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Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Posted: 06 Jul 2011, 08:49
by Grantness
40gr TSX would be cool... Or just a copy or something similar to the ~27gr ss195/198 bullet.

Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Posted: 06 Jul 2011, 19:18
by eVenom
or maybe something even lighter like a <25gr

What I've learned after just finishing up 1 pound of powder

Posted: 09 Jul 2011, 13:16
by Tony S
Gun is an AR57 with the standard 16" barrel. The powder is Blue Dot. Primers have mainly been CCI small rifle. Bullets have been 35, 40. and most recently, 52 gr SP Dogtowns from Midway. This is by no means a step-by-step guide. This is just what I've learned and done while reloading the round.

1. With an average charge of ~6 grains, I figure I've loaded up over a thousand rounds at this point. All of my brass has come from buying factory SS197 ammo. So far with some brass being reloaded at the 5X point, I have had no case problems.

I have noticed that I have a few loose primer pockets so I'll need to keep an eye on that.

2. My set-up is the cheapest Lee press and I use RCBS dies. I have yet to trim any case. I must say that the Lee quick-change collar thing is pretty good. Once you get it where you want it, you lock it down and the next time out just drop the whole shebang into the press. Fast.

3. When I first started the reloading and chrony'ing the loads it really didn't seem to make a lot of difference accuracy-wise how miuch powder I was using as long as the load was doing over ~2100 fps. All of these loads popped everything into a less than 1" hole at 50 yards. I chrony'd the SS197 factory 40 grain load right at this number.

4. I bought the 52 grain Dogtowns because they were really inexpensive and, according to the ballistics calculators, should have the perfect length for the 8.5 twist AR57 barrel. I loaded a few of these with 6 grains of blue Dot and my son shot a 0.8" 5 shot group at 100 yards. The gun has a bipod but no rear rest was used. This seems plenty good to me. I'll take the chrony next time out and post the results for this load. There was no indication of pressure or any other problems with this load. These are also flat-base bullets and that may or may not have anything to do with anything.

5. I've been cleaning the brass with whatever dishwashing detergent is in the house at the time. I soak for maybe 15 minutes then swirl then cases around by hand for maybe 10 minutes and let them dry overnite. I then clean the primer pocket and start loading. I have never crimped any load and have never had a failure to feed or a failure to cycle because of a pulled bullet with this gun.

6. I have two magazines for the gun. One is an ATI and it simply does not work. Now, this magazine is over two years old so maybe a newer one is OK. I also have a mag I bought directly from AR57 and it works flawlessly. As long as I load to an OAL of 1.57" to 1.59", everything feeds and cycles well. I have never applied any kind of a finish to the cases. When I was trying to load the 35 gr Hornady V-max's, they were just too short to work well. AT least in my gun, if the load length is too short the rounds jam up trying to make the turn in the magazine. These longer, lead-free 35 grain jobs look very interesting.

7. I have a load of brass that I neck/shoulder annealed at the 5x reload point. I'm keeping track of this brass in comparison to the 5x un-annealed stuff and it will be interesting to see if the annealing helps case life. Since it seems like everybody who shoots this caliber sees the dented cases and extreme shoulder movement (I'm no different), softening up that area seemed like a good idea.

8. I love shooting this gun!! It is accurate, soft-recoiling, and never fails to draw a crowd at the range. I'll post the chrony results with the 52 grain Dogtowns. I calculated that I was loading these for right around 13 cents a shot. Using the Hornady's and the Sierra's had the cost above this.

Again, this isn't being presented as some end-all and be-all loading guide, Since the header spells out the random reloading nature of things, this seemed like the best place to post this what I've seen. Maybe it will help somebody starting out.

Tony S.

Re: What I've learned after just finishing up 1 pound of pow

Posted: 09 Jul 2011, 22:32
by VeTTeMaNC486
Tony S wrote:Gun is an AR57 with the standard 16" barrel. The powder is Blue Dot. Primers have mainly been CCI small rifle. Bullets have been 35, 40. and most recently, 52 gr SP Dogtowns from Midway. This is by no means a step-by-step guide. This is just what I've learned and done while reloading the round.

1. With an average charge of ~6 grains, I figure I've loaded up over a thousand rounds at this point. All of my brass has come from buying factory SS197 ammo. So far with some brass being reloaded at the 5X point, I have had no case problems.

I have noticed that I have a few loose primer pockets so I'll need to keep an eye on that.

2. My set-up is the cheapest Lee press and I use RCBS dies. I have yet to trim any case. I must say that the Lee quick-change collar thing is pretty good. Once you get it where you want it, you lock it down and the next time out just drop the whole shebang into the press. Fast.

3. When I first started the reloading and chrony'ing the loads it really didn't seem to make a lot of difference accuracy-wise how miuch powder I was using as long as the load was doing over ~2100 fps. All of these loads popped everything into a less than 1" hole at 50 yards. I chrony'd the SS197 factory 40 grain load right at this number.

4. I bought the 52 grain Dogtowns because they were really inexpensive and, according to the ballistics calculators, should have the perfect length for the 8.5 twist AR57 barrel. I loaded a few of these with 6 grains of blue Dot and my son shot a 0.8" 5 shot group at 100 yards. The gun has a bipod but no rear rest was used. This seems plenty good to me. I'll take the chrony next time out and post the results for this load. There was no indication of pressure or any other problems with this load. These are also flat-base bullets and that may or may not have anything to do with anything.

5. I've been cleaning the brass with whatever dishwashing detergent is in the house at the time. I soak for maybe 15 minutes then swirl then cases around by hand for maybe 10 minutes and let them dry overnite. I then clean the primer pocket and start loading. I have never crimped any load and have never had a failure to feed or a failure to cycle because of a pulled bullet with this gun.

6. I have two magazines for the gun. One is an ATI and it simply does not work. Now, this magazine is over two years old so maybe a newer one is OK. I also have a mag I bought directly from AR57 and it works flawlessly. As long as I load to an OAL of 1.57" to 1.59", everything feeds and cycles well. I have never applied any kind of a finish to the cases. When I was trying to load the 35 gr Hornady V-max's, they were just too short to work well. AT least in my gun, if the load length is too short the rounds jam up trying to make the turn in the magazine. These longer, lead-free 35 grain jobs look very interesting.

7. I have a load of brass that I neck/shoulder annealed at the 5x reload point. I'm keeping track of this brass in comparison to the 5x un-annealed stuff and it will be interesting to see if the annealing helps case life. Since it seems like everybody who shoots this caliber sees the dented cases and extreme shoulder movement (I'm no different), softening up that area seemed like a good idea.

8. I love shooting this gun!! It is accurate, soft-recoiling, and never fails to draw a crowd at the range. I'll post the chrony results with the 52 grain Dogtowns. I calculated that I was loading these for right around 13 cents a shot. Using the Hornady's and the Sierra's had the cost above this.

Again, this isn't being presented as some end-all and be-all loading guide, Since the header spells out the random reloading nature of things, this seemed like the best place to post this what I've seen. Maybe it will help somebody starting out.

Tony S.
Awesome. I'd like to know how fast those 52grs are going. I was having mag pop problems with 6gr of blue dot and 55gr fmjs. IIRC I was getting close to 2k fps. If you are looking for a cheap way to reload, I would recommend looking into buying some pulled ss197 40gr vmax from EA. 15 bucks for 250 bullets! When I ordered my mag springs I just threw in 1k because they were so cheap. :thumb:

On a different note, has anyone with an AR57, that reloads or shoots EA, had issues with the magazine popping with full power loads?

Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Posted: 13 Jul 2011, 13:02
by Grantness
Just checked out the latest article of Handloader magazine and they had a nice article on all the Accurate powders. What vexes me is they never even mention Acc#7, #5, or even #9's possible use in 5.7x28 despite the fact that Accurate/WesternPowders has published loads as well as the Lyman 49th manual... He went to great lengths describing how versatile the pistol and even shotgun powders were, but apparently either didn't do his research or felt it wasn't worth mentioning.

There was also an additional article on No. 9 specifically that was somewhat interesting.... describing how and when they switched over to the new manufacturer in FL. Unfortunately, the article was a bit iffy on whether he actually received the NEW No. 9 because there was a label on the canister marked 'made in Belgium'. Western Powders assured him that those were surplus labels and he had indeed received the newer powder. He noted no differences between the look/smell & velocities between old and (ostensibly) new No. 9. I dunno....seems strange to me, but this guy is well respected and I have trouble believing Western Powders would lie to a man like that.

Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Posted: 13 Jul 2011, 14:53
by iFire
Grantness wrote:There was also an additional article on No. 9 specifically that was somewhat interesting.... describing how and when they switched over to the new manufacturer in FL. Unfortunately, the article was a bit iffy on whether he actually received the NEW No. 9 because there was a label on the canister marked 'made in Belgium'. Western Powders assured him that those were surplus labels and he had indeed received the newer powder. He noted no differences between the look/smell & velocities between old and (ostensibly) new No. 9. I dunno....seems strange to me, but this guy is well respected and I have trouble believing Western Powders would lie to a man like that.
:ponder:


The difference between old #9 and new #9 might not be that large when used in the 5.7x28 - SInce #9 is slow to begin with (in relation to this caliber) there might not be large differences seen when testing, especially in the pistol. However, the difference in the A#7 change I recorded was around 100 fps with equal charge and bullets - and the difference is noticeable in the visible 'look' of the powders.

Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Posted: 13 Jul 2011, 15:44
by Grantness
Yep, that's about the difference i've seen between their load data and what my new No. 7 gets.

Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Posted: 20 Jul 2011, 02:13
by ehryk
iFire, couple o questions for ya here;

have you tried VV 3N38 for the FsN? I was able to get to 7.8 grains max for the pistol. At 8.0 I had a case rupture and decided that was far enough lol With the PS90, pretty much any charge using 3N38 will pop the mag, so it's out for me. Shame, it's a fast powder.

What are the chances of making a list of powders that are unsuitable and/or dangerous so no one unknowingly tries them?

As for blending powders... I have reloaded for over 30 years. I read up on it some, but just never had the balls to even considder doing it lol With your background and education, it's not so bad, but still, I'll give ya the brass balls award here lol

Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Posted: 20 Jul 2011, 07:57
by ddouglas
I have been following the 5.7 hand loading threads for a couple of years now. I've been hand loading other calibers for a bit longer than I have the 5.7. It is of interest to me to know "why" the 5.7 round is continually pushed to find a maximum load--meaning one that gives maximum speed but not yet damaging the case or popping a primer. None of the other hand loading forums that I read--those dealing with everything from .380 Auto to 45-70 black powder seem fixated on achieving "the max". The emphasis in the other forums is to find the most accurate load, not the fastest speed. New bullets and new powders are evaluated to find the most accurate combination in the owner's firearms. Depending on the applicability (hunting, target, long-distance target, etc.) bullets are also evaluated their penetration and effectiveness. But not singularly focussed on speed for speed's sake. So what is there in the minds of the 5.7 guys (and gals) that cause the focus to be single-minded on speed? Surely finding a round that is the "fastest", while it might seem "good" for a few dozen shots, cannot be beneficial to the long-term mechanical health of the firearm. The abuse absorbed by the bolt, action, barrel, etc. with these rounds will eventually take its toll on the longevity of the gun. And it is of little value if the bullet doesn't go where it's aimed. Yes? No?

To illustrate a rational approach towards loading the 5.7, EA's emphasis seems to be geared to a round that meets a specific need or requirement. That's a good thing. EA doesn't fixate on speed. But most of what I read here is just more bang. Isn't the quest for "more speed" in the absence of more meaningful goals misplaced?

Shouldn't the focus be on accuracy (and some measured effectiveness)--which is what most of us care about for most situations?

Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Posted: 20 Jul 2011, 08:56
by panzermk2
I know the answer to this. Basically 2 reasons

1) Most guys get into the 5.7x28 because they are 10mm fans. That is how I got into it in a round about way through another PDW round created about the same time as the 5.7. It was the BOZ. 10mm necked down to .223. It never went anywhere other then custom handguns it does not exist really.

10mm= Speed Freaks

This is why so many forum members have 10mm handguns also.

2) A very large percentage of 5.7 owners are engineers of some sort, heck we even have a few rocket scientists as members. Engineers like to explore and push limits of any given design even a light switch they just can't keep from fiddling with. Basically engineers love to re-engineer.

Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Posted: 20 Jul 2011, 13:34
by iFire
The above + a few other things...

I really enjoy the PS90 platform - but it only comes in one caliber 5.7x28... If it came in other calibers one could simply move up to the largest caliber they wanted/needed ( ie AR's come in a whole bunch of calibers so you can pick the size that is right for your particular application)

Being stuck with the 5.7x28 in the PS90, it becomes the desire of many to push it to see just what it can do and the variety of applications it can be used for. For instance, I personally wouldnt want to use ss197 for deer, even though it would technically work with the proper shot placement. However, Max Hand Loads or EA's protector for instance have a substantially higher KE potential (in some cases almost 40-50% more) which makes it MUCH better (even though it may not be 'ideal')...

Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Posted: 20 Jul 2011, 13:52
by iFire
ehryk wrote:iFire, couple o questions for ya here;

What are the chances of making a list of powders that are unsuitable and/or dangerous so no one unknowingly tries them?
Yeah I could work on something like a 'bad" powder list - I would have to put some thought into what that would look like since some powders that are 'bad' for full power loads actually work well with subsonics...

As for the mixing powders - I wont share data but yeah it can work really well, I have developed some really good loads, both in Speed AND in Low Standard Deviations. But it is definitely tricky and a recipe for disaster if done improperly - Thanks for the 'Brass Balls' award though :laugh:

Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Posted: 30 Jul 2011, 14:01
by kos1966
Has anyone tried titegroup to reload with I am reloading 40 gr nosler ct and have been using accurate 5 it has been doing well but don't like it for my other weapons and want to try to stick with hogdon powder because it is easy to get in my area. I also use clays for some of my bullets but figured it is not the best for the 5.7 I have a ps90 so any help or input appreciated.

Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Posted: 02 Aug 2011, 19:47
by MikeSantor
Finally starting to put my shopping list together to start reloading. This could get interesting...

Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Posted: 03 Aug 2011, 22:15
by VeTTeMaNC486
kos1966 wrote:Has anyone tried titegroup to reload with I am reloading 40 gr nosler ct and have been using accurate 5 it has been doing well but don't like it for my other weapons and want to try to stick with hogdon powder because it is easy to get in my area. I also use clays for some of my bullets but figured it is not the best for the 5.7 I have a ps90 so any help or input appreciated.
I do not have any experience with Acc #5; but if you want to use hodgdon powder, I would recommend getting some HS6. If you load 9mm its a good powder for it as well. I use it in 9mm, .40sw, 5.7, and .45 (not ideal for 45 but it is what I have.).

Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Posted: 04 Aug 2011, 19:05
by iFire
kos1966 wrote:Has anyone tried titegroup to reload with I am reloading 40 gr nosler ct and have been using accurate 5 it has been doing well but don't like it for my other weapons and want to try to stick with hogdon powder because it is easy to get in my area. I also use clays for some of my bullets but figured it is not the best for the 5.7 I have a ps90 so any help or input appreciated.
HS6 works very well, and is a very good functioning crossover powder between the FsN and PS90. Try 6.2 grs with your 40 grain bullets. 6.2 grains should give you around ~ 1800 fps from the FsN and ~ 2200 from the PS90.

Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Posted: 07 Aug 2011, 18:32
by MikeSantor
Ok first stupid reloading question. I have spent the last hour googling and cant fine the answer to this. So you have brass from say SS197. It was obviously the right length before you shot it. So why does the brass OAL need to be resized or messed with at all AFTER it has been shot? Sorry for the dumb question but every website I have read about re sizing brass all talks about brass for one size of ammunition being re sized for a different caliber.

One other thing. Is there any reason to NOT clean your brass if you dont have intentions of loading it for say 3-6 months? Im steady building my loading bench and dont plan on having everything till the end of the year. Figured I would get my brass all cleaned while im buying everything I need. Will be doing 5.7 and 9mm to start off. I will be cleaning and polishing the 9mm and just cleaning the 5.7.

Bare with me guys. Im reading as much as I can get my hands on...

Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Posted: 07 Aug 2011, 19:18
by f3rr37
During the extraction process after a round has been fired, the brass softens and expands to the chamber dimensions. Due to friction, brass sticks to the chamber and when pulled out it stretches ever so slightly. You can see the result of this by just looking at the shoulder of a fired round compared to an unfired round, the neck is pushed forward during the extraction.

As for cleaning, doesn't really matter as long as it is cleaned prior to reloading it. Clean brass is happy brass. :)

Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Posted: 07 Aug 2011, 19:21
by MikeSantor
Thanks man. I shell start cleaning my brass!

Re: 5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

Posted: 07 Aug 2011, 20:10
by f3rr37
MikeSantor wrote:Thanks man. I shell start cleaning my brass!
Welcome. :) I'm cleaning some .308WIN brass right now in my ultrasonic cleaner. :)