Just FYI for 5.7 Handgun Buyers

Nwatson99 · Post by **Nwatson99** » 28 Jan 2009, 10:24

I apologize if this has already been posted.
Folks while purchasing the 5.7 Handgun be advised if you purchase three or more in a 24 hour period you are flagged by the FBI, your information is then sent to the ATF and there is a 95% chance you will be visited by agents and they will expect to see the handguns.
5.7 handguns has the highest smuggle rate into Mexico than any other handgun on the market today.

Post by **f3rr37** » 28 Jan 2009, 10:25

And you obtained this information how? :skep:

Post by **MrSlippyFist** » 28 Jan 2009, 10:31

Hopefully trial and error!

Post by **Cyberfly** » 28 Jan 2009, 10:35

Rumor.
If you buy more than one handgun in a 24 hour period, the dealer has to fill out a special form and submit it to BATFE.
Doesn't matter if it's a FsN or two .22's or...pick your favorite handgun. If you buy two or more in the same 24 hours, the form is sent in.

stg2ahn · Post by **stg2ahn** » 28 Jan 2009, 10:38

I know in VA you can only buy 1 handgun a month, unless you are LE, or have a CCW permit.

I guess it raises some flags, to the agencies involved, if you try to buy more than 1 new gun a month.

tdevince · Post by **tdevince** » 28 Jan 2009, 10:49

If you did buy more than one gun in a day (which I have done), and suppose the ATF or FBI were to pay you a visit, is there any legal obligation on your part (the private citizen, not a FFL holder) to show them any of your guns if they don't have a search warrant?

My inclination would be to tell them to kiss my a$$ and get off my property, unless said search warrant is presented.

stg2ahn · Post by **stg2ahn** » 28 Jan 2009, 10:51

I am not a lawyer, but I think by law, you have to let them see your guns if they ask.

fatherfoof · Post by **fatherfoof** » 28 Jan 2009, 11:02

Glad to live in TX. Last year I bought 2 (not 5.7s) at a dealer who filled in the standard form, went down the street to buy a different model at a better price. Filled out the same form. Same 2 minute wait for the call to NCIC and no problem. This may be revisited, however, since some bad characters bought a couple dozen AR 15s in Houston at one time and they turned up in Mexico. Greed trumps common sense each time and ruins things for all of us who simply obey the law, work, support families, and still believe in the love of America.

romer522 · Post by **romer522** » 28 Jan 2009, 11:03

tdevince wrote:If you did buy more than one gun in a day (which I have done), and suppose the ATF or FBI were to pay you a visit, is there any legal obligation on your part (the private citizen, not a FFL holder) to show them any of your guns if they don't have a search warrant?

My inclination would be to tell them to kiss my a$$ and get off my property, unless said search warrant is presented.

I think your fairly accurate with your assumption. You don't even have to answer the door unless they say they have a warrant. If you choose that route it might be a good idea to have a decent lawyer around, preferably in the house with you

Or at least a video recording of the events.

Even employment law inspectors have to get warrants to come onto private property.

sraynor · Post by **sraynor** » 28 Jan 2009, 11:15

stg2ahn wrote:I am not a lawyer, but I think by law, you have to let them see your guns if they ask.

I believe this only applies to Title II firearms, and to FFL holders (I'm not a lawyer, either, though)

Buffman · Post by **Buffman** » 28 Jan 2009, 11:18

I've been visited by the FBI. They're really nice people.. (NO JOKE, serious)

sraynor · Post by **sraynor** » 28 Jan 2009, 11:33

Quote from ATF publication: (found here - http://www.atf.gov/press/factsheets/060 ... ctions.pdf)

With certain exceptions, the GCA allows ATF to conduct one warrantless, annual compliance inspection of a federal firearms licensee (FFL). The purpose of the inspection program is to educate the licensee about regulatory responsibilities and to evaluate the level of compliance.

sraynor · Post by **sraynor** » 28 Jan 2009, 11:58

Ok, here's what the law says. If you are an FFL holder, the ATF may perform the one annual inspection that I mentioned above. This is defined by US Code title 18 section 923g. This is slightly modified for FFL type 3 holders (curios and relics), because they do not have business hours, so the visit must be scheduled in advance.

Also, the five-day period for multiple handguns as discussed above is defined in this same section (USC 18, sec 923(g)(3)(A))

If you are not a FFL or SOT, but have a Title II firearm, you are only required to produce the registration paperwork for the firearm, and not the firearm itself (USC title 26, section 5841e).

fatherfoof · Post by **fatherfoof** » 28 Jan 2009, 12:24

:laugh: :laugh: Think of the wonderful sermon illustrations I could make out of all these good comments. You guys are an inspiration... :clap:

MGL2 · Post by **MGL2** » 28 Jan 2009, 13:08

Back in the 90's I had gotten so many guns about(3-5 a week), that the FBI has given me a special ID # to use when I get guns they have said to use it instead of my Driver license, the dealer's that I use has never seen that B4! And when I use it I'm approved within 5 min! and I have never had any agent from any government agency come to my door and ask to see anything that I have gotten. If they did I would not show them and would be contacting my attorney. I don't buy guns like that anymore 1 a month is good now.

I just wanted to share this info, I always thought that it was a bit weird, as for them keeping a record on me I really don't care if things get so bad that they want to hunt me down for my guns, I will be gone "hunting".

stg2ahn · Post by **stg2ahn** » 28 Jan 2009, 13:13

Medula Oblongata wrote:
stg2ahn wrote:I am not a lawyer, but I think by law, you have to let them see your guns if they ask.
Incorrect. You are under no legal obligation to ever 'show' anyone your guns. If they have a warrant they can search for and seize them, but you are under no legal obligation to assist with their search or seizure.

ATF got their nuts busted a few years ago for following women home from a gunshow in VA and demanding them to show their new purchased firearms. If the women refused, they were threatened with arrest until they complied. If they did comply, the ATF agents 'seized' the weapon for inspection and issued a letter informing them that they were required to present themselves before a 'review' with the ATF to have their weapon returned, and that if they failed to appear, they may be charged with a crime.

When the NRA through lobbying efforts, had Congression hearings, the Chief of the ATF said that the letters 'were without legal force or merit,' and 'were someone to refuse to comply, there was nothing we could do about it.'

http://www.mcsm.org/atf01.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

How about at checkpoints, or if they know you have a CCW and ask to see your gun?

RJR · Post by **RJR** » 28 Jan 2009, 13:16

We fill out multiple purchase forms almost everyday in our store. It is 2 handguns within a 5 day period. I have not heard from one customer about ATF visiting them because of it. We have a few local customers that purchase at least 4-5 guns a week and have never been bothered with. They are looking mostly at the Saturday night special guns that are bought in bunches and then sold on the street.

fatherfoof · Post by **fatherfoof** » 28 Jan 2009, 13:19

So unless you have a gun store, requiring an FFL, or were quartermaster/purchasing agent for a large PD, why would you buy 260 guns per year? Just a little curious? :ponder:

Post by **Grantness** » 28 Jan 2009, 13:22

Back in the 90's, I was getting so many guns (about 3-5 per week), that the FBI gave me a special ID # to use when getting guns. They said to use it instead of my driver's license. The dealers that I use have never seen that before. When I use it, Im approved within 5 minutes! I have never had any agent from any government agency come to my door and ask to see any of the guns that I bought. If they did, I would not show them my guns and contact my attorney. I dont buy guns like that anymore. One per month is good now.

I just wanted to share this info. I have always thought that it was a bit wierd that they kept a record on me. I really don't care. If things get so bad that they want to hunt me down for my guns, I will be "gone hunting".

...FTFY :p

*sorry, OCD... :laugh: *

Post by **f3rr37** » 28 Jan 2009, 13:48

RJR wrote:We fill out multiple purchase forms almost everyday in our store. It is 2 handguns within a 5 day period. I have not heard from one customer about ATF visiting them because of it. We have a few local customers that purchase at least 4-5 guns a week and have never been bothered with. They are looking mostly at the Saturday night special guns that are bought in bunches and then sold on the street.

By "They" (bolded in quote) you mean ATF and not your customers. Just want to make that clear to everyone.

RJR · Post by **RJR** » 28 Jan 2009, 14:03

Correct, ATF is looking for people that go around to different stores in the same area and buy up the cheapest guns they can find. It would throw up a flag if someone bought a pile of cheap Ravens or Jennings in 2 or 3 different stores in one area.

gw45acp · Post by **gw45acp** » 28 Jan 2009, 15:36

fatherfoof wrote:So unless you have a gun store, requiring an FFL, or were quartermaster/purchasing agent for a large PD, why would you buy 260 guns per year? Just a little curious? :ponder:

Because you have the money and it's legal?

Post by **Cyberfly** » 28 Jan 2009, 15:58

MO, I read the 2 firearms in 24 hours from the ATF website when I was going through their paperwork and rules for FFL stuff. Could I have confused that with their SOT rules? Is it different with the Class II weapons?

Nwatson99 · Post by **Nwatson99** » 28 Jan 2009, 19:12

I know a gentleman that was visited last week over the very same reason as well as confirmation from folks I know working in the three letter agencies, this is not BS or hear say or I would not have created this topic.

I think it sucks that they would even think we would purchase a pistol such as this to send to mexico or just buying it for shits and giggles. As far as I am concerned you pass the background check which we have no choice in doing when we buy, then you buy what you want in what ever quantity you prefer.

Knock on wood I have never been declined in purchasing, but I stood at the local FFL's back before X-mas and watched 3) people in a role declined for pistol purchases and one guy I actually took there did not as much as have a parking ticket on his record, but he was declined and had to wait until the following week to pick up his Glock.

Once the current administration gets done with the economy, where do you think they will be focusing on next??

gw45acp · Post by **gw45acp** » 28 Jan 2009, 19:58

I believe RJR who is an FFL and volume seller of firearms and a respected supporter of the forum.

The OP offered only assertions and not a shred of evidence. The BS Meter is in the red.

stg2ahn · Post by **stg2ahn** » 28 Jan 2009, 20:15

Nwatson99 wrote:I apologize if this has already been posted.
Folks while purchasing the 5.7 Handgun be advised if you purchase three or more in a 24 hour period you are flagged by the FBI, your information is then sent to the ATF and there is a 95% chance you will be visited by agents and they will expect to see the handguns.
5.7 handguns has the highest smuggle rate into Mexico than any other handgun on the market today.

.......

Post by **jmz5** » 28 Jan 2009, 20:20

Niel is no Troll, he is the owner of AR15Armory.com. :thumb:

Post by **Grantness** » 28 Jan 2009, 20:24

Come on guys. Lets not jump all over him for THIS. For all we know, he is relaying this story in good faith.

stg2ahn · Post by **stg2ahn** » 28 Jan 2009, 20:25

I stand corrected. My sincere apologies..

gw45acp · Post by **gw45acp** » 28 Jan 2009, 20:33

Grantness, the story may be relayed in good faith, but it is just hearsay and rumor until there is a documented case of this type of abuse of federal authority. I wish I had the money to buy two or three more 5.7 pistols to test the rumor. :ponder:

flyingirish04 · Post by **flyingirish04** » 28 Jan 2009, 20:47

fatherfoof wrote:So unless you have a gun store, requiring an FFL, or were quartermaster/purchasing agent for a large PD, why would you buy 260 guns per year? Just a little curious? :ponder:

Why not? It is within your rights. I would rather have the right and not excercise it, then to not have it at all.

mayadajeffery · Post by **mayadajeffery** » 28 Jan 2009, 21:00

Medula Oblongata wrote:
stg2ahn wrote:I am not a lawyer, but I think by law, you have to let them see your guns if they ask.
Incorrect. You are under no legal obligation to ever 'show' anyone your guns. If they have a warrant they can search for and seize them, but you are under no legal obligation to assist with their search or seizure.

ATF got their nuts busted a few years ago for following women home from a gunshow in VA and demanding them to show their new purchased firearms. If the women refused, they were threatened with arrest until they complied. If they did comply, the ATF agents 'seized' the weapon for inspection and issued a letter informing them that they were required to present themselves before a 'review' with the ATF to have their weapon returned, and that if they failed to appear, they may be charged with a crime.

When the NRA through lobbying efforts, had Congression hearings, the Chief of the ATF said that the letters 'were without legal force or merit,' and 'were someone to refuse to comply, there was nothing we could do about it.'

http://www.mcsm.org/atf01.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That was one of the more intelligent posts I've ever read on any internet forum. :gavel: I guess this means you are more than 'just' a medulla oblongata. You should rename yourself 'Cerebral Cortex'.

fatherfoof · Post by **fatherfoof** » 28 Jan 2009, 22:45

We have three federal lodges here in TX, and I'm their chaplain. I asked the ATF guys and called an FBI friend. State to state it varies. Waiting periods are locally (state determined). Some places even cops and agents need to wait. Here in Tx the wait is 5 minutes. It simplifies things (I hear conspiracy paranoia already) to give them your soc. and place of birth, etc. Almost any name and DOB will be an "NCIC hit" and you'll have problems. This eliminates that. Frankly I don't care they know I'm an old fart- you can tell by looking at me. The limits on guns are state imposed. They now are looking for patterns due to gun runners from gangs buying in cash 25 Glocks and going north, as they are with the aforementioned two dozen ARs purchased in Houston with cash that went to Mexico and killed cops. To be blunt, these guys shoot and hunt like us. They are ok guys and I've had a few in my home help with their thoughts on reloading. The only problem I anticipate, is political crap from the new prez. A word to the wise, as far back as 25 yrs ago I hit a couple drug houses on raids looking for alleged automatic weapons. If your clean, nobody will bother you. If you mess with a cop or fed, your picture and info goes on the bulletin board and you better watch the speed limit. There is no conspiracy and law enforcement is-- at least with small departments probably half qualified by NRA insructors. Come see my hunting rifles. If they become illegal, like you I shall rapidly sell them at a gunshow to parties unknown.

Post by **Cyberfly** » 29 Jan 2009, 07:22

fatherfoof wrote:Come see my hunting rifles. If they become illegal, like you I shall rapidly sell them at a gunshow to parties unknown.

If mine ever become illegal, they're going to meet an unfortunate boating accident.
While I'm fishing in open ocean.
In VERY deep water.
And I took them in case I met a landshark.
Like a lawyer...

Post by **jmz5** » 29 Jan 2009, 07:45

The Allegheny reservoir is over 100 feet deep.

tdevince · Post by **tdevince** » 29 Jan 2009, 07:50

fatherfoof wrote: If your clean, nobody will bother you.

Maybe in a perfect world, but too many instances to the contrary for me to hang my hat on that axiom.

Post by **Cyberfly** » 29 Jan 2009, 11:47

Oh hey. I just thought of something. Now that libs are back in the white house, we can start looking forward to more news articles of people living in 'compounds' and the word 'patriot' being a dirty word again!!
Yay!! :clap: :clap: :clap:
I always got a kick out of how when Komrade Klinton and his henchman were in office that everybody that they didn't like lived in compounds and were cultists and ended up dead. Okay, well, I didn't like that last part, but I thought it was funny that everybody was afraid of being labeled a 'Patriot' and when Bush got the job, everybody was afraid of NOT being one.
Weird, dontcha think?

Wollychop · Post by **Wollychop** » 29 Jan 2009, 11:51

Cyberfly wrote:Oh hey. I just thought of something. Now that libs are back in the white house, we can start looking forward to more news articles of people living in 'compounds' and the word 'patriot' being a dirty word again!!
Yay!! :clap: :clap: :clap:
I always got a kick out of how when Komrade Klinton and his henchman were in office that everybody that they didn't like lived in compounds and were cultists and ended up dead. Okay, well, I didn't like that last part, but I thought it was funny that everybody was afraid of being labeled a 'Patriot' and when Bush got the job, everybody was afraid of NOT being one.
Weird, dontcha think?

Probably not that off, considering the 2A stance that the new Attorney General has.

Post by **panzermk2** » 29 Jan 2009, 12:36

Guys

MO is an X-ATF field agent who performed these audits.

Jay

eccvets · Post by **eccvets** » 29 Jan 2009, 21:46

you cant buy more then 1 a month of anything here in cali before you get arrested...

Post by **MrSlippyFist** » 30 Jan 2009, 15:43

eccvets wrote:you cant buy more then 1 a month of anything here in cali before you get arrested...

Wrong.

That only applies to the purchase of handguns through an FFL.

PPT are exempt from the once per 30 day rule.

Long guns, you can buy your heart out.

Post by **Cyberfly** » 30 Jan 2009, 15:55

Until Bam Bam bin Biden reinstates the AWB...permanently. :furious:

Nwatson99 · Post by **Nwatson99** » 31 Jan 2009, 09:31

Folks I am not here to try and fight or create any problems, I am only letting you folks know what I know for a fact happened and will happen again.
I was going to put this on the Armory as well, but the 5.7 following is not as large as it is here so out of respect to Jay, Justin, Staff and members I wanted to give you folks the heads up on what had happened and what is the plan for future inspections.

Post by **panzermk2** » 31 Jan 2009, 09:47

Josh
No offense taken. They may have been selected for another reason or just randomly. When the ATF was giving crap when we applied for out FFL it was fun to watch MO rip them up. He knew the laws better then the ATF auditor that was trying to pass him self off as an agent. MO was a field agent.

That's also something to keep in mind an ATF Auditor and agent are 2 different beings. Auditors are forever trying to pass them selves off as agents and that's what this one did. Started talking tough until MO contacted his boss's boss directly at ATF. Things when smoothly after that.

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