What a nightmare of a gun.

Website · Post by **jgreenberg01** » 21 Jun 2011, 08:16

Just FYI - I called KT and told them exactly what was happening and they said that there is no way it should be performing like this and that I need to get it to them for repair.

I'll send it in after the ballistic testing on July 16, and I will report back after they return the gun to me...

Gramaton Cleric · Post by **Gramaton Cleric** » 21 Jun 2011, 11:51

Noted

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 21 Jun 2011, 13:07

Some of the super fine custom guns and well made production guns need break-ins. None of them are polymer framed though. My Kimber CS and Sigs had a few FTF in the first few magazines they shot, but after that worked flawlessly.

This isn't a break-in issue. Either the design is crap, or you got a lemon. Best of luck, hope KT treats you right.

Buffman · Post by **Buffman** » 21 Jun 2011, 14:14

You tried chambering a round, then removing the mag, and firing that round to see if it will fully extract?

Website · Post by **jgreenberg01** » 21 Jun 2011, 14:36

Buffman wrote:You tried chambering a round, then removing the mag, and firing that round to see if it will fully extract?

Yes, but it was hit or miss. It didn't seem to make a difference if the mag was in it or not.

Buffman · Post by **Buffman** » 21 Jun 2011, 15:59

interesting..

VeTTeMaNC486 · Post by **VeTTeMaNC486** » 23 Jun 2011, 09:17

I hope they get it straightened out for ya

rgkitchen · Post by **rgkitchen** » 23 Jun 2011, 11:54

I joined this forum just so that I could follow and comment on your experiment. I did not want to set up a Youtube account, so I'm glad I found you here. I'm interested in your experiment not because I think that the PMR-30 is equivalent to the 5-7 (it obviously is not), but because I want to know how much they are different. The cost differential is very large (my PMR-30 was $299, which is about 1/3 - 1/4 the cost of a 5-7). If the performance of the PMR-30 is only 65%, or more, less than then 5-7 (1/3 the cost but 2/3 the performance), I would consider it a good value, as long as it functions at least 98%.

I picked up my PMR-30 last November, and I had similar failures to extract as you are experiencing, although I only experienced it about once every 2 or 3 magazines. After about 300 rounds it got better, but then after about 1,100 rounds it began having problems feeding. I sent it back, and it was repaired and returned to me in a little over two weeks. It was greatly improved after that, and I increased my shot count to about 2,500 rounds, when it experienced an OOB and was rendered unusable. Kel-Tec sent me a shipping label and completely rebuilt it. I now have the newest barrel and slide (along with a lot of other replaced parts). In my last three trips to the range (425 rounds), I have only experienced the occasional slide locking open with one round in the magazine (5 times out of 17 magazines). The accuracy is greatly improved, but the heat dissapation is a little worse. There are numerous design changes in my new PMR-30 as compared to how it was configured originally.

In your case, I don't want to assume, but have you watched the magazine loading video on the Kel-Tec web site? The magazines are very sensitive to proper loading technique. Now that mine are a little broken in, I load them in groups of 10-5-5-5. I have also found that the PMR-30 has to be very well lubricated. I've tried slide grease and spray lube, but the best for me are a couple drops of gun oil in the slide (for the barrel), on the sides of the barrel block, on the on the receiver slide rails, and on the base of the slide where it cocks the hammer back.

I shoot mostly CCI Maxi-Mag 40gr. JHP, Federal Champion 40gr. FMJ, and Federal Game-Shok 50gr. JHP. I load my magazines with only 25 rounds, simply because that evenly divides a box of ammo. I have been shooting pistol for only a couple of years, but I have a lot of experience with rifles. My reason for purchasing the PMR-30 is simply because it uses .22 Magnum. I have two other .22 Magnum guns (Winchester 9422M and Heritage Rough Rider 4-3/4" revolver), and I am planning on getting a Kel-Tec RMR-30 when they come out next year. I just wanted a semi-automatic pistol in the same cartridge family I was already using.

I have posted extensive atricles on my PMR-30 experiences, and can direct you to them if you like.

Website · Post by **jgreenberg01** » 23 Jun 2011, 15:50

First, welcome to the forum!

To answer your question, yes I watched their mag loading video and followed the instructions exactly. As far as lubrication goes, I made sure to use plenty of gun oil in all appropriate areas.

Your gun fired OOB? As you can see in my video, the slide didn't completely cycle fairly often, so I am wondering if I should feel lucky that I didn't experience a KB?

I have the new barrel, made (and allegedly tested) in the second week of June 2011. It produces key holes fairly regularly with the CCI Max-Mag 40gr JHP, but it only did it twice with the Maxi-mag FMJ. Yours does not key hole?

The test results, data & videos will be posted here, in the EA part of the forum shortly after July 16.

And finally yes, I would like to see the articles that you posted.

Buffman · Post by **Buffman** » 23 Jun 2011, 15:57

Thanks for the info. ^^

rgkitchen · Post by **rgkitchen** » 23 Jun 2011, 17:34

Here are my posts on the KTOG Forum outlining my experiences with my PMR-30

Initial purchase
http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB. ... 1290034585" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

First range reports
http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB. ... 1290202180" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

First trip back to Kel-Tec
http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB. ... 1295217915" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post repair report
http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB. ... 1297549872" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Miscellaneous targets
http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB. ... 1299987947" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Updated range report
http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB. ... 1301868516" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Attempt at mounting a Walthers laser
http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB. ... 1302747132" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Major failure report
http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB. ... 1303520509" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Upgraded PMR-30
http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB. ... 1307758101" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Altogether, I've run the following through my PMR-30 . . . .

Federal Speer TNT 30gr. HP (weak)
CCI Maxi-Mag +V 30gr. HP
Hornady V-Max 30gr.
Winchester Supreme 30gr. HP
Remington 40gr. PSP
Remington 40gr. JHP
CCI Maxi-Mag 40gr. JHP
CCI Maxi-Mag 40gr. FMJ
Federal Champion 40gr. FMJ
Winchester Super-X 40gr. JHP
Winchester Super-X 40gr. FMJ
Winchester Dynapoint 45gr. (weak)
Federal GameShok 50gr. JHP

My preference is for the following: CCI Maxi-Mag 40gr. JHP, Federal Champion 40gr. FMJ, and Federal GameShok 50gr. JHP.

rgkitchen · Post by **rgkitchen** » 24 Jun 2011, 05:38

jgreenberg01 wrote:Your gun fired OOB? As you can see in my video, the slide didn't completely cycle fairly often, so I am wondering if I should feel lucky that I didn't experience a KB?

I'm almost 100% sure that a cartridge cannot fire when jammed in the manner shown in your videos. I'm almost 100% sure that mine exploded after firing. I guess you could more properly call it a case failure. Kel-Tec has redesigned the breech area of the PMR-30 so that the case and rim have more support (i.e. more steel surrounding them). If you have ever seen the full automatic videos of the PMR-30, you should note how reliably it can feed, when properly tuned.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6GxFws8B7k" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZG1MwGX0CIM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As for your trigger problems, I have never experienced what you are going through. It is definitely not normal. Let Kel-Tec send you a shipping label and get it fixed. If you inform them of your planned test, they may even expidite it for you (as well as go over it with a fine toothed comb).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbgTG-dLZrc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2KZMI-qNvY" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

fzr confused · Post by **fzr confused** » 24 Jun 2011, 06:47

Ok not gunna lie, that FA is pretty sweet.

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 24 Jun 2011, 07:12

It is, but if FN made a FA FiveseveN, that would be sweeter.

fzr confused · Post by **fzr confused** » 24 Jun 2011, 09:27

The way I figure it EA will build one soon enough

Post by **panzermk2** » 24 Jun 2011, 10:21

fzr confused wrote:The way I figure it EA will build one soon enough

Not soon enough, they take to long sometimes................. :ponder:

Tachycardia · Post by **Tachycardia** » 24 Jun 2011, 11:34

rgkitchen, welcome to the forum and thanks for all the links, there was some good info in there.

I have considered getting one as they are so cheap but a bit wary now.

Perhaps it will just take some more time to iron out the issues?

I would like to see a similar model in a metal frame, I wonder if it would be a factor in performance?

rgkitchen · Post by **rgkitchen** » 25 Jun 2011, 08:19

Tachycardia wrote:I would like to see a similar model in a metal frame, I wonder if it would be a factor in performance?

I'm of the impression that it was Kel-Tec's goal to create a 30 round firearm that weighed almost nothing. As a hiking firearm, it is terrific. I've worn it in a holster for most of a day, and it felt as if it wasn't even there. A metal frame would undoubtedly double the weight.

One thing in Kel-Tec’s favor is that the main components are steel or aluminum, not some “super alloy”. I’ve been very satisfied with mine, so far, even with all I’ve been through. I’m not a firearms expert, I’m only a beginner pistol shooter who wanted a .22 Magnum semi-automatic pistol, and the PMR-30 fulfills my expectations.

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 25 Jun 2011, 08:27

rgkitchen wrote:
Tachycardia wrote:I would like to see a similar model in a metal frame, I wonder if it would be a factor in performance?
I'm of the impression that it was Kel-Tec's goal to create a 30 round firearm that weighed almost nothing. As a hiking firearm, it is terrific. I've worn it in a holster for most of a day, and it felt as if it wasn't even there. A metal frame would undoubtedly double the weight.

One thing in Kel-Tec’s favor is that the main components are steel or aluminum, not some “super alloy”. I’ve been very satisfied with mine, so far, even with all I’ve been through. I’m not a firearms expert, I’m only a beginner pistol shooter who wanted a .22 Magnum semi-automatic pistol, and the PMR-30 fulfills my expectations.

:skep:

Kel-Tecs are made from the same alloys as the FsN. I think you may be drinking a bit of their kool-aid. MTM and aluminum in major firearms are the virtually the same material, and are both alloys. The only way that a guns quality of alloy or making material can really be questioned is if it is made of stamped alloy, and most new guns aren't. And even if they are, the quality of the stamping can at times be very good.

Kel-Tec doesn't make their firearms to any greater a degree of quality when compared to the rest of the established firearm companies. Not in the least.

rgkitchen · Post by **rgkitchen** » 25 Jun 2011, 14:47

flyingirish04 wrote:Kel-Tecs are made from the same alloys as the FsN. I think you may be drinking a bit of their kool-aid.

From the Kel-Tec PMR-30 web site . . . .

Slide and barrel are 4140 steel, frame is 7075 aluminum. Grip, slide cover, trigger, mag release, and safety levers are glass reinforced Nylon (Zytel), much like other Kel-Tec Pistols.

http://www.keltecweapons.com/our-guns/pistols/pmr-30/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm not familiar with the materials that go into an FN pistol, however, I do like them. I just can't afford them.

Nickf150fx4 · Post by **Nickf150fx4** » 25 Jun 2011, 16:53

Great info you guys keep it comin!

:thumb:

Tachycardia · Post by **Tachycardia** » 25 Jun 2011, 19:56

rgkitchen wrote:
flyingirish04 wrote:Kel-Tecs are made from the same alloys as the FsN. I think you may be drinking a bit of their kool-aid.
From the Kel-Tec PMR-30 web site . . . .

Slide and barrel are 4140 steel, frame is 7075 aluminum. Grip, slide cover, trigger, mag release, and safety levers are glass reinforced Nylon (Zytel), much like other Kel-Tec Pistols.

http://www.keltecweapons.com/our-guns/pistols/pmr-30/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm not familiar with the materials that go into an FN pistol, however, I do like them. I just can't afford them.

I was under the impression it was poly, my bad.

There is one on backpage right now for $200, may just pick it up and try my luck

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 25 Jun 2011, 20:13

rgkitchen wrote:
flyingirish04 wrote:Kel-Tecs are made from the same alloys as the FsN. I think you may be drinking a bit of their kool-aid.
From the Kel-Tec PMR-30 web site . . . .

Slide and barrel are 4140 steel, frame is 7075 aluminum. Grip, slide cover, trigger, mag release, and safety levers are glass reinforced Nylon (Zytel), much like other Kel-Tec Pistols.

http://www.keltecweapons.com/our-guns/pistols/pmr-30/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm not familiar with the materials that go into an FN pistol, however, I do like them. I just can't afford them.

Yep, no different than all major manufacturers poly guns. :thumb:

kalani · Post by **kalani** » 25 Jun 2011, 23:01

are you using th hand gun load 22 mag ammo?
http://www.hornady.com/store/22-WMR-45g ... al-Defense" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
and of course the CCI TNT maximag. there was another company that was making 22 wmr pistol round but the name alludeds me i saw the box said handgun on it. Mabe federal?

Buffman · Post by **Buffman** » 26 Jun 2011, 06:13

^^ That's new. Up till they came out with the PMR, most all .22WMR was designed around rifle barrel length weapons

rgkitchen · Post by **rgkitchen** » 26 Jun 2011, 07:21

Yes, Hornady now manufactures .22 Mag 45gr. Critical Defense ammunition, but I haven't tried it, yet . . . .

http://www.hornady.com/store/22-WMR-45g ... al-Defense" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Although the listed ballistics are for only a 1-7/8” barrel, and I don’t know how to convert that information to a 4-1/2” barrel. There is a gelatin comparison with 380 Auto on their web page.

Speer is also coming out with .22 Mag 40gr. pistol ammunition . . . .

http://www.speer-ammo.com/products/954.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Their information is also for a very short barrel. Kel-Tec claims a 40gr. muzzle energy of 138 ft-lbs, but that was with CCI Maxi-Mags. I wonder what it would be with the new pistol optimized ammunition?

My preference is for Federal Champion 40gr. FMJ and Federal Game-Shok 50gr. JHP. I have been told that FMJ bullets penetrate better and that there is no expansion from hollow point bullets when shot from pistols. I like the Game-Shok simply because it is the largest round available for .22 Mag, even though it is a hollow point. Under 25 yards (pistol range) it would still pack quite a wollop.

Buffman · Post by **Buffman** » 26 Jun 2011, 13:12

Hornady Lists their velocity at 1700 FPS from a 24" barrel. That's only a 700 FPS gain over 22" increase in barrel length. But that's making assumptions that 24" is needed for max velocity.

kalani · Post by **kalani** » 01 Jul 2011, 09:19

I watched the video pmr-30 fail video. looks like you not a 100% with your toys function. Also I wonder when you pmr was made the the latter batches last year were bugged down by an incorrectly made barrels from a third party. But you issues seems to be magzine perhapps not seating right or a some extra material on magazine its self........

kalani · Post by **kalani** » 01 Jul 2011, 11:16

its my under standing that 22 wmr and 17 hmr AMMUNITION MAKERS are not consistant with there. loading. THATs why many semi auto 22wmr and 17 hmr makers have issues with there riflesw evidently 17 hmr is the biggest culprit of the lot magnium research has recalled and stop making their semi auto 17hmr riffle . I only had to break in new guns when using cheap ammo like wincheaster target with my S&W/Walther ppk/s and my hi point 9540 carbine . when I used hornady or pmc ammo both cycle fine. after awhile of shooting the hotter stuff the ppk/s shot the wincheaster much more reliable.

Website · Post by **jgreenberg01** » 01 Jul 2011, 11:47

I don't know when the gun was manufactured but I had them send me the latest and greatest barrel before ever shooting it. As far as seating the ammo in the magazines, KT gives very specific instructions on how to do that, and I followed them to the T.

I can't speak to the consistency of the ammo, but I am using the KT's recommended rounds from CCI (who I understand has a pretty good reputation).

I anticipate that the gun will function better after I send it to KT for repairs which will be the week of 7/17/11.

fzr confused · Post by **fzr confused** » 17 Jul 2011, 12:26

just wondering if you got to do the shoot? not trying to rush you or the videos/reviews or anything, just wondering if it went down

Website · Post by **jgreenberg01** » 17 Jul 2011, 12:59

Yes, did the shoot, had some issues with the chronograph (it got shot), so that part will be re-done on Tuesday. The videos will be up within a week.

The PMR-30 behaved for the gel block shots, but when some of the people tried shooting a full mag through it, it was the same-old-same-old. The thing fails...

TerryGecko · Post by **TerryGecko** » 17 Jul 2011, 15:37

jgreenberg01 wrote:Yes, did the shoot, had some issues with the chronograph (it got shot), so that part will be re-done on Tuesday. The videos will be up within a week.

The PMR-30 behaved for the gel block shots, but when some of the people tried shooting a full mag through it, it was the same-old-same-old. The thing fails...

I don't remember how many rounds I shot out of it but the mag wasn't full and I had like 5 failures. I like the idea of a semi auto 22magnum pistol but after shooting yours, I am disappoint.

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 17 Jul 2011, 15:44

I just shot a PMR-30 today. Same issue, had a ton of FTF. I never go through a whole magazine. I asked the guy at the range that I rented it from if that was usually the outcome, and he said that unfortunately that was his experience to and should have told me about it before I paid to rent it. I told him thats fine, I wanted to find out for myself, but he still gave me a free rental. Tried out a Ruger LC9 one more time. Still thinking about picking one of those up. Price is right, wish it shot better than the LCP though.

Still I am placing the PMR squarely in POS territory. I would not recommend anyone purchase one.

rgkitchen · Post by **rgkitchen** » 17 Jul 2011, 18:30

I wish I could help you with your test. I can't comment on your results, but I have not experienced anything but the rare slide hold open with one round remaining since my first rebuild in January. I routinely run through full mags (25 rounds), one after another, with no problems other than what I previously mentioned.

This last weekend I competed in a PPC (Police Pistol Combat) Match using my PMR-30. Below is an outline of the match . . . .

Course of Fire:

Stage A: 12 rounds at 3 yards in 25 seconds, standing, no support, one hand only. Draw, fire 6 rounds right hand, reload, fire 6 rounds left hand.

Stage B: 12 rounds at 7 yards in 30 seconds, standing, no support, two hands. Draw, fire six rounds, reload, fire 6 rounds.

Stage C: 6 rounds at 15 yards in 12 seconds, standing, no support, two hands. Draw, fire 6 rounds.

- Stop, score competitor to your right. Then check your own score, hang new target or repair center, and return to 15 yard line.

Stage D: 12 rounds at 15 yards in 35 seconds, standing, no support, two hands. Draw, fire 6 rounds, reload, fire 6 rounds.

Stage E: 18 rounds at 25 yards in 90 seconds, two hands. Draw, fire 6 rounds kneeling, reload, fire 6 rounds left-handed from the left side of the barricade, reload, fire 6 rounds right-handed from right hand side of the barricade. You may use the barricade for support when shooting the left-hand and right-hand barricade positions.

- Stop, score competitor to your right, and sign competitor’s scorecard on “Scorer’s Signature” line. Check your own scorecard and sign on “Competitor’s Signature” line. Hang new target or repair center. Turn completed scorecard in to Range Safety Officer.

I had ten magazine changes using five magazines (each one twice, loaded with six rounds) and the only failure was a single magazine that locked open with one round remaining (I quickly racked it and finished the Stage). I used Federal Game-Shok 50gr. JHP. The target was a B27-E Silhouette Target . . . .

I had all 12 shots in the X in Stage A, and all but one in the 10 or X in Stage B (one in the 8). Altogether, I had 21 out of 60 shots in the X, and all but one shot scored (one hit in the right shoulder). My final score was 553 out of 600. I don’t know if that is good or mediocre, but it’s good enough for me.

The light trigger made it real easy to switch between my strong hand and weak hand. No one at the match had seen a PMR-30 before, and they were surprised at how well it performed. I didn’t get to keep my target or scorecard, so I can’t post any proof of my score, but this is no fish tale, and I had a blast.

Post by **blueorison** » 17 Jul 2011, 18:44

Great report. To what I know, PMR's are either hit or miss. No in betweens.

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 17 Jul 2011, 18:50

I have to say I am surprised how well it performed. As for ammo selection, if you have to use one type of of ammo, then that is another knock against the gun. I used range designated ammo, maybe that is why.

Either way, I'm sticking with the FsN.

Buffman · Post by **Buffman** » 17 Jul 2011, 20:18

rgkitchen that's what my dad's using in his AutoMag II. He had some 40gr winchesters, and his groupings were like 12" at 10 yards. Went to those 50gr Game-Shok's and groups tightened right up. His II has a 6" Barrel.

srt-4_jon · Post by **srt-4_jon** » 18 Jul 2011, 04:59

You say full mag but then put 25 rds in parenthases. I'm confused.

rgkitchen · Post by **rgkitchen** » 18 Jul 2011, 07:26

srt-4_jon wrote:You say full mag but then put 25 rds in parenthases. I'm confused.

I'm sorry that I was confusing. For me, splitting a box of 50 shells between two magazines (25 rounds each) makes sense. So I consider 25 rounds as a "full magazine". I've never loaded them up to their full 30 rounds. Maybe that's why I've had minimal feeding issues, I can't say.

I have a holster with a single extra magazine pouch, so I have 50 readily available .22 Mag rounds with me when I do carry. If I need more, I have a double mag pouch that I can also slip onto my belt, giving me 100 total rounds in four magazines.

Website · Post by **jgreenberg01** » 18 Jul 2011, 12:17

FYI - I had failures with magazines loaded with as little as 10 rounds all the way up to 30. The number of rounds in the mag had no bearing on how it ran.

rgkitchen · Post by **rgkitchen** » 18 Jul 2011, 15:42

Is this how it performs after a warranty trip back to Kel-Tec? I've been telling everyone who I show my PMR-30 to that I'm a Beta tester. It has been upgraded three times, and each time it came back better than before. According to your profile, you're only 150 miles from Kel-Tec. Give 'em another call, tell them what you're doing, and see if they'll let you visit and get all the newest upgrades.

Since your PMR-30 was delivered with the old barrel, you probably have the old slide as well. Is the bottom of your slide flush all the way around? The upgraded slide has a very slight reveal at the barrel end (see my photos on the newest upgrades). I don't know the purpose of this reveal, but I have had no feeding or extraction errors with this slide/barrel combination except for the rare last shot left behind I have previously mentioned.

I really want to see your gelatin results. Did you try any .22 mag solid points? Brassfetcher said that the solid bullets tumbled and were more damaging than the hollow points which didn't expand at all. Looking forward to your results.

Website · Post by **jgreenberg01** » 18 Jul 2011, 15:57

rgkitchen wrote:Is this how it performs after a warranty trip back to Kel-Tec? I've been telling everyone who I show my PMR-30 to that I'm a Beta tester. It has been upgraded three times, and each time it came back better than before. According to your profile, you're only 150 miles from Kel-Tec. Give 'em another call, tell them what you're doing, and see if they'll let you visit and get all the newest upgrades.

Since your PMR-30 was delivered with the old barrel, you probably have the old slide as well. Is the bottom of your slide flush all the way around? The upgraded slide has a very slight reveal at the barrel end (see my photos on the newest upgrades). I don't know the purpose of this reveal, but I have had no feeding or extraction errors with this slide/barrel combination except for the rare last shot left behind I have previously mentioned.

I really want to see your gelatin results. Did you try any .22 mag solid points? Brassfetcher said that the solid bullets tumbled and were more damaging than the hollow points which didn't expand at all. Looking forward to your results.

I was going to just send them the gun via UPS, but maybe it is worth a trip down there... although it's close to a 3 hour drive. I'd do it if they could fix it all in one day, but I suspect that they can't/won't. I'll call them after I do the chrony tests and see what they say.

As far as the gel tests went, we used the HP bullets and only a 9" block. We fired 2 shots and both of the rounds zipped completely through, creating a wound channel not much bigger than the bullet diameter.

Website · Post by **jgreenberg01** » 21 Jul 2011, 05:40

I was at the range doing the chrony testing for the videos I'm doing, and as I am shooting the PMR-30, something hits me in the forehead. Apparently the front sight didn't want to play any more and decided it wanted out...

I'll have the videos up early next week - it's taking way longer than I anticipated, sorting through literally hundreds of pictures and matching them up to the correct videos is a bigger task than I imagined.

Buffman · Post by **Buffman** » 21 Jul 2011, 10:03

Early Next week. Slowpoke :P

THey sound like they'll be worth it. I realize i need to start slowing down on some of my videos to provide more pictures..

Website · Post by **jgreenberg01** » 21 Jul 2011, 10:24

The videos won't have all that many pics. Not all of them are usable and some are dups, but the hardest part is that you can't tell what gel block pics belong to what rounds. The videos all start with the name of the round. Pics just have file names like DSC001234 - not very helpful, especially when there's a LOT of them.

Time stamping is next to useless because, as it turns out, all the cameras had different times. Math. I hate doing that. Live and learn. At least now I know how to be better organized now for the next round of tests...

rgkitchen · Post by **rgkitchen** » 22 Jul 2011, 05:50

jgreenberg01 wrote:I was at the range doing the chrony testing for the videos I'm doing, and as I am shooting the PMR-30, something hits me in the forehead. Apparently the front sight didn't want to play any more and decided it wanted out.

Yep, an early problem with the fibre optic on the front sight. I was at the indoor range when mine popped out (back in December), so I was able to recover it. Superglue took care of the problem. My upgraded slides do not have this problem. There is a Youtube video of a PMR-30 firing, and you can see the fibre optic work its way out and disappear in five shots.

stevelkinevil · Post by **stevelkinevil** » 16 Aug 2011, 08:43

Oh man I did not like reading this, not because I want that ugly arse pistol, but because I really want a RFB :ponder:

Website · Post by **jgreenberg01** » 16 Aug 2011, 10:26

I just got my PMR-30 back from KT. They replaced the slide, the barrel and polished the feed ramp. They also have just announced that their previously recommended rounds, CCI Maxi-Mag 40gr HPs are part of the problem - they claim that the issues are peculiar to just that round and other ammo doesn't keyhole.

I can't make it to the range again until next Monday, but I will post a video update right after that. For what it's worth, their customer service has been excellent... now let's see if the gun works!

SeaHawkDriver-B · Post by **SeaHawkDriver-B** » 16 Aug 2011, 15:20

I'm glad you guys are doing all the Beta testing for me. I've been tracking this pistol for over a year fully intent on buying one when I get back stateside. I was hoping that Kel Tec did a better job at a rimfire pistol than say the Sig Mosquito, or the Walther .22 variant. Both of which have HORRIBLE FTF reputations. Apparently not so much.

Lets hope they get their problems ironed-out by sometime next year and I'll consider picking one up. Until then, I'm not touching one. My pistol stash is mostly Glocks, HKs, Steyr, Sig, and FN's... so a pistol that FTF is not something I"m used to, and will quickly find its way in the trashcan.

Greenburg, next time I'm in Jax, lets hook up for a range shoot. Curious where you go and who your suppliers are for good guns and ammo. My inlaws stil live there and I'll be building a house out there somtime in the next 2-3 years when my next tour of duty comes up.

Website · Post by **jgreenberg01** » 16 Aug 2011, 17:07

Let me know when you're heading this way, we can send some rounds downrange. And Shooters is where I get my guns and accessories (but not ammo) when I buy locally. They typically hook me up price-wise.

Website · Post by **jgreenberg01** » 05 Sep 2011, 18:27

I just got the PMR-30 back from Kel-Tec and they replaced the barrel, the slide and they polished the feed ramp. I figured that between the repair and the recent press release from KT announcing that the key-holing issue was specific to the round that they had recommended, the CCI Maxi-Mag HP 40gr, all would be well.

The release can be read here:
http://www.keltecweapons.com/news/pmr-3 ... ons-update

The good news:

While the accuracy isn't perfect it is GREATLY improved. The key-holing issue seems to be resolved and the FTF problems are pretty much gone.

The bad news:

A new issue arose that you should watch the video to see.

Ammo tested:
Winchester Supreme JHP 34gr #S22WM
Hornady V-Max 30gr #83202
Federal Speer TNT HP 30gr #p765
CCI Max-Mag HP 30gr #0059

Post by **blueorison** » 05 Sep 2011, 19:18

d. dude, that sucks. Glad you are giving a full spectrum report. Keltec has a ways to go. I'm still really impressed with their stuff, very intelligent designs. What needs to catch up is their QC and problem solving.

Post by **panzermk2** » 05 Sep 2011, 21:47

Great vid Jeff. I am so liking my new to me Sig Mosquito.

Nickf150fx4 · Post by **Nickf150fx4** » 08 Sep 2011, 18:00

Great video :thumb:

Website · Post by **jgreenberg01** » 22 Mar 2012, 12:20

In case anyone wants an update: I never got around to sending the PMR-30 back to Kel-Tec, but I needed a .22 for a dueling tree competition. Out comes the PMR. Had intermittent trigger issues meaning I'd pull the trigger and no bang - the hammer wouldn't drop. It made it 49 rounds and on the 50th, the trigger simply gave up completely.

Now it's on its way back to KT.

I know this is just one gun of thousands they made and I assume it's the exception, but WOW, I've never had to send a gun back to the manufacturer and this is twice already for the PMR-30! I'll post an update when I get it back... again.

LA-LI-LU-LE-LO · Post by **LA-LI-LU-LE-LO** » 11 May 2012, 19:14

That sucks, I was looking forward to purchasing one, but I've been reading that they have lots of problems. Hopefully they fix it soon.

Website · Post by **jgreenberg01** » 12 May 2012, 04:06

I finally got around to sending it back for repair after the trigger completely stopped working. They have had it for 55 days now and as of 4 days ago they said it will be another 2 weeks before they can look at it. I reminded them that this is the second time it was sent in for repair, but that doesn't change its place in the cue.

I was really hoping to report that the gun was back and functioning 100% by now... but that is yet to be seen... in 2-ish weeks?

taseal · Post by **taseal** » 23 Jun 2012, 20:56

What's going on with this? any updates?

Post by **jmz5** » 24 Jun 2012, 03:48

panzermk2 wrote:Great vid Jeff. I am so liking my new to me Sig Mosquito.

I had an early one, it was a POS that only liked mini-mags.

Website · Post by **jgreenberg01** » 31 Jul 2012, 15:27

I'm pretty much over this gun. I think I have some of that In The Red powder around here somewhere...

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