SCAR vs HK 556a

Discuss the FN lineup of tactical rifles; the FS2000, SCAR, and the venerable FAL.
Deathmaster
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SCAR vs HK 556a

Post by Deathmaster » 01 Dec 2011, 19:09

I used to collect and buy/sell pre-ban IMI Galils and definitely regret not keeping an SAR or a mint AR for my personal collection.

I have a Bushy now with an EOTech 512 and dig it fine but want to take a step up and keep this rifle for the long haul.

So, money not being a critical factor, would you go SCAR (.223) or HK 556a? The HK seems like a very refined rifle and I am an HK fan (previously owned HK91 and 91). I have never owned an FN FNC or FAL but have shot both and enjoyed them.

Thoughts?

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Re: SCAR vs HK 556a

Post by blueorison » 01 Dec 2011, 19:26

I don't think I had the chance to welcome you to the forum. Even if I did, welcome! :) Let me try to help you.

- Just by weight alone, SCAR wins hands down. Weight is very important to me; unless you do not plan on moving with it. You might not plan to, so it might not matter to you.
- SCAR contains much less small relocatable parts. It is also fold-able to be more compact than the HK.
- I assume price isn't a factor since you put the HK in there. SCAR wins.
- Reliability; they are both pretty new rifles, even if the HK is built on the AR platform somewhat. I've seen an HK G35C jam on full auto during a match. I've used the SCAR and loved it. That's my input. I wish I had shot the HK416 so I could help you out but I didn't want to shoot a full auto and waste my rounds.

Hope that helps you out.
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Re: SCAR vs HK 556a

Post by smpsmp » 01 Dec 2011, 19:53

I agree with Blue on this one, my vote is for the SCAR.

For me, even not counting in the small parts, and weight, it's just something different, and there's nothing like it out there right now. If you ever choose to then, you can basically change your Bushmaster to what the H&K is (shy of what the receiver is stamped).

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Re: SCAR vs HK 556a

Post by Deathmaster » 01 Dec 2011, 20:09

Thanks much for the detailed response and thanks for the welcome.

I am used to carrying around Galils and those things are tanks (especially the ARM) so I am not too worried about weight. The HK did feel very heavy... MUCH heavier than a typical AR. I was impressed with the ergonomics of the 556a... very comfortable pistol grip, etc... A full auto Galil is a blast if you have never shot one... too bad they run about 20K+ these days.

I agree about the G35C... it is also butt ugly! That gun was never one I had interest in. I haven't really heard anything bad about the 416 and the HK test vids are impressive. I think I am leaning towards the SCAR. I need to try to track one down to shoot in the DFW area before I take the plunge. I have only seen them in Dark Earth and Black. Are they available in OD Green to match my new Five Seven? Thanks again.

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Re: SCAR vs HK 556a

Post by blueorison » 01 Dec 2011, 20:35

A pistol grip is $20 and you can change it from a regular AR A2 grip to whatever is on the HK.

SMP's comment, humorous as it is, is so true. HK invests so much in itself; more pride than conscience. It's an AR, sir. Nothing new.

Look at Daniel Defense test vids. They are more impressive than HK's test vids. Further, any AR built correctly is just as good as the HK. But if you're an HK fan I'm wasting my breath, :)

The SCAR is not available in OD green, but you may cerakote it if you like. It's not that expensive, especially if you know someone (MikeSantor on our forum, perhaps). I also play with an OD green FsN and like it very much.

I'm from the DFW area, now residing in Austin, as my avatar might suggest. The ranges here are much more accommodating; perhaps you could try to see if any of them rents out SCARS? If you make it up here, bring a few of your favourite guns and you may shoot with me on my private range for free. I also have access to another private range further north with 6 tactical bays that are closed to public if you are afraid of unsafe people :)
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Re: SCAR vs HK 556a

Post by flyingirish04 » 01 Dec 2011, 20:55

I would take the HK, and it isn't close. The SCAR is decent, don't get me wrong, but I really feel it isn't worth its price, not in the least. Accuracy is not great. I have shot quite a few 17s and one 16, and none, I repeat none grouped under an inch. For their price, that is a must for me. Don't take my word for it. The USMC just went through extensive trials with the military SCAR 17 and 16 along side HK's upgrade to the 416 and a 7.62 version. The HK blew it out of the water.

I am not an HK fanboy, but the 556a is not just another AR. It is a match grade AR that will shoot under 1 MOA, guaranteed. It is designed off the 416 design they had for the military which may be the best piston system on the market. It is a million times smoother than the SCAR or most ARs. But it is heavier, and you pay for HK. IMO, there are much better options out there for the money. The SIG 556 Classic now with the 551 package would be on my list if I wanted a piston gun, and they are the best value for a carbine that money can buy right now.

I would buy a custom billet AR from some one like SI-Defense in MT. They make a piston gun as well, and their billets will cost you less than a SCAR and be lighter and WAY more accurate.

Just a different viewpoint. :thumb:
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Re: SCAR vs HK 556a

Post by tombirdman » 02 Dec 2011, 14:28

flyingirish04 wrote:I would take the HK, and it isn't close. The SCAR is decent, don't get me wrong, but I really feel it isn't worth its price, not in the least. Accuracy is not great. I have shot quite a few 17s and one 16, and none, I repeat none grouped under an inch. For their price, that is a must for me. Don't take my word for it. The USMC just went through extensive trials with the military SCAR 17 and 16 along side HK's upgrade to the 416 and a 7.62 version. The HK blew it out of the water.

I am not an HK fanboy, but the 556a is not just another AR. It is a match grade AR that will shoot under 1 MOA, guaranteed. It is designed off the 416 design they had for the military which may be the best piston system on the market. It is a million times smoother than the SCAR or most ARs. But it is heavier, and you pay for HK. IMO, there are much better options out there for the money. The SIG 556 Classic now with the 551 package would be on my list if I wanted a piston gun, and they are the best value for a carbine that money can buy right now.

I would buy a custom billet AR from some one like SI-Defense in MT. They make a piston gun as well, and their billets will cost you less than a SCAR and be lighter and WAY more accurate.

Just a different viewpoint. :thumb:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have a Ruger SR556 with an ACOG sight.
Aloso have SCAR16s & 17s.

Have shot the HK and liked.

The Ruger SR556 is just to close and a lot cheaper than the HK. Nearly, if not as accurate. Works on the same principals as the HK and their is very little difference mechanically and what there is, in my oppinion, favors the Ruger SR556. In any case I would encourage you to look at it ! Fourteen fourty for a complete piston, well thought out AR.

As far as the accuracy of the SCAR, it's design and anything else you would want to mention , The SCAR far outshines anything else + the military tests prove what it is.


Keep up on your research !

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Image


Whatever your decision, you are looking at some goos stuff.
You're the one that will live with your purchase so make up your own mind and go with your gut !

I assure you the comments about SCARS is negative and just plain wrong !
Personal experience.
Military research.
Public reaction to SCARS & etc. prove it

It will shoot 1moa all day with heavy match 223s of quality. I use "Private Partisan" 75 gr. Match.

If you can rent or shoot a 16s I think yu wil know !


.

.

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Re: SCAR vs HK 556a

Post by flyingirish04 » 02 Dec 2011, 14:48

Listen, I have plenty of time behind the SCAR, both in the Mk16 and 17 form, and the civi version. I am glad you love yours. Nothing worse than feeling you overpaid for a weapon. I am glad you don't feel that way.

What you claim about the SCAR is simply not true. It won't shoot under MOA. Not consistently. The SCAR has failed the only comprehensive test it has gone through, and lost to the HK. That would be the USMC IAR test. Look it up. Also, SOCOM has cancelled their SCAR 16 orders as well, for performance issues I described. You can google that too. I would suggest you do your research before you try and say I haven't done mine. :D :thumb:

I would love to debate FACTS with you, but I will not debate how you feel, as there is nothing I can say to bring objectivity to that. You show me military tests that herald the SCAR, I would love to read em. I like the look of the gun, I like the weight, and I like the stock design. That is all I like about it though. And as I said before, I am not an HK fan. The only two weapons I am a huge fan of they make is the 416, and the PSG-1.

Either way, your collection has four pretty good semiautos that I wouldn't mind having myself if money weren't an issue. They are just a lot further down on the list than the HK or a Sig 551. There is no questioning that you have some cool setups. And thanks for the pics. Always love the gun porn. :cya:
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Re: SCAR vs HK 556a

Post by blueorison » 02 Dec 2011, 18:14

Irish, do you mind going over which parts the SCAR failed in these military tests you indicated? I read the release at the beginning of this year but don't recall it. Did it relate to the accuracy and shot to shot repeat MOA?
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Re: SCAR vs HK 556a

Post by flyingirish04 » 02 Dec 2011, 19:32

It was the Mk16 LMG variant. It is the only one to go through an extensive military trial. The USMC is looking to replace their SAWs with more of a riflemans LMG. That is what the IAR is about. Infantryman's or Infantry (depending on who you talk to) Automatic Rifle. It is to be able to fire from both the open and closed bolt for fire-team automatic capability, and longer range assault rifle capability depending on the warzone need.

The Mk16 cancelled orders have to do with the fact that the operators just don't want them. At Bragg, the biggest gripe was with its durability. I have heard (second hand) it didn't shoot as well in the mud as the 416 did. Now that isn't to say that their aren't any being used in SOCOM, its just that they have cancelled all future orders. You can literally google the subject "mk16 Socom cancellation" and it will come up. You can also google "IAR Trials HK SCAR" and you will get countless hits about it. Part of it was cost claims many reporters, but from what I heard it was more than that. It simply didn't perform better than the M4 variants that already fit seemlessly into the military system. The Wikipedia entry isn't exactly accurate, so don't take it for face value, but it claims the XM18 outshined both the SCAR and 416 on stoppages. I have heard other reports. Fact is, the SCAR disappointed.

Word is that most SCARs now being chosen are 17s, however it isn't as popular with Tier 1 guys as the PSG-1 nor the new 417s that are circling around.

My gripe with the SCAR is the clunkiness of the piston, and accuracy problems. I have never had a problem with it jamming personally, though I never had any issue with the 416 either. Just seems like it could be a lot better for what you pay for it.
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Re: SCAR vs HK 556a

Post by fooschnickens » 02 Dec 2011, 19:53

The 556a is the civie version of the 416, yes?

Assuming they're the same except for the fun switch, I'd look at something else. There have been a lot of issues with the gas systems in them (buddy of mine in the norwegian army had his completely fail and not even HK was able to fix it) especially in colder areas. Granted not many people use their rifles at freezing temperatures but it kinda makes you wonder about the rest of it. I mean, hell, the gas selector switch just changes on its own (unless they recently fixed that) sometimes. Plus, didn't they stop making it because it had so many problems?

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Re: SCAR vs HK 556a

Post by flyingirish04 » 02 Dec 2011, 20:56

See I have had the exact opposite experience with the 416s. They have performed as well as anything. I have used it in subzero temps, as well as in the grit of the desert. I have never heard about the gas selector switch problems, and no, they are one of the most produced M4 piston variant out there. In fact it was a 416 that likely shot OBL. Are you thinking of something else maybe?

Either way, I am not a HK diehard. I loathed the G36s we got to play with at Bragg, and I hated the Mk23. It shot well, but it was too damn big. I don't really like any of their other pistols either. Don't feel right in my hand, P7M13 excluded. I would like one of those.
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Re: SCAR vs HK 556a

Post by toyslr » 03 Dec 2011, 09:35

Hate to bust the H&K fan section but its not all that either:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009 ... h-hk416-2/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk416-hk417- ... blems.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://gunnuts.net/2009/04/06/hk416-production-halted/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; this was updated http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009 ... suspended/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009 ... mpetition/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I personally think for every positive you find on a weapons platform you will find just as many naysayers. From what I have read up until the final testing Colt actually lead the competition then the H&K jumped to the lead even though its was 2nd or 3rd in failure to fire testing. Its amazing how everyone trumps a better rifle but yet forget the issues that the M16 faced in its beginnings and it was only after direct order from McNamara that it was placed in service

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Re: SCAR vs HK 556a

Post by flyingirish04 » 03 Dec 2011, 10:55

Yeah, see, not a fan, like I said, but one thing is for sure, the SCAR will never be adopted. FN could put together a new rifle and submit it in 20 years, but the SCAR won't ever be adopted by the military in any command distro form.

Also, not for nothing, but I heard the DMR version was canned as well. At least by NSW. They preferred sticking with the PSG-1.
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Re: SCAR vs HK 556a

Post by blueorison » 03 Dec 2011, 11:13

Wish someone besides Keltec and FN would make a compact, plastic .308 that I could use.

Instead of saturating the fanboy market with more useless ARs.
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Re: SCAR vs HK 556a

Post by flyingirish04 » 03 Dec 2011, 12:42

I personally see nothing wrong with ARs. Nothing to do with fanboyism. Its about modularity and functionality. I personally love that there are options in the AR market. It keeps innovation in piston tech going, and it keeps costs down.

Is there over-saturation right now? Yes, but it will work out.

I do wish there were more options in other platforms, including AKs, Sig 551 variants, especially in 7.62Nato, and I think FN needs to lower their SCAR price to what they are worth, which is about 1600 bucks, and that is for the 17.
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Re: SCAR vs HK 556a

Post by Wollychop » 03 Dec 2011, 17:36

They have no reason to lower the price of either SCAR variant as long as people are willing to pay the asking price. There isn't some objective authority out there assigning prices.

You may think that the SCAR 16s is a $1400 gun (which it might be), but until the market drives the price down, and people aren't willing to pay 2k plus, the price will be what the price is.

To be honest, when I look at ARs and what I have in my SCAR, and what I'd have to dump into an off-the-shelf AR to make it "what I want", I really don't have a problem with the SCAR's price point, considering the fact that I can't just get a folding stock AR-15 or 10 that easily, either.

Now, did I pay that much for my Sig 556? Nah. And they are both piston guns, both take STANAG, etc.

Bottom line, I guess, is that if people weren't willing to pay, the price wouldn't be where it is.

Similar to pro ball. People complain about how much ball players make, but they still buy tickets to the games and buy the shoes they advertise. The market justifies the price, and the sales support the price tags. Why change?

FWIW, I have no issue whatsoever with a $500 bargain bin AR-15, either. It's up to the person writing the check to decide what they are willing to spend on what.

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Re: SCAR vs HK 556a

Post by flyingirish04 » 03 Dec 2011, 17:44

Wollychop wrote:They have no reason to lower the price of either SCAR variant as long as people are willing to pay the asking price. There isn't some objective authority out there assigning prices.

You may think that the SCAR 16s is a $1400 gun (which it might be), but until the market drives the price down, and people aren't willing to pay 2k plus, the price will be what the price is.

To be honest, when I look at ARs and what I have in my SCAR, and what I'd have to dump into an off-the-shelf AR to make it "what I want", I really don't have a problem with the SCAR's price point, considering the fact that I can't just get a folding stock AR-15 or 10 that easily, either.

Now, did I pay that much for my Sig 556? Nah. And they are both piston guns, both take STANAG, etc.

Bottom line, I guess, is that if people weren't willing to pay, the price wouldn't be where it is.

Similar to pro ball. People complain about how much ball players make, but they still buy tickets to the games and buy the shoes they advertise. The market justifies the price, and the sales support the price tags. Why change?

FWIW, I have no issue whatsoever with a $500 bargain bin AR-15, either. It's up to the person writing the check to decide what they are willing to spend on what.
No arguments with anything you said Wolly. I was just saying what it would take for me to own one. And, I think the hype for the SCAR is waning. Every store that sells them (Scheels doesn't) has at least two on the shelves and they have been there for months.
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Re: SCAR vs HK 556a

Post by panzermk2 » 03 Dec 2011, 22:48

blueorison wrote:Wish someone besides Keltec and FN would make a compact, plastic .308 that I could use.

Instead of saturating the fanboy market with more useless ARs.

An FS2000 in .308 is what your asking for then isn't it?

I prefer the FS2000 over the SCARE light. The compact package is just to appealing to me.
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Re: SCAR vs HK 556a

Post by blueorison » 03 Dec 2011, 23:20

Yeah, basically. I like the RFB over the FS2000, though, because it's much simpler with less moving parts.

I'm going to look into more bullpup plastic .308's. Problem with them is that their triggers SUCK. The good ones are usually custom that cost 4-5$. The RFB already has a better trigger for a bullpup.
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