Chronograph results Edit:Important Brass Information

Discuss 5.7x28mm factory ammunition
Tripletap
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Chronograph results Edit:Important Brass Information

Post by Tripletap » 22 Jul 2010, 18:29

I broke in my new chronograph today by shooting samples of various 5.7x28mm commercial rounds. Here are my results with my PS90TR and my new FN USG pistol. It was a hot sunny day, 92 degrees in the shade. All rounds functioned 100% in both weapons. I just thought I would share.

I started with SS197SR Lot#0325069050

====PS90====USG Pistol
#1==2109====1731
#2==2107====1730
#3==2088====1752
#4==2057====1717
#5==2060====1705
#6==2045====1707
#7==2034====1709
#8==2030====1729
#9==2048====1715
#10=2030====1728

Next strings were with SS195LF(Blue Box) Lot# FNB09L910-006

====PS90====USG Pistol
#1==2331====2033
#2==2414====1985
#3==2465====2008
#4==2435====1987
#5==2435(no typo)2085
#6==2445====2030
#7==2437====2003
#8==2417====2025
#9==2414====2042
#10=2432====1983

Next round was S4 Ultra Raptor Lot# 57-S4RH06222009

====PS90====USG Pistol
#1==2755====2300
#2==2840====2286
#3==2804====2273
#4==2824====2246
#5==2820====2260
#6==2829====2251
#7==2812====2277
#8==2823====2269
#9==2837====2242
#10=2832====2247

Now it got expensive ;-)
32gr PFP Trident S5 Lot# 57-S5VD06122010

====PS90====USG Pistol
#1==2493====2071
#2==2582====2074
#3==2548====2052
#4==2574====2045
#5==2558====2073
#6==2557====2027
#7==2571====2042
#8==2544====(I only brought one 20 round box to the range)
#9==2541====(My brother and his kids wanted one each because it looks cool)
#10=2593====(Sorry short three rounds :-))

Next up is the Protector Lot#57-PRORH06012009

====PS90====USG Pistol
#1==2374====1934
#2==2400====1902
#3==2394====1924
#4==2376====1903
#5==2377====1920
#6==2392====1909
#7==2368====1880
#8==2376====1925
#9==2434====1884
#10=2385====1927

It was getting late so the SS192, SS196, SS195LF(White Box), Illuminators, Varmintors, and X-Terminators will have to wait for another trip.

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Re: Chronograph results

Post by Grantness » 22 Jul 2010, 19:09

Thanks for sharing :thumb:

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Re: Chronograph results

Post by Buffman » 22 Jul 2010, 20:19

IS it typical that S4 UR goes that slow? Or perhaps is it because of two initials I see in the lot #

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Re: Chronograph results

Post by panzermk2 » 23 Jul 2010, 00:00

For 92 degrees everything should have been hotter. Initials not with standing did you save the brass? I suspect the primers were starting to let go if is was that hot and you lost some velocity.

How fare from the screens?
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Re: Chronograph results

Post by sabotteur » 23 Jul 2010, 05:31

Were the rounds conditioned at temperature? Meaning were they soaked in that heat, or did you pull them out of an airconditioned car?

Even at 92 degrees, there shouldn't be that much of a change in the energetic properties.

We don't really start seeing velocity differences on our 40mm grenades until we cross over into the 120+ degree mark. Of course we also use single and double based propellents on a much larger scale.

Is there that much of a noticable difference on temperature ranges from the factory propellent in the 5.7?

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Re: Chronograph results

Post by Tripletap » 23 Jul 2010, 06:26

Hey guys, the chrono was about eight feet away. Is that too far for the 5.7? I never used one before and the instructions said don't let the muzzle blast hit it or you will get false results. All rounds were outside temp under the shooting range roof in a closed ammo can for about five hours before I had time to try out the chrony. I didn't keep the brass or inspect it too close, because every round all day functioned just fine. The PS90 was very popular with all the kids and they had fired about 18 mags of ammo over two hours, so it was still pretty warm when I did the chrono shots. Would being in a hot chamber for about 30 secs have much of an effect on velocity?

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Re: Chronograph results

Post by sabotteur » 23 Jul 2010, 06:41

Thanks for the update. Being in a hot chamber for 30 seconds won't have an impact, as there just isn't enough time to transfer the heat from the metal in the chamber, through the brass cartridge case and then equally into the powder.

When we condition ammo for testing, we usually soak it for a minimum of 24 hours if not longer.

Even when we condition things hot, we usually only see maybe an additional 3-7 meter per second increase, so figure 9 to 21 fps increase. It isn't much, but it is enough to fail a lot inspection test if the propellent is too dry or has other inconsistencies.

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Re: Chronograph results

Post by Tripletap » 23 Jul 2010, 06:47

I'm just glad we went shooting yesterday, today it's going to get up to 96 degrees! Pensacola FL , America's sauna! :D I can't wait till the fall weather starts.

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Re: Chronograph results

Post by panzermk2 » 23 Jul 2010, 08:42

sabotteur wrote:Thanks for the update. Being in a hot chamber for 30 seconds won't have an impact, as there just isn't enough time to transfer the heat from the metal in the chamber, through the brass cartridge case and then equally into the powder.

When we condition ammo for testing, we usually soak it for a minimum of 24 hours if not longer.

Even when we condition things hot, we usually only see maybe an additional 3-7 meter per second increase, so figure 9 to 21 fps increase. It isn't much, but it is enough to fail a lot inspection test if the propellant is too dry or has other inconsistencies.

Because of the high pressure the 5.7 operates at you will see it affected by temp allot more. Also due to it's long thin diameter it will heat up pretty fast in the chamber. The 8 feet to avoid muzzle blast flipping your chrony out costs about 20 to 25 fps.

The high temp though will cause pressure to spike about a millisecond to soon. This causes the primer to start flowing and the neck to stretch to SOON, yes we are talking milliseconds here, and the brass does not grip the inside of the chamber and it starts stretching to soon also. Blow back operation causes this phenomenon. You can see a gold wring on the inside of the case just below the shoulder when this is happening.

This stretching will cost you up to 500FPS sometimes more. It is very consistent and hard to catch unless you know what your looking at and what to expect.

This is how guys blow their hands off. You start your test loads and when you hit this Plateau you think WOW the FPS has stopped increasing. Half the folkes will stop there, the other think heck I can load it hotter.

Then they blow their gun up.
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Re: Chronograph results

Post by sabotteur » 23 Jul 2010, 08:50

Interesting....

Thanks for the education Jay.....all my 'technical' experience is with the much larger calibers....

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Re: Chronograph results

Post by panzermk2 » 23 Jul 2010, 08:57

sabotteur wrote:Interesting....

Thanks for the education Jay.....all my 'technical' experience is with the much larger calibers....

Sometimes I don't like to share some info because of all the risk, time and cost invested during testing and development to find it out. Somethings a pressure barrel won't tell you and the only way to find out is shoot it in a FsN.

This is why Lil Gun everyone was all hot all over never worked out. On paper or in QL it looks great but in the real world sucks for the 5.7. Folkes found this out when the loads weren't working right even at lower loads.

This tidbit I have sat on for along time and have only shared with the Trident Beta bullet team.
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Re: Chronograph results

Post by blueorison » 23 Jul 2010, 11:54

Thanks for the info, Jay.

Just wondering, the first shot out of the FsN with the normal temperature chamber should be around 2600 with the UltrarapTOR, then, is that correct?
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Re: Chronograph results

Post by panzermk2 » 23 Jul 2010, 12:15

Yes it should have been unless the ambient temp of the cartridge was near or above 95 degrees.
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Re: Chronograph results

Post by kkahn » 24 Jul 2010, 01:28

Yes it should have been unless the ambient temp of the cartridge was near or above 95 degrees.
That is nice to know!?!?!

So this time of year here in Phoenix, S4 Ultra wimps out after 7AM. Damn.....

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Re: Chronograph results

Post by Tripletap » 24 Jul 2010, 07:18

kkahn wrote:
Yes it should have been unless the ambient temp of the cartridge was near or above 95 degrees.
That is nice to know!?!?!

So this time of year here in Phoenix, S4 Ultra wimps out after 7AM. Damn.....

KKAHN
Generally speaking, wouldn't every caliber have lower velocity in summer heat? I can't carry at work(hospital) and lock my Glock 23 up in a little steel box cabled to the car seat. When I leave work some days the internal car temp has got to be 120+. Wouldn't the 40 cal slow down just like the 5.7?

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Re: Chronograph results

Post by panzermk2 » 24 Jul 2010, 14:15

Tripletap wrote:
kkahn wrote:
Yes it should have been unless the ambient temp of the cartridge was near or above 95 degrees.
That is nice to know!?!?!

So this time of year here in Phoenix, S4 Ultra wimps out after 7AM. Damn.....

KKAHN
Generally speaking, wouldn't every caliber have lower velocity in summer heat? I can't carry at work(hospital) and lock my Glock 23 up in a little steel box cabled to the car seat. When I leave work some days the internal car temp has got to be 120+. Wouldn't the 40 cal slow down just like the 5.7?
No it would not.

In fact what you get is higher pressure and higher velocity with normal cartridges.

The X-factor here is the blow back operation. When you start to hit max pressure on the 5.7x28 the case starts expanding at to great of a rate.This is why when guys load 1x brass hot you get neck separations. The case can't stretch enough to stay intact.

The 5.7x28 case has an internal taper at the base. This internal taper supports and keeps this section of the case from blowing out when it is fired. When you fire the 5.7x28 the case "grows" and 1/4 of it actually leaves the chamber and is suspended in mid air relying on the thicker section of the case to contain the pressure as the bullet travel down the barrel. Keep in mind that the pressure inside the case is evenly applied in all directions. So if the case did not have a taper it would blow out. This is why the internally straight walled 5.7x28 blank cases made by Starline for hollwierd can't be used in the PS90/P90 and FsN pistol.

When you get near the limits of the case at the wrong TIME (very important)it cannot contain this pressure and you get a velocity drop. Think of how when a hydraulic line starts to fail. Instead of the hydraulic force being applied at the end of the line, the line expands and absorbs some of this force.

It come down to WHEN this spike happens. This is why EA can load 5.7x28 to the point of drastically moving the shoulder and yet not blowing out the primer or ripping the neck off and why when some of you who tested Lil'gun, (again on paper should be perfect for the 5.7x28) at lite loads your were getting neck separation and primers blowing out.

This still does not totally explain the lack of fps for the S4. I do know from experience that chronographing 5.7x28 and EA's stuff even more, can be very tricky. I have had to make blast shields to get accurate readings at anything close then 15 feet. You may be measuring muzzle blast and if your chrono was closure then 10 you would be.


Sorry for the long explanation. I don't want to sound like my pontificating blowhard X-partner or being a show off but this is very critical info to understanding the 5.7x28.



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Tripletap
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Re: Chronograph results

Post by Tripletap » 24 Jul 2010, 19:40

Great information Panzer thanks!

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Re: Chronograph results

Post by blueorison » 24 Jul 2010, 21:07

For the forum's benefit,

I chronographed S4 today in a fresh unfired chamber at 10 feet. Result was 2424 fps.

Also chrono'd ss197 at 1702 fps, ss195 at 2014, and S5 at 2113 fps.

All were shot in cold chambers that were allowed to cool for 5 minutes.

Temperature of ambient: 95 degrees Fahrenheit.
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Re: Chronograph results

Post by PainKillaX » 24 Jul 2010, 22:09

Blue, just so we can know EVERY detail here :p , what color box did that 195 come out of?

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Re: Chronograph results

Post by blueorison » 24 Jul 2010, 22:25

Blue.
Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity.
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Stop relying on others to do the work for you.
Shoot more, worry less.

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