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View Full Version : Whats Your Take on NFA FEAR ?


Merc
01-27-2007, 11:55 AM
Not sure if this is the right section to post under, so Im sorry if its not.

Whats your take on all the people who are scared to death of going class III ?

I hear tons of people say " Man I would love to SBR, BUT then I'll be an that list, you know, I'll be one of the first they round up !".

What are they so afraid of ? Are they just lacking knowledge of Class III ?

Or are people really so afraid that they are paranoid ?

Whats your take ?

btown02
01-27-2007, 11:58 AM
Sounds like they have more problems going on than a fear of ATF. They might want to signup for some much needed therapy.

jmz5
01-27-2007, 12:00 PM
I would guess most people are paranoid because the lack the knowledge of class 3. If anyone has ever bought a gun, they are already on the "list".

Merc
01-27-2007, 12:01 PM
btown02,

Thanks for moving to right section, and yeah it does make ya wonder.

btown02
01-27-2007, 12:07 PM
You're welcome. I bought my first C3 in 1979 and several more since then. I have never had a problem with ATF and only one visit. They have always been nice and polite on the phone or in person. If a person follows the rules they will have nothing to worry about.

abpt1
01-27-2007, 12:19 PM
When they run you Driver lic number they can see all the guns you have bought for the last 15+ years before that the records are kinda bleak but since the computer era started anyway SO yes you are already on there list

btown02
01-27-2007, 12:36 PM
When they run you Driver lic number they can see all the guns you have bought for the last 15+ years before that the records are kinda bleak but since the computer era started anyway SO yes you are already on there list
How? When you buy a gun the dealer retains the form. It does not go anywhere.

Merc
01-27-2007, 12:52 PM
The only form that goes ,anywhere is one of the three for handguns, thats it.

One for the shop, one for the State Police, and one for the customer.

4473 stays at the shop.

btown02
01-27-2007, 01:07 PM
The only form that goes ,anywhere is one of the three for handguns, thats it.
One for the shop, one for the State Police, and one for the customer.
4473 stays at the shop.
Glad I live here. Nothing goes anywhere. :D

jmz5
01-27-2007, 02:34 PM
The only form that goes ,anywhere is one of the three for handguns, thats it.

One for the shop, one for the State Police, and one for the customer.

4473 stays at the shop.
That's how it works here also.

Fallschirmjaeger
01-27-2007, 03:27 PM
Perhaps it works differently in Reading than the rest of Pennsylvania, Jimz5?

Merc
01-27-2007, 03:58 PM
Fallschirmjaeger,

Sorry if Im reading your post wrong to Jimz5, but,I took it as where you buy guns they do it different ?

In the ENTIRE state of PA firearms purchase:

for a handgun, you have the 4473 & the State Police handgun form, for the handgun form 1-copy to the shop , 1-copy to the State Police , 1-copy to the customer.

For a rifle it only the 4473. The 4473 stays at the shop.

If any shops are doing it differently in PA, somethings wrong. :sheriff

As for Class III, thats a different story , as most know.

abpt1
01-27-2007, 04:25 PM
State law authorizes law enforcement to keep a record of every handgun sold or transferred in the state, but the state does not keep any records on the sale of rifles or shotguns but

On the application /record of sale

section E = firearm information make/model/ serial number/caliber/ lenght of barrel

All of this informatin is entered to the system



http://www.psp.state.pa.us/psp/cwp/view.asp?A=4&Q=173204

Merc
01-27-2007, 04:31 PM
application / record of sale for the handgun , yes, but basicly the state and ATF, have no idea what kind of long arm anyone is buying, just that they are buying somekind of long arm.

abpt1
01-27-2007, 04:41 PM
no i agree on the long gun issue

Merc
01-27-2007, 04:47 PM
Thats what I thought, just wasnt sure.

wetwrks
01-27-2007, 07:30 PM
Back to the original topic.
There are concerns that should something like Nazi Germany happen here then the ATF list would be the first group that would get rounded up. Frankly if something like that ever happens, your only chance would be to have items from that list. And a slim chance at that. Look to Ruby Ridge and places like that to see how it will play out. :beat:

Medula Oblongata
01-27-2007, 08:18 PM
Do you honestly think that NFA owners would be the first on the list of a "Getapo" or "Stasi" type agency??

First and foremost would be religious 'extremists', followed by political 'subversives' (which the vast majority of gun owners would rat out in a heartbeat), and then and only then would the government turn its eyes towards the gun owners. Seeing as though gun owners are very law abiding, the very vast majority would voluntarily turn in their guns if ordered to.

wetwrks
01-29-2007, 01:57 AM
Actually if you check the history, Nazi Germany went after the firearms first. Not just the NFAs but all weapons. The roundups came afterwards.

Medula Oblongata
01-29-2007, 02:07 AM
Not true.

They 'registered' firearms. They didn't round them up until after they invaded Poland, more than 6 years after rounding up the 'retards', gypsies, homsexuals, Jehovas witnesses, etc.

This country would do it the same way. Everyone 'hates' some other group and would help the government track them down, but 1/3 to 2/5ths of Americans are gun owners, so there would be little sympathy at first for going after such a large portion of the population. I would be more fearful of being a member of Rev. Phelps bunch than an NFA owner.

wetwrks
01-29-2007, 03:31 PM
enactment in 1928 by the liberal Weimar republic of Germany's first comprehensive gun control law

the Nazi seizure of power in 1933 was consolidated by massive searches and seizures of firearms from political opponents

non-Nazis throughout Germany were disarmed as “Communists.

At the same time, even more Nazis were armed by the government.

mere possession of firearms was evidence of the conspiracy

It is clear that firearms were being seized from persons of all types, not just “Communists.” For example, Wilhelm Willers, an apparently prominent citizen of Munich, complained to authorities that “the SA members took several things when they searched my apartment, such as several
bottles of mineral water and from my living room a box of cigarettes. A flashlight was lent, but not returned. I ask that my flashlight and the above-mentioned pistol which belongs to me personally be returned to me.


This is found here:
http://www.kentuckysip.homestead.com/files/Nazi_Firearms_Law_and_the_Disarming_of_the_German_Jews.htm

And again here:
http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/article-nazilaw.pdf

snw19
01-29-2007, 06:58 PM
The only form that goes ,anywhere is one of the three for handguns, thats it.
One for the shop, one for the State Police, and one for the customer.
4473 stays at the shop.
Glad I live here. Nothing goes anywhere.
That is not necessarily true. While reading about 4473's for/in a different thread, it said that FFL's have to keep their records for twenty years and if they give up their license, they have to turn in all the 4473's to the ATF. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Form_4473

Do you honestly think that NFA owners would be the first on the list of a "Getapo" or "Stasi" type agency??
What if Pelosi and Feinstein (types) become President and VP (and Dems control congress). They don't want ANYONE able to protect themselves, they'd prefer if we were all supported by the state and dependant on the government for everything.

Seeing as though gun owners are very law abiding,
Especially NFA owners!

the very vast majority would voluntarily turn in their guns if ordered to.
Hmm. Since there are a lot of gun owners in the USA, let's hope that they never allow it to get that far!!!

They 'registered' firearms.
As some states are now beginning to do.

This country would do it the same way. Everyone 'hates' some other group and would help the government track them down, but 1/3 to 2/5ths of Americans are gun owners, so there would be little sympathy at first for going after such a large portion of the population. I would be more fearful of being a member of Rev. Phelps bunch than an NFA owner.
I think it curious that you said, "at first"…
Randy Weaver may have been a 'subversive' but they used firearms as the reason to 'arrest' him. Besides, who's to say, in the eyes of the right-wing, the left-wing is subversive and vice versa.
This being a democracy, and all of us being so diverse, I can never see the nazi party (or others) gaining control of the government. But, as I mentioned earlier, the left would love to add more and more laws restricting gun ownership until a cap gun would be illegal and we would all have to rely on the government for all our well being and protection.

wetwrks
01-29-2007, 07:07 PM
But, as I mentioned earlier, the left would love to add more and more laws restricting gun ownership until a cap gun would be illegal and we would all have to rely on the government for all our well being and protection.


I have seen internal documents from an anti-gun group that would like to take it so far as to outlaw the wearing of cammies in public as it creates a violent mindset. They will stop at nothing to dominate the public.

snw19
01-29-2007, 07:19 PM
I have seen internal documents from an anti-gun group that would like to take it so far as to outlaw the wearing of cammies in public as it creates a violent mindset. They will stop at nothing to dominate the public.
Some of the putz I see wearing camouflage make me feel violent. Violently Ill!

btown02
01-29-2007, 07:21 PM
That is not necessarily true. While reading about 4473's for/in a different thread, it said that FFL's have to keep their records for twenty years and if they give up their license, they have to turn in all the 4473's to the ATF.

We were talking about at the time of the gun purchase. I'm not going to worry about something that might happen 20 years from now.

Medula Oblongata
01-29-2007, 07:47 PM
...Randy Weaver may have been a 'subversive' but they used firearms as the reason to 'arrest' him. Besides, who's to say, in the eyes of the right-wing, the left-wing is subversive and vice versa...

Incorrect.

Randy Weaver was arrested for illegally modifying a shotgun to SB status without a SOT. He broke the law, the Gov't came to arrest him, and he didn't feel like going to jail that day so he held the Gov't at bay until after they killed his family...

abpt1
01-29-2007, 09:38 PM
BATFE FAILS THE TEST!
By The Liberty Crew
Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership

You say you want “strict enforcement of existing gun laws.” Are you sure? Read what happened to John Glover.

John Glover learned gunsmithing on the job at a shop in North Carolina. He got involved buying parts kits and assembling rifles from the parts. He would buy all the parts and materials for about $500 and sell the assembled rifles, models that looked like Austrian-made FAL models, for $600-$700. Some of the FAL rifles contained foreign-made parts.

Somehow the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE) found out that Mr. Glover had made and sold these FAL rifles. As it happens, one of the firearms was an FAL STG 58, which had a three-position selector switch on the side plate that might suggest that the rifle was fully automatic.

The BATFE field agents supposedly checked several of Mr. Glover’s rifles and reported that six of them “field-tested positive as possibly being fully-automatic.” BATFE agents confiscated seven of Mr. Glover’s FAL rifles, and test fired them all at a range. The BATFE firearms expert produced a report in which he concluded that six of the seven FAL rifles were “semiautomatic” weapons.

One of the weapons, the BATFE expert said, would shoot “automatically more than one shot without manual reloading by a single function of the trigger,” and therefore was a “machinegun.”

At this point, the BATFE field agents had accused Mr. Glover of manufacturing fully automatic firearms, but had been wrong about all but one of the guns they seized. There’s more to the story.

The Truth Is On the Tape

Recall that the BATFE expert initially said that one of the FAL-type weapons tested out as a “machinegun.” The testing was done in front of a video camera.

On the videotape, you can see the BATFE agent struggling to get that FAL rifle to fire automatically. It won’t. And it won’t. Oops, there it fired a couple of shots in a row. Next time, nope. The rifle only randomly fires automatically. Do you know why?

An independent firearms expert examined the firearm and watched the videotape. The independent expert’s report explained it: “The FN-FAL type rifle, serial number KR2048, is malfunctioning. It is not designed or redesigned, manufactured or remanufactured, to be a machinegun.” Instead, “worn firing pin components do explain why two (2) out of twelve (12) tests in the automatic setting fired bursts … This is a malfunction which is very dangerous and could be fatal to the user.”

This seems like a funny story until you realize that Mr. Glover’s life was turned upside down by the federal felony indictments against him. He had to hire a defense lawyer and a firearms expert to prepare a defense against these charges of illegally manufacturing and possessing machineguns without a license. His firearms were confiscated; he now has a record of arrest and indictment.

Confiscation Is “For Keeps”

Once the BATFE knew the true reasons why the one firearm randomly fired multiple rounds on a single trigger pull, the BATFE would call off the machine gun prosecution and return the guns, right?

No. The BATFE has never conceded that the firearms are not fully-automatic and that its tests proved wrong. To date, although the prosecution was dropped, BATFE has refused to return the confiscated rifles to Mr. Glover.

You can get a copy of the raw footage of BATFE agents attempting to fire Mr. Glover’s FN-FAL in full-auto mode. You can watch how, after extensive testing, it became obvious that the rifle was not a “machine gun.”

Let the facts sink in: if you have a semi-automatic firearm, then you can suffer the same fate as John Glover. On the incorrect or trumped up suspicion of some BATFE agents that your gun has been modified to fire full-auto, you can be dragged into a federal gun law prosecution. If your gun misfires under testing, some BATFE “expert” will say it was modified to fire full-auto. Then you’ll be spending lots of money and sleepless nights worrying about proving to the government courts that the government agents are wrong.



Kinda makes you think I came across this in a gun mag and i think if they come it will be for the .50's first......Just my .02 cents. Dont get all mad now I was talking to some guys at daves gun shop today its about .5 miles form my house and i brought up this subject and these are his words not mine I think it would be hard to reposess the 40 or 50,000,000 guns in the U.S with out a bad out come ....guys that are LEO's they will be last because if you tell a trained dog to stay it stays.....

Merc
01-29-2007, 09:45 PM
GREAT Post :machinegu

btown02
01-29-2007, 09:59 PM
Since we seem determined to turn this political lets move it here.

abpt1
01-29-2007, 10:05 PM
Sorry i was just trying to show both sides and because there are too many of these storys for them all to be B.S dont you think?

btown02
01-29-2007, 10:09 PM
No problem. It was headed here anyway. :)

Medula Oblongata
01-29-2007, 10:23 PM
There is much more to that story that you haven't read. Having formerly worked for that agency I was privy to much information that you haven't read, such as why the BATFE became interested in him in the first place (Ahem, importing, manufacturing, and selling without an FFL) and a bunch of henkey stuff found in his workshop.

Don't believe what the JPFO says, its utterly twisted to show one particular viewpoint and villify anyone who disagrees with them.

On the 50 BMG issue, here is a link to an interesting thread on Leverguns.com where I am being attacked and insulted for having used a BMG to hunt. They are 90% in favor of banning the BMG for hunting, or possibly even outright.

http://leverguns.sixgunner.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=26557

I jumped in about the 3rd page.

Buddy Lee
01-30-2007, 12:25 PM
There is much more to that story that you haven't read. Having formerly worked for that agency I was privy to much information that you haven't read, such as why the BATFE became interested in him in the first place (Ahem, importing, manufacturing, and selling without an FFL) and a bunch of henkey stuff found in his workshop.

Don't believe what the JPFO says, its utterly twisted to show one particular viewpoint and villify anyone who disagrees with them.

I know the principle involved, and I trust his rendition of the events.

Buddy Lee

Medula Oblongata
01-30-2007, 01:43 PM
Good, I'm glad. What is this world without trust?

I, however, was privy to the investigative notes and watched the interviews that were taped. There was a lot going on that hasn't been publicized because it casts 'the principal' in a very negative light.

I'm not trying to bad mouth anyone. Far from it. He has not been charged with any crime and the only penalty was forfeiting the rifles. Not a bad outcome when one could have been imprisoned for several years for manufacturing and selling without an FFL.

Buddy Lee
01-30-2007, 02:11 PM
Fair enough.

Buddy Lee

susan28
02-14-2007, 03:16 AM
(editing here, ssing the thread's gone 5 pages since i got the email, oops.. keep up susan!!!)

i was thinking the same thing btown, i'm in florida too and supposedly nothing goes anywhere, but i *do* wonder about the ATF keeping a list of the background checks and the guns they were related to. they say they don't but who can trust an agency whose job is to violate the constitution? one that believes they know best for the public and that the end of "public safety" justifies the means of skirting the law? you can't put anything past such a personality type. the thread you posted on Liberal Pathology pegs it perfectly, even though the worst gun control has been passed by Repubs, both NFA and that 1986.. thing.. (holding my tongue here..)

this isn't paranoia it's just basic psychology. forewarned is forearmed and they telegraph their intent quite clearly. they'd outlaw slingshots if they could. (didn't they actually try once? because they're *quiet* and they loathe anything that isn't damaging to the ears?).

i'd like to say it's as simple as blaming the Democrats but the harsh fact is that this self-righteous paternalism exists on both sides of the aisle - Reagan himself not only signed but *praised* the treasonous document that prevents civilians from ever again having the firepower parity upon which our nation was based, and in doing so effectively created a 2-tier society. "inner party" and prole..

in practical terms, this is why even our own police and military heroes can't have a P-90 and its rightful ammunition in their own home. the so-called "Gun Owners' Protection Act" would've made even a *Clinton* blush, and was heralded as "long overdue" by a supposed Republican. not just *any* Repb but THE Repub. his apologists say he was just "compromising with a Democrat Congress to salvage what rights he could", but not so: he applauded the machinegun-ban portion of it after his fair-haired boy Brady got popped. blame the gun. no different than the rest. yea. Brady. a Repub. friends of the 2A? don't you believe it..

do *you* think being able to mail-order ammo is a fair trade for not having a P90 of your own, or tactically-correct ammo, forever and ever? i know the long barrel gives more umph, but the reason for it just makes me ill. the dang thing's a CQB weapon, and that shouldn't be a dirty word. in the hands of the military it's "the ultimate" but in civilian hands it's a "menace".? nice to be held in such high regard isn't it? how can you trust someone who doesn't trust you? this is just common sense..

with all that in mind, and with the outrage of door-to-door confiscation in New Orleans at the very moment guns were needed most, with law-abiding citizens held at gunpoint by our own soldiers on our own soil, and with confiscations ordered in San Francisco upon the outlawing of handguns there, with the voluntary registration lists of law-abiding citizens to be used as the route map, i think fear of "lists" is prudent.

we're one "national emergency" away from a federal confiscation action, i think. Bush wouldn't even bat an eyelid over it and has outright said he'd sign any AWB legislation that crossed his desk. again i refer you to New Orleans. let the dang Muslims hit us again and watch how our last line of defense - the armed citizens - are treated. if and when the nightmare scenario happens, take heart in the knowledge that you'll be *disarmed* in the aftermath.. or shot. it'll be your choice.

i hope i'm wrong, but if i'm not, i'd prefer for them not to have me on their little christmas list and have my dutiful compliance with their.. thing.. used *against* me, not just to take some C3 but *all* my guns right when they're needed most (in NO they did house searches, not just will calls. *gunpoint*.. let that resonate a moment.. US soldiers holding you at *gunpoint* demanding your weapons..).

so.. paranoid? i think it's just realistic. i'm going on actual events. this stuff is too pathetic to make up and too un-American for any decent citizen to even *imagine*, but there it is, staring us right in the face. trusting the untrustworthy is just bad policy, no matter *how* polite they are on the phone.

that's the list thing, but there's also the paperwork and the fact that you need the blessing of your local sheriff, and the notion of asking *permission* to buy a gun just sticks in my craw, and even if it didn't i understand most sheriffs just won't give, if for no other reason than they'd prolly catch heck if anyone ever did go bonkers with one. although statistics show that C3 owners are among the sanest and safest of all gun owners. there's virtually zero crimes comitted by them.

if you're not a LEO yourself, the only way to skirt the uncooperative sheriff is to actually open a gun shop (storefront required), and send in regular shop records and all manner of grief, and if it's a P90 ye be wantin', then you have to jump thru the "post 86" (i call it "Ronnie's Law") hoop of doing a "police demo" (yes, you really have to do it, not just say you are). but for that you also get the honour of ordering ss190, and at list price no less!! o happy day.. still, it's all too nuts for my blood, which of course is exactly the reaction they want.

the guy i know here who owns the shop i use is ex military and once applied for a security clearance to work at Pratt here. they went thru his trash, and when he went to talk to the supervisor, he says, "so, i see you own automatic weapons?".

it's all just too intrusive and just downright depressing when you realise just how owned you really are.. you go about your daily business, shop, pay the bills, but then you come up against something like this and you just get sick when you hear some talking head on TV say "freedom(tm)" .. at least i do.. i prefer the original version..

and that's why i hate lists.. (turning in essay to the teacher :) )

Medula Oblongata
02-14-2007, 04:15 AM
Wow... Too many points to contradict, so I'll start with the most obvious.

1. The BATFE collects NO LIST of lawful firearms transactions. That is a matter dependant upon your state. The FBI conducts the NICS check, and the BATFE has nothing to do with it in any way. Your FBI file is your right to examine, and no firearms purchase records are kept. Period. This is codified, and I know from personal experience that this is the case, with the exception of 'multiple transactions records.'

2. NFA tax stamps are protected under the laws of the USC and cannot be shared with other agencies without a warrant issued by a court holding lawful jurasdiction.

3. An uncooperative sheriff can be skirted by the Cheif of police, District Attorney, or by setting up a corporation, LLC, Revocable trust, and several other ways.

4. LEO's are not exempt from any other regulation than an average citizen is. Duty weapons are permissable only for the purpose of duty, and should the man leave the agency, all weapons purchased under that guise are forfeit.

5. This 'guy you know' who owns this 'gun shop' is full of garbage. 'They' did not go through his trash and discover anything, nor did the BATFE turn over the tax information, which is inviolable, to anyone. He's feeding you a line of crap.

6. I don't want your average 'Bubba' owning a machinegun. Go to your local range and after watching the retards there, ask yourself if regulating those weapons isn't a good thing. What I don't agree with is the 1986 prohabition on new transferrable weapons. other than that, I'm glad you have to go through a background check to get one.

7. Perhaps you didn't read the law codified last year entilted the 'Disaster recovery personal protection act.' It prevents the states and federal government from confiscating firearms EVEN UNDER MARTIAL LAW from lawful posessors, regardless of the circumstances.

Best regards!

susan28
02-14-2007, 05:19 AM
thanks for the detailed response, Medula.. i feel a little better now, especially about the confiscation thing. that-s a *huge* load off..

so was that anti-confiscation thing passed after / as a result of the whole New Orleans debauchle, then? if so, good response. it was certainly needed, especially with martial law seeming alot more of a possibility. i don't mind rationing or any of the other stuff, but disarmament really disturbed me. maybe it was even for the best, so that it could be addressed now for any future situations. chalk one up for the Constituton. yay.

and yea i know LEO's are subject to the same regs, i just meant it would likely be more guranteed for an LEO to get sheriff/Chief approval. that would be pretty lame to be turned down by your own Chief though i suppose it does happen, like in NY state. i hear they're pretty anal up there. i did some research a couple years ago on the LLC thing and read you had to have a storefront for the corporation, and pretty much nixed the idea after that, and being told our local Chief and sheriff didn't write notes.

and i don't so much mind a background check for a C3 as i'd worry that the information would precede me or somehow cause prejudice against me in legal situatiuons or whatnot. but from what you say, it doesn't sound like it would. just with the Patriot Act and the whole "Total Information Awareness" thing it just seems like nothing's sacred and best to assume everything's getting scrutinised by everyone. i mean they're talking about profiling by our dang *grocery* bills and such now, and what books we read, so i can just imagine how a machine gun would factor in.

and yes the "new transferrable" thing is what i'm so bent over. that's just flat-out infringement, no other word for it. and a P90's really the only NFA gun i want so that's that, though i wouldn't mind a suppressor for my FsN and my G20. problem is everything i shoot is supersonic, hehe.. i wouldn't throw an HK53 outta the safe, but i wouldn't grovel for one. too many different calibres. i'm a 5.7 girl, rather keep it at that.

now to clarify, my gun dealer (and yes it's an actual store, been there for years) wouldn't BS me about the employment thing, but it was during the process of getting a high-security clearance for a government contractor, it wasn't just any job. so it could have been revealed, maybe, but he was just surprised they brought it up. the supervisor said, "it's no big deal, but i see you own automatic weapons". it's a judgement call of course, but this is a quiet type guy, not a braggard. i don't see him making that up.

btown02
02-14-2007, 08:01 AM
What MO said.

abpt1
02-14-2007, 09:09 AM
I have to say one thing in i HATE! going to the range when there are those mall ninja types there it makes my uneasy but whats wrong with bubba? I have a few memberships at different ranges for different events but as for just everyday shooting. I admit i shoot at a private LEO range in my township that you have to be cheched out by the range officer to join .Only those who live in the township or if you are a leo can join. But you must pass the basic range safety test also the first tuesday and thursday night of the month the range is closed because the dept uses it but to get to the point i agree with MO on one thing he said


"6. I don't want your average "retard" owning machinegun.


but there is nothing wrong with bubba!

susan28
02-14-2007, 11:26 AM
yes we are being a lil hard on poor Bubba i think :) "profile not lest ye be profiled", yes? but yea i get the point too. MG-wielding retards bad. i don't think we need to *save his info* once he passes his background check, mind you, but we shouldn't make fun of the name momma gave him..

btown: re: the storefront thing, can't remember where i read it, but i'm thinking it might have been not for regular NFA, but for a "post 86" thing. something about "storefront visible from the street" or whatnot. it was awhile ago, and was in the context of wanting a P90 and made it seem like just staying legal was a fulltime job. whatever it was, it was federal, not a Florida thing. i just remember picturing someone sitting in the display window of this empty storefront with nothing but a file cabinet in it fondling a machinegun, hehe.. kind of a strange visual :)

all that said, yea Florida's sure a breeze when you see what others have to deal with isn't it? it's the only state i've seen that actually has *penalties* for keeping people's info. "attempted registration" (my word) is actually a *crime* here, hehe.. gotta love it!!

susan28
02-14-2007, 01:07 PM
you know, all politics, all "events", all protective legislation (if the 2A didn't work, nothing will) aside, it boils down to one thing: trust.

do we have faith in human nature? have humans - all ideologies aside - proven trustworthy with power in the past? no. if humans were all sunshine and rainbows we wouldn't have laws to start with, right? nor guns.

legislation helps, but ultimately the only check on power is power, and we've given ours up.

there's an old saying, "a good business relationship is based on mutual distrust". i think the same holds true for good government, and the Founders agreed. the day we start trusting *any* government, no matter *what* its motives are (most people feel they are doing what is "best", the question is who decides, is the day our country dies, IMO. if we don't keep it on a short leash then we'll be wearing the collar. we already are. call it "good", call it "necessary", but don't call it freedom..

there may be ways around the "permission slip" thing, but still: there shouldn't be anything to "get around". the law sets up enforcers as judges, without a crime ever being committed. that's alot of power to give a single individual. it's wrong, and it strikes me as illegal. but even if it isn't - and *especially* if it isn't - it's a bad precedent.

and for what it's worth i do think 20 years down the road. it's not just about "it won't happen anytime soon", or "i won't be viewed as suvbersive so it's all good", it's about our legacy. if future generations are oppressed due to the foundation we laid, that makes me sad, and if "it" (whatever "it" is) happens to *anyone*, "subversive" or otherwise, now or 500 years from now, i view it as a personal failure. it means we blew it, and that's not cool..

smeman
02-23-2007, 07:48 AM
I'll tell you why I'll never go class 3. I'm too cheap to spend all that money on ammo.

Druse
02-26-2007, 01:05 AM
You know, thats probably the only reason not to go C3 that most everyone can agree on: Too expensive to keep up with the ammo you are going to send downrange for most of us. :)

jmz5
02-26-2007, 01:11 AM
It's only money. :D

susan28
02-26-2007, 01:12 AM
::laffin:: agreed :)

Medula Oblongata
02-26-2007, 02:28 AM
Ever heard of reloading???

It costs me $.10 to reload a SUPERIOR .223 round, $.05 for a .45ACP, $.04 for a 9mm, etc... Thats pretty cheap, IMHO. All of those being match grade rounds. Compare those to the Black Label factory ammo...

snw19
02-27-2007, 02:36 PM
It costs me $.10 to reload a SUPERIOR .223 round, $.05 for a .45ACP, $.04 for a 9mm, etc... Thats pretty cheap, IMHO. All of those being match grade rounds. Compare those to the Black Label factory ammo...
That will be changing soon if it hasn't already! I cringe every time I price components now. Going to take out a second mortgage and stock up before it's too expensive to reload too!!

Medula Oblongata
02-27-2007, 02:54 PM
Components are getting pricey.. The Dem's must me smiling all the way to the bank.

smeman
02-27-2007, 02:57 PM
Why work for 30 years to just find out they want all the money I scrimped and invested so I wouldnt impact SO SO security.

Medula Oblongata
02-27-2007, 03:00 PM
?

snw19
02-27-2007, 06:41 PM
Components are getting pricey.. The Dem's must me smiling all the way to the bank.
They know they can't repeal the 2nd ammedment so they'll make it too expensive to enjoy.
Besides, all that lead has to contribute to our carbon footprint or contaminate the ground water (since it originally came from the ground), or something...

Medula Oblongata
02-27-2007, 06:58 PM
I don't think there is a real conspiracy to price reloading components out of the market by the dem's. There is, however, a conspiracy amongst manufacturers to jack the price of metallic components up because of a 'shortage' of raw material.. Pure bullox. They are just greedy and were looking for an excuse.

Primers have gone up, here, on average $6 a thousand. Which is nearly 33%, whereas the price of brass has only gone up 5%. Lead has increased 41% and the raw material price has increased only 7%. The manufacturer's increase hasn't even been seen in the stores yet, but they have increased their prices just to gouge that extra few cents whenever, and wherever they can.

Now in states like CA, there is a definate putsch to price components and loaded ammo out of the market "FOR THE CHILDREN AND CONDORS SAKE!"

susan28
02-27-2007, 07:18 PM
all 2A violations from the NFA forward are based on a perversion of the commerce clause, which ironically was intended to prevent unfair taxation of interstate commerce. it was never intended to be the basis for what are essentially blue laws.

the fact that you need the permission of a LEO - a member of the criminal justice system not the civil system - to get a *tax* stamp, and the fact that the BATFE is a branch of the *treasury* department (who will likely come knocking on your door as though you were a criminal suspect simply for "paying your taxes"), shows the whole thing for the sham it is.

and FWIW the NFA was penned by a Republican congressman on behalf of a gun manufacturer in his state who was suffering financial losses due to war veterans who were converting mil-surp weapons into hunting weapons. this is where the "sporting purposes only" requirement came from, because imported sporiting weapons were expensive and therefore no competition, but mil-surp stuff was cheap and cutting into profits of domestic mfgrs of sporting weapons. it was a piece of pork tossed to a rich constituent that ended up having the unintended consequence of being spun as "the 2A was only intended to let us have sporting weapons" .. it had nothing to do with "legitimiate civilian purposes", it had to do with protectionsim. one which the neocon free-marketeers conveniently ingore becuase they're no more friends of the 2A than the Dems are, and if you think they are i have a bridge to sell you.. let one of them repeal the "post 86" clause of the GOPA and i'll mail them a pic of my new P90 along with my campaign contribution, but not until.

like they say, Dems throw money at their problems and Repubs throw it at their friends,
unfortunately Dems think a strong citizenry is a problem and neither of them view us as their friends..

and yes, the Dems are using taxes to thwart us, witness the "bullet tax" etc, and they know we'll try to dodge that with reloading so they're covering that too. infact many pols want to outlaw reloading altogether. and here in Palm Beach county Florida where i live, ranges can only let you shoot ammo you buy there - no reloads or botique stuff, just marked-up Blazer and Silvertips that cost more than "post ban" ss192. and of course the excuse - as always - is "safety" .. and it may *be* safer but i guarantee that wasn't the lobbyist's true concern.

btown02
02-27-2007, 07:24 PM
the fact that you need the permission of a LEO - a member of the criminal justice system not the civil system - to get a *tax* stamp,
Not exactly correct. The LEO sign off is not giving permission for anything, it just states there are no State or local laws that would prevent you from owning the weapon. And where in the world are you coming up with that other stuff you're posting? :)

susan28
02-27-2007, 07:40 PM
that's cool btown ( i am learning some of the finer points of this from you ).

but even if it's not prohibited by law, can they still deny it arbitrarily or are NFA sign-offs shall-issue? how bout here in Fla?

i've heard all kinds of horror stories about people being refused by sherrifs, chiefs, judges and the whole chain of command, and essentially having to form corporations to sidestep all the bias in their various locales. i've heard some cheifs "write" and some don't. is this bs?

btown02
02-27-2007, 07:48 PM
that's cool btown ( i am learning some of the finer points of this from you ).

but even if it's not prohibited by law, can they still deny it arbitrarily or are NFA sign-offs shall-issue? how bout here in Fla?

i've heard all kinds of horror stories about people being refused by sherrifs, chiefs, judges and the whole chain of command, and essentially having to form corporations to sidestep all the bias in their various locales. i've heard some cheifs "write" and some don't. is this bs?
There is nothing that requires them to sign, most don't even understand the Form or what it is having probably never see them before. There are enough people that can sign that no matter where you live in the State you should be able to get the sign off done. I live less than two miles from the Sheriffs Office and Police Department. I got the local State's Attorney to sign for two reasons, one he reads the paperwork and knows what he is signing, and two he's a gun nut. All you need to do is check with one of your local C3 dealers and ask them who will and won't sign.

susan28
02-27-2007, 08:19 PM
cool.. thanks again btown.. i guess the horror stories are the ones you hear about cuz the happy people are too busy shooting :)

sadly there's no ownable auto-gear i'm really keen for (i'd just be whispering the names of other guns in my sleep, hehe), but an SBR or shotgun might be a worthy addition. i heart my 870 but 18" really is a bit unwieldy indoors and the country estate is a ways off yet..

snw19
03-01-2007, 02:28 PM
I was under the understanding that the sign off had to be done by the CLEO for the area it will be kept. If you were going to keep it within city limits, it has to be the chief of police. If outside of city limits, the sherrif. Makes sense though because a state attorney general is a CLEO and you have to live in some county in the state.

btown02
03-01-2007, 02:32 PM
I was under the understanding that the sign off had to be done by the CLEO for the area it will be kept.
There are several people that can do the sign off. Go with the one that will be easy to get.

snw19
03-01-2007, 02:37 PM
I don't think there is a real conspiracy to price reloading components out of the market by the dem's. There is, however, a conspiracy amongst manufacturers to jack the price of metallic components up because of a 'shortage' of raw material.. Pure bullox. They are just greedy and were looking for an excuse.
Don't think there's a conspiracy either. First heard it was because of the war (strategic metals), then the Al Gore "Green" thing. Not sure on the greedy manufacturer's, they make more by selling more product. Tobacco doesn't cost more, it's the taxes they put on it.

Now in states like CA, there is a definate putsch to price components and loaded ammo out of the market "FOR THE CHILDREN AND CONDORS SAKE!"
Unfortunately there are more and more states like CA.
And there's more condors in Grand Canyon, AZ then CA...

Medula Oblongata
03-01-2007, 03:18 PM
I will still buy the same amount of components regardless of the price increase, so that I may continue to do what it is that I like to do. Most reloaders will do the same. Ergo, the manufacturers, distributors, and retailers make more money.

Sales of factory loaded ammo has stayed fairly constant, as the casual gunners and hunters just buy whatever is cheap on the way to the range, and lets face it; most casual gunners and hunters only go through a few boxes per year. For most calibers, the sales rate is nearly steady until some onerous anti-gun bill is proposed in congress. Then they panic and buy as many 'spam' cans as they can.

Guys who buy premium hunting ammo rarely go through more than a couple boxes per year anyway, as the cost is WAAAAYYY to great, but they still trust the mass produced stuff over a carefully crafted handload. I trust my handloads over any factory loading ever produced. I take that much pride in mine, and my manufacturing technique.

snw19
03-01-2007, 04:06 PM
I will still buy the same amount of components regardless of the price increase, so that I may continue to do what it is that I like to do. Most reloaders will do the same.
True. I'll actually buy more now before it gets any more expensive then I would have kept around before. I will continue to do what I like (shoot and reload) but not happy about reloading costing me so much. Used to supply the ammo when friends and I went to the range but now they have to chip in. And no giving any to friends who won't pick up the brass...

I trust my handloads over any factory loading ever produced. I take that much pride in mine, and my manufacturing technique.
and that's why I still use a single stage over a progressive. I like to feel how the primer seats in the casing, see the powder level, and feel the neck tension when seating the bullet.

Medula Oblongata
03-01-2007, 05:10 PM
Agreed :)

I do all my rifle on a single stage.

susan28
03-01-2007, 10:20 PM
let me ask this: if you move, do you have to notify anyone? the ATF? or the city of perhaps new state that you move to (assuming here that the new state you move to doesn't have its own registration laws, like Kali)?

also, does purchase of a C3 automatically constitute a consent to random house searches/visits by the ATF, or are you simply required to present the weapon upon request? are you required to let them in if they visit?

p99guy
03-01-2007, 11:42 PM
You have to notify ATF of address changes, there is no requirment or system to notify anyone else at your new location( dont move to one of those states that dont permit NFA
ownership however) You must file a form with ATF before you go out of state with certain NFA items, and have thier approval in writing before doing so....for example if you were to attend the Knob Creek machine gun shoot with your personally owned full auto, you would need to obtain written permission to take it out of your state. (if I remember correctly , that dont apply to suppressors) but Full autos and SBR, yes.

No, NFA ownership as an individual gives no permission or concent, or special powers to ATF to come in your house and search anything.

If you are a DEALER, they can come check your bound books during business hours, and inspect weapons listed as inventory during the records check....as a dealer it happens about once a year here in Tx.
When I was a 01& SOT...I had a lady ATF arrive at my door about 9am and didnt leave till 6pm( the records check took all of 10 minutes, the tossing up her toenails and laying on my couch with a cold rag on her head..was an all day thing)

as a C&R licensee and non dealer NFA owner...I have never seen a BATFE agent at my house, or so much as a phone call.

M.O. can certainly fill in any info gaps I may have overlooked on this.

Medula Oblongata
03-02-2007, 02:17 AM
MO will certainly decline to reveal anything more than what has already been disclosed... :)

susan28
03-02-2007, 03:20 AM
When I was a 01& SOT...I had a lady ATF arrive at my door about 9am and didnt leave till 6pm( the records check took all of 10 minutes, the tossing up her toenails and laying on my couch with a cold rag on her head..was an all day thing)

sounds like you really gave her the business :applause:

hmmm, ok, so here's a scenario:

i buy an NFA gun in florida and move to Kalifornia, but leave the gun in florida, where i still maintain a residence (infact florida even has what's called a "florida only license" for residents of other states who live here seasonally, so there'd actually be documentation of my status beyond just home ownership). do i have to tell ATF that i now have a residence in another state, even if the gun doesn't come with me? do they need to know about every property i own (even in other countries?), simply because i've got an SBR parked in one of them?

or, i sell the florida home and therefore have no ties to florida, but leave the gun in storage here, or leave it with a friend here, to shoot/caress when here visiting. do i actually have to live in the same location the gun's at, even if the gun remains in the state where i legally purchased it and i keep ATF apprised of its storage location?

btown02
03-02-2007, 07:46 AM
Susan, some reading material for you.


http://www.atf.gov/pub/nfab/index.htm

p99guy
03-02-2007, 12:29 PM
lol Susan she was lucky I was off work that day...she got taken care of as well as she would have been by family...even fixing lite foodstuffs that she could keep down, tylonol,
soap opras, comfy blanket/pillow...she turned out to be a nice person.

susan28
03-02-2007, 04:01 PM
thanks for that link Btown, it was N-FABu..

my prime concern with the above scenarios was that one might be required to get rid of their pride-n-joys simply because one had established a primary, or even secondary, residence in a place where they were verboten. but that's adequately covered. cool.

i was, however, dismayed by the constant use of the word "permission", as the whole thing is entirely too reminiscent of the life we ostensibly leave behind when we turn 18..

and no matter who has or doesn't have access to the information, if *anyone* does, it invites abuse, especially with people like Curious George around.. it's why "attempted registration" is a *crime* in Florida! (statute 790.335.. gotta love it!). our wise legislators know where that leads, and how spirit-crushing such surveillance is, which is why it was outlawed here: so all of us - including Bubba!(hehe) - could breathe free and bask in the sunshine without looking over our shoulders, and know that if we see a badge, it's because of something we did, not merely something we own.. or because we've invited the officer over for brunch and a pedicure :)

lol Susan she was lucky I was off work that day...she got taken care of as well as she would have been by family...even fixing lite foodstuffs that she could keep down, tylonol, soap opras, comfy blanket/pillow...she turned out to be a nice person.

well my my aren't you the treausre!!

hmmm what's the saying? "the road to Club Fed is paved with good intentions and we are escorted down it by friendly ATF agents with painted toenails?" no no, don't wake me up yet.. :D

btown02
03-02-2007, 04:03 PM
You're welcome. :)

JerryTofDallas
03-11-2007, 06:32 PM
On the 50 BMG issue, here is a link to an interesting thread on Leverguns.com where I am being attacked and insulted for having used a BMG to hunt. They are 90% in favor of banning the BMG for hunting, or possibly even outright. http://leverguns.sixgunner.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=26557 I jumped in about the 3rd page.

If you're worried about being on some big brother list for going over to the class 3 dark side, please let me assure you that ya'll are already on more gov computers i.e.: lists than Carter has little liver pills. Between private sector "demographic profiling" marketing, OFAC and Patriot Act NSA, CIA, FBI, ATF etc databases you would be amazed at what "they" know about you. Not only can they tell what brand of butt wipe you buy but which hand you wipe your arse with.

Medula, Welcome to the ostracized from polite shooting society 50BMG hunters club! I've been dropping coyotes at 200 - 300 yards with my Maadi and Tac-50 for years and have been roundly criticized for it. I obviously don't subscribe to the "too much gun for the job" argument. Gez, what's the difference, dead is dead. Just how messy is only question to be debated in my demented little pea brain.

Esteves
04-04-2007, 05:18 PM
Whats your take on all the people who are scared to death of going class III ?

I've avoided the whole class III thing for economic reasons, a personal abhorrence of red-tape, and philisophical disagreement with the premise that creating administrative crimes where no victim is present makes the world a safer/better place.

Medula Oblongata
04-04-2007, 05:29 PM
...philisophical disagreement with the premise that creating administrative crimes where no victim is present makes the world a safer/better place.

I agree that 'administrative crimes' are an abomination.

As to avoiding it because of the red tape, that's what they want. They want to mystify it as much as possible, and keep people as scared as possible, so people won't own 'scary evil machineguns and mufflers.'

I say screw them, "where's my form 1 and 4??? Gimme gimme NOW!"

susan28
04-04-2007, 05:32 PM
I've avoided the whole class III thing for economic reasons, a personal abhorrence of red-tape, and philisophical disagreement with the premise that creating administrative crimes where no victim is present makes the world a safer/better place.

yes! what Esteves said. (thinking i need to hire Esteves to edit my posts, lol, save me alotta words :) )

susan28
04-04-2007, 05:55 PM
Medula's right of course.. our righteous indignation only rewards their insolence.. but still..

Esteves
04-04-2007, 09:58 PM
I agree that 'administrative crimes' are an abomination.

As to avoiding it because of the red tape, that's what they want. They want to mystify it as much as possible, and keep people as scared as possible, so people won't own 'scary evil machineguns and mufflers.'

I say screw them, "where's my form 1 and 4??? Gimme gimme NOW!"

When I was single, I'd have agreed vehemently. I finally started to understand the laws/regs/processes well enough to feel comfortable going down the NFA path just before I got married, we got pregnant, and I became a father. Now that I'm a hubby and a daddy there always seems to be other demands on the household budget. That's why I mentioned the economic constraint first in my list.

Needless to say, I'm not in any of the categories of people that the legislation was intended to limit (sold to the public as limiting.) I'm not a gangster, I'm not an assassin, I'm not a poacher, I'm not a criminal of any sort. I am, in fact, in the category of people that the law of the land should be protecting and encouraging to flourish.

The commerce clause that the GCA and NFA are based on has been used to eliminate the inexpensive submachinegun from the market, along with the inexpensive suppressor, the inexpensive SBR, and the inexpensive SBS. The latter two ought to be slightly less expensive than their full-length counterparts. The inexpensive (disposable) suppressor has no civilian market today because it doesn't make sense to produce a $40.00 can that's going to have a $200.00 tax stamped onto it. The Hughes ammendment to FOPA froze the supply of SMGs at 1986 levels so that a $800.00 gun now costs ten times as much. That same ammendment made it impossible for mere mortals to obtain certain firearms at all.

It also ticks me off that the GCA and NFA and FOPA were all passed before I was born or was of legal voting age, and don't get me started on the tactics used by Hughes to get his poison pill swallowed.

End of vent. Thanks for listening.

Mahnmut
04-04-2007, 10:19 PM
So is it possible to have the Hughes amendment repealed?

Esteves
04-05-2007, 04:44 AM
So is it possible to have the Hughes amendment repealed?

Optimistically, sure it's just a set of words. Anyone with a pen (or word processor) can change words... ;)

Pragmatically, it's politics. Write to your senators, to your congresscritter, to those organizations that you pay dues to in order for them to represent your interests in Washington. Tell them what you want to see.

(Adding the words "on or" before "before" might have the effect of resetting the clock on the subsection, and might get past the guards. I dunno, IANAL. Striking the whole subsection would probably meet your goals too, but would probably catch all sorts of flack.)

Then there's the whole "file for a transfer that you know will be denied so that you can then go to court and appeals and eventually get the supreme court to rule on it." approach.

Bear in mind that the AWB sunset was relatively simple (process-wise), in comparison to any of the above.

Some history on how it came to be:
http://www.guncite.com/journals/hardfopa.html#fnb216
http://www.guncite.com/journals/hardfopa.html#fnb457

badaddiction
04-05-2007, 09:49 AM
You're welcome. I bought my first C3 in 1979 and several more since then. I have never had a problem with ATF and only one visit. They have always been nice and polite on the phone or in person. If a person follows the rules they will have nothing to worry about.

Let us hope the rules never change...I see a trend in legislation to make once perfectly legal activities illegal today (and no grandfathering in)...smoking in CA, transfats in NY, learning the Constitution in public school system (j/k). Mindless thought seems to be a problem with some fringe politicians. There seems to be a thought in government today that if they know what is better for you (and they often believe they do) that they can stomp all over your freedoms to do it.

thorfinn
04-05-2007, 10:11 AM
I'm actually filling out my very first form 4 right now.

I must admit.....I'm a little nervous. I have been around machineguns my entire adult life but have never owned my own.

The CLEO here is a buddy of mine who frequently comes to dinner and barbecues. Signoff and prints are no problem at all.

I have already paid for the item.........so theres no turning back now.

It's going to be a huge relief when the approved form and stamp come back. I'm a little freaked out......maybe its just excitement.

748
04-14-2007, 08:03 PM
I'm in the system and on the list. Thats what happens when you are in the military.
I figured they all ready have my finger prints digitaly up loaded to the FBI, they have a DNA sample from me (blood), they have all ready done an FBI back round check at least 2 times.
So why not.
I got my first form 1 signed for a sawed off shot gun last week.
Before I go back to the hot and dry place again I hope to pay for a supressor that way I will have started the paper work to own one. Then by the time I get back it will be waiting for me to play with.
I'll have some $ for going over there, and plan to get another one soon after I get back.