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Capers
04-07-2007, 01:43 PM
I am currently looking at potential graduate programs for when I graduate.
One of the criteria I have is for them to be gun friendly and allow ccw on campus. Most of the policies I have read so far say illegal or unauthorized possession ... is prohibited. Some of them just say unauthorized possession is prohibited. I have mostly looked at school's in Tennessee, Florida, North Carolina, and Virginia ( What can I say, I like the South).

I read in Duke's Code of Conduct that it is against NC law to have a firearm on any campus.

What is your interpretation of the policies?

Currently, my college prohibits gun possession by students and faculty on any campus grounds. Which right now doesn't affect me since I can't get my ccw for another 6 months or so. However, when I graduate next spring I will be old enough to carry, so when I go to a school I want to be able to.


I hope I posted this in the right place, I'd hate to face the wrath of btown

btown02
04-07-2007, 01:47 PM
Do not get caught CCW on campus in Florida unless you are LEO. Most of those "policies" have a State law to back it up, and the CCW rules and regs also limit places you can carry. This section will do for your thread. :)

Capers
04-07-2007, 01:56 PM
I am mostly looking at states that will honor my ccw from VA, and I was dissapointed to hear that about Florida. They seemed to be friendly allowing ccw and honoring the VA and UF has a great program for me :(.

btown02
04-07-2007, 02:01 PM
A lot of States with CCW will not allow carry on school grounds, just as they will not allow carry in a Courthouse or a bar. Florida is CCW friendly, but there are rules.

EARS
04-07-2007, 02:02 PM
Most states (I'm in New York) it is against state law to possess a firearm on any school property. In New York, the only ones allowed to carry are LEO and those in "official duty status" ex: Armored Truck Employees making a pickup or delivery. If caught with or without a CCW permit, you are arrested and off to jail. To say the least, your CCW Permit is no more.

Medula Oblongata
04-07-2007, 02:43 PM
Utah

State law allows a licensed citizen to carry CCW while on State University grounds, only private universitites such as BYU are exempted. As BYU is private property, they may do as they wish.

This law has passed the Constitutional muster. The only comprimise is that if a student does not wish to share a dorm room with a licensed CCW student, he will be allowed a transfer. The universities will have designated "NON CCW" dorms. I ask you, would you rather bunk in a CCW dorm, or a declared safe place to commit crime?

P90wn3r
04-07-2007, 03:03 PM
I figured I'd throw in what the feds have to say about school zones in particular. http://www.atf.gov/pub/gen_pub/gun_free_school_zone_notice.pdf

btown02
04-07-2007, 03:10 PM
It's a good thing States can modify that.

susan28
04-11-2007, 11:01 PM
jeez "non ccw zones" would be disastrous for female students given the prevalence of rapes on campus, it's practicalyy an invitation.

good to know about Utah, i thought forced vulnerability was pretty much universal on campuses, no doubt part of why they're so dangerous.

i find btown's wrath rather charming, but it's more fun as a spectator :)

btown02
04-11-2007, 11:14 PM
i find btown's wrath rather charming
:D

rips31
04-12-2007, 01:36 AM
jeez "non ccw zones" would be disastrous for female students given the prevalence of rapes on campus, it's practicalyy an invitation.

good to know about Utah, i thought forced vulnerability was pretty much universal on campuses, no doubt part of why they're so dangerous.

i find btown's wrath rather charming, but it's more fun as a spectator :)
that's why schools have (unarmed) escort services at nite. they figure that 2ppl getting jumped is better than 1. that and less liability for them. :rolleyes:

Zaeroh
04-12-2007, 05:57 AM
I remember at USC there were armed university cops everywhere... and these were not LAPD, just academy trained security guards.

black campbell
04-12-2007, 03:39 PM
Good luck finding schools outside of Utah that will allow it. Even here in New Mexico -- seat of the Wild West -- you can't carry on the campus. I have to lock my FN in the motorcycle's boot when I hit campus, or turn it in to the campus PD to hld while I'm at school. I carry a Kimber pepper spray thingee while there.

That said, I'd be stunned if less than a third of the students weren't packing.

jmz5
04-16-2007, 12:46 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070416/ap_on_re_us/virginia_tech_shooting;_ylt=AtZgZ0pGZz6..4DEeB8sWnms0NUE

By SUE LINDSEY, Associated Press Writer
2 minutes ago

http://img77.imageshack.us/img77/249/captf450c4d475ae48be81emd9.th.jpg (http://img77.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captf450c4d475ae48be81emd9.jpg)

BLACKSBURG, Va. - A gunman opened fire in a dorm and classroom at Virginia Tech on Monday, killing 21 people and wounding another 21 before he was killed, police said.

"Today the university was struck with a tragedy that we consider of monumental proportions," said university president Charles Steger. "The university is shocked and indeed horrified."

The university reported shootings at opposite sides of the 2,600-acre campus, beginning at about 7:15 a.m. at West Ambler Johnston, a co-ed residence hall that houses 895 people, and continuing about two hours later at Norris Hall, an engineering building.

One student was killed in a dorm and the others were killed in the classroom, Virginia Tech Police Chief W.R. Flinchum.

After the shootings, all entrances to the campus were closed and classes canceled through Tuesday.

"There's just a lot of commotion. It's hard to tell exactly what's going on," said Jason Anthony Smith, 19, who lives in the dorm where shooting took place.

Aimee Kanode, a freshman from Martinsville, said the shooting happened on the 4th floor of West Ambler Johnston dormitory, one floor above her room. Kanode's resident assistant knocked on her door about 8 a.m. to notify students to stay put.

"They had us under lockdown," Kanode said. "They temporarily lifted the lockdown, the gunman shot again."

"We're all locked in our dorms surfing the Internet trying to figure out what's going on," Kanode said.

Madison Van Duyne, a student who was interviewed by telephone on CNN, said, "We are all in lockdown. Most of the students are sitting on the floors away from the windows just trying to be as safe as possible."

It was second time in less than a year that the campus was closed because of a shooting.

In August 2006, the opening day of classes was canceled and the campus closed when an escaped jail inmate allegedly killed a hospital guard off campus and fled to the Tech area. A sheriff's deputy involved in the manhunt was killed on a trail just off campus.

The accused gunman, William Morva, faces capital murder charges.

Capers
04-16-2007, 12:58 PM
Thats my campus. I was on the bus to school when it stopped and the driver said they had to 10-11( stop and not procede) and that campus was closed and to go home and remain indoors.

My roommate and I are safe as well as my girlfriend and the people that I know.

FNPfan
04-16-2007, 01:54 PM
Given what has happened in Virginia today, I doubt you'll be having any luck having a gun on campus.

Rotorblade
04-16-2007, 01:58 PM
Oh Crap Here we go again.
If there was every a time when our rights were about to be put on the ringer, here it is.

Interview with spokesman(Lady)for the president some idiot reporter asked if this would affect upcoming gun laws or current laws.

:rolleyes:

Capers
04-16-2007, 02:14 PM
That's the sad part, if students were allowed to carry on campus without fear of expulsion, then this might have had a different outcome.

Esteves
04-16-2007, 02:16 PM
Here's the current policy for Virginia Tech http://www.policies.vt.edu/5616.pdf

Which just goes to show that someone bent on murder is going to ignore:
Unenforceable/unenforced policy (with relatively trifling consequences)
The laws of the land
Commonly accepted moral laws and commandments

In my line of business, all of the above are called "administrative controls." Administrative controls without technical preventative controls (enforcement) are ineffective and do nothing but create burden for those who do wish to comply (and aren't the target audience of the control in the first place.)

Many technical controls detective and/or preventative), in order to be effective, lead to what's known as a police state.

Theoretical/philosophical discussion aside, my prayers go out to the families of the slain and wounded.

Capers
04-16-2007, 02:49 PM
Just found out one of my favorite teachers was in the academic building :(

Rotorblade
04-16-2007, 02:58 PM
Pray for Virginia Tech Guys

Pray.

smeman
04-16-2007, 03:34 PM
All this may change shortly. Va Tech is going to cause some very great changes for the worse, I think. :cry:

Esteves
04-16-2007, 04:31 PM
VPC has already issued a statement/position.
The Brady bunch has also issued a statement and is using the incident to drive their "we are outraged" campaign.

black campbell
04-16-2007, 05:40 PM
One of the delegates for the VA state gov't has come out reminding people that this was why they tried to allow CCW on university campuses.

1. What the #$#! were the campus cops doing..? 2 dead, suspect on the loose an they don't lock down the school?

2. This guy shot 33 dead, but more were injured...that means he was reloading at some point. Why didn't someone brain this twit?

miker57
04-16-2007, 06:02 PM
It has been reported that the shooter was an asian male and used two 9mm handguns and had several mags. This was a terrible incident and the anti's will now blame high cap mags for it. No specifics on what mags he had yet.

The anti's would really have a field day if it was an AR or AK or godforbid a FN 5.7.

Megatron
04-16-2007, 07:06 PM
First of all, my condolences go out to those who were killed and injured by that gunman.

It didn't surprise me a bit that the anti-gunners are gorging over this bit of news like a bunch of vultures on a dead carcass.

I've went to read some of the posts on MSNBC's message board. Some of the postings were pathetic. It's ridiculous that some of them are blaming the NRA and even the 2nd Amendment for this tragedy.

MLee
04-16-2007, 08:59 PM
All the more reason anyone who can carry should. My prayers go out to the families and those on campus. I remember when there were 4 dead in Ohio. What a mess.

Megatron
04-16-2007, 09:34 PM
That old bag Nazi Pelosi has already made an asinine remark about Wayne LaPierre of the NRA. She said that she "hopes that Wayne LaPierre can sleep good tonight". :mad:

There was no reason whatsoever for that remark. :mad:

Like I've said before, socialist scum like her are already exploiting the VA Tech tragedy to further their twisted agendas. :barf:

hxmunster
04-17-2007, 12:37 AM
I hate to even suggest this, but isn't it a little too much of a coincidence that there is the largest school shooting in US history shortly after gun control advocates suffer a major setback in DC, and just when they need support for renewed weapons restrictions in Congress?

jshay
04-17-2007, 02:08 AM
CNN is reporting that two handguns were seized at the scene, one was a 9 mm and one was a .22 cal.

btown02
04-17-2007, 09:31 AM
I hate to even suggest this, but isn't it a little too much of a coincidence that there is the largest school shooting in US history shortly after gun control advocates suffer a major setback in DC, and just when they need support for renewed weapons restrictions in Congress?
Welcome to the forum. I think you're way off base to suggest something like that.

jmz5
04-17-2007, 09:50 AM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070417/ap_on_re_us/virginia_tech_shooting

Va. Tech president: Gunman was student
By ADAM GELLER, AP National Writer
8 minutes ago

BLACKSBURG, Va. - A Virginia Tech senior from South Korea was behind the massacre of at least 30 people locked inside a campus building in the deadliest shooting rampage in modern U.S. history, the university said Tuesday.

Ballistics tests also show that one of the guns inside that building was used in another shooting two hours earlier, at a dorm, Virginia State Police said.

Police identified the shooter as Cho Seung-Hui, 23, a senior from South Korea who was in the English department at Virginia Tech and lived on campus.

"It's certainly reasonable to assume that Cho was the shooter in both cases," but authorities haven't made the link for sure, said Col. Steve Flaherty, superintendent of the Virginia State Police.

A law enforcement official, speaking on condition of anonymity because the information had not been announced, said Cho was carrying a backpack that contained receipts for a March purchase of a Glock 9 mm pistol.

smeman
04-17-2007, 09:59 AM
thanks for the update

jmz5
04-17-2007, 10:08 AM
Your welcome.

btown02
04-17-2007, 10:16 AM
Gun bill gets shot down by panel

HB 1572, which would have allowed handguns on college campuses, died in subcommittee.

By Greg Esposito (greg.esposito@roanoke.com)
381-1675

A bill that would have given college students and employees the right to carry handguns on campus died with nary a shot being fired in the General Assembly.

House Bill 1572 didn't get through the House Committee on Militia, Police and Public Safety. It died Monday in the subcommittee stage, the first of several hurdles bills must overcome before becoming laws.

The bill was proposed by Del. Todd Gilbert, R-Shenandoah County, on behalf of the Virginia Citizens Defense League. Gilbert was unavailable Monday and spokesman Gary Frink would not comment on the bill's defeat other than to say the issue was dead for this General Assembly session.

Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker was happy to hear the bill was defeated. "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus."

Del. Dave Nutter, R-Christiansburg, would not comment Monday because he was not part of the subcommittee that discussed the bill.

Most universities in Virginia require students and employees, other than police, to check their guns with police or campus security upon entering campus. The legislation was designed to prohibit public universities from making "rules or regulations limiting or abridging the ability of a student who possesses a valid concealed handgun permit ... from lawfully carrying a concealed handgun."

The legislation allowed for exceptions for participants in athletic events, storage of guns in residence halls and military training programs.

Last spring a Virginia Tech student was disciplined for bringing a handgun to class, despite having a concealed handgun permit. Some gun owners questioned the university's authority, while the Virginia Association of Chiefs of Police came out against the presence of guns on campus.

In June, Tech's governing board approved a violence prevention policy reiterating its ban on students or employees carrying guns and prohibiting visitors from bringing them into campus facilities.

smeman
04-17-2007, 10:23 AM
Boy did that work as planned.

p99guy
04-17-2007, 10:44 AM
every classroom should, along with a fire extinguisher, should have another locked tempered glass case w/ hammer hanging on a chain containing a loaded PS90..the sign on glass shall read "in case of war, or rampaging student gunman- Break glass. Fire two rounds into the floor to get the feel of the weapon, then topically apply bullets to the approaprate person or persons operating outside of normal human boundries"

a firearm is a tool, a tool that should be availible to the good guys in time of need.

btown02
04-17-2007, 10:49 AM
Good one. :)

smeman
04-17-2007, 10:58 AM
That is attractive but expensive.Just post one of us there.

p99guy
04-17-2007, 11:03 AM
we're not attractive, but still expensive ....... while others arent cheap, but can be had lol

smeman
04-17-2007, 11:11 AM
True enough,sir.Still wish I had been there.

black campbell
04-17-2007, 11:27 AM
I hate to even suggest this, but isn't it a little too much of a coincidence that there is the largest school shooting in US history shortly after gun control advocates suffer a major setback in DC, and just when they need support for renewed weapons restrictions in Congress?

Both my wife and I had the same thought...then realized we sounded like the 9/11 nutters. :(

Still, wouldn't surprise me at all.

smeman
04-17-2007, 11:32 AM
I don't feel like a nutter.I have a 15 year old girl who wants to go to college in NYC for journalism. I want her to be able to go and not be afraid on her own campus. If wanting the world to be rid of such trash makes me a nutter, so be it.I can wear that hat.

Cyberfly
04-17-2007, 11:41 AM
All it would have taken is ONE properly trained CCW person, and the grand majority of this attrocity could have been avoided.
When will the left figure that out?

smeman
04-17-2007, 11:46 AM
I hope soon. Too many people died for them to ignore that they were wrong.And still they will still be able to convince themselves that taking guns away from the honest people will somehow magically make the theives and murderers quit using guns.

Poseidon5
04-17-2007, 12:07 PM
i know i'm preaching to the choir here, but as the saying goes, when you dis-arm + honest people you combine the two, and make dis-honest people.

Mahnmut
04-17-2007, 12:15 PM
Forgive my ignorance here guys, for I haven't been keeping up on the news. But was the S. Korean boy a US citizen? If not, how did he walk in and buy a gun in the first place?

smeman
04-17-2007, 12:17 PM
Haven't seen yet. But if they are as thorough as Ga. is, you can bet he is a citizen.

btown02
04-17-2007, 12:25 PM
Forgive my ignorance here guys, for I haven't been keeping up on the news. But was the S. Korean boy a US citizen? If not, how did he walk in and buy a gun in the first place?
A legal alien in the US can buy.


From the ATF web site.


B13) May aliens legally in the United States buy firearms?
An alien legally in the U.S. may acquire firearms if he has a State of residence. An alien has a State of residence only if he is residing in that State and has resided in a State continuously for at least 90 days prior to the purchase. An alien acquiring firearms from a licensee is required to prove both his identity, by presenting a government-issued photo identification, and his residency with substantiating documentation showing that he has resided in the State continuously for the 90-day period prior to the purchase. Examples of qualifying documentation to prove residency include: utility bills, lease agreements, credit card statements, and pay stubs from the purchaserís place of employment, if such documents include residential addresses.

Esteves
04-17-2007, 12:29 PM
Forgive my ignorance here guys, for I haven't been keeping up on the news. But was the S. Korean boy a US citizen? If not, how did he walk in and buy a gun in the first place?

http://www.cnn.com/POLITICS/blogs/politicalticker/2007/04/south-korean-embassy-shocked-and.html

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm

Mahnmut
04-17-2007, 12:29 PM
Oh I was aware of that rule btown, but I was wondering if he fell under that heading. Was he a legal alien?

Megatron
04-17-2007, 12:33 PM
Oh I was aware of that rule btown, but I was wondering if he fell under that heading. Was he a legal alien?

Yes, he was a legal alien. He was on permanent legal status as long as he was a student at VA Tech.

smeman
04-17-2007, 12:43 PM
Shame there isn't a way to screen them better.

Esteves
04-17-2007, 12:48 PM
Shame there isn't a way to screen them better.

Double-edged sword. There's a different "them" that thinks that you are a part of the "them" that also needs better "screening". Are you willing to pay that price?

btown02
04-17-2007, 12:49 PM
Double-edged sword. There's a different "them" that thinks that you are a part of the "them" that also needs better "screening". Are you willing to pay that price?
+1.

Shame there isn't a way to screen them better.
Better screening can't tell you what's in a persons mind and what his intentions will be for the gun or what might set him off in the future.

Capers
04-17-2007, 12:50 PM
Shame there isn't a way to screen them better.

They can just shoot the screeners and go on to what they intended to do

smeman
04-17-2007, 12:51 PM
that of course is true.

btown02
04-17-2007, 12:55 PM
They may have had a clue or two that this guy was not stable and should have been watched a little better.



Va. Tech gunman writings raised concerns
By ADAM GELLER, AP National Writer 12 minutes ago



The gunman suspected of carrying out the Virginia Tech massacre that left 33 people dead was identified Tuesday as a English major whose creative writing was so disturbing that he was referred to the school's counseling service.

News reports also said that he may have been taking medication for depression, that he was becoming increasingly violent and erratic, and that he left a note in his dorm in which he railed against "rich kids," "debauchery" and "deceitful charlatans" on campus.

Cho Seung-Hui, a 23-year-old senior, arrived in the United States as boy from South Korea in 1992 and was raised in suburban Washington, D.C., officials said. He was living on campus in a different dorm from the one where Monday's bloodbath began.

Police and university officials offered no clues as to exactly what set him off on the deadliest shooting rampage in modern U.S. history.

"He was a loner, and we're having difficulty finding information about him," school spokesman Larry Hincker said.

Professor Carolyn Rude, chairwoman of the university's English department, said she did not personally know the gunman. But she said she spoke with Lucinda Roy, the department's director of creative writing, who had Cho in one of her classes and described him as "troubled."

"There was some concern about him," Rude said. "Sometimes, in creative writing, people reveal things and you never know if it's creative or if they're describing things, if they're imagining things or just how real it might be. But we're all alert to not ignore things like this."

She said Cho was referred to the counseling service, but she said she did not know when, or what the outcome was. Rude refused to release any of his writings or his grades, citing privacy laws.

The Chicago Tribune reported on its Web site that he left a note in his dorm room that included a rambling list of grievances. Citing identified sources, the Tribune said he had recently shown troubling signs, including setting a fire in a dorm room and stalking some women.

Investigators believe Cho at some point had been taking medication for depression, the newspaper reported.

Mahnmut
04-17-2007, 12:58 PM
In the CBS debate between a spokesperson from the Brady's, and a pro-gun Senator. I find it hilarious how the Brady spokesperson thinks the problem is High Powered clips, and High Velocity clips. It makes me wonder....


How fast was he throwing those clips?


( Sorry, I know it's not a time for sarcastic, or is it sardonic, humor )

Megatron
04-17-2007, 01:12 PM
This Newsweek article below is about a father of one of the victims at Columbine and his thoughts on the VA Tech shootings. The father has said that gun control laws would not have prevented this tragedy.

www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18154902/site/newsweek/

Esteves
04-17-2007, 01:17 PM
This Newsweek article below is about a father of one of the victims at Columbine and his thoughts on the VA Tech shootings. The father has said that gun control laws would not have prevented this tragedy.

www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18154902/site/newsweek/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18154902/site/newsweek/)

A quote from that article:
School shootings always spark debate over the availability of guns. What's your view on gun control?
I spoke before Congress about a month after the Columbine tragedy and I said then that I didn't think gun control in itself could solve thisóand I say it now. Eric and Dylan broke dozens of laws to do what they did at Columbine, and unfortunately, if a person is determined to kill, and they don't care whether they live or die, they're going to find a way to do it whether or not they've got easy access to a gun.

FNPfan
04-17-2007, 01:35 PM
The gun isn't what should be blamed. That's like blaming the knife for a stabbing. It's the kid's fault. He did it, not the gun. The gun should not even be an issue with neither the Brady bunch or the news media. Mr Cho executed those 32 people. He is the one to be responsible for it, not some object. One way or another, this guy would have gone and done something drastic, gun or no gun. He set fire to a dorm, and stalked women in the past. His writings were disturbing. He should have been kicked out, and kept out a long time ago.

FNPfan
04-17-2007, 02:00 PM
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime_file/2007/04/17/2007-04-17_courageous_final_act_of_professor.html

Virginia Tech University Prof. Liviu Librescu, described as a family man who once did research for NASA, sacrificed his life to save his students in the shooting rampage yesterday.

"When he heard the gunfire, he blocked the entrance and got shot through the door," his daughter-in-law Ayala Schmulevich said.

"He realized he had to save the students," she said. "That was the kind of man he was."

The entire article is via link above.

Here's his profile on the school web page:

http://www.esm.vt.edu/php/person.php?id=10023

If this is all true, which I believe it is, then he is a hero. I felt that this should not go unnoticed in this trajedy. Rest in peace, Professor Liviu Librescu. You will be missed.

btown02
04-17-2007, 02:04 PM
The entire article is via link above.
Here's his profile on the school web page:

Let's keep all the related topics together. Thanks.

Esteves
04-17-2007, 02:14 PM
...He should have been kicked out, and kept out a long time ago.

And how would that (keeping him out) have been accomplished? 15' fences around every campus in the US with metal detectors and guards at every entry point? Even if that was effective at protecting the school, what about other venues?

What about deportation? It'd have to be immediate, with no recourse. Deportation wouldn't address the vast majority of local students that most schools have.

btown02
04-17-2007, 03:32 PM
It never fails, now all the nuts want in on the action.




Threats rattle 3 universities, 2 schools
1 hour, 8 minutes ago



Campus threats forced lock-downs and evacuations at universities in Texas, Oklahoma and Tennessee and two public schools in Louisiana on Tuesday, a day after a Virginia Tech student's shooting rampage killed 33 people.

In Louisiana, parents picked up hundreds of students from Bogalusa's high school and middle school amid reports that a man had been arrested Tuesday morning for threatening a mass killing in a note that alluded to the murders at Virginia Tech.

Schools Superintendent Jerry Payne said both schools were locked down and police arrested a 53-year-old man who allegedly made the threat in a note he gave to a student headed to the private Bowling Green School in Franklinton. Both towns are in southeastern Louisiana.

"The note referred to what happened at Virginia Tech," Payne said. "It said something like, 'If you think that was bad, then you haven't seen anything yet."

In Austin, authorities evacuated buildings at St. Edward's University after a threatening note was found, a school official said.

Police secured the campus perimeter and were searching the buildings, St. Edward's University spokeswoman Mischelle Amador said. She declined to say where the note was found and said its contents were "nonspecific."

The two other scares were determined to be unfounded.

At the University of Tennessee at Chattanooga, officials ordered three campus administration buildings evacuated for almost two hours Tuesday morning in response to a telephone bomb threat. The city's bomb squad searched the buildings but found nothing, campus spokesman Chuck Cantrell said.

Cantrell said there was no reason to believe the bogus threat was related to the shootings at Virginia Tech, but "we just chose to err on the side of caution today."

The other, at the University of Oklahoma, had started with a report of a man spotted on campus carrying a suspicious object, officials said.

The man was carrying an umbrella, not a weapon, and he later identified himself to authorities, University of Oklahoma President David Boren said in a statement. Boren initially had said the person was believed to carrying a yoga mat.

"We now consider the matter closed," Boren said. "We always want to err on the side of caution in a situation like this."

At St. Edward's in Austin, students who live on campus were being allowed to return to their dormitories as police finished searching each building, Amador said. Faculty, staff and all other students were asked to stay away from the campus, and morning and afternoon classes were canceled. About 5,200 students are enrolled at the Catholic university south of downtown Austin.

Amador said the university's reaction was not influenced by Monday's attack at Virginia Tech.

"No matter what day or when this would have happened, we will always take the necessary precautions to protect our students, our faculty, our staff, the entire university community," she said.

Megatron
04-17-2007, 04:55 PM
And how would that (keeping him out) have been accomplished? 15' fences around every campus in the US with metal detectors and guards at every entry point? Even if that was effective at protecting the school, what about other venues?

What about deportation? It'd have to be immediate, with no recourse. Deportation wouldn't address the vast majority of local students that most schools have.

If the campus knew that the gunman had mental problems, he should've been committed to a mental hospital.

Esteves
04-17-2007, 09:26 PM
If the campus knew that the gunman had mental problems, he should've been committed to a mental hospital.

That's another slippery slope. Immediate family usually has the right (within limits) to involuntarily commit people that meet certain criteria. So can the state, in certain circumstances. I doubt that a school has that right when dealing with non-minors, nor do I think that they should.

Not all mental problems warrant hospitalization. Involuntary commitment is a serious thing. He was referred for counseling, and he obviously should have taken advantage of the offer, perhaps even checking himself in, but I have doubts that counseling or even hospitalization would have cured whatever caused him to take the actions that he did.

In a different universe, Heinlein's Coventry would have been appropriate, but that society put up with things that this one wouldn't.

Capers
04-17-2007, 09:42 PM
On the news they said he was recommended for counseling and he had been forcibly put in after he made remarks about suicide

badaddiction
04-17-2007, 09:53 PM
The Liberal Media in Europe (which accounts for just about all of European Media), has set the blame for Seung-Hui Cho's personal actions squarely into Charlton Heston's lap. http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,477686,00.html

The read is entertaining and gives you the mindset that dominates a lot of Europe. In the Article it states among other things:

"There is no sign of attitudes hardening. Despite the opposition of every police force in the land, Congress in 2004 allowed to lapse a 10-year federal ban on semi-automatic assault weapons, a particular favorite of violent criminals. The reaction was not exactly deafening. Even amid yesterday's shock, the initial calls were for stricter security measures on campuses -- not serious moves to reduce gun ownership."

...and this one I like: French conservative daily Le Figaro writes:

"It was all too easy easy for the elected representatives of the United States, from the White House to the Congress, to express their sadness yesterday; America's problem with fire-arms represents a political issue for which they share responsibility. Here is a country that represents the vanguard of development and democracy while it is legal to carry a gun in 45 of 50 states, as long as the gun is not loaded. ... At the end of 2004, the Republican-controlled Congress allowed a law to expire that prohibited the sale of semi-automatic and military weapons. Thereafter, legal changes were made to protect the producers and vendors of fire-arms from being held responsible for the actions of gun owners."

I did not know that prior to 2004 I was supposed to walk around with my gun unloaded only. Did you guys know that Gun Shops were not supposed to be selling semi-automatics before the evil Republicans allowed the ban to expire? Nobody told Georgia Gun Dealers.

The same paper continues with: "Contrary to what one would imagine, this backward stance is not something left over from the Wild West." ...


This one is my favorite:

German daily Bild writes:

"Now we will probably begin discussing the overly lax gun laws in the United States. There, buying a machine gun is often easier than getting a driver's license. And a new ban on violent games and killer videos will also be put back on the agenda. But in the end, nothing is likely to happen. And the next killer already lives somewhere among us. But we have little reason to point an accusing finger at the Americans. Despite strict gun legislation, we (in Germany) have experienced the school shootings in Erfurt and Emsdetten. We have to consider the problems in our society. And we have to take care of our fellow humans."

It is amazing how ignorant the press can be. They make it out like you can just stroll into a 7-Eleven fill-up with gas, get a pack of smokes and oh yeah, (In Ahh-nold's voice) give me that Uzi-9 "milli-meterrr."

I'll be back!

btown02
04-17-2007, 09:58 PM
Let's keep all the related topics in the same thread please. Thanks.

BlitzPig
04-17-2007, 10:21 PM
I fear this will be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

If six years from now any of us non LEO types are allowed to own firearms I'll be suprised.

Capers
04-17-2007, 10:25 PM
I fear this will be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

If six years from now any of us non LEO types are allowed to own firearms I'll be suprised.

I think we might become a little more restricted. But I am sure the NRA, VCDL, and other organizations will provide us with a firm stance to keep our rights. The thing that worries me is the democratic congress and the fact that in my views, most of them are uneducated about firearms and only know what the media feeds them about the dastardly "automatic " glock 19 ( As I saw on the news today ).

EARS
04-18-2007, 02:22 AM
Don't believe what your read or hear in the news media. They usually are misinformed and don't check their information before reporting it.

FNPfan
04-18-2007, 02:32 AM
Don't believe what your read or hear in the news media. They usually are misinformed and don't check their information before reporting it.

I know. Another thing that really made me mad was when one local reporter in my area asked a person how he felt about guns, he said, "Buying a gun is easier then buying a six pack of beer". AAARRRRRRRGGGHhh!!!!! That's so frustrating to take. Truly frightening.

DeanC
04-18-2007, 10:54 AM
Well, it was on TV during some of the coverage of the VA Tech incident. Anybody else see it, or was I just fantasizing?

btown02
04-18-2007, 10:58 AM
See post #71 above.

DeanC
04-18-2007, 11:36 AM
Jawohl ;)

Isn't Va Tech a quasi-military school? Why didn't the cadets have access to guns? Why didn't the cadets act like men and bumrush this guy?

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/nm/20070418/2007_04_17t225138_450x332_us_usa_crime_shooting.jpg

Capers
04-18-2007, 12:14 PM
Virginia Tech was originally founded as an ROTC school and to come here you had to join the corps of cadets program. Starting in the 60s ( I think might have been later/earlier ) military service was no longer required.

They do have field training and the like but I don't think that they are allowed guns on campus just like other students aren't. I'm not sure if their commanders are allowed firearms on campus either. I know that when they are doing their gun drills they are using inoperable rifles

xotech
04-18-2007, 02:38 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/18/us/18virginia.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin

"After two people, Emily Jane Hilscher, a freshman, and Ryan Clark, the resident adviser whose room was nearby in the dormitory, were shot dead, the campus police began searching for Karl D. Thornhill, who was described in Internet memorials as Ms. Hilscherís boyfriend."


"According to a search warrant filed by the police, Ms. Hilscher's
roommate had told the police that Mr. Thornhill, a student at
nearby Radford University, had guns at his town house. The roommate
told the police that she had recently been at a shooting range with
Mr. Thornhill, the affidavit said, leading the police to believe he
may have been the gunman."

edit: Thank-you for moving my post and keeping things together.

btown02
04-18-2007, 02:41 PM
Once again, post #71 above. I've merged five different threads about the same topic into one. :)

Capers
04-18-2007, 04:40 PM
How hectic and crowded these boards would be with out you btown :)

btown02
04-18-2007, 07:09 PM
As if there was any doubt he was unstable.




Va. Tech gunman sent material to NBC
By MATT APUZZO, AP National Writer 10 minutes ago



Between his first and second bursts of gunfire, the Virginia Tech gunman mailed a package to NBC News containing pictures of him brandishing weapons and video of him delivering a diatribe about getting even with rich people.

"This may be a very new, critical component of this investigation. We're in the process right now of attempting to analyze and evaluate its worth," said Col. Steve Flaherty, superintendent of Virginia State Police. He gave no details on the material, which NBC said it received in Wednesday morning's mail.

NBC said that a time stamp on the package indicated the material was mailed in the two-hour window between the first burst of gunfire in a high-rise dormitory and the second fusillade, at a classroom building. Thirty-three people died in the rampage, including the gunman, 23-year-old student Cho Seung-Hui, who committed suicide.

The package included a manifesto that "rants against rich people and warns that he wants to get even," according to a law enforcement official who spoke to The Associated Press on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak about the case.

MSNBC said the package included a CD-ROM on which Cho read his manifesto.

Late Wednesday, MSNBC showed a photo from the package of Cho glaring at the camera, his arms outstretched with a gun in each hand. He wears a khaki-colored military-style vest, fingerless gloves and a backwards, black baseball cap. "NBC Nightly News" planned to show some of the material Wednesday night.

NBC News President Steve Capus said the network promptly turned the material over to the FBI in New York.

The material is "hard-to-follow ... disturbing, very disturbing very angry, profanity-laced," he said on the MSNBC Web site. Among the materials are digital video files showing Cho talking directly to the camera about his hatred of the wealthy, Capus said.

It does not include any images of the shootings, but contains "vague references," including "things like, `This didn't have to happen,'" Capus said.

The package bore a Postal Service stamp showing that it had been received at a Virginia post office at 9:01 a.m. Monday, about an hour and 45 minutes after Cho first opened fire, according to MSNBC.

If the package was indeed mailed between the first attack and the second, that would help explain where Cho was and what he did during that two-hour window.

Earlier in the day Wednesday, authorities disclosed that more than a year before the massacre, Cho was accused of stalking two women and was taken to a psychiatric hospital on a magistrate's orders because of fears he might be suicidal. He was later released with orders to undergo outpatient treatment.

The disclosure added to the rapidly growing list of warning signs that appeared well before the student opened fire. Among other things, Cho's twisted, violence-filled writings and sullen, vacant-eyed demeanor had disturbed professors and students so much that he was removed from one English class and was repeatedly urged to get counseling.

In November and December 2005, two women complained to campus police that they had received calls and computer messages from Cho, but they considered the messages "annoying," not threatening, and neither pressed charges, Virginia Tech Police Chief Wendell Flinchum said.

Neither woman was among the victims in the massacre, police said.

Around the same time, one of Cho's professors informally shared some concerns about the young man's writings, but no official report was filed, Flinchum said.

After the second stalking complaint, the university obtained a temporary detention order and took Cho away because an acquaintance reported he might be suicidal, authorities said. Police did not identify the acquaintance.



On Dec. 13, 2005, a magistrate ordered Cho to undergo an evaluation at Carilion St. Albans, a private psychiatric hospital. The magistrate signed the order after an initial evaluation found probable cause that Cho was a danger to himself or others as a result of mental illness.

The next day, according to court records, doctors at Carilion conducted further examination and a special justice, Paul M. Barnett, approved outpatient treatment.

A medical examination conducted Dec. 14 found that that Cho's "affect is flat. ... He denies suicidal ideations. He does not acknowledge symptoms of a thought disorder. His insight and judgment are normal."

The court papers indicate that Barnett checked a box that said Cho "presents an imminent danger to himself as a result of mental illness." Barnett did not check the box that would indicate a danger to others.

It is unclear how long Cho stayed at Carilion, though court papers indicate he was free to leave as of Dec. 14. Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker said Cho had been continually enrolled at Tech and never took a leave of absence.

A spokesman for Carilion St. Albans would not comment.

Though the stalking incidents did not result in criminal charges, police referred Cho to the university's disciplinary system, Flinchum said. But Ed Spencer, assistant vice president of student affairs, would not comment on any disciplinary proceedings, saying federal law protects students' medical privacy even after death.

Some parents complained that the university failed to lock down the campus and spread a warning after the first round of shootings. Still, two days after the shooting spree, many students resisted pointing fingers.

"Who would've woken up in the morning and said, `Maybe this student who's just troubled is really going to do something this horrific?'" said Elizabeth Hart, a communications major and a spokeswoman for the student government.

Lucinda Roy, professor of English at Virginia Tech, said that she, too, relayed her concerns to campus police and various other college units after Cho displayed antisocial behavior in her class and handed in disturbing writing assignments.

But she said authorities "hit a wall" in terms of what they could do "with a student on campus unless he'd made a very overt threat to himself or others." Cho resisted her repeated suggestion that he undergo counseling, Roy said.

One of the first Virginia Tech officials to recognize Cho's problems was award-winning poet Nikki Giovanni, who kicked him out of her introduction to creative writing class in late 2005.

Students in Giovanni's class had told their professor that Cho was taking photographs of their legs and knees under the desks with his cell phone. Female students refused to come to class. She said she considered him "mean" and "a bully."

Questions lingered over whether campus police should have issued an immediate campus-wide warning of a killer on the loose and locked down the campus after the first burst of gunfire.

Police said that after the first shooting, in which two students were killed, they believed that it was a domestic dispute, and that the gunman had fled the campus. Police went looking for a young man, Karl David Thornhill, who had once shot guns at a firing range with the roommate of one of the victims. But police said Thornhill is no longer under suspicion.

___ Associated Press writers Allen G. Breed, Vicki Smith, Sue Lindsey and Justin Pope in Blacksburg, Va., Matt Barakat in Richmond, Va., and Colleen Long and Tom Hays in New York contributed to this report.

jmz5
04-18-2007, 07:18 PM
Definitely unstable.

FNPfan
04-18-2007, 07:23 PM
^Can you provide a link, please, btown02? Thanks. :)

btown02
04-18-2007, 07:25 PM
^Can you provide a link, please, btown02? Thanks. :)
Here you go.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070418/ap_on_re_us/virginia_tech_shooting

Secretwoods
04-18-2007, 07:37 PM
I just heard it reported on CNN that the Virginia Tech murderer was adjudicated mentally ill in 2005! If this is correct, and I know that the talking heads are rarely correct initially, but if so - The shooter WOULD NOT have been legally allowed to purchase the guns under existing laws! This clearly demonstrates, once again, that the Federal Government doesn't enforce the laws that are already on the books! New gun laws aren't needed because they won't enforce the ones we already have!

btown02
04-18-2007, 07:39 PM
Welcome to the forum. Read post #71.

jmz5
04-18-2007, 07:40 PM
Welcome to the forum Secretwoods.

rips31
04-18-2007, 08:06 PM
kinda sad. there was a school shooting at a virginia law school back in 2002, or so. the way the shooter was finally subdued? students got their guns from their cars and held the shooter at gunpoint, while other students held him down. sad that schools are 'gun free' zones, which leads to these things.

btown02
04-18-2007, 08:16 PM
sad that schools are 'gun free' zones, which leads to these things.
The two Colleges I take classes at are also LE training centers, so there are more guns there than at the Mall. :)

rips31
04-18-2007, 08:24 PM
bleh. i have 2 offices for work. one is in downtown sf, at the departmental headquarters building. the other is in another part of town. i tend to spend more time at my secondary office, but still maintain a cube at the downtown office.

today i get a call from my supervisor telling me that i need to take down the cubicle 'decorations' from my downtown office. apparently, due to the 'sensitivity' of recent events at va tech, my range silhouettes were deemed offencive and generated complaints to human resources and my dept head.

i guess we're now a nation of cowards. instead of talking to me directly and asking me to do so, they had to go to hr. lame. guess who's gonna file a complaint against anyone w/pix of kids, fish, animals, wives, etc. lol...since i'm single, i deem pix of families offencive, as i don't participate in that lifestyle. i don't fish or own pets, as that constitutes cruelty to animals. anything else i should complain about? :mad: :soap: :eek: :lmao: :flag:

btown02
04-18-2007, 08:28 PM
anything else i should complain about?
Nope, sounds like you covered it all.

Medula Oblongata
04-18-2007, 08:37 PM
i guess we're now a nation of cowards. instead of talking to me directly and asking me to do so, they had to go to hr. lame.

Welcome to "whistle blower" America, where you can complain about anything, make anyone's life miserable, and not have to let anyone know who you are. Just like a cockroach, these people hide in the dark, steal what they can, and then scatter when the light of truth is shown upon them.


guess who's gonna file a complaint against anyone w/pix of kids, fish, animals, wives, etc. lol...since i'm single, i deem pix of families offencive, as i don't participate in that lifestyle. i don't fish or own pets, as that constitutes cruelty to animals. anything else i should complain about? :mad: :soap: :eek: :lmao: :flag:

Yeah, same sex couples making out in the break room... OOPS!!! I forgot, you're in the "Gay Bay," where anything aberant is "the norm," and anything normal is "an attack" by a racist bigoted homophobe.

Need an assistant??? I'm looking for a good argument, and I have nothing to do during the day but phone in complaints... :D

Capers
04-18-2007, 08:54 PM
You pretty much have to keep your wall's bare to not offend anyone, but that will probably offend the poor guy that can't decorate his.

Megatron
04-18-2007, 09:00 PM
You pretty much have to keep your wall's bare to not offend anyone, but that will probably offend the poor guy that can't decorate his.

The day will come when no one will even speak to each other for fear of offending someone and possibly losing your job over it. :( :mad: :soap:

jshay
04-18-2007, 09:16 PM
Hey Rips,
When the going gets tough the tough go to Jacksons indoor range and help their new FiveSeveN forum buddies break the cherry on their NIB IOM ! Just got a fresh case of SS195 from CMMG so ya don't have to worry about bringing ammo. Putting holes in paper always makes me feel better. I'm planning a Sat. afternoon therapy session. Let me know... I need someone to help me pick up brass to send to MO, he has a new mouth to feed.

Solidarnosc
04-18-2007, 09:40 PM
There have been incidents with shootings in schools in Europe as well. In 2002 18 students were killed in Germany. In 1996 16 children were killed in the UK. Some students have been killed in Holland. It is not that it doesn't happen in other countries. Of course this does not make this less tragic but it puts things in a context.

Anyway my sincere condolences to the families and friends who lost relatives or friends in this tragedy.

Capers
04-18-2007, 09:49 PM
I think it was a shooting incident in northern ireland that prompted UK to pretty much do away with guns from their society.

I don't know if this can be considered the same since it was a group, but there was that take over of an elementary school in Russia that happened a few years back

Solidarnosc
04-19-2007, 02:44 PM
I think it was a shooting incident in northern ireland that prompted UK to pretty much do away with guns from their society.

I don't know if this can be considered the same since it was a group, but there was that take over of an elementary school in Russia that happened a few years back


I think it was the killing of 16 children in Dunblane Scotland in 1996 that pretty much banned guns in the UK. Athletes from the Olympic Shooting team had to go abroud to exercise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_Massacre

Megatron
04-19-2007, 03:03 PM
I think it was the killing of 16 children in Dunblane Scotland in 1996 that pretty much banned guns in the UK. Athletes from the Olympic Shooting team had to go abroud to exercise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_Massacre

You're right. It was that incident which lead to the UK gun ban. Ever since then, crime has skyrocketed over there in the UK. Unfortunately, they don't want to admit that their ban backfired.

Capers
04-19-2007, 03:13 PM
Yea, thats the one I was thinking of, sorry I am not good with specifics and locations but I knew it was a school shooting

rips31
04-19-2007, 05:49 PM
Nope, sounds like you covered it all.
lol...i forgot to mention that i might file a discrimination lawsuit/complaint. esp since i happen to be an asian male that likes firearms. hahaha! :cool:

rips31
04-19-2007, 05:50 PM
Hey Rips,
When the going gets tough the tough go to Jacksons indoor range and help their new FiveSeveN forum buddies break the cherry on their NIB IOM ! Just got a fresh case of SS195 from CMMG so ya don't have to worry about bringing ammo. Putting holes in paper always makes me feel better. I'm planning a Sat. afternoon therapy session. Let me know... I need someone to help me pick up brass to send to MO, he has a new mouth to feed.
hey dood. about what time? i've gotta help a friend build his kali-legal, self-loading sporting rifle. not sure what time that will be, tho. i'm always up for shooting.

btown02
04-19-2007, 06:03 PM
i'm always up for shooting.
Anytime the ammo is free. :)

Sniperjoe
04-19-2007, 09:45 PM
in some NY paper i was reading it was making the glock 19 seem like an evil militaristic weapon, it was a segment saying "facts about the Glock 19" it said things like it fires in bursts and of course its "evil" high cap. clips bent on nothing but destruction, also the grand communist leader bloomberg is calling for a coillition of anti gun mayors. Christ i hate anti gun people so much.

btown02
04-19-2007, 09:49 PM
Read post #71 Sniper.

Capers
04-20-2007, 12:06 AM
Clinton said on larry king that it wasn't the gun laws fault, they are working as intended it was the failure of the mental health system to succesfully input data showing that the shooter was mentally defective

btown02
04-20-2007, 11:07 AM
Twentyfive years murder free in "Gun Town USA".

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55288

Cyberfly
04-20-2007, 11:34 AM
Twentyfive years murder free in "Gun Town USA".

Trust me, I've found that almost ALL anti-gunners HATE, nay, DESPISE the 'Kennesaw Experiment'. They claim that it couldn't happen anywhere else except a peaceful little town like that.
They absolutely hate facts that counter their feelings...

jmz5
04-20-2007, 12:45 PM
POSTED: 11:25 a.m. EDT, April 20, 2007
By Ted Nugent
Special to CNN

WACO, Texas (CNN) -- Zero tolerance, huh? Gun-free zones, huh? Try this on for size: Columbine gun-free zone, New York City pizza shop gun-free zone, Luby's Cafeteria gun-free zone, Amish school in Pennsylvania gun-free zone and now Virginia Tech gun-free zone.

Anybody see what the evil Brady Campaign and other anti-gun cults have created? I personally have zero tolerance for evil and denial. And America had best wake up real fast that the brain-dead celebration of unarmed helplessness will get you killed every time, and I've about had enough of it.

Nearly a decade ago, a Springfield, Oregon, high schooler, a hunter familiar with firearms, was able to bring an unfolding rampage to an abrupt end when he identified a gunman attempting to reload his .22-caliber rifle, made the tactical decision to make a move and tackled the shooter.

A few years back, an assistant principal at Pearl High School in Mississippi, which was a gun-free zone, retrieved his legally owned Colt .45 from his car and stopped a Columbine wannabe from continuing his massacre at another school after he had killed two and wounded more at Pearl.

At an eighth-grade school dance in Pennsylvania, a boy fatally shot a teacher and wounded two students before the owner of the dance hall brought the killing to a halt with his own gun.

More recently, just a few miles up the road from Virginia Tech, two law school students ran to fetch their legally owned firearm to stop a madman from slaughtering anybody and everybody he pleased. These brave, average, armed citizens neutralized him pronto.

My hero, Dr. Suzanne Gratia Hupp, was not allowed by Texas law to carry her handgun into Luby's Cafeteria that fateful day in 1991, when due to bureaucrat-forced unarmed helplessness she could do nothing to stop satanic George Hennard from killing 23 people and wounding more than 20 others before he shot himself. Hupp was unarmed for no other reason than denial-ridden "feel good" politics.

She has since led the charge for concealed weapon upgrade in Texas, where we can now stop evil. Yet, there are still the mindless puppets of the Brady Campaign and other anti-gun organizations insisting on continuing the gun-free zone insanity by which innocents are forced into unarmed helplessness. Shame on them. Shame on America. Shame on the anti-gunners all.

No one was foolish enough to debate Ryder truck regulations or ammonia nitrate restrictions or a "cult of agriculture fertilizer" following the unabashed evil of Timothy McVeigh's heinous crime against America on that fateful day in Oklahoma City. No one faulted kitchen utensils or other hardware of choice after Jeffrey Dahmer was caught drugging, mutilating, raping, murdering and cannibalizing his victims. Nobody wanted "steak knife control" as they autopsied the dead nurses in Chicago, Illinois, as Richard Speck went on trial for mass murder.

Evil is as evil does, and laws disarming guaranteed victims make evil people very, very happy. Shame on us.

Already spineless gun control advocates are squawking like chickens with their tiny-brained heads chopped off, making political hay over this most recent, devastating Virginia Tech massacre, when in fact it is their own forced gun-free zone policy that enabled the unchallenged methodical murder of 32 people.

Thirty-two people dead on a U.S. college campus pursuing their American Dream, mowed-down over an extended period of time by a lone, non-American gunman in illegal possession of a firearm on campus in defiance of a zero-tolerance gun law. Feel better yet? Didn't think so.

Who doesn't get this? Who has the audacity to demand unarmed helplessness? Who likes dead good guys?

I'll tell you who. People who tramp on the Second Amendment, that's who. People who refuse to accept the self-evident truth that free people have the God-given right to keep and bear arms, to defend themselves and their loved ones. People who are so desperate in their drive to control others, so mindless in their denial that they pretend access to gas causes arson, Ryder trucks and fertilizer cause terrorism, water causes drowning, forks and spoons cause obesity, dialing 911 will somehow save your life, and that their greedy clamoring to "feel good" is more important than admitting that armed citizens are much better equipped to stop evil than unarmed, helpless ones.

Pray for the families of victims everywhere, America. Study the methodology of evil. It has a profile, a system, a preferred environment where victims cannot fight back. Embrace the facts, demand upgrade and be certain that your children's school has a better plan than Virginia Tech or Columbine. Eliminate the insanity of gun-free zones, which will never, ever be gun-free zones. They will only be good guy gun-free zones, and that is a recipe for disaster written in blood on the altar of denial. I, for one, refuse to genuflect there.

Medula Oblongata
04-20-2007, 03:26 PM
POSTED: 11:25 a.m. EDT, April 20, 2007
By Ted Nugent
Special to CNN

WACO, Texas (CNN) -- ...

Turning off monitor...

Sorry, Nugent has lost all credibility as far as I'm concerned, and every time he opens his mouth, I'm reminded of a stupid, south Arkansas hillbilly.. You know the one's I'm talking about. You see them on camera after a tornado has come through.. No shirt, a hairnet, and screaming about how "the tornado took away my trailerhome," as he's sippin' on a PBR and shootin' at coons' crossing the street.

cchristrules60
04-21-2007, 11:26 PM
I am starting grad school this summer and I have already decided that I do not care about the ccw policy of my school; if it even has one. My carry pistol is small and concealed so I will just have to make real sure that it stays concealed.

Also I have decided that I am going to carry just about everywhere except for places that I can get arrested; banks, pro ballgames, prison, jail, airhocky tournaments, an the like. :)

Capers
04-21-2007, 11:35 PM
Just curious of your school and major your heading into cchrist

btown02
04-21-2007, 11:48 PM
Also I have decided that I am going to carry just about everywhere except for places that I can get arrested; banks, pro ballgames, prison, jail, airhocky tournaments, an the like.
Be careful, there are a lot of States that have Colleges on that list of places you can be arrested for CCW.

Medula Oblongata
04-22-2007, 01:13 AM
Be careful, there are a lot of States that have Colleges on that list of places you can be arrested for CCW.
Correct.

VA Tech was one of those places.

For the sake of argument, lets say the situation was personalized.

You are 21 years old. You have just left the Navy after 4 long years serving your nation. The first thing you do as a responsible citizen after returning home is aquire a CCW license. You want to use your GI Bill, so you register at your local Community College. As you register, you discover that the College prevents you from legally carrying a CCW.

Do you:

1. Leave your weapon at home knowing that campus security will 'take care of you;'

or

2. Keep your CCW weapon concealed but carry it anyway.

Capers
04-22-2007, 09:35 AM
To correct you MO at VT you don't get arrested for CCW, you just get escorted off of campus and face possible expulsion. Only campus in VA where you can get arrested that I know of is Virginia Commonwealth University, which is located downtown Richmond

Medula Oblongata
04-22-2007, 10:04 AM
I wasn't speaking of VT in specific, but Universities in general.

Most schools are non-CCW zones and carrying will land you in the pokey.

The question still remains. What do you do?

I vote for being alive to appear in court.

cchristrules60
04-22-2007, 10:32 PM
Capers, It is a small private school, Campbell University. My grad work is in school Counseling. I know that once I start to work at a school then I am definetly not going to carry but one will always be in my truck. And I will tell no one about it!

Esteves
04-23-2007, 01:15 AM
...tell no one about it!
Thought to ponder: The whole world's mad but thee and me, and I'm not so sure about thee...
How about Ben Franklin: Three can keep a secret, if...
Or a Russioan proverb: Зря не болтай у телефона - болтун находка для шпиона

cchristrules60
04-23-2007, 11:49 AM
Thought to ponder: The whole world's mad but thee and me, and I'm not so sure about thee...

Not sure if I follow.

Medula Oblongata
04-23-2007, 02:15 PM
He's saying you can't trust anyone to keep your secrets.

In other words, don't tell a soul if you carry, not even your best friend.

cchristrules60
04-23-2007, 04:04 PM
Thanks MO, and I agree.

Megatron
04-23-2007, 07:48 PM
Professor fired for Va. Tech discussion

www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18275938/?GT1=9246

m1p90
04-23-2007, 10:12 PM
OH. We wouldn't want people thinking they are resposible for their OWN safety would we?!?!

Medula Oblongata
04-23-2007, 10:50 PM
WAIT A MINUTE!!!

The professor was fired for challenging the students to think a different way!?!

I thought that was what professors were supposed to do! Challenge the student to think of new things, to think new ways.

What a bunch of turds!

Makes me want to start my own Pro-2A college..

Anyone want to invest? :D

m1p90
04-23-2007, 11:10 PM
TSK TSK TSK. oooooh M.O. We all know colleges are for molding minds to a particular point of view! Anything that is concurrent to that is forbidden.
now.... repeat after me....
1. The U.S. sucks and is responsible for all the bloodshed in the world.
2. The war in Iraq is lost.
3. Guns are the cause of all the violence in the world.
4. George Bush is the Devil.
5. The U.S. is causing Global Warming.
6. The U.S. deserves to be blown up for.... "fill in the blank".

seriously,
Rome collapsed from within.... and I'm afraid we are at that point too.

StormWrangler
04-24-2007, 01:59 AM
VT shooting "Clips" possibly bought on eBay! Want to buy a firearm without a background check? Just go to a gun show where it is rampant!!!!! What crappy reporting...

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/23/gun.loophole/index.html?eref=rss_topstories

ctyatty
05-07-2007, 10:04 PM
jeez "non ccw zones" would be disastrous for female students given the prevalence of rapes on campus, it's practically an invitation.


I don't think this a very good reason, most of the "rape" stats come from feminists pushing the "against their will" type deal. She's drunk, he's drunk, they have sex but it's the girl who did not "consent" therefore it's rape. Well maybe he was too drunk to "consent." This is just one more way to "empower" women, after the fact I really didn't want to - so the guy is kicked out of school, prosecuted or .....

A corollary to the Duke lacrosse case where a psycho stripper aided by a political whore prosecutor almost ruined several young men's lives.

Be careful when you look at these statistics - lots of agenda driving that bus.

Medula Oblongata
05-07-2007, 11:38 PM
There is lost of agenda dealing with rape statistics on college campuses. In fact, I recall a feminist group at UC Berkley a few years ago that took the ID photo's of all the men enrolled that semester and created flyers with those photo's, and a caption of "BEWARE - POTENTIAL RAPIST"

That said and statistics aside, there is a greater probability of a female being violently raped walking alone while on a college campus, than off. Has it anything to do with the absense of guns? I doubt it, there is just a higher concentration of 'entitled' people who haven't had to learn restraint, responsibility, or integrity. Spend 5 minutes in any Greek House on campus and you will see what I mean, or better yet, go to any school sponsored activity.. "Student Protests" are also a good place to see 'young minds' getting the most of their education.

Poseidon5
05-08-2007, 12:00 AM
In fact, I recall a feminist group at UC Berkley a few years ago that took the ID photo's of all the men enrolled that semester and created flyers with those photo's, and a caption of "BEWARE - POTENTIAL RAPIST"


i do believe that i may have been offended by that... had i been one of them. rape is a serious action, and being called a "potential rapist" is not anything i believe anyone would like to be labeled.

young minds putting thier education to work indeed.

jmz5
05-08-2007, 12:07 AM
I would be more than a little upset if I had found posters like that with my photo on them.

Capers
05-08-2007, 12:14 AM
couldn't they be sued for slander? or is it that they can't prove they aren't a potential rapist?

Medula Oblongata
05-08-2007, 01:03 AM
How do you proove you aren't a potential rapist? Or how do you proove one is?

Slander, no. Slander is spoken. Libel is written. Defamation of character perhaps? Dunno. Regardless, I think that the law requires you show actual damages, more than hurt feelings anyway. If one was refused employment, service in a restaraunt, etc. because of the posters, well perhaps then one would have standing to sue.

merlin83221
05-08-2007, 01:55 AM
um dangerous topic but you could win against it. Big thing is if you are labeld as a rapist you can lose everything, so if you a potential one that means that they need to do everything to not allow you to be one aka losing your life. Interesting thing tough rape by females is going up, mostly adult females raping younge boys. Who knows that the man isnt being taken advantage of. But this is off topic.

jmz5
05-08-2007, 09:35 AM
Yep, look at Kirsten Kinley, I graduated high school with her sister and she baby sat my cousins when they were younger. She sure did put her family here through a lot of grief with those incidents.

Medula Oblongata
05-08-2007, 10:04 AM
Who's Kirsten Kinley?

Medula Oblongata
05-08-2007, 10:07 AM
Never mind, I used the 'search' button [google]. Doesn't look that hot to me.

jmz5
05-08-2007, 10:10 AM
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/howard/bal-teacher0216,0,2468612.story?track=rss

Teacher accused of sex abuse
Howard County woman charged with abusing boy, 15
By John-John Williams IV
Sun Reporter
Originally published February 16, 2007, 10:27 PM EST

What police say started as a series of inappropriate computer chats and text messages between a female Howard County teacher and a 15-year-old boy led to sexual encounters two years ago that came to light this week and resulted in criminal charges being filed against her.
Kirsten Ann Kinley, 27, became the county's third teacher since January to be charged with multiple sex offenses involving a minor. Police said they began to investigate Kinley on Monday after the boy divulged the encounters to his therapist, who was legally required to tell authorities.

Kinley, of the 7500 block of Murray Hill Road in Columbia, was arrested Thursday after turning herself in to police. She was charged with two counts of third-degree sex offense, two counts of fourth-degree sex offense and two counts of solicitation of a minor.

Kinley was later released on $75,000 bond Thursday and remains on paid administrative leave from her job as a special-education teacher at Marriotts Ridge High School in Marriottsville.

Kinley has worked as a special-education teacher in the top-performing Howard school system since 2002. At the time of the incidents, she worked at Hammond Middle School in Laurel. She has never taught her accuser or worked in his school, according to the school system.

Police say the two were introduced through one of his friends and engaged in sexual acts on two occasions -- on New Year's Eve 2004 and once again in January 2005. The two met each time at Kinley's apartment, according to police. The boy was 15 years old when the encounters occurred, police said.

Last week, a Howard County grand jury indicted Alan Meade Beier, 52, a chemistry and physics teacher at River Hill High School, and Joseph Samuel Ellis, 25, a history and government teacher at Glenelg High School, on sexual misconduct charges in separate incidents involving students. Ellis and Beier, who were both arrested in January, remain on paid administrative leave.

According to court documents, Kinley's accuser told police that they chatted through computer instant messaging in early December 2004. Kinley asked him if "he was a virgin and then asked him to have sex with her," the documents said.

The boy also told police that Kinley warned him not to tell anyone about what they talked about or what they were going to do.

On Dec. 31, 2004, the boy told authorities, Kinley picked him up near his home and they went to her apartment, where they engaged in sexual intercourse. Afterward, the teen told police, he did not have contact with Kinley for several days "due to school work." They then met a second time at Kinley's apartment and had sex, according to court papers.

Police said they have recovered two e-mails -- with attached photos -- that Kinley sent to the boy on Dec. 23, 2004.

A search warrant of Kinley's home yielded a desktop computer, a Webcam, and a laptop.

Technology is playing a greater role in sexual abuse cases, said T. Wayne Kirwan, spokesman for the Howard County state's attorney's office.

In the other cases, Ellis is accused of exchanging inappropriate material through e-mail and text messages and Beier is accused of using a digital camera to photograph a student without clothes.

"Modern technology has enabled the police and prosecutors to allow them to pursue an electronic trail," Kirwan said.

Kinley could not be reached for comment at her Columbia apartment and did not return several messages on her voicemail seeking comment.

B.C. Rowan, a downstairs neighbor who said she has watched Kinley's cat when she was out of town, said she couldn't believe the charges. "She's a wonderful girl," said Rowan, adding that Kinley would take her out to dinner in return for the cat watching duties. "She'd be the last person I would ever think would do anything like that."

Howard County Superintendent Sydney L. Cousin said that there are more than 4,000 teachers in the system and that the recent arrests are isolated.

"This shows that we have a system that works," Cousin said. "When we have people that come forward, these charges are investigated."

Cousin said there are safeguards in place -- criminal background checks of job applicants and mandatory annual training of all teachers warning against inappropriate behavior with students -- to protect students.

At Marriotts Ridge High School, where Kinley had worked since it opened in 2005, students and parents were informed Friday afternoon of Kinley's arrest through an e-mail from Principal Patrick J. Saunderson.
Kinley was the adviser to the sophomore class and to Poms, a competitive dance group that performs during football and basketball halftime shows.

Courtney Watson, a Howard County Council member whose daughter is a member of Kinley's dance team, said she was shocked and disappointed by the allegations. "She volunteered to coach the team when no one else would," said Watson, who is also a former school board chairman.

"She proved to be a dedicated staff member. My experiences with her were always positive," she said. "It's a shock."

In his letter, Saunderson said that "while it is never easy to come forward and report concerns related to peers or staff, we encourage our students to speak with an administrator or other trusted staff members whenever they suspect any wrongdoing."

Kinley's arrest follows a series of well-publicized incidents -- both nationally and locally -- involving female teachers.

In May 2001, Kimberly L. Merson, a 24-year-old substitute teacher and cheerleading coach at Carroll County's Francis Scott Key High School, was arrested on multiple sex-related charges involving eight male students. She was sentenced to 18 months in jail after she pleaded guilty to four counts of felony sexual child abuse

Four days later, Tracie L. Mokry, a 21-year-old student teacher at Francis Scott Key, was arrested and charged with felony child abuse after she invited seven male students to her mother's Westminster home for a party. Prosecutors dropped the abuse charges and she was sentenced to probation after she pleaded guilty to a charge of allowing an under-age high school student to drink alcohol at the party.

Nationally, Mary Kay Letourneau made headlines in 1997 when she was arrested after having an affair with a 13-year-old student. The Seattle-area teacher eventually married him and they had two children.

Female teachers have traditionally been viewed with less contempt than males accused of sex crimes involving students, said Dr. Alan J. Lipman, a clinical psychologist based in Washington.

"This is caused in part by very long-standing cultural attitudes that we have toward sexuality in women and in men," said Lipman, who also has a law degree from Georgetown University.

"There is a tendency to sometimes say 'what a lucky guy,'" Lipman said of the male students involved with a female teacher. "It is important to remember that we do not know the state of mind of the male who underwent this experience."

Lipman said that in the Letourneau case, the student -- and eventual husband, Vili Fualaau -- suffered from depression and substance abuse.

"It is clear that he had a very negative reaction to this relationship," Lipman said. "While this may not be the case in every circumstance, reactions to abuse will differ depending on the individual involved. People shouldn't jump to easy stereotypes about an issue where an adult has authority over a minor."

jmz5
05-08-2007, 10:11 AM
Never mind, I used the 'search' button [google]. Doesn't look that hot to me.
She never was hot, but her sister is. :)

Cyberfly
05-08-2007, 11:11 AM
I'm sure, using the feminist mindset, that any man with either a penis or fingers COULD be a potential rapist. Had I been one of those male students, I would have put up my own posters using THEIR logic. Caution: Potential Prostitute, or Potential HIV Carrier or...well, use your imagination.

smeman
05-08-2007, 11:18 AM
Good call. And the schools hands would be tied. The most they could do is require that both sets of posters be removed.Genious.