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Medula Oblongata
01-19-2007, 01:12 AM
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/politics/16487654.htm?source=rss

No-spank bill on way
By Mike Zapler
MediaNews Sacramento Bureau
SACRAMENTO - The state Legislature is about to weigh in on a question that stirs impassioned debate among moms and dads: Should parents spank their children?

Assemblywoman Sally Lieber, D-Mountain View, wants to outlaw spanking children up to 3 years old. If she succeeds, California would become the first state in the nation to explicitly ban parents from smacking their kids.

Making a swat on the behind a misdemeanor might seem a bit much for some -- and the chances of the idea becoming law appear slim, at best -- but Lieber begs to differ.

``I think it's pretty hard to argue you need to beat a child 3 years old or younger,'' Lieber said. ``Is it OK to whip a 1-year-old or a 6-month-old or a newborn?''

The bill, which is still being drafted, will be written broadly, she added, prohibiting ``any striking of a child, any corporal punishment, smacking, hitting, punching, any of that.'' Lieber said it would be a misdemeanor, punishable by up to a year in jail or a fine up to $1,000, although a legal expert advising her on the proposal said first-time offenders would probably only have to attend parenting classes.

The idea is encountering skepticism even before it's been formally introduced. Beyond the debate among child psychologists -- many of whom believe limited spanking can be effective -- the bill is sure to face questions over how practical it is to enforce and opposition from some legislators who generally oppose what they consider ``nanny government.''

``Where do you stop?'' asked Assemblyman Chuck DeVore, R-Irvine, who said he personally agrees children under 3 shouldn't be spanked but has no desire to make it the law. ``At what point are we going to say we should pass a bill that every parent has to read a minimum of 30 minutes every night to their child? This is right along those same lines.''

One San Jose mother of three said she believes spanking is a poor way to discipline children, but she also wondered whether a legislative ban makes sense. Should a mom who slaps her misbehaving kid in the supermarket, she asked, be liable for a crime?

``If my 6-year-old doesn't put his clothes in the hamper, I'm not going to whack him. He just won't get his clothes washed,'' said Peggy Hertzberg, 38, who teaches parenting classes at the YWCA. ``I think instead of banning spanking, parents need to learn different ways of disciplining and redirecting their children.''

Lieber conceived the idea while chatting with a family friend and legal expert in children's issues worldwide. The friend, Thomas Nazario, said that while banning spanking might seem like a radical step for the United States, more than 10 European countries already do so. Sweden was the first, in 1979.

Nazario said there's no good rationale for hitting a child under 3, so the state should draw a ``bright line'' in the law making it clear.

``Why do we allow parents to hit a little child and not someone their own size?'' asked Nazario, a professor at the University of San Francisco Law School. ``Everyone in the state is protected from physical violence, so where do you draw the line? To take a child and spank his little butt until he starts crying, some people would define that as physical violence.''

It's unclear how a spanking ban would be enforced. Most slapping, after all, happens in the confines of a home, and most children up to age 3 aren't capable of reporting it.

Doctors, social workers and others who believe a child has been abused are required by law to report it to authorities. Nazario said he and Lieber are still debating whether to treat slapping the same way, or simply to encourage those who witness it to report it. But in either case, said Lieber, the law ``would allow people who view a beating to say, `Excuse me, that's against the law.' ''

Experts in child psychology disagree over whether spanking is a legitimate or effective way for parents to discipline their children. Professor Robert Larzelere, who has studied child discipline for 30 years, said his research shows spanking is fine, as long as it's used sparingly and doesn't escalate to abuse.

``If it's used in a limited way,'' the Oklahoma State University professor said, ``it can be more effective than almost any other type of punishment.'' He added that children 18 months old or younger shouldn't be spanked at all, because they can't understand why it's happening.

As for Lieber's proposal, the professor said: ``I think this proposal is not just a step too far, it's a leap too far. At least from a scientific perspective there really isn't any research to support the idea that this would make things better for children.''

But Lieber is optimistic that lawmakers will find her proposal hard to resist. For the record, she does not have children and says she was not slapped as a child. But she does have a cat named Snoop, which her veterinarian told her never to hit.

``And if you never hit a cat,'' Lieber said, ``you should never hit a kid.''


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Contact Mike Zapler at mzapler@mercurynews.com or (916) 441-4603.

OMG!!!

If this a law passes it will be the end of civilization as we know it! Imagine what would happen if parents were jailed for punishing realllllyy bad children. I have seen first hand what happens with encouragable kids who haven't parents who will smack the crap out of them when they need it. They turn into theives, robbers, rapists, dentists, confidence men, school teachers...

In all seriousness, what turnip cart did this woman fall off of, eh comrade?

Medula Oblongata
01-19-2007, 01:34 AM
``I think it's pretty hard to argue you need to beat a child 3 years old or younger,'' Lieber said. ``Is it OK to whip a 1-year-old or a 6-month-old or a newborn?''

There is a significant difference between a spanking and a beating. There is also a difference between punishment and a whipping. I love how this retard blurs the lines by making obsurd statements. How could anyone agree that a beating or whipping is justafiable? They can't, so if the libtards can equate a spanking with severe physical assault, they win.


Lieber conceived the idea while chatting with a family friend and legal expert in children's issues worldwide. The friend, Thomas Nazario, said that while banning spanking might seem like a radical step for the United States, more than 10 European countries already do so. Sweden was the first, in 1979.

Perhaps her learned friend has heard that Sweden now has the highest illegitimate birth rate in the world, having just topped 80%??? Perhaps this moron has also heard of Sweden's drug, prostitution, and child pornography problems? Perhaps he's also heard that Sweden's culture of "anything goes, as long as there is no structure" has lead that socialist nation to the brink of bankrupsy, because nobody works but they still demand free *everything*?

Yeah, Sweden is a great example to use. So goo, in fact, it makes me want to wake my daughters up just to give them a profalactic spanking.. Just to make sure..

``Why do we allow parents to hit a little child and not someone their own size?'' asked Nazario, a professor at the University of San Francisco Law School. ``Everyone in the state is protected from physical violence, so where do you draw the line? To take a child and spank his little butt until he starts crying, some people would define that as physical violence.''

And some people would define wearing a bra as violence too. Just tis' not the case. Once again, they are trying to obviscate the truth. If there is no consequece to bad behavior, there is no reason to avoid it. You can make your kids sit on their beds, stand in the corner, go into 'time out' all you want. But unless there is some teeth in the punishment, there is no punishment.

Lets face it. There were fewer repeat criminals when an offender, or as they used to be called, a CRIMINAL, were required to stand in the stocks for days/weeks/months. One dose of that was enough to cure most people of bad bahavior. Nowadays prison can be nothing more than a school to teach petty crooks how to become professionals.


Nazario said he and Lieber are still debating whether to treat slapping the same way, or simply to encourage those who witness it to report it. But in either case, said Lieber, the law ``would allow people who view a beating to say, `Excuse me, that's against the law.' ''


Once again, a spanking is not a beating.

Were some a**hole to walk up to me and flap their gums in that manner, I would then say to them "excuse me, are those your teeth on the ground?"

But Lieber is optimistic that lawmakers will find her proposal hard to resist.

Just like heroin junkies. A liberal politician never met a law that restricts liberty they didn't like, nor crave.

For the record, she does not have children and says she was not slapped as a child...

Nah, really? I couldn't tell. She is the poster child for mandatory "beatings and whippings."

But she does have a cat named Snoop, which her veterinarian told her never to hit.

``And if you never hit a cat,'' Lieber said, ``you should never hit a kid.''


Yeah, a cat is really annalogous to a child.

And for the record, I believe that all cats should receive regular "beatings." :rolleyes:

btown02
01-19-2007, 08:00 AM
That's just crazy, but it is California.

m1p90
01-19-2007, 09:13 AM
AHHH... Mexifornia. I'm glad I got out of that State when I did. I wonder how long it will be befor the entire State goes bellie-up?

jmz5
01-19-2007, 09:18 AM
Doesn't suprise me coming from california.

Monolith Arms
01-19-2007, 01:01 PM
Lieber said. ``Is it OK to whip a 1-year-old or a 6-month-old or a newborn?''

Thats insane, who "whips" 6-month old children...Come'on

I suppose if you have a 2 yr old. you should'nt smack there hand when they try to touch the hot stove, maybe insted you should just let them touch it. I mean after you you probley told them "no" a couple times. Im glad I left that state 13yrs ago, an never looked back!

:soap:

rips31
01-19-2007, 03:17 PM
kalifornistan is crazy. heck, she's only 45min away from sf. loonies, i tell ya. boxer needs to tell her that she won't suffer any personal consequences, or whatever.

Medula Oblongata
01-19-2007, 03:42 PM
I think she needs to learn the difference between a spanking, a beating, and a whipping [since her parents never taught her that valuable life lesson].

I volunteer to do the honors!! :beat:

Megatron
01-19-2007, 05:16 PM
California has more fruits, nuts, and flakes than a bowl of cereal.

Avid
01-19-2007, 05:58 PM
Another politician mistaken a brain fart for a bright idea. So, sad. :(

panzermk2
01-20-2007, 09:10 PM
in thier friggin libtard brains ANY Discipline is abuse. Thatís the basis of their complete mental state and way of life. You canít discipline because there is no bad behavior to be disciplined for.

panzermk2wife
01-22-2007, 02:15 AM
That's California for you and it doesn't surprise me in the least.

That will be the day someone tells me I can't smack my child on the butt or hand because it's against the law.

There is nothing wrong with a spanking once in awhile when it is well deserved.

rips31
01-22-2007, 03:13 PM
ugh...they had the cow that intro'd the bill on the today show this morning. wouldn't you know, they actually said it was a good idea. bleh.

Medula Oblongata
01-22-2007, 04:27 PM
<shrill liberal voice> But its for the Children!!!