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Rnelson11
07-12-2005, 06:01 AM
CCI small rifle primers
OAL 1.46"
COL 1.128"
V-Max 35 gr
Hodgdon HS6

6.2gr 1948 avg 1949,1947,1943,1953
6.3gr 1961 avg 1962,1987,1916,1979
6.4gr 1966 avg 1980,1945,2014,1925
6.5gr 1980 avg 2012,2035,1925,1949

========================================================
CCI small rifle primers
OAL 1.583" Basically the same as a factory round (SS195LF)
COL 1.128"
V-Max 40 gr
Hodgdon HS6

6.2gr 1907 avg 1905,1874,1929,1897,1928

========================================================

After I read 7of7s post I checked some of my fired cases and found that the neck on some of them had not moved very far. I have been using AA7 and HS6 so I don't know which were which but I will check from now on.
I also plan to go back and re-check 6.0 and 6.1 as well as use some pistol mag primers. I hope to get several combinations loaded before Saturday so I can do some testing.

Rnelson11
07-13-2005, 03:35 PM
After firing the above loads I see no signs of high pressure. Next I plan to test 6.6gr and 6.7gr loads with the 35gr bullets and 6.3gr, 6.4gr and 6.5gr loads with the 40gr bullets.

Esteves
07-13-2005, 04:56 PM
Woot!

Rnelson11
07-13-2005, 09:43 PM
Bullet on the right is a factory round, the one on the left is a V-Max 40 gr reload.

bullet2.gif

Nightrunner
07-14-2005, 12:13 AM
Now were getting down to the nitty gritty...

You guys deserve something for all the r&d work in my opinion.

Best I can do is thanks alot....

Rnelson11
07-15-2005, 09:22 PM
35 grain V-Max
HS6 powder
6.6 gr 2056 average 2061,2053,2059,2045,2062 7.07 std. dev.

These loads were very acurate. I think this had something to do with the consistency of the shots. I also shot some 40 grain V-Max bullets at 6.3 grains and 6.4 grains. The data was not very good. I think there were 2 problems. First, it was getting a little dark which I think affected the chrony and the shots were not real acurate so only 5 out of 10 registered. I plan to re-test the 40 grain V-Max bullets tomorrow.

I'll try to post some pictures of the primers tomorrow morning. They look OK to me, but I'd like some opinions on them.

Rnelson11
07-16-2005, 06:39 AM
These are the cases from the 6.6 grain reloads.

sulafool
07-16-2005, 12:16 PM
Your primers look like mine, don't know what it means. Maybe FN should have used a stronger firing pin spring.

As a result of this recent flurry of testing I'm beginning to wonder if FN factory loads are possibly very conservative? It seems too easy to match/exceed their performance with too many powders. I try to match factory ammo with other calibers and usually there are only a couple that will do it without exhibiting some nasty habits. (I'm talking hi power rifle loads, not handgun). Maybe the gun is overbuilt, or we are just insane!

Think about it: we have exceeded factory velocites with heavier bullets and with no apparent side effects. Mine weren't even good enough to cycle the slide reliably; what the hell is going on here?

Esteves
07-16-2005, 12:23 PM
I think that you may be right (but that's just an opinion/suspicion on my part.) The rumored SS190/1 and the soon-to-be available SS197 are probably better (less conservative) guages of the potential of this cartridge.

sulafool
07-16-2005, 04:06 PM
Here's how my shot factory primers look; note there is no protrusion at all:

Rnelson11
07-20-2005, 08:38 PM
CCI small rifle primers
OAL 1.46"
COL 1.128"
V-Max 35 gr
Hodgdon HS6

6.1gr 1935 avg 1939,1943,1979,1983,1944,1864,1920,1908
6.7gr 2053 avg 2050,2074,2042,2049

40gr V-Max
6.1gr Would not work slide. Bullet jamed in barrel.
6.5gr 1946 avg 1946,1950,1914,1935,1941,1988,1930,1963
These loads (6.5gr HS6 - 40gr V-Max) worked very well. Light recoil similar to factory loads.

I also got my RCBS bullet puller today and pulled a factore round (SS195). The bullet is a boat tail like the 40 grain V-Max but a lot longer. I plan to load some 40 grain V-Max bullets a little deeper to get the case capacity close to the factory round.

Esteves
07-20-2005, 11:25 PM
Keep it up! I'd actually consider going the other way, and using the extra case capacity to good advantage, but YMMV and you're doing the work so I'll shut up now...

Rnelson11
07-21-2005, 05:12 AM
I've reloaded several more rounds of some powder weights to accumulate more data and hopefully get better averages. Here is the complete table so far.

All reloading specs as above:
35 grain V-Max

Powder wt____ Avg_____# shots
6.0__________1897_______1
6.1__________1935_______8
6.2__________1937_______8
6.3__________1961_______4
6.4__________1966_______4
6.5__________1980_______4
6.6__________2021_______11
6.7__________2053_______3

40 grain V-Max

Powder wt____ Avg_____# shots
6.1__________Would not cycle slide, bullet stuck in barrel.
6.2__________1899_______10
6.3__________1905_______5
6.4__________1910_______7
6.5__________1946_______7

sulafool
07-21-2005, 10:08 AM
I applaud your detailed testing in .1 increments! I think you may have thus found the max load for HS6. I crunched your raw data and entered the velocities and std deviations into Excel and made the chart below. It shows how your speed increases fairly linearly, levels off some, then takes off again more sharply.

This type of behavior is typical when pressure has become most efficient and moved beyond that into the danger zone. If I understand the principles correctly, the level area, where increasing powder yields less velocity rate-of-increase, is where max safe pressure lies. When it spikes up thereafter, you are over the limit.

I added std dev, just FYI. Numbers across the bottom of the chart conveniently correspond with the tenths of the powder charge. The data reflects only that for 6.n charges of HS6 with 35gr Vmax. The 40 grain is not included.

Plotting data like this is about the only way we peons without pressure testing equipment can scientifically see what is going on--much less subjective than trying to read primers and such.

You have inspired me to not be so lazy and do the same for the powders I have; thank you!



P.S. Where did everybody go?

Rnelson11
07-29-2005, 05:30 AM
I,ve been at the beach since last Saturday but I loaded some 40 grain bullets last night with 6.6 and 6.7 grains of HS6. Hopefully I can test them today.

sulafool
07-29-2005, 06:30 PM
Yeeehaaaa! Those should be some hellish loads, can't wait for the report!

Rnelson11
07-30-2005, 03:12 PM
Shot the 6.6 grain and 6.7 grain loads with the 40 grain bullets today. I only got 2 readings on the 6.6s so I don't trust the data (cloudy), I will load some more today. The 6.7s shot fairly well and the readings were about what I expected. The sun came out a bit but I wasn't lined up good at first. Only read 3 out of 7. I also plan to load some more 6.7s.

6.7 gr 1979 avg/fps 1974,1967,1997

I have one comment though. The first 2 6.7s did not eject. I have a couple of thoughts but welcome ideas from anyone else. First, I have reloaded these cases 6 times and some of the primers took almost no effort to press into the case. Second, maybe the powder and bullet weight combination has reached a limit for the delayed blowback operation. Or then it could just be a fluke since the last 5 fired with no problem. I have about 20 once fired cases I may use next time.

sulafool
07-31-2005, 10:57 AM
Rnelson11,

That is *very* curious; as I reported previously I had the same problem and to a greater extent with loads that should easily have cycled the slide. Lately tho, and for whatever reason I can't explain, the problem has mainly gone away. However, I still experience failure to eject the first round of a new magazine from time to time.

Haven't figured it out yet, and it drives me nuts because it defies logic and common sense--I hate intermittent failures!

Those loads should be *way* stiff enough to work every time. I don't think the number of firings on the brass have anything to do with it as my first occurrences happened with once fired brass, coated, uncoated, whatever and no matter. It has occurred with every powder I've tried, as well.

Since we have the same symptoms, I therefore conclude it isn't a fluke. I believe we have established the the 5.7 is very tolerant of powder selection, but perhaps it is extremely sensitive to "timing". I just don't know, I've never experienced this with any other gun before.

Hopefully if others have had the same experience they will come forward and confess. By nature people don't like to complain about something they paid a lot for (excuse bad grammar, please), but maybe there is something in the design of the gun that is to blame. If so I doubt FN will ever admit it and will just say to "use only factory ammunition". HAH!!!

Rnelson11
08-06-2005, 07:59 PM
I didn't get a chance to test the 40 rounds I loaded before going to Brazil but I'll be back in 3 weeks and I'll test them. Being away from home for a month I didn't want everyone to thing I had quit. At least the Hotel here has high speed internet even though I don't understand what anyone is saying.

Rnelson11
09-06-2005, 06:10 AM
I shot 40 loads yesterday and got some good reading on most of them.

35gr V-Max
6.3 gr of HS-6 1945, 1886, 1878, 1935, 1893, 1858, 1954
6.4 gr of HS-6 2005, 2014, 1990, 1974

40gr V-Max
6.6 gr of HS-6 1923, 1983, 1895, 1995, 1870, 1948
6.7 gr of HS-6 1997, 1929, 1964, 1992, 1901, 1933, 1958

I loaded these just it get more data since I had only 3 or 4 readings on these loads. The averages only changed a little so I feel the data is good.

I didn't have any problems with the 40 grain bullets ejecting but the 35 grains only ejected about half the time. This may have been just a lack of powder since I've had no problem with 6.6 and 6.7 grains with the 35 grain bullets.

I plan to start loading more with the higher power loads to see which ones are the most reliable. I will mainly be using the 35 gr V-max with 6.7 gr of powder and the 40 gr bullets with 6.7 and maybe 6.8 gr of powder.

Rnelson11
09-08-2005, 05:54 AM
I've settled on 2 loads for the HS-6 powder. One is for a 35 grain V-Max bullet and the other is for a 40 grain V-Max bullet. I've also concuded that no crimp is needed. The biggest problem I've seem is the loose fit of the primer, so I plan to use a tiny bit of locktite on the primers after reloading the cases a couple of times.

Bullet: 35 grain V-Max
Trim casing to 1.128"
Primer: WSR
Powder: HS-6
Powder weight: 6.6 grains
COL: 1.460"
Crimp: NO
Average: 2052 fps

Bullet: 40 grain V-Max
Trim casing to 1.128"
Primer: WSR
Powder: HS-6
Powder weight: 6.7 grains
COL: 1.590"
Crimp: NO
Average: 2014 fps

Use these at your own risk, but I have used hotter loads during my tests.

sulafool
09-08-2005, 10:24 AM
Outstanding! Have you compared accuracy as well? I haven't gotten around to that part of testing yet, being so eaten up with velocity and reliability...

TacticalReload
09-08-2005, 05:47 PM
Bullet: 35 grain V-Max
Trim casing to 1.128"
Primer: WSR
Powder: HS-6
Powder weight: 6.6 grains
COL: 1.460"
Crimp: NO
Average: 2052 fps


I second this load as what I found to be best with this particular powder and bullet combo.

Rnelson11
09-09-2005, 06:29 AM
With the last 9 rounds I shot, testing reliability not accuracy (so I wasn't using the chrony), 7 of the 9 were in a 2" pattern at 45'. The other 2 were witnin 6" of the others but that was probably me since I don't see as well as I used to. I still have the target, a 10" paper plate, if you'd like to see it.

Rnelson11
09-16-2005, 05:43 AM
I finnally retired my first 50 cases after about 9 reloads. I found several (about 9 or 10) with cracks in the nect, I could see soot around the cracks. There were many more with stress cracks in the neck. I am starting over with 20 new cases and plan to watch everything, including the primer pockets a little closer. I have all 20 reloaded now and hope to test them Saturday.

tctlrld
10-25-2005, 05:33 PM
I've settled on 2 loads for the HS-6 powder. One is for a 35 grain V-Max bullet and the other is for a 40 grain V-Max bullet. I've also concuded that no crimp is needed. The biggest problem I've seem is the loose fit of the primer, so I plan to use a tiny bit of locktite on the primers after reloading the cases a couple of times.

Bullet: 40 grain V-Max
Trim casing to 1.128"
Primer: WSR
Powder: HS-6
Powder weight: 6.7 grains
COL: 1.590"
Crimp: NO
Average: 2014 fps

Use these at your own risk, but I have used hotter loads during my tests.

Thanks for putting your time into developing these loads.
I'm new to reloading for the 5.7 - I'm expecting my reload setup to come in next week. I have the same components you used, and I was curious on why you settled for the 6.7 load. Based on your numbers it seems that 6.5 came close velocity wise with a much lower SD.

By the way - do you still have the individual velocity figures for 6.3 and 6.4 respectively?

Thanks!
Matt

Rnelson11
10-28-2005, 05:33 AM
6.3gr - 1962, 1987, 1916, 1979, 1945, 1886, 1878, 1935, 1893, 1858, 1944

Even the factory loads I shot had a SD of over 30. I think it has to do with the size of the bullet and where it croses the chrony. I actually prefer the 40 grain bullets with 6.6 grains of HS6. There are just slightly slower than the factory 35 grain bullets but they are boattail and load much easier. As far as why I chose 6.6 grains, This load was made to go fast!

Dieppert
12-14-2005, 07:51 AM
Rnelson, on the load where your using the 40 grain v max, was the load very acurate,

kamo
12-14-2005, 09:39 AM
thanks Rnelson, i am a complete noob when it comes to reloading and i hope to start soon. thanks for the honest information.

Rnelson11
12-16-2005, 06:22 AM
I saw no real difference in accuracy between the 40 grain loads and the 35 grain loads as long as the speed was good. As a matter of fact I plan on only loading the 40 grain bullets since they are boattail and much longer that the 35 grains. With the 40s I can get an overall bullet length the same as factory loads.

ChuckUSA
01-16-2006, 04:22 PM
Rnelson11: Who makes reloading dies for the FiveseveN? Can you shoot me suggested sites where I can buy the dies and reloading supplies?

Thanks!
ChuckUSA

Dieppert
01-18-2006, 10:11 PM
chuck, i'm not nelson, but i bought RCBS dies from natchets, one thing i did, on the shell holder i bought the Lyman x32 shell holder, alot beefer than the rcbs shell holder

Dieppert
01-18-2006, 10:14 PM
hey nelson, i loaded up some of your 40 grain using the same reciepe as yours , except using small pistol magnum primer, see what happenss there , plus loaded some 40 grain sierra varminters, try them out to

ChuckUSA
01-18-2006, 10:23 PM
Dieppert:

I'll look in my Natchez catalog tonight. Can't wait to see what they cost!!
Thanks.
Chuck.

Rnelson11
01-19-2006, 05:48 AM
Dieppert, I've used both small rifle primers and small pistol magnum primers and saw very little difference in the two.

I also checked the Midway website for the 5.7x28 RCBS dies and it says 'comming soon'.

Dieppert
01-20-2006, 09:28 PM
i belive i bought my RCBS dies from Natchets, they had em in stock

Fuse
01-26-2006, 06:37 PM
I got mine from huntingtons

WeeScot
01-27-2006, 06:34 PM
Pardon my stupidity but what size (diameter) V-Max are you using. I measure the factory loaded ammo and it comes out .223 yet V-Max is .224. I'm confused! Any help?

748
01-27-2006, 08:12 PM
It's all the same give or take a .001''
I have seen some one measure .2235 on a pulled factory 5.7 bullet.

wildeye111
01-29-2006, 04:02 AM
Hello,

Thanks for the info Nelson, very parallel with my reloading progress. I bought dies from Huntingtons, Midwayusa and Midsouthshooterssupply ..Midsouth had the best prices. their site is: http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com
I bought the full length, neck and small base die sets.


748 is correct, .224 or .223 is basicly referenced the same way.

WeeScot
01-30-2006, 07:23 PM
Thanks much on the bullet size. I'm really careful on this stuff. I like my head where it is.

Christopher Hollingswoth
02-09-2006, 08:02 PM
Has anyone tried hodgdon lil gun I was wanting to try it with 45grain barnes solids but didn't know where to start with grains of powder

Evan Stevens
02-09-2006, 10:33 PM
I don't think you want to use Lilgun for the 5.7. HS6 seems to be one of the best with VV 3N37. H110 is not a good choice either. I am trying Power Pistol for 35gr loads.

748
02-09-2006, 11:22 PM
I was going to work up regular 45gr soft points and these:
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=112484
We might beable to get about 2000fps out of them.
I was going to use AA No. 9 for 33gr to 40gr bullets and maybe try it on 45gr bullets.
I have every thing but the gun now. Ebay brass, Midway dies, bullets, powders, primers, Presses.

Rnelson11
02-12-2006, 05:54 AM
I've been testing a lot lately and mostly using light loads with the 55 grain bullets. I ran out of reloading brass the other day and decided to shoot 30 of my standard 6.6 grain HS6 reloads (I have about 200). As I was prepairing the cases I noticed that the primer pochets were not streached. Actually I haven't seen any streached primer pockets since I backed down from 6.9 grains of HS6. So, I've decided that 6.7 grains of HS6 must be about the Max safe load for both the 35 and 40 grain V-Max bullets. I think the gun will take up to 7.0 grains but there are definately signs of high pressure.

Medula Oblongata
02-12-2006, 11:18 AM
I run my 40grn loads up to a maximum of 6.5grns of HS6. At 6.5 the recoil causes my hand to sting a little bit and I have experienced many pierced primers (REM 6 1/2 SR and CCI 350SR) and several times I have found my brass with the primer completely missing. I think that the primer problem is related to the thickness of the primer cup and material. I have not experienced pierced primers or missing primers with REM 7 1/2 SR BR and Winschester WSR primers, but the recoil is still objectionable and makes my hand sting.

I also find that the usable life of my brass at 6.5 is only about 6 reloads before I start to experience problems with extraction and resizing, and an occasisonal piece with obvious cracks, flame etching near the extraction rebate, and very rarely, torn rims. At a lighter charge of 6.3, I am now on my 10th reloading of 150 pieces of brass (I started with about 200 at this charge weight). This brass is fairly soft and thin and I am quite amazed that it is lasting as long as it is.

I have backed my 40grn rounds down to 6.3 max, and my 35 to 6.5.

Another good powder that I use quite frequently is RamShot True-Blue. I love to use it with 46grn JHP winchester "bagged" bullets @ 6.4grns and 1.5845" OAL. It is fairly hot, but even the thin REM 6 1/2 primers show no high pressure signs. I think the True Blue could be pushed well over 7, but I am happy with the performance I am getting at 6.4.

I use Viht 3N37 exclusively for my 55grn loads. Right now my favorite is 4.0 3N37.

748
02-12-2006, 01:50 PM
If the gun is stinging your had that means it is about time to get a stronger recoil spring.
It would be nice if some one offered some.

Rnelson11
02-13-2006, 05:42 AM
I use 6.6 grains of HS6 for my standard 35 and 40 grain loads. I like to 40s so much I haven't loaded any 35s for a while. Besides, I can buy them in 250 boxes. I haven't seen any problems with the 6.6 grain loads but that's why we reload. .2 Grains is not very much especially with the HS6 since the granules are so big. My scale could easily be .2 grains different from yours, Medula. I did see problems when I went to 6.9 grains, the primer pockets streached and when I loaded them again I actually had primers fall out while chambering. This to me was a sign of over pressure.

Medula Oblongata
02-13-2006, 08:46 AM
I have a series of check weights for my scale, and I verify the check weights with two different scales (both Lyman/Ohaus M5 scales I bought in the late 70's, both read exactly the same) so I don't think that it is the scale. I have had in the past instances with Hodgdon powders where different lot numbers had a significant difference in density to weight. I bought all my HS6 about 10 years ago, and all of the 20 or so pounds I own are from the same lot number. Perhaps that is what the difference is. Either density or perhaps my powder has started to decay and burns a little faster or slower. Who knows... Might even be that my barrel is slightly undersized :)

Rnelson11
02-13-2006, 07:56 PM
Still, only .2 grains is not much.

user426
04-15-2007, 07:43 PM
Medula....I have a few pounds of HS-6 and a few 40 grn VMax.....what would be your STARTING load and what OAL.....also, what primer do you recommend.

thanks


(moved to the right thread-btown02)

btown02
04-15-2007, 07:49 PM
Medula....I have a few pounds of HS-6 and a few 40 grn VMax.....what would be your STARTING load and what OAL.....also, what primer do you recommend.

Most of the questions you are asking have already been asked and answered if you'll just look around. There is a sticky thread for HS6 to read instead of posting the questions about it in the wrong thread.