5.7x28 Random Reloading Discussions

iFire · Post by **iFire** » 17 Jun 2011, 21:53

VeTTeMaNC486 wrote:Looking forward to it. Seems to go completely against "they" say about 296. I can't say I have ever heard of 296/h110 being used in anything resembling a reduced load :laugh:

For subs are you just going to use just 55gr fmjs or have you considered trying something heavier, like a 62gr fmj? Not sure how well those would stabilize...

I have already done a lot of testing with 296 subs - all of them have worked amazingly well... I have used mostly 55gr bullets, but have also tried some 68 grain Hornady Match HP bullets - A lot more energy can be deliverd while still remaining subsonic - I am not sure at what distance they may (or may not) start to tumble... We will see...

VeTTeMaNC486 · Post by **VeTTeMaNC486** » 17 Jun 2011, 22:12

iFire wrote:
VeTTeMaNC486 wrote: We don't really learn much about that kinda stuff in my Electrical Engineering classes :laugh: . (Which I am finally starting to get into after taking so many freaking core classes/pre-reqs... 2 more years and counting... ).

iFire, if you do not mind, could you post a picture of the projectiles in question side by side (40gr vmax, 35gr nlf, 35gr nxt, and possibly the 28gr ss195), it would probably go well with our discussion.
3 years of Various Physics, 2 years of BioChemistry, 4 years of Physical Chemistry and 2 years of Organic Chemistry - Im glad college is just a memory now for me...

Good luck with your final 2 years :p

---

I have Lots of .224 bullets, including the few you mentioned - when i get the NTX's i will post a pic of as many of them as possible in a neat little line...

I'm going to need it :laugh:
I've only had 2 semesters of just basic calculus based physics. Dude teach had his doctorate's in Physics and taught the class like he was teaching a Grad level class. I didn't take much from the class, heck I was just happy to get out of the darn thing :laugh: .

Post by **Grantness** » 18 Jun 2011, 09:30

IMO and others', H110 is not appropriate for full power 5.7x28 loads in a blowback weapon. 296 is still a question to be answered...

iFire · Post by **iFire** » 18 Jun 2011, 13:01

I shot a lot of test rounds today - Here's the Subsonic portion of the testing - The other info will make it into my data threads when i get the chance.

FsN | 5.5 grs Win 296 | 55gr Hornady FMJ | CCI 400 | SS195 Brass

N=7

Avg - 1071 fps
ES - 35 fps
SD - 15 fps

Great ejection on all shots ~ 15ft to the right - 45 degrees forward of center

I like win 296 for 55gr subs from the FsN - the best and most consistent ejection of any powder i have tested yet with 55's...

---

FsN | Win 296 | 68gr Hornady Match HP | CCI 400 | SS195 Brass

5.0grs - 941 fps
5.5grs - 1111 fps

Great ejection on both shots ~ 10ft to the right - 15 degrees forward of center

I will have to run some tests in the 5.2-5.3gr range and i should be able to hit the mark of 1050fps...

---

FsN | Win AutoComp | 68gr Hornady Match HP | CCI 400 | SS195 Brass

3.2grs - 1101 fps
3.2grs - 1101 fps
3.4grs - 1142 fps
3.4grs - 1138 fps

Great ejection on all 4 shots ~ 8ft to the right - 20 degrees forward of center

The consistency of AutoComp with the 68gr bullet was amazing - I will have to do some more tests!

Post by **Grantness** » 18 Jun 2011, 15:39

Excellent! Im jealous... gonna have to hop back on that horse :laugh:

Prob best to leave this thread for "random questions" and discussions anyways...

iFire · Post by **iFire** » 18 Jun 2011, 16:34

Grant - I like the 5.5gr 296 load with 55's - give it a whirl if you want - It has its own trademark 'feel' to it :thumb:

The 68 gr bullets are also neat to use - at some point I am going to put them on paper to test for tumbling. I just haven't done that yet - too busy putting them through the chrony...

VeTTeMaNC486 · Post by **VeTTeMaNC486** » 18 Jun 2011, 16:46

Grantness wrote:IMO and others', H110 is not appropriate for full power 5.7x28 loads in a blowback weapon. 296 is still a question to be answered...

I thought the two powders were the same thing?

I bet h110 would be neat with a gas operated or some other locking bolt/breach/whatever

Have you tried it in your T/C?

VeTTeMaNC486 · Post by **VeTTeMaNC486** » 18 Jun 2011, 16:47

iFire wrote:I shot a lot of test rounds today - Here's the Subsonic portion of the testing - The other info will make it into my data threads when i get the chance.

FsN | 5.5 grs Win 296 | 55gr Hornady FMJ | CCI 400 | SS195 Brass

N=7

Avg - 1071 fps
ES - 35 fps
SD - 15 fps

Great ejection on all shots ~ 15ft to the right - 45 degrees forward of center

I like win 296 for 55gr subs from the FsN - the best and most consistent ejection of any powder i have tested yet with 55's...

---

FsN | Win 296 | 68gr Hornady Match HP | CCI 400 | SS195 Brass

5.0grs - 941 fps
5.5grs - 1111 fps

Great ejection on both shots ~ 10ft to the right - 15 degrees forward of center

I will have to run some tests in the 5.2-5.3gr range and i should be able to hit the mark of 1050fps...

---

FsN | Win AutoComp | 68gr Hornady Match HP | CCI 400 | SS195 Brass

3.2grs - 1101 fps
3.2grs - 1101 fps
3.4grs - 1142 fps
3.4grs - 1138 fps

Great ejection on all 4 shots ~ 8ft to the right - 20 degrees forward of center

The consistency of AutoComp with the 68gr bullet was amazing - I will have to do some more tests!

Cool :thumb:
Im curious to see if those 68grs tumble

iFire · Post by **iFire** » 18 Jun 2011, 16:52

VeTTeMaNC486 wrote:
Grantness wrote:IMO and others', H110 is not appropriate for full power 5.7x28 loads in a blowback weapon. 296 is still a question to be answered...
I thought the two powders were the same thing?

I bet h110 would be neat with a gas operated or some other locking bolt/breach/whatever

Have you tried it in your T/C?

296 and H110 are the same - they come from the same manufacturer. Variations between the two would most likely only be in lot differences...

Lil' gun, 296, Enforcer, AA#9 among several others would be really interesting in a locked breach or contender type gun :thumb: That would be fun to test...

Post by **Grantness** » 18 Jun 2011, 17:51

Lets just say a few years back, certain people had major issues with full power H110 loads...

Actually, I've seen a lot of people use Acc#9 in blowback guns for some reason. Dunno why you would want to, cause #7 is much better suited. Enforcer too. Do not use Lil' Gun in a blowback gun.

Yea, I planned to try out all of these powders in my T/C before my problems happened and I took my leave. Now I kinda don't want to experiment so much with it b/c Im trying to sell it, and the twist rate is 1in12....so results would be impossible to correlate w/ a blowback gun. Im sure the slower twist rate also means the gun would be better suited for slower powders.

Subsonic has never particularly enticed me w/ this gun b/c if I needed to shoot and kill something quietly, I'd rather have more kinetic energy behind the bullet. However, it's always nice to have a couple loads I know will work just in case I need to do some quiet practice. I don't really have any 55gr bullets (except loaded XM293 which I'd have to pull). 52gr FB Matchking is the heaviest I have. I have some 50gr Nosler Silvertips, but so far I have not been able to get them to match the kinetic energy of the 40gr Silvertips. I suppose I could get it to go subsonic....but then there's no kinetic energy again...

I look forward to your heavy bullet tumbling tests iFire. That's a good idea. :thumb: Maybe set up several sheets of paper along the flight path to see where it starts to yaw :ponder:

iFire · Post by **iFire** » 18 Jun 2011, 18:10

Grantness wrote:Actually, I've seen a lot of people use Acc#9 in blowback guns for some reason. Dunno why you would want to, cause #7 is much better suited. Enforcer too. Do not use Lil' Gun in a blowback gun.:

Grant - Accurate #9 works relatively well actually in the PS90... I agree it's not that great in the FsN though...

The reason I liked Accurate #9 in the PS90:

1) High fill volume for beginning / cautious reloaders (cannot be double charged...)
2) Never had the magazine pop up causing a jam (I have had mag pops with AA#7)

Is AA#9 ideal? No. But it does make for some good range/plinking loads out of the PS90..

I have said this before - but there is a suprising amount of difference between the FsN and PS90 as to what works well - Likely Due both to barrel length as well as bolt/slide weight and design...

Post by **Grantness** » 18 Jun 2011, 18:21

Im sure there are huge differences. Crossover has been a bit of a mystery until you came along. Meanwhile, Im dying to get an AR57 upper. What are the odds someone else comes along w/ an Excel that reloads too?

iFire · Post by **iFire** » 18 Jun 2011, 21:10

Grantness wrote:ahhh....Excel....wish I was that organized! Best I can do is copy smudged range notes onto the forum :laugh:

I quoted you from the Subsonic post Grant... I didnt want to clutter it with my pics there - thats what this random thread is for :laugh: Anyway...

I like the setup I have with excel - it makes managing my reloading posts SO much easier, just copy and paste and if I get more data I just add it to the excel sheet which auto calculates all of the data for me and I re-copy and paste. Its that easy :thumb:

What Excel Looks Like - The actual shot data doesnt get transfered, just the first 4 columns of data...

What that translates to on the forum -

Post by **panzermk2** » 18 Jun 2011, 22:44

One of the things I am noticing with the new FsN reciol spring.

Ammo testing today S4M and S4
Hardly any shoulder movement at all, looks like SS195 brass.
100 fps increase in velocity. About I had a hard time getting consistent measurements out side of the noramlvaraitions
Primers where more beat up.

Looks like with the barrel held closed longer and the shoulder not moving the primer takes a beating. Lil Gun may be back in the running. Just saying.

VeTTeMaNC486 · Post by **VeTTeMaNC486** » 19 Jun 2011, 05:31

panzermk2 wrote:One of the things I am noticing with the new FsN reciol spring.

Ammo testing today S4M and S4
Hardly any shoulder movement at all, looks like SS195 brass.
100 fps increase in velocity. About I had a hard time getting consistent measurements out side of the noramlvaraitions
Primers where more beat up.

Looks like with the barrel held closed longer and the shoulder not moving the primer takes a beating. Lil Gun may be back in the running. Just saying.

100 more fps, wow thats screaming :thumb:

iFire · Post by **iFire** » 19 Jun 2011, 05:35

panzermk2 wrote:One of the things I am noticing with the new FsN reciol spring.

Looks like with the barrel held closed longer and the shoulder not moving the primer takes a beating. Lil Gun may be back in the running. Just saying.

Now, add to that the new extended FsN barrel and things will change all over again! More powder burn time in the longer barrel along with the slide held closed longer - Hello Lil'Gun, Enforcer, etc!

Post by **Grantness** » 19 Jun 2011, 11:14

Perhaps I might have to buy some Acc#9 and other slower powders... 100fps....mmmm :drool: Throw in the 8" barrel and we're going to have an unstoppable platform!!

Small rifle primers are stronger (in terms of how they hold up) than Small Pistol Magnum, correct? Glue might be in order, but unless you know what you're doing...you're playing w/ fire :furious:

iFire · Post by **iFire** » 19 Jun 2011, 12:02

You could always step up to Small Rifle Magnum Primers - they have even thicker cups yet...

Maybe a powder like enforcer or AA#9, etc with a magnum primer would work well in the new 8inch barrel with the heavier spring...

Theres a lot of possibilities... :thumb:

VeTTeMaNC486 · Post by **VeTTeMaNC486** » 19 Jun 2011, 12:36

Oh how bad I want a FsN to play with you guys.

Will probably be my first gift to myself when I graduate.

iFire · Post by **iFire** » 19 Jun 2011, 13:20

VeTTeMaNC486 wrote:Oh how bad I want a FsN to play with you guys.
Will probably be my first gift to myself when I graduate.

At least you have the PS90. (right?)

While the FsN is really fun to play with, the PS90 is by far and away my favorite gun/design

I have some top shelf AR's that often sit at home when I head to the range - While the AR's are 'better' in most aspects, that are not nearly as fun to play with

Post by **Grantness** » 19 Jun 2011, 16:50

I've never heard of anyone using a Small Rifle Magnum in a PS90 successfully w/ max loads.... Not saying its impossible, just prob inadvisable w/ standard loads.

iFire · Post by **iFire** » 19 Jun 2011, 17:22

Grantness wrote:I've never heard of anyone using a Small Rifle Magnum in a PS90 successfully w/ max loads....

I haven't tried them yet but I will here at some point - looks like I'll be the first

They would work well with the slower powders like Enforcer of AA#9...

There are just soo many possibilities that its hard to try everything :laugh:

Post by **Grantness** » 19 Jun 2011, 18:01

BE CAREFUL

VeTTeMaNC486 · Post by **VeTTeMaNC486** » 19 Jun 2011, 21:57

iFire wrote:
VeTTeMaNC486 wrote:Oh how bad I want a FsN to play with you guys.
Will probably be my first gift to myself when I graduate.
At least you have the PS90. (right?)

While the FsN is really fun to play with, the PS90 is by far and away my favorite gun/design

I have some top shelf AR's that often sit at home when I head to the range - While the AR's are 'better' in most aspects, that are not nearly as fun to play with

Yes, I know. I am fortunate to have it and am not being ungreatful. I honestly knew very little about the round and platform when I purchased it. I didn't really have much desire for a FsN until I started reloading and read some of the speed you guys are getting out of them. 2000+fps out of a pistol is smoking :thumb: .

iFire · Post by **iFire** » 20 Jun 2011, 09:02

Turning back to random things: :laugh:

-----

Nosler 35gr Lead Free:

OAL: .736"
BRSF: ~ .320"

Hornady 35gr NTX:

OAL: .730"
BRSF: ~ .225"

Hornady 40gr Vmax:

OAL: .691"
BRSF: ~ .178"

SS195 28gr:

OAL: .814"
BRSF: ~ .325"

Barnes 45gr BS*:

OAL: .760"
BRSF: ~ .330" minus the 2 bands of .060" leaves approx .210" -

*This bullet is made from a different material, so its bound to work differently...

-------

BRSF = Bearing Surface - the best estimates i can make...

As you can see from the above the Nosler 35gr has a substantially larger bearing surface... From the Pictures I have seen it looks like the 35gr Hornady NTX will be much closer to the 40gr Vmax dimensions than the 35gr NLF dimensions.

What that means is yet to be determined in perfomance - It could be very different in the FsN and PS90...

I will post the exact measurements when i get the NTX's in hand :thumb:

VeTTeMaNC486 · Post by **VeTTeMaNC486** » 20 Jun 2011, 10:45

That is a biggg 35gr bullet. I wonder how it performs in tissue?

iFire · Post by **iFire** » 20 Jun 2011, 15:01

VeTTeMaNC486 wrote:That is a biggg 35gr bullet. I wonder how it performs in tissue?

There's definitely a big bearing surface difference between the 35 gr NLF and 40 gr Vmax - thats for sure.

It would be interesting to put some of the new bullets like the 35 NLF and NTX up against say the 40 Vmax in a few different types of expansion and penetration tests in various media...

VeTTeMaNC486 · Post by **VeTTeMaNC486** » 20 Jun 2011, 15:51

I'm curious, do you happen to have those measurements of the ss195 bullet?

iFire · Post by **iFire** » 20 Jun 2011, 16:42

VeTTeMaNC486 wrote:I'm curious, do you happen to have those measurements of the ss195 bullet?

Added the info to the original Bullet comparison post above :thumb:

ddouglas · Post by **ddouglas** » 20 Jun 2011, 20:33

iFire...how is 'bearing surface' defined and how are you measuring it?

iFire · Post by **iFire** » 20 Jun 2011, 21:56

Alright - I whipped up a few prototype bullets to help explain bearing surface:

Bearing Surface is shown in Black. 'Bearing Surface' could be defined as any part of the bullet that will contact the rifling.

Example (1) looks similar to a T6. It has the least amount of surface that will come into contact with the rifling.

Example (2) has one of the grooves removed. Because of this, it has more surface area that will touch the rifling.

Example (3) has lots of surface that will come into contact with the rifling. It has the most bearing surface of the three.

---

The best way to measure bearing surface is to take a set of calipers and set it to .222 (for a .224 bullet)

Slide the caliper (pre-set at .222) down the bullet from the tip end until it stops. Mark this point. Measure from the back of the bullet (or, if the bullet has a boat tail, from the joint of the boat tail and main body) to the mark you made in the front. This measurement will be the amount of surface that is in contact with the rifling - aka bearing surface. If the bullet has grooves cut in, subtract the groove distance(s) from your measurement, as this area will not touch the rifling...

ddouglas · Post by **ddouglas** » 21 Jun 2011, 05:38

Thanks. So your 'bearing surface' is a length measurement, not an area measurement. Since the bullet contacts the rifling over it's full 'bearing length', wouldn't the area be a better estimate of friction-related things? And since--using a Vmax, for example--it appears that the radius of the bullet is continually changing over the length, the "depth" of the engagement with the rifling (and thus the amount of friction) changes, doesn't that have an effect also?

VeTTeMaNC486 · Post by **VeTTeMaNC486** » 21 Jun 2011, 05:44

His measurement is just an approximation, hence the ~ infront of the measurement. It is just to give us a reference to compare different bullets. I guess you could be all scientific about it, but there isn't really much of a point, considering the data is just being used to compare different bullets.

iFire · Post by **iFire** » 21 Jun 2011, 06:24

ddouglas wrote:Thanks. So your 'bearing surface' is a length measurement, not an area measurement. Since the bullet contacts the rifling over it's full 'bearing length', wouldn't the area be a better estimate of friction-related things?

Well, technically since the Bearing Surface length measurement is for equal bullets of .224 diameter, then the length measurement is in direct proportion to the surface area in contact with the rifling...

ddouglas wrote:And since--using a Vmax, for example--it appears that the radius of the bullet is continually changing over the length, the "depth" of the engagement with the rifling (and thus the amount of friction) changes, doesn't that have an effect also?

I see what your saying about the radius/diameter changing - but in reality there is only a certain diameter of the bullet that will contact the rifling - the exact amount depends on the gun and the depth of the rifling. Often times in a .224 gun the grooves will run approx - .0025" I believe. That means that any portion of the bullet greater than .219" in diameter will touch the rifling - anything smaller than .219" will not touch the rifling. So, that means that any part of the bullet greater than .219" is consider the Bearing Surface of the bullet.

Also the material and hardness of the bullet play a role in friction too - the cuts seen in bullets like EA's T6 and Barnes 45gr BS not only relieve pressure by elimination bearing surface, but they also provide a place for the metal of the bullet to 'flow into' as it is being compressed by the barrel's rifling - further eliminating friction that would have been in the form of compressed resistance.

No need to get too complicated though :laugh: The whole reason behind the bearing surface topic is generally to get an idea of what to expect in terms of comparisson between different bullets.

iFire · Post by **iFire** » 21 Jun 2011, 09:10

A few more random prototype designs - now if I could only get to actually making some of these... That would be fun

VeTTeMaNC486 · Post by **VeTTeMaNC486** » 21 Jun 2011, 09:20

iFire wrote:A few more random prototype designs - now if I could only get to actually making some of these... That would be fun

Projected weights? I'm assuming <40grs?

They look alot like EA's tridents, wouldn't it be easier to just purchase some for loading?

iFire · Post by **iFire** » 21 Jun 2011, 09:37

VeTTeMaNC486 wrote:
They look alot like EA's tridents, wouldn't it be easier to just purchase some for loading?

It would be fun to make them on a mini-lathe hooked into the computer or something like that for experimenting. And yes it would be way easier to get some similar bullets from EA or Barnes... I just thought it would be fun to make some as well one day for a winter time project or something like that...

The top ones look like EA trident's and the bottom look like the Barnes BS's - It would be tough to radically deviate from either of the two designs - obviuosly there is only so much that can be done. It would just be neat to fire up a lathe and turn out some bullets for testing. Load them up and see how they perform. Then wash, rinse and repeat

Maybe even make some turned wadcutters... Who knows :p

Post by **Grantness** » 21 Jun 2011, 10:25

Be fun to experiment with different metal too... (so long as they are legal).

Post by **panzermk2** » 21 Jun 2011, 13:02

You do realize we have made all of those?

iFire · Post by **iFire** » 21 Jun 2011, 14:37

panzermk2 wrote:You do realize we have made all of those?

Well, I knew you made the 28gr for the T6... So yeah, I knew you made one like the top illustration - but I didnt know that you had so many different weights: 28, 30, 32, 36?

I had done some prototype bullets in illustrator a long time ago so i thought I would clean them up and post it just for fun...

Anyway I assume the 28 gr was the best and thats why you went with it?

Grantness wrote:Be fun to experiment with different metal too... (so long as they are legal).

Yeah it would be fun to play with different metals too (if their indeed Legit) - It would be a fun project for sure :thumb:

Post by **panzermk2** » 21 Jun 2011, 17:10

The 28 was the best, but we sell the others if you want to hand load them.

http://www.eliteammunition.net/catalog/ ... 334526.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.eliteammunition.net/catalog/ ... 830857.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Others are out of stock

Post by **Grantness** » 21 Jun 2011, 18:19

I always thought a 40gr PFP would be perfect...

iFire · Post by **iFire** » 23 Jun 2011, 09:23

35gr NTX's just came in. They look great

Profile looks just like a 40 Vmax

I will get measurements later with calipers, not near any of that right now...

Post by **Grantness** » 23 Jun 2011, 09:43

cool. I bet you'll get similar results to other 35gr LF bullets. Any word on acquiring 40gr LF bullets?

iFire · Post by **iFire** » 23 Jun 2011, 09:46

Grantness wrote:cool. I bet you'll get similar results to other 35gr LF bullets. Any word on acquiring 40gr LF bullets?

I think it will be a lot better - less bearing surface on these NTX's compared to the Nosler - but we will see. I will test this weekend maybe...

Here they are -

iFire · Post by **iFire** » 23 Jun 2011, 11:16

Added 35 gr NTX measurements to my earlier post...

Post by **Grantness** » 23 Jun 2011, 12:45

Those are perdy

Speaking of perdy, I saw a perdy Perdy, Damascus Double Barreled Shotty today. They said it was worth 12-14k

eVenom · Post by **eVenom** » 23 Jun 2011, 16:42

SWEET! now we need to see how they perform!!!

iFire · Post by **iFire** » 23 Jun 2011, 17:34

eVenom wrote:SWEET! now we need to see how they perform!!!

:thumb:

VeTTeMaNC486 · Post by **VeTTeMaNC486** » 24 Jun 2011, 12:33

Went in a sportsmans warehouse or something like that today and they had some of the 35gr NTX so I picked up a box. They also had a box of the nosler 40gr LFBT, I grabbed a box of them too. I will try to get the measurements posted at some point in the next couple days if anyone is interested. The bullets are flat base not boat tail like the vmax fyi.
On another note, went in a gunshop that had a brand new FsN adjustable sight model for $936 +tax. I almost bought it, almost

.

Post by **Grantness** » 24 Jun 2011, 12:56

Awesome. LOVE to get some data on those 40gr LFBT's if you've got a chrono... Preferably a known 40gr vmax/ballitstic tip load or work up to a max load to see how it compares or see what it can really do.

VeTTeMaNC486 · Post by **VeTTeMaNC486** » 24 Jun 2011, 13:37

Grantness wrote:Awesome. LOVE to get some data on those 40gr LFBT's if you've got a chrono... Preferably a known 40gr vmax/ballitstic tip load or work up to a max load to see how it compares or see what it can really do.

I do. I don't have too many appropriate 5.7 powders, I guess I can use blue dot and accurate #7. I got some vmaxs to I could load and do side by side with them, I am going to be very busy with school this week and I'm going outta town next weekend. Ill try to squeeze in some time though before I leave.

Post by **Grantness** » 24 Jun 2011, 14:07

Those are a couple of the best powders there are! Blue Dot would be great b/c there seems to be questions about old vs. new Acc#7. I usually like to use about 6.7-6.8gr (not quite a max load) for my 40gr Nosler Ballistic Tips. Might try 6.5 and work up if you get a chance...

VeTTeMaNC486 · Post by **VeTTeMaNC486** » 24 Jun 2011, 15:07

The data will be out of a weighted bolt ps90. But ill do a vmax load along with them. I don't have a way to bell the mouth, I guess I can just chamfer it a lot?

Post by **Grantness** » 24 Jun 2011, 15:38

may not be required... twist and push. Hopefully you can use of iFire's PS90 loads to compare it to. Do you have regular 40gr Vmax's or BTs? Then we could still see which performs better weighted bolt aside...

iFire · Post by **iFire** » 24 Jun 2011, 19:51

VeTTeMaNC486 wrote:The data will be out of a weighted bolt ps90. But ill do a vmax load along with them. I don't have a way to bell the mouth, I guess I can just chamfer it a lot?

Don't bell it, just give it a little extra chamfer than normal... They are a little more of a pain to load, but not that bad...

VeTTeMaNC486 wrote:
Grantness wrote:Awesome. LOVE to get some data on those 40gr LFBT's if you've got a chrono... Preferably a known 40gr vmax/ballitstic tip load or work up to a max load to see how it compares or see what it can really do.
I do. I don't have too many appropriate 5.7 powders, I guess I can use blue dot and accurate #7. I got some vmaxs to I could load and do side by side with them, I am going to be very busy with school this week and I'm going outta town next weekend. Ill try to squeeze in some time though before I leave.

I don't think the 40gr Nolser lead free will be that good, but we will see. The 35gr Nosler LF has a lot of bearing surface and I couldnt push it nearly as hard as the 40gr Vmax.

I think the 35gr NTX will be an excellent bullet, but I dont think it will quite match the 40gr Vmax in terms of Kinetic Energy. However, It still might prove to be possibly the second best commercial bullet choice out there next to the 40 Vmax in Kinetic Energy Potential. Also, since it is a little lighter, trajectory may be a little flatter. We will see - time will tell

VeTTeMaNC486 - Get some AutoComp - The stuff is flat out impressive in the PS90 - It is the best powder I have used in terms of reliability and consistency - and you can great speed without the fear of mag pops or jams, etc...

I just picked up my second PS90 - :guns: (theres no smilie with two carbines, so this will have to do...)

VeTTeMaNC486 · Post by **VeTTeMaNC486** » 24 Jun 2011, 20:51

K, just got back home.

The Nosler LF 40gr has ~ .300" of bearing surface the best I can tell. It is .784" +- .001" ( each varyed slightly, which is to be expected).

I'm too tired and its too late to take pictures right now.

I do not have extremely high hopes for the bullet to be honest but we will see.

iFire · Post by **iFire** » 24 Jun 2011, 21:45

VeTTeMaNC486 wrote:K, just got back home.

The Nosler LF 40gr has ~ .300" of bearing surface the best I can tell. It is .784" +- .001" ( each varyed slightly, which is to be expected).

The 35gr and 40gr Nosler Lead Free Bullets have the same bearing surface length i believe... its just their Ogive that varies in length and shape... I had measured ~ .320" - however .300" is really close to my measurement. Its somewhere around those two measurements..

The 35 NTX's bearing surface is only .225" long - thats a significant difference - nearly .100" - or approx 1/3 less friction...

VeTTeMaNC486 wrote:I do not have extremely high hopes for the bullet to be honest but we will see.

I think it will be a good bullet. But it wont achieve the same Kinetic Energy Potential...

I was able to pull around 525 ft lbs from the 35 gr nosler and around 550 ft lbs from the 40 gr Vmax in terms of POTENTIAL before the brass or primer gave way...

However - Absolute Potential and Functional Potential are two very different things.

In reality, if the bullet wont reliably feed 100% of the time, or if the mag pops up, etc.. the load is basically useless. Therefore, the Best load is one that has high kinetic energy and also functions 100% of the time without some type of failure. Since the PS90 is much more sensitive than the FsN, finding a load that balances function with Kinetic Energy is the ultimate goal.

The FsN is a lot less fussy. In the FsN, you can usually get the round with the highest possible Kinetic Energy to function reliably - but that is just not the case with the PS90...

VeTTeMaNC486 · Post by **VeTTeMaNC486** » 25 Jun 2011, 05:13

Grantness wrote:may not be required... twist and push. Hopefully you can use of iFire's PS90 loads to compare it to. Do you have regular 40gr Vmax's or BTs? Then we could still see which performs better weighted bolt aside...

Ea pulled (boat tail) they may not be the prettiest but dang are they cheap

VeTTeMaNC486 · Post by **VeTTeMaNC486** » 25 Jun 2011, 05:17

iFire wrote:
VeTTeMaNC486 wrote:K, just got back home.

The Nosler LF 40gr has ~ .300" of bearing surface the best I can tell. It is .784" +- .001" ( each varyed slightly, which is to be expected).
The 35gr and 40gr Nosler Lead Free Bullets have the same bearing surface length i believe... its just their Ogive that varies in length and shape... I had measured ~ .320" - however .300" is really close to my measurement. Its somewhere around those two measurements..

The 35 NTX's bearing surface is only .225" long - thats a significant difference - nearly .100" - or approx 1/3 less friction...

VeTTeMaNC486 wrote:I do not have extremely high hopes for the bullet to be honest but we will see.
I think it will be a good bullet. But it wont achieve the same Kinetic Energy Potential...

I was able to pull around 525 ft lbs from the 35 gr nosler and around 550 ft lbs from the 40 gr Vmax in terms of POTENTIAL before the brass or primer gave way...

However - Absolute Potential and Functional Potential are two very different things.

In reality, if the bullet wont reliably feed 100% of the time, or if the mag pops up, etc.. the load is basically useless. Therefore, the Best load is one that has high kinetic energy and also functions 100% of the time without some type of failure. Since the PS90 is much more sensitive than the FsN, finding a load that balances function with Kinetic Energy is the ultimate goal.

The FsN is a lot less fussy. In the FsN, you can usually get the round with the highest possible Kinetic Energy to function reliably - but that is just not the case with the PS90...

Your probably right. Every time I tryed measuring it I got a little different answer.
Your recommendation about autocomp, have you had any troubles with hs6?

iFire · Post by **iFire** » 25 Jun 2011, 05:58

VeTTeMaNC486 wrote:
Your probably right. Every time I tryed measuring it I got a little different answer.
Your recommendation about autocomp, have you had any troubles with hs6?

HS6 is excellent in the PS90 too, and has an excellent case fill percentage - my SD numbers were just a little bit higher than w/ AutoComp.

HS6, AutoComp and Longshot are among powders that I trust to get at least 2300 fps with a 40gr Vmax without some type of problem...

AA#7 and True Blue can get 2300+ for instance, but up over 2300 and I have seen mag pops and jams, etc...

Post by **Grantness** » 25 Jun 2011, 09:21

Overall, HS7 is STILL the best I know of thats in this country. Im gonna keep working on my contact at Alliant and see if maybe just maybe they could fill that gap left by HS7's removal from the market. Every load in every manual I say always beat out HS6. Autocomp is better than HS6 for sure.

iFire · Post by **iFire** » 25 Jun 2011, 12:01

Grantness wrote:Overall, HS7 is STILL the best I know of thats in this country. Im gonna keep working on my contact at Alliant and see if maybe just maybe they could fill that gap left by HS7's removal from the market. Every load in every manual I say always beat out HS6. Autocomp is better than HS6 for sure.

I havent tried HS7 in the PS90 - the problem is that the PS90 is soo picky - so I'm not sure if it will like it or not...

iFire · Post by **iFire** » 26 Jun 2011, 20:37

Here are some pics:

Just picked up a case prep assisstant...

Close up -

Comparison of various .224 bullets I have used in the 5.7

Hornady NTX loaded round -

The 35 NTX has nearly the same Ogive as the 40 Vmax - A die set for an OAL of 1.575" with a 40gr Vmax seated the 35 NTX at 1.584" - so Ogive is fairly close...

Post by **Grantness** » 26 Jun 2011, 21:18

Those case prep machines look nice, but they are SO expensive. That's why I went w/ the Trimpro, EA Trim Plate, and the cutting head w/ built in chamfer/deburrer (one step and ure done). Rigged an electric drill to run the trimmer. Although...since I didn't exactly know what I was doing at the time, I prob spent almost as much on my sliding electric drill rig as the RCBS electric trimming attachment :laugh:

iFire · Post by **iFire** » 26 Jun 2011, 21:34

Grantness wrote:Those case prep machines look nice, but they are SO expensive. That's why I went w/ the Trimpro, EA Trim Plate, and the cutting head w/ built in chamfer/deburrer (one step and ure done). Rigged an electric drill to run the trimmer. Although...since I didn't exactly know what I was doing at the time, I prob spent almost as much on my sliding electric drill rig as the RCBS electric trimming attachment :laugh:

I got the case prep for a really good price - I have a dealer who treats me well

I wanted the case prep because i get sick of charging the battery on my drill (I was just chucking in my attachments). It seems I am always running batches so hopefully it turns out to be a good tool to have!

Plus, I use an X Die for the 5.56 cases so I dont need to trim, just chamfer... So this should be a good choice I hope!

iFire · Post by **iFire** » 27 Jun 2011, 17:34

VeTTeMaNC486 -

HS6 seems to be an excellent powder to light the 35gr NTX in the PS90 - It did better than Longshot and AutoComp from a potential Kinetic Energy Standpoint in my initial tests. Of course there are other things to look for like reliability in all temperatures, consistently low SD's and Accuracy...

HS6 also pushed the 35gr NTX out of the FsN better than AutoComp and Longshot too.

Overall I like the bullet so far. You cant reach the same KE potential of the 40gr Vmax, but it does come pretty close. The 35 does shoot a little faster and would give a very flat trajectory, so that is a bonus to be considered.

Alright, back to the load bench for another test run :thumb:

VeTTeMaNC486 · Post by **VeTTeMaNC486** » 27 Jun 2011, 21:03

Awesome. :thumb:

I was hoping you would be able to get them coming out a little faster. Seems like the 40gr vmax is pretty tough to beat. Soon, I plan on loading up some high power loads with them and hs6 and testing them for accuracy and reliability. I like how the numbers look with hs6 under the vmax.

I am going to go to the range in the morning to sight in my .45-70, when I get back I will try to load up some nosler 40gr over some blue dot (and possibly Accurate #7, depends if I have enough time) and try to shoot them over the chrono before school tomorrow evening.

VeTTeMaNC486 · Post by **VeTTeMaNC486** » 28 Jun 2011, 10:59

Looks like were going to have to wait on the 40gr nosler lf results, had a self induced chronograph error. I believe that is the politically correct term for it. Crap. Oh well, this one lasted WAYYYYY longer than the last. One conclusion can be made; whitebox ss195 has NOTHING on the damage that a 40gr nosler does to a hard target.

I am going to start hanging a target up behind the chrony. That should help.

I did shoot all the way up to 6.8grs of blue dot behind the nosler and had no problems, however I am going to remove my lead tape, the action feels funny cycling with it. I will just wait for EA's bolt weight I guess before I mess with max power loads much.

iFire · Post by **iFire** » 29 Jun 2011, 05:47

VeTTeMaNC486 wrote:'had a self induced chronograph error. I believe that is the politically correct term for it.'

How are you suppose to help with data when you have 'self induced chronograph errors?' :p

Some more of my data - I will put in in my load threads later too...

PS90 - 35 gr. NTX

Dillon Progressive w/ AutoComp @ approx ~ 5.65grs | N=10 | CCI 400 | SS195 Brass

Avg - 2400 fps
SD - 9 fps

Dillon Progressive w/ HS6 @ ~ 6.55grs | N=10 | CCI 400 | SS195 Brass

Avg - 2429
SD - 21 fps

AutoComp has proven itself time and time again as being the most consistent powder in the PS90 with very low SD's.

HS6 works really well, and can achieve some of the highest speeds without mag pop ups or jams... However, recoil is 'stronger' than with most loads, likely due to the burn rate and corresponding speed/recoil associated with this powder type...
----

FsN - 35 gr. NTX

HS6 | N=6 | CCI 400 | SS195 Brass

Avg - 2033
SD - 20 fps

Good function...

VeTTeMaNC486 · Post by **VeTTeMaNC486** » 29 Jun 2011, 06:07

iFire wrote:
VeTTeMaNC486 wrote:'had a self induced chronograph error. I believe that is the politically correct term for it.'
How are you suppose to help with data when you have 'self induced chronograph errors?' :p

Some more of my data - I will put in in my load threads later too...

PS90 - 35 gr. NTX

AutoComp | N=10 | CCI 400 | SS195 Brass

Avg - 2400 fps
SD - 9 fps

HS6 | N=10 | CCI 400 | SS195 Brass

Avg - 2429
SD - 21 fps

AutoComp has proven itself time and time again as being the most consistent powder in the PS90 with very low SD's.

HS6 works really well, and can achieve some of the highest speeds without mag pop ups or jams... However, recoil is 'stronger' than with most loads, likely due to the burn rate and corresponding speed/recoil associated with this powder type...
----

FsN - 35 gr. NTX

HS6 | N=6 | CCI 400 | SS195 Brass

Avg - 2033
SD - 20 fps

Good function...

This is the second one this ps90 has caused to malfunction. I will get a replacement when I get back from vaction next week. From now on I will be putting a target or something up behind it lol.

ehryk · Post by **ehryk** » 30 Jun 2011, 05:23

remember, you don't need to touch the sensor with the bullet. Ya know those sky screens? I bet it sees the bullets way up there :p :lmao:

VeTTeMaNC486 · Post by **VeTTeMaNC486** » 30 Jun 2011, 08:37

ehryk wrote:remember, you don't need to touch the sensor with the bullet. Ya know those sky screens? I bet it sees the bullets way up there :p :lmao:

:facepalm:

I'll post a pic next week when I get back from vacation. Made a huge mess of it. I'm thinking about upgrading to a better one, but at the rate im going I may as well invest in multiple cheapys :laugh:

Post by **panzermk2** » 30 Jun 2011, 11:30

Remember the reactions by so many people when I stated the Chrono gets it all the time and we shoot ours fairly regularly. Everyone, most with out a chrono, stated how hard it would be to hit it and how could I who shoots so much hit one.

Well now you know how easy it is don't you?

iFire · Post by **iFire** » 30 Jun 2011, 12:10

ehryk wrote:Ya know those sky screens? I bet it sees the bullets way up there :p :lmao:

I put the dot of my delta point on my PS90 about a half inch under the skyscreens - that puts the bullet about dead center. Ive never shot a chrony :p

Post by **panzermk2** » 30 Jun 2011, 12:37

iFire wrote:Ive never shot a chrony :p

YET

Post by **Grantness** » 30 Jun 2011, 16:26

every heard of parallax? That's why chrono's aren't safe w/ many carbines/rifles....hehe

VeTTeMaNC486 · Post by **VeTTeMaNC486** » 30 Jun 2011, 16:33

panzermk2 wrote:Remember the reactions by so many people when I stated the Chrono gets it all the time and we shoot ours fairly regularly. Everyone, most with out a chrono, stated how hard it would be to hit it and how could I who shoots so much hit one.

Well now you know how easy it is don't you?

This is the second chrono that this rifle has claimed :laugh:

Aiming at the skyscreens with the ps90 is a pretty excellent idea.

iFire · Post by **iFire** » 30 Jun 2011, 17:19

VeTTeMaNC486 wrote:Aiming at the skyscreens with the ps90 is a pretty excellent idea.

Yup

Wollychop · Post by **Wollychop** » 30 Jun 2011, 17:32

Grantness wrote:every heard of parallax? That's why chrono's aren't safe w/ many carbines/rifles....hehe

I just have my wife stand on the opposite side and ensure the muzzle is properly aligned for the shot, then she ducks.

Just kidding.

eVenom · Post by **eVenom** » 30 Jun 2011, 19:43

Has anybody tried to make blanks? I know FN makes them but I was wondering if anybody even tried to make one on their own

iFire · Post by **iFire** » 30 Jun 2011, 19:56

Wollychop wrote:
Grantness wrote:every heard of parallax? That's why chrono's aren't safe w/ many carbines/rifles....hehe
I just have my wife stand on the opposite side and ensure the muzzle is properly aligned for the shot, then she ducks.

Just kidding.

:laugh:

Post by **panzermk2** » 30 Jun 2011, 20:43

eVenom wrote:Has anybody tried to make blanks? I know FN makes them but I was wondering if anybody even tried to make one on their own

You would need an adapter. Also although there would be no bullet involved there would be more labor so the blanks would cost almost as much as loaded ammo. I have looked into it.

Post by **Grantness** » 30 Jun 2011, 22:06

u can use wax or something similar... i heard u dont need any kind of permit to manufacture and sell them though...

iFire · Post by **iFire** » 01 Jul 2011, 18:45

Blanks would be a fun project to try... Although I dont think I would put it on my to do list ahead of making real rounds. Sending bullets out the barrel just seems like more fun than sending hot air :laugh:

Post by **Grantness** » 01 Jul 2011, 21:57

yep....ive just been in a funk cause i can't seem to beat any of the loads i've got!

iFire · Post by **iFire** » 02 Jul 2011, 05:47

Grantness wrote:yep....ive just been in a funk cause i can't seem to beat any of the loads i've got!

If you get an AR57 or PS90 that will completely change :laugh: - If you got the AR57 you would have to literally completely re-test everything to see what works well in your system with your particular buffer, etc... If you got a 90 then you would still have enough testing to do - just not as much, since I have done a lot with the 90 already

Post by **Esteves** » 02 Jul 2011, 06:53

iFire wrote:Blanks would be a fun project to try... Although I dont think I would put it on my to do list ahead of making real rounds. Sending bullets out the barrel just seems like more fun than sending hot air :laugh:

How about snake-shot?...

The 5.7x28 has some challenges here. Unlike 22LR or 22WMR that can/do fill as much of their straight-walled cases with as much shot as possible by using a wad far back in the case, the 5.7's bottleneck design calls for a different approach.

PainKillaX · Post by **PainKillaX** » 02 Jul 2011, 09:32

Esteves wrote:
iFire wrote:Blanks would be a fun project to try... Although I dont think I would put it on my to do list ahead of making real rounds. Sending bullets out the barrel just seems like more fun than sending hot air :laugh:
How about snake-shot?...

The 5.7x28 has some challenges here. Unlike 22LR or 22WMR that can/do fill as much of their straight-walled cases with as much shot as possible by using a wad far back in the case, the 5.7's bottleneck design calls for a different approach.

Could you make a .224 diameter paper cup type thingy filled with shot and set it in there?

iFire · Post by **iFire** » 02 Jul 2011, 09:36

PainKillaX wrote:
Esteves wrote:
iFire wrote:Blanks would be a fun project to try... Although I dont think I would put it on my to do list ahead of making real rounds. Sending bullets out the barrel just seems like more fun than sending hot air :laugh:
How about snake-shot?...

The 5.7x28 has some challenges here. Unlike 22LR or 22WMR that can/do fill as much of their straight-walled cases with as much shot as possible by using a wad far back in the case, the 5.7's bottleneck design calls for a different approach.
Could you make a .224 diameter paper cup type thingy filled with shot and set it in there?

Interesting thoughts... It would be fun to try, but a lot of work I would imagine, although I do have a few ideas :ponder:

iFire · Post by **iFire** » 02 Jul 2011, 09:37

Some 35gr NTX loads...

eVenom · Post by **eVenom** » 02 Jul 2011, 18:24

they look awsome!!

I have a question about NTX... you said that the energy of these is not as much as the 40g but when I look at your data it seems to b the other way around.

iFire · Post by **iFire** » 02 Jul 2011, 19:41

eVenom wrote:they look awsome!!

I have a question about NTX... you said that the energy of these is not as much as the 40g but when I look at your data it seems to b the other way around.

Thanks - they turned out pretty nice

About the energy - the 40g loads definitely have more energy potential, no doubt about it. Look at the 35gr NTX load with HS6 for instance and compare it to the 40gr Vmax with HS6 - I believe the most I could get out of the 35gr was approx 500 ft lbs while I was able to get approx 550+ ft lbs out of the 40gr.

Overall the 35gr is an excellent bullet and an excellent choice - I will be using them quite a bit...

The best load in the PS90 is 5.5grs of AutoComp with the 35gr NTX - amazingly consistent, plenty of energy without pushing any limits, and the smoothest recoil I have ever felt. If you play around shooting different powders you start to appreciate which ones 'feel' good and which ones don't...

iFire · Post by **iFire** » 02 Jul 2011, 21:11

Had some time to finally get some pics and a vid thrown together. Here are some of them - a few have already been posted elsewhere...

My new '5.7 dedicated' workbench upstairs - All other equipment and presses stay on the workbench in the basement...

A test batch of rounds ready for chronographing

Resized and sonic cleaned in Mean Green

A good size run of 40gr Vmax's

Another run of 34gr VNE's

A Demo of the Dillon loading 35gr NTX 5.7 rounds

Post by **panzermk2** » 02 Jul 2011, 21:15

Nice set up!

Post by **Grantness** » 03 Jul 2011, 00:31

:drool:

eVenom · Post by **eVenom** » 03 Jul 2011, 06:52

:clap: Some day!!! :thumb:

shooter · Post by **shooter** » 03 Jul 2011, 09:59

Nice! Way too neat and well organized...... :thumb:

iFire · Post by **iFire** » 04 Jul 2011, 13:57

Thanks guys

I have a cluttered reloading bench in the basement full of everything... So I decided to get a new secondary workbench to be used exclusively for 'finish work reloading' that would stay neat and clean and not get full of junk like normal workbenches do so quickly... I may have to post a few more pics when I can take them of the whole bench and its features and modifications...

ehryk · Post by **ehryk** » 05 Jul 2011, 17:27

regarding those NTX bullets, how is their terminal performance in gel? IIRC it has a compressed powder core, so I would think it would basicly behave like a Varment Grenade, eh?

What I wouldn't give for a 30 grain TSX hehehehehe

Who is online