SCAR vs HK 556a

Post by **panzermk2** » 04 Dec 2011, 00:23

All bullpups suffer from bad triggers. Learn to shoot with them then. Simple like using mop handles when I hustled pool instead of cue sticks. The stick no matter what it's construction is still a stick. It's all about how you hit the ball.

Besides if it's that bad I have a professional Russian who can fix it.

Post by **blueorison** » 04 Dec 2011, 01:01

Wait.. so you're saying.... the emphasis should be on the shooter, not the gear?

WHAT RUBBISH IS THIS.

Sounds really familiar, like I've heard it from somewhere... can't place my finger on it... :lmao: :lmao:

Post by **panzermk2** » 04 Dec 2011, 01:21

blueorison wrote:Wait.. so you're saying.... the emphasis should be on the shooter, not the gear?

WHAT RUBBISH IS THIS.

Sounds really familiar, like I've heard it from somewhere... can't place my finger on it... :lmao: :lmao:

legit

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 04 Dec 2011, 12:18

If its the shooter, which I agree, then save your money and buy a AR-10 :p

SHEEPDOG · Post by **SHEEPDOG** » 04 Dec 2011, 18:57

panzermk2 wrote:
blueorison wrote:Wish someone besides Keltec and FN would make a compact, plastic .308 that I could use.

Instead of saturating the fanboy market with more useless ARs.

An FS2000 in .308 is what your asking for then isn't it?

I prefer the FS2000 over the SCARE light. The compact package is just to appealing to me.

:agree: With both of you. I put a Neu-Trigger on my FS2000, it made a big difference in it.

Post by **blueorison** » 04 Dec 2011, 19:19

Sweet! I tried the Neu-trigger on an MSAR and it made a big difference.

FNtacticalNUT · Post by **FNtacticalNUT** » 05 Dec 2011, 19:12

IRISH
Come on man.
It seems as if you are a salesman for HK or for Colt. This is a proven platform that has been adopted by our military for years. Also been adopted by other countries across the world for that fact. No platform is perfect and has never been. No AR is really worth the asking price if you want to really argue that fact. But for you to bang the SCAR over hear say is crazy. You will find good and bad in any platform.
But you can never fight the fact that they are being issued these guns today. I have a few friends that are responsible for these military contracts and the word is that they are trying to bring down the cost of the platforms. Thats why the military will likely go to a modified M4 platform.
But I live around a ton of SOCOM's and they live and die with the SCAR platform.
I printed your post and showed it to them and as normal they just laugh out loud. You can not believe everything you read and even if it is from the GOVERNMENT. Come on you know that.
Everyone has their opinion and are entitled to them. But the fact is that I am looking at a GOVT issue SCAR right now along with a GOVT issue manual. So what testing did it not pass to be approved by the SOCOM division. Let's not forget that the USMC's are not the only elite forces in our military. No one division is bigger than the next. So in reality your opinions are just that. YOUR OPINIONS.
Most people issued these rifles would give up their life before they would the SCAR.
Notice I said most but not all. As everyone is entitled their opinion but that doesnt make it right.
And for the record both HK and Knight Armament have been removed from the new platform bidding. The military will be making a modified version of the M4 but it is based off of $$$$$$$$$ and not performance issues.

When the SCAR has been zeroed in correctly by it's SPEC I have never not shot SUB MOA EVER!!!!!!
Under any conditions. !!!!!!!!!!! PERIOD !!!!!!!!!!!

The SCAR is still top dog for the SOCOM divisions as that is what they were designed for and by. And those that rely on it with their lives would have none other. :p :p

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 05 Dec 2011, 19:24

"I have never shot sub MOA ever."

That might be the only truthful statement in that whole post above. Man, I don't know what to tell you, but read a bit more before you post. I can't even begin to point out the amount of error in your post. If you are trolling for a heated argument, I don't have any desire to pursue one. Mostly because you aren't concerned with fact, but also because I have nothing against the SCAR except for its price. My issue. :facepalm:

And for the record, I don't work in the firearms industry. I am ex-military, and now market crude-based refined products.

:cya:

fooschnickens · Post by **fooschnickens** » 05 Dec 2011, 19:27

I'd post a picture right now but fuzzy got mad at me the last time I used it.

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 05 Dec 2011, 19:27

fooschnickens wrote:I'd post a picture right now but fuzzy got mad at me the last time I used it.

pm it to me.

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 05 Dec 2011, 19:31

I will say this, his screen name seems to be uber accurate.

FNtacticalNUT · Post by **FNtacticalNUT** » 05 Dec 2011, 20:10

I do not wish for any heated argument. But I respectfully disagree.
I am not perfect never claimed to be
But I am also looking at your posts as well and felt a need to give a different opinion.
But I do see your smart comments to fooshchnickens.
Shows you can not respect others point of views.
You and your smart comments are not worth my time and efforts.
And my comment about shooting SUB MOA's are facts when the SCAR is zeroed in to SPEC's
Or do you even know how to?
Just a question.
And I am pushing out point's from over 10+ friends that use them everyday with their lives on the line.
If you know so much then educate me even more as I am willing to learn.
But I will leave the rest of this post to you
MR. know it all.

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 05 Dec 2011, 20:31

Listen, I welcome you to the forum. But I think you will benefit in knowing that there a ton of guys that have actually been around and know when someone is fronting or posing.

I don't need to know it all to know that shooting sub MOA is a good thing, not a bad thing like you originally posted. Also don't need to be a KIA (not killed in action

) to know that MOA shift and greater than consistent 1 inch groups at 100 yards is something that FN admits too w/ the SCAR. Nor do I need to know everything to know that there is no such thing as 'SOCOMs' or 'SOCOM divisions' or that I am fairly certain given those mistakes that you are lying when you say you have ten friends that are using them with 'their lives on the line'. Also, 'zeroed in to specs' means next to nothing.

My guess is that you own a SCAR and took offense to me 'dressing it down' (real military slang by the way). Let me stifle your petulance for my alternative view on the weapon you so love by saying that I own many weapons less capable than the SCAR. There, not so bad now is it. :thumb:

Post by **f3rr37** » 05 Dec 2011, 20:41

Guys cool it, or warnings will be issued to all.

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 05 Dec 2011, 21:00

FNTacticalNUT,

Let's take Fuzzy's advice on this subject. Welcome to the forum. It is always good to have a new guy that loves shooting on here. We all post things at times we wish we could take back. I hope you find this forum as full of knowledge and info as I have. It really is the better of the two FN related forums. :thumb:

FNtacticalNUT · Post by **FNtacticalNUT** » 05 Dec 2011, 21:03

You seem to know everything.
You know that there are no UNITED STATES SPECIAL OPERATIONS COMMAND. I guess I made that up to. Oh I guess I do not live in a subdivision here in Good OLE Virginia with mostly NAVY SEALS SPECS OP'S. Or that my family member writes GOVT contracts for the military.
OH I forgot you are MR. Know it all.
When you go to the range every weekend with my pal's you tend to learn a thing or two. I have owned my SCAR for 3 years now and am very consistent with my MOA.
If you need to see how it is done come pay us a visit as we would enjoy showing you how it is done on the range here in VA. We are always looking for some competition.

But you then call me a liar.
I do not claim to be military nor have I claimed to know it all or nor do I claim someone else a liar.
You have shown your true colors to me.
I was just disagreeing with your personal opinion but given your smart mouth attitude I do not respect that now.
I Have more than one SCAR and have MORE than one rifle and pistol. And have been around a family of military and great shooters' my entire life. I have been shooting since I was 5 years old.
Just because I am NOOB here does not mean I have no knowledge of what I am talking about. But again you take it personal when someone else disagrees with you.
You are a MR.KNOW it all.
FACE the FACT's

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 05 Dec 2011, 21:06

Ok. And again, welcome to the forum.

FNtacticalNUT · Post by **FNtacticalNUT** » 05 Dec 2011, 21:07

I am done any way . I have enjoyed your forum but when someone has a difference of opinion and the other calls some one a liar. Then it has gone to far. I just wanted to state my side of what I have seen out there. I mean no harm and was clearly just stating an opinion.
Sorry if I have offended anyone.
My Apologies

FNtacticalNUT · Post by **FNtacticalNUT** » 05 Dec 2011, 21:09

No harm done.
Everything here is fine.
Sorry for ruffling of the feather's

FNtacticalNUT · Post by **FNtacticalNUT** » 05 Dec 2011, 21:17

On May 4, 2010, a press release on FNH USA's official website announced the SCAR Acquisition Decision Memorandum was finalized on April 14, 2010. This is an approval for the entire weapons family of the Mk16 SCAR Light, Mk17 SCAR Heavy and the Enhanced Grenade Launcher Module.[20]

In late October 2010 SOCOM approved full-rate production of the Mk 20 sniper variant of the SCAR, with fielding expected to begin in mid-May 2011.[11]

FNtacticalNUT · Post by **FNtacticalNUT** » 05 Dec 2011, 21:23

This is the cancellation of the MK16 [from Wikipedia]

On June 25, 2010 SOCOM announced that it was canceling the acquisition of the MK-16 citing limited funds and a lack of enough of a performance difference in another 5.56mm rifle to justify the purchase. Remaining funds would be expended for the MK-17 7.62×51 mm version and the MK-20 sniper variant.[27] "FNH USA believes the issue is not whether the SCAR, and specifically the [originally contracted] MK 16 variant, is the superior weapon system available today ... it has already been proven to be just that, ... recently passing Milestone C and determined to be operationally effective / operationally suitable (OE/OS) for fielding. The issue is whether or not the requirement for a 5.56mm replacement outweighs the numerous other requirements competing for the customers’ limited budget. That is a question that will only be determined by the customer." [28] FN Herstal though has stated that the 5.56mm variant will be retained by SOCOM, and that "The choice between the 5.56 and the 7.62 caliber will be left to the discretion of each constitutive component of USSOCOM's Joint Command (e.g. SEALs, Rangers, Army Special Forces, MARSOC, AFSOC) depending on their specific missions on today's battlefield." [29]

As of August 19, 2010 word from US Special Operations Command has not changed. SOCOM has decided to procure the 7.62 mm MK-17 rifle, the 40mm MK-13 grenade launcher and the 7.62mm MK-20 Sniper Support rifle variants of the Special Operations Forces Combat Assault Rifle (SCAR) manufactured by FN. SOCOM will not purchase the 5.56mm MK-16. At this point the individual service component commands within SOCOM (Army Special Operations Command, Naval Special Warfare Command, Air Force Special Operations Command, and Marine Corps Forces Special Operations Command) may or may not still buy the 5.56mm MK-16 SCAR for some or all of their respective subordinate units even with overall US Special Operations Command opting not to.[

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 05 Dec 2011, 21:36

Yep, that's the FN press release. And that is what FNH believes. I agree. And procurement will continue at a limited basis. It will not be adopted service wide like the HK in the IAR, nor will SOCOM be limited to it in its procurement. KAC and HK aren't excluded either. And the only thing clear is that a modified AR will be adopted by combat arms units of the military and the USMC has excluded FN from their procurement structure based on its findings in the IAR testing.

That was my point. The only proving ground exercise where HK went head to head with FNH, the HK was selected.

http://www.defensereview.com/us-marine- ... 49-sawlmg/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **blueorison** » 05 Dec 2011, 22:06

I've seen many MOA and sub-MOA targets from the SCAR 5.56 and .308. Per your point, this has to be repeatable. So I will try to get my hands on a 16 or 17 and shoot it at 100 yards and see if it consistently holds that MOA and zero.

I'm really interested in the SCARs and would like to hear more facts about it. :thumb:

flyingirish04 wrote:The USMC just went through extensive trials with the military SCAR 17 and 16 along side HK's upgrade to the 416 and a 7.62 version. The HK blew it out of the water.

It is designed off the 416 design they had for the military which may be the best piston system on the market. It is a million times smoother than the SCAR or most ARs.

Irish do you mind citing some sources for these two points you made? Thanks!

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 06 Dec 2011, 06:37

See link above.

fooschnickens · Post by **fooschnickens** » 06 Dec 2011, 07:12

Welp. There goes another member.

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 06 Dec 2011, 07:30

No, he is still here. All is well. And it seems he an energetic add to the forum. :thumb:

Unless you were talking about yourself, in which case GOOD RIDDANCE! :laugh: Seriously, just kidding.

Post by **Cyberfly** » 06 Dec 2011, 10:00

I still think the Ruger 556 is worth looking at.
Less money and a darn good rifle.

Hoodathunk I'd recommend a Ruger?!

FNtacticalNUT · Post by **FNtacticalNUT** » 06 Dec 2011, 13:08

You really thought you could get rid of me that easy?
Come on now it is not that easy.
I knew Mr IRISH would not agree with what I posted. But it is not from FNH nor from a invovled party. And yes KAC and HK were never excluded but this month removed themselves from the bidding contract. I can not reveal my sources on that matter. But you will see soon enough when it is let out of the bag. I can not speak for them nor do I claim to. But I do know that much.
The defense review article was dated 12/4/09. A full 2 years ago and it is only relevent to replace the FN M249 . And for the testing I know HK is a great product but I also know that SOCOM is still buying the SCAR. And yes every branch has the right to choose their own weapon of choice which is what USMC has done. But this still does not prove that every military branch is accepting it. This is only the testing of one branch of the military. How about the testing for SOCOM that it was the only platform then to out perform the competition.
I still know several SPEC OP guys in the NAVY and ARMY that are using the SCARS. These are battle proven and very reliable as are most FNH products.
But none the less this is getting away from the fact that you say that HK blows it out of the water.
My point is that the SCAR is a premium product that is priced at just that.
It is proven to be a leader in the industry and your personal opinion does not take that away from that platform.
This is nothing more than 1 man's opinion on this matter. The SCAR has been proven to be reliable and everyone that I know loves it that relies on it.
I hope that this information will be helpful for you to make an educated decision on purchasing the SCAR.
But you will need to buy where your heart is. Not where mine is at. :p :p

FNtacticalNUT · Post by **FNtacticalNUT** » 06 Dec 2011, 13:18

The Ruger 556 is a fine rifle. But to me it is very top heavy and nose heavy. After handling the SCAR and going to another platform is tough for me. The felt recoil is also much different. The only issue that I have with RUGER is it is INVESTMENT CASTING. I do not know if they do it wil the 556 but I would guess that they do because everything else they make is Investment Casting.
But I do like the platform of the RUGER 556 as they are a great value. :agree:

Post by **Cyberfly** » 06 Dec 2011, 13:49

I don't know if they cast or mill the Ruger. Another one I'd check on is the S&W M&P 556, but again, I don't know if they are cast or milled either. I handled one at a police shoot out and that is ONE AR platform that I would purchase on purpose.
True, it isn't a SCAR, nor is it an H&K, nor is it a Sig, but you could buy 2 of the S&W's for the price of one of those 'elitist' weapon systems! Hahahahaha...sorry guys, I had to!
But seriously, I really did like the M&P. Like I said, it's not an upper end shooter like those mentioned above, but I really, REALLY did like the way it felt and handled.
If I run across another Ruger, though...I'll check into whether she's milled or cast. That's a good thing to know.

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 06 Dec 2011, 15:08

She is forged like most mainstream ARs.

Great to see you back Fly!

Post by **blueorison** » 07 Dec 2011, 01:21

Cyberfly wrote: True, it isn't a SCAR, nor is it an H&K, nor is it a Sig, but you could buy 2 of the S&W's for the price of one of those 'elitist' weapon systems! Hahahahaha...sorry guys, I had to!

LOL. :thumb:

I like S&W M&P15's. I've shot them a bunch and would definitely recommend them.

Post by **Cyberfly** » 07 Dec 2011, 05:35

S&W got something right with them, didn't they? I can't quite put my finger on it, but there is something different about them. True, they still aren't a Sig, but they are light, tight and ready to fight. I loved the feel, the action and the way they handled.
One of the best feeling AR's I ever handled.
As much as I hate to say it, I liked it even better than the Colt M4.

toyslr · Post by **toyslr** » 07 Dec 2011, 10:29

I've sold ALOT of the Ruger 556's and for the money, it is a good deal! You get a variable gas piston rifle with a troy battle rail, troy flip up sights, hogue grip, and 3 p-mags for just under $1400.00. Not a bad deal considering most other gas piston rigs will cost you atleast 1800-1900

SamM · Post by **SamM** » 19 Jan 2012, 15:36

If you guys are still looking at ARs, you need to be looking at Noveske. Add a piston kit and you've got something. I just bought a matched Noveske upper and lower and I'm putting it together myself. There's no better way to do it. The Noveske stuff is very well made.

SamM

SeaHawkDriver-B · Post by **SeaHawkDriver-B** » 19 Jan 2012, 16:00

Go buy a Bob's Machine, Tool, and Muffler shop AR.... nobdoy beats the BMT&M stuff, hands down! Yeah, they've only been making piston uppers for 6 weeks, but they started years ago making AR accessories when the ban was lifted in 2004. If you know whats what and have been following their sponsorship on BARF.com, then you know BMT&M makes some sick AR parts. They have solved all the problems with AR's and make the 1960's armalite design into a completely modern rifle... and at least comparable or better than the 643 other AR manufacturers on the scene.

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 19 Jan 2012, 20:38

I know BMT&M. They are decent, but to say they are the best is not something you can do with intellectual honesty. They make a good reliable battle rifle, but no one, and I repeat no one sees them as anything more than the other custom billet guys. Great product though for sure, just not in a world of its own by any means.

Noveske was the game to beat, but they are now way less of a gun in comparison to the competition, for way more than those other manufacturers. It is the AR of 3 years ago. Not the best that is in the game now. Still great short piston uppers if you want to go Class 3. Only way I would buy them over some of the newer guys in the game like SI or JL or BR or LT.

The truth is, I can't pick one that is absolute best AR. There are several excellent, all encompassing custom AR manufacturers. Generally, billet machined ARs with a light weight yet smooth piston (or gas, some of those new systems are pretty good too and fit 99% of what people need) and most importantly a quality custom barrels is where to start. The rest is pretty much just white noise and marketing mumbo jumbo. IN the end it is a gun so the same principles apply. Accuracy, reliability, and durability.

tombirdman · Post by **tombirdman** » 03 Feb 2012, 23:02

Cyberfly wrote:I still think the Ruger 556 is worth looking at.
Less money and a darn good rifle.

Hoodathunk I'd recommend a Ruger?!

:agree:

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

I second that !

I like mine as well as the HK.

tombirdman · Post by **tombirdman** » 03 Feb 2012, 23:10

FNtacticalNUT wrote:The Ruger 556 is a fine rifle. But to me it is very top heavy and nose heavy. After handling the SCAR and going to another platform is tough for me. The felt recoil is also much different. The only issue that I have with RUGER is it is INVESTMENT CASTING. I do not know if they do it wil the 556 but I would guess that they do because everything else they make is Investment Casting.
But I do like the platform of the RUGER 556 as they are a great value. :agree:

:thumb: :thumb:

They have a seperate investment casting business and make many things, including AR parts for other companies.
It is a very big business for them.

tombirdman · Post by **tombirdman** » 03 Feb 2012, 23:13

flyingirish04 wrote:She is forged like most mainstream ARs.

Great to see you back Fly!

:agree:

I agree !

They do forgings, not castings !

tombirdman · Post by **tombirdman** » 20 Aug 2012, 21:17

Cyberfly wrote:I still think the Ruger 556 is worth looking at.
Less money and a darn good rifle.

Hoodathunk I'd recommend a Ruger?!

:agree:

10/4

tombirdman · Post by **tombirdman** » 20 Aug 2012, 21:24

FNtacticalNUT wrote:The Ruger 556 is a fine rifle. But to me it is very top heavy and nose heavy. After handling the SCAR and going to another platform is tough for me. The felt recoil is also much different. The only issue that I have with RUGER is it is INVESTMENT CASTING. I do not know if they do it wil the 556 but I would guess that they do because everything else they make is Investment Casting.
But I do like the platform of the RUGER 556 as they are a great value. :agree:

Ruger has a business where they make AR and other parts for some of the big boys !
They were doing this long before they got into the AR business!

Post by **Cyberfly** » 21 Aug 2012, 05:10

Then it stands to reason that it was only a matter of time. If they were already making AR parts for some of the larger companies, it wasn't a far stretch for them to step out and put together their own AR.
I'll be honest, I don't think its as pretty as Colt's M4, but it really does come down to performance. Its not quite as comfortable as S&W's M&P was for me, but really close. Either way, I've always been a sucker for Rugers and they've never failed me so I wouldn't have any problem trusting one.

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