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btown02
02-16-2007, 12:58 PM
I know what gun I won't buy.........Steyr-Mannlicher's.........they are not allowed to bid on US

contracts, and I don't need them either !!!!

This article is from the Wall Street Journal Editorial page.

REVIEW & OUTLOOK

Iran's Smoking Guns
Now Austrian sniper rifles show up in Iraq.

Friday, February 16, 2007 12:01 a.m.

Following the weekend intelligence disclosures about Iranian-supplied weapons killing GIs in Iraq, we predicted Tuesday (http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110009662). that "a large part of Washington will pretend the evidence doesn't exist, or suggest the intelligence isn't proven, or claim that it's all the Bush Administration's fault for 'bullying' Iran." Sure enough, President Bush faced a barrage of questions Wednesday wondering whether senior Iranian leaders were really aware of the weapons transfers, whether he was using "faulty intelligence," and whether the disclosures were part of a strategy designed to "provoke Iran."

So here is the state of our public discourse: American military officials present prima facie evidence of Iranian weapons implicated in killing 170 U.S. soldiers and wounding 600 more, and Washington's main concern is not for the GIs but in refighting the last intelligence war.

Well, here's an item that doesn't seem to have been manufactured by Dick Cheney. According to a report in Britain's Daily Telegraph, U.S. forces in Baghdad have recently discovered 100 high-powered sniper rifles made by Austrian gun-maker Steyr-Mannlicher. The .50-caliber Steyr can accurately fire an armor-piercing round at a range of 1,500 meters. The weapon is good against Humvees, helicopters and body armor.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/images/storyend_dingbat.gif

In 2004, Iran purchased some 800 Steyrs, allegedly for use against drug traffickers. At the time, both U.S. and British officials urged the Austrian government to bar the $15 million sale, fearing the weapons would fall into enemy hands. Former Austrian Chancellor Wolfang Schüssel thought otherwise, and let the deal go forward. To better grease the skids, then-Steyr-Mannlicher CEO Wolfgang Fürlinger made the case that the weapons were basically harmless and that Tehran had signed "end-user certificates" guaranteeing they would not be re-sold, according to the German newsweekly Der Spiegel.

Today, the Austrian government pleads that the sale had been "checked very thoroughly," and that "what happened to the weapons . . . is the responsibility of the Iranians"--which prompts the question of why the Austrians would have bothered with the end-user certificates. The Bush Administration took a less cavalier view and in 2005 banned Steyr-Mannlicher from bidding for U.S. government contracts.

It remains to be confirmed whether the serial numbers on the Steyrs found in Iraq match those from the 2004 sale--if they do, it ought to prompt a top-to-bottom review of all Austrian military contracts. Meantime, is it too much to expect American journalists and Members of Congress to devote as much skepticism to Iran's motives and behavior as they do to Mr. Bush's?
Copyright © 2007 Dow Jones & Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved.

jmz5
02-16-2007, 01:03 PM
Wow, they should have known better than to sell to them, They were never on my list, but now they will never be on my list. :mad:

healthcommando
02-16-2007, 01:12 PM
Granted, some people won't buy certain guns just for the fact that they may have been used to fight their country or family or whatever. That goes from mosin-nagants to ak's to brown bess muskets...I'm not in that camp.
Everyone is free to market their wares, or should be. A manufacturer should not be held liable for their product in the US or abroad. Caveat emptor.
I have had Steyr and will buy them again.

muab
02-16-2007, 02:31 PM
Understand the Caveat Emptor idea, and I certainly like some Steyr weapons, but there is a difference between selling a weapon to someone and it ending up harming an ally, and someone selling a radical anti-ally enemy and then shrugging when 100+ Americans pay the price.

I had a few associates killed a couple weeks ago because a helicopter got nailed in Baghdad. I wonder if these weapons had something to do with it?

Selling any product using a modicum of responsibility is a reaasonable expectation I think.

Go onto youtube and watch the "Juba sniper" video (if you want to get sick and pissed). It is a montage of insurgent sniper kills on US troops. It is hard to maintain any sort of calm after watching it.

Respectfully,

M

Medula Oblongata
02-16-2007, 05:28 PM
Didn't Congress pass a law last year entitled "Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms," that prevented suits against a firearms manufacturer based upon the unlawful use of their lawfully sold product?

So if we can't hold a company liable who markets their weapons to gang-bangers (who kill a lot more than 100 innocent Americans every year), and make no mistake, they absolutely market to their best customers, why would be hold Steyer liable for doing the same exact thing?

I don't like the fact that they sold anything to Iran, I think that country needs to starve to death. But in the same token I don't like the double standard. How many of you boycott S&W because their snub-nosed revolvers were the criminals favorite for years. How many boycott Glock because of the same thing? How about Hi-Point (All BS aside, its a product that fires everytime, and is all that a good number of the poor can afford for a home defense gun)?

Personally I have been uninterested in any Steyer weapon since the AUG was banned, and even then, I wasn't terribly interested. I shot one in Germany some years ago and it never really tickled my fancy..

Regardless, it does chap my ass that they would use the excuse of 'end user certificate' to justify their sale, instead of just saying 'their cash was green.'

susan28
02-16-2007, 06:38 PM
even if Iran *didn't* supply them, and even if it *was*a Fedco ploy to curry support for an attack on Iran (nothing would surprise me with those guys and if it was we'll probably never know), the fact is that Iran themselves has sworn a fatwa against us and Israel, so supplying Iran at *all* *is* supplying an enemy, at least until they stop being haters. so either way it was uncool. it would be like telling someone you wanted to kill their best friend and then asking them to sell you a gun.

Medula Oblongata
02-16-2007, 06:52 PM
The difference is that Iran and Austria aren't at war, nor is there a fatwa against Austria. When it comes right down to it, the companies and countries that supply Iran with anything that can be used by their military, from fabrics and tea, up to and including electrical components and circuit breakers, are supplying the enemy.

We won't break Islama-naziism by military force, any more than we could break the Soviets. We will break them financially, or not at all. Our current felons in office, I mean elected representatives, lack the will of Reagan to do just that.

abpt1
02-16-2007, 07:08 PM
I never liked there style anyway so f styer!

but as for Israel the whole world thinks we are there keepers and that we hold there leash.
Its true so"the fact is that Iran themselves has sworn a fatwa against us and Israel"
if we distance our selfs from suppling israels all the wepons they need or just want world view might be different but now after the past 6 years it will always be us and them!

so even that i will not buy styer the fact is it dont matter who buys there guns. They will have millions of ak47's to or some thing to take there place .You guys talk all the sht you want but we have done the same sht given Iraqies and afgans guns to shoot russans 'iran contra' ollie north ya know :rolleyes:


I just think it is one more step to gun control.....

ITS all B.S. games.........

in short no matter how i dislike it i agree with M.O.

muab
02-16-2007, 07:11 PM
All excellent points.

I suppose I just want to delete the fellow in Iran who made the decision to send the .50's into Iraq. If anyone has his address, drop me a line and I will see what else can be done.

;)

Anyone in Steyr associated with this should at least be a tweence apologetic I would think.

susan28
02-16-2007, 07:26 PM
it's true, us attacking them just makes martyrs out of them and attracts people to the movement who wouldn't otherwise be against us. even justified attacks usually work against the attacker in the propaganda mill... heck, look how 911 was used by our *ahem* elected officials to play us like loots.. i mean lutes..

still, even though Iran hasn't picked on Austria, they're supposed to be our allies.

i remember once i was spinning at this club that totally screwed me over (i'll spare you the details) and this person who called himself my friend stepped right in and filled my shoes. he said, "well, they screwed *you* over, not me". which was true, but he was enabling them to profit from their treachery - rewarding them for it by allowing them to continue, which they couldn't have without him because he was the only other person in town then who played similar music. they'd have had to cancel the night afterward.

i never spoke to him again.

Medula Oblongata
02-16-2007, 07:36 PM
What is 'spinning?'

And how does played music factor into it?

I am a loyalist. When a pal-o-mine gets the shaft, I tend to disassociate myself with the group that did the screwin'. I look at it with the knowledge that if they did it to someone else, they WILL do it to me if'n they get a chance.

Yes, our pubic officials (no mis-spelling there) played us like musical instruments after 911 causing me to think that they had something 'hidden in the wings' for just such an incident. Its not paranoia, its simply an inconvienent truth. They could not have planned all they did in such a short period of time if they hadn't already had it in the works. Was the 911 attacks known to the intelligence community? Much evidence points to 'yes.' Did the government allow it to happen (much the same was as FDR knew about the planned Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor) for the sole purpose of drawing us into a war? More and more evidence is pointing to it being a possibility.

I'm not much of a conspiracy theorist, but I am also not afraid to call a 'spade' a spade.

I feel used and fooled... and I'm bitter about it.

EDIT: Austria is not allied to the US, nor are then a member state of NATO.

susan28
02-16-2007, 07:40 PM
oh, i don't think it should be *illegal* for Austria to supply Iran, i just don't like it and think boycotts are fair game.

gawd iran contra.. overthrowing a duly elected government, and against a law that was passed *specifically* to prevent it. we shoulda handed 'em over to the sandinistas..

abpt1
02-16-2007, 07:41 PM
What do we have if we are not at least loyal?

Medula Oblongata
02-16-2007, 07:41 PM
Again, what is 'spinning,' and what does music have to do with it? :)

abpt1
02-16-2007, 07:46 PM
it's some kinda exercise the mother inlaw does it

susan28
02-16-2007, 07:46 PM
hehehe "spinning" means dj-ing. i'm a dj who plays "underground" (non-top-40) music. this was another dj i used to be buds with at the time who stepped in to fill my shoes after they severly renigged on a contract with me and i walked. i told the friend about it and he beat a path to their door. there was no-one else at the time who could have replaced me but him. so he thwarted my attempt to punish them for their deceit.

so the connection is they're both "friends helping the enemy" scenarios.

abpt1
02-16-2007, 07:47 PM
wow i never though you were that cool lol

2/13/1975
city kidd i know what spinning is

Medula Oblongata
02-16-2007, 07:54 PM
Hmmm.. sounds like your pal needs a severe whoopin' for doin' you like that.

I went to a few rave parties a number of years back while home on leave.. Chicago, Las Vegas, Los Angeles.. Really loud, with lots of really drunk (and high) people. It wasn't really entertaining to me. First was the 2 hour drive around town buying 'tickets' that had a map to another 'ticket' seller, who after about 5 you got the map to the party. Then was the inevidible search, the painfully loud music (the type that left you tone deaf for a week), and the pools of vomit..

abpt1
02-16-2007, 07:59 PM
Yah i am not much for that anymore i grew out of the whole party all night thing......maybe he needs a alley biscut (brick) works too :eek:

susan28
02-16-2007, 08:22 PM
ahhh, takes me back.. my rave days were in SF, though, they know how to tune a system out there to shake the walls without hurting the ears.. LA's into that screechy stuff.

and ya apb i'm a sleeper, like my car :) (pic of 'er here somewhere on the "rides" thread).

"seem less, be more.."

abpt1
02-16-2007, 08:47 PM
I hear ya........not me i am the type of guy that put nos on the bike that already does 180mph while these guys were saving the free world in the army I was burning up tires and tag'in everything in sight .......most people hate me :cry:

healthcommando
02-16-2007, 11:43 PM
A drunk driver, driving a BMW, collided with my dad, who was driving a Harley Davidson motorcycle. My dad was killed.
Who should I boycott? The booze company, the german car manufacturer, or harley davidson for allowing my dad to be an available target?

abpt1
02-16-2007, 11:48 PM
sorry to hear that you lost your dad........but i am glad you see our point.

Megatron
02-16-2007, 11:57 PM
We won't break Islama-naziism by military force, any more than we could break the Soviets. We will break them financially, or not at all. Our current felons in office, I mean elected representatives, lack the will of Reagan to do just that.

As long as we continue to buy oil from the Middle East, breaking them financially won't happen. Had the Dummycrats voted with the Republicans to open up the Arctic Wildlife Reserve in Alaska to drill for more oil, we would be in a better position to break them financially.

As we know now, Nazi Pelosi and her House Dummycrat minions along with a few RINO's (Republicans In Name Only) voted to pass an anti-surge resolution. The Senate is supposed to vote on a similar anti-surge resolution tomorrow.

muab
02-17-2007, 11:18 AM
I am not even a little bit sold on the fact of a conspiracy surrounding 9/11. Even in fahrenheit 9/11 doofus makes both points: Bush was an idiot totally blown out of the water and caught flat footed by the attacks, looking like a fool---and that he somehow knew in advance also. Everyone needs to pick one or the other.
I read the occasional conspiracy piece and I have yet to see one that really comes together in a convincing way.
Also, Susan, you make a number of great points (in many posts) but the idea that attacking them doesn't work is not really borne out in reality. It works better than any other historical method. The attack in Iraq actually worked quite well for certain purposes...just not for the purpose of stabilizing Iraq.
Everyone may recall that every expert on terrorism in the month after 9/11 said America would get hit again on our own soil within the next year or two...it has been almost 6 years and we haven't got hit again.
Take it from me, every Jihadist worth his sand is heading to Iraq or Afghanistan to take a crack at Americans where they are easier to get to. I would rather we fight them in Iraq rather than here. In Iraq we are on a war footing, and the collateral blows the hell out of someone else's country.

You may or may not be old enough to remember the US bombing of Libya. The USA bombed them after a year of monthly terrorist attacks by Libyan terrorists on Americans all around the world. EVERY news source and pundit said that bombing Libya was a mistake because it would just breed more hatred and terrorists etc...
We haven't had a significant attack by Libyans since then, and Qaddafi wears a dumb hat and sits in UN meetings instead of waving guns around and trying to kill Americans. We killed his son in that bombing BTW.

Aside from the stability of Iraq (which requires the cooperation of people who have ONLY been stabilized by terror for decades) the attacks on Iraq and Afghanistan have been wonderfully successful.

Medula Oblongata
02-17-2007, 06:33 PM
From personal experience in the sandbox, I will say that the only wonderfully spectacular thing to happen from our invasion was the relative lack of serious casualties on our side. Nothing else has gone according to plan.

Our politicians and upper eschelon military commanders lack the fortitude to do what is necessary to utterly destroy the insurgency. Since we haven't the stomach to follow General LeMay's doctrine, the only thing we can do is put them into the poor house. Stop importing their oil, stop giving them money. Severely punish any other country who aids them, and I mean with the harshest means available.

Iran wants to "help" Iraq? Well, they can do it 10 million people lighter..

Russia wants to "help" Iraq? They can do it without one single piece of grain from us, forever.

Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Egypt, etc., should they try and help, should be left to starve completely. Never again would they receive any aid of any kind. Let them face the stark reality of having to feed and clothe their own without any assistance.

Starve them out, then we'll see true progress in the middle east.

Here are my thoughts about how to deal with the insurgents within Iraq, I posted this last year.





WHAT TO DO?
1. Build thousands of Displaced Persons (DP) camps such as what were built in Germany after the war.
2. Drop leaflets over a town directing all residents to leave their homes without weapons and gather at the nearest DP camp for processing.
2a. Known terrorists will be detained and sent to GITMO.
2b. Persons without terrorist ties are finger printed, biometrically identified, and sent to another part of the country to build a new town and settle there.
3. All persons who have refused to surrender are considered enemy combatants and shot on site.
4. 2 weeks later another opportunity is offered for surrender. All who surrender are sent to interim POW camps where they are used as labor for building public works such as irrigation channels and waste-water treatment sites, clearing land-mines, digging oil wells, and repairing damaged infastructure.
5. B-52's from STRATCOM's Offut AFB in Omaha Nebraska are scrambled and in wave after wave, pound the city into sand.
6. When there are no standing structures, the US Army Combat Engineers use their D-8 Bulldozers to ensure that there is nothing living within the rubble.
7. Repeat as necessary with additional towns and cities.
It is my belief that after a few such demonstrations the populace as a whole will understand that it is not in their best interest to aid not abet terrorists. If they are slow learners.. Well, I guess the next generation will be a little smaller (and less able to carryout a genocidal agenda).


How will we be any different than them if we do this?

We'll be alive to atone for our sins.


Listen, folks. Whether or not you want to admit it, we are in a war for the survival of our race.. The American Race. We are not being attacked for any other reason than we are not muslim. It is the agenda of Islam to kill or convert the whole world, and govern us under the law of Sharia. I do not want my children to have to heed the call of the Imam to prayer or face execution.

I do not want my daughters to be killed for reading, writing, walking in public without their faces covered. I do not wish them to be traded as chattle, divorced for the pleasure of their husband, or stoned to death for his displeasure.

Islamic law is not compatible with the Constitution of the United States. Islamic law is not compatible with the laws of man. It is a totalitarian form of government that preys upon the ingorent masses, while creating a system of tyrany and opression

You can read the entire post here:http://fivesevenforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4246&highlight=religion+pieces

muab
02-17-2007, 09:31 PM
M.O.
I can't say I disagree strongly with any point you made. Certainly we have found time and again the method for beating Islamic insurgents (this has been going on since 1100 AD or so) is to be extremely thorough in destruction. Even Assad (who was another total waste of skin) knew in his own country of Syria when an Islamic insurgency rose up in the town of Hama, he leveled the town. It was a town of 300,000 people and there is no town there. I feel it was too extreme actually. M.O.'s plan is more humane.

From my own experience in the sandbox I would say you are correct that NOT MUCH has gone according to plan, but US forces have wiped a lot of Haji's from the earth who would have tried to get to us on our own soil if their meeting with Allah was not already arranged. In addition, I feel that process is ongoing. Jihadists from all sorts of Islamic countries are flooding Iraq and Afghanistan to play "kill an American" and at least the Americans there are in body armor, armed with air support and armored vehicles. For instance, the jackass in the mall in Utah would have lasted about ten minutes in Iraq and been ushered directly into the after life with no loss of American life.

It is true though, as you say MO, if we really truly want to win in Iraq, the gloves have to come off. And in this environment of political ass-covering and political correctness, it isn't likely to happen.

healthcommando
02-18-2007, 11:45 PM
abpt1;
my post up there was an analogy that was pointing out the hypocrisy of the "anti-Steyr people's" stance.
Steyr makes great guns, that can be used for good or bad, just like any other arms manufacturer, and I don't care if they sold directly to our current enemy/future friend, i'll still buy their products.
Did you really think my dad died? Thanks for the sympathy anyways!

muab
02-19-2007, 12:28 AM
Healthcommando,
I didn't post on the topic of what I thought was the tragic end of your father...but I was thinking that was on the level too.
Heh.

Glad it wasn't the real deal.

healthcommando
02-19-2007, 10:27 AM
No problem. By the way, even if there is disagreement on this, I still support everyone's right to choose NOT to buy a product of their choice.
What I am trying to say is that I will not use this topic to divide gun owners.
Happy shooting to y'all!