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gundoc
11-03-2006, 05:56 PM
http://www.jibjab.com/originals/originals/jibjab/movieid/122

Medula Oblongata
11-04-2006, 12:31 AM
Whats to think about?

That this is a thinly disguised political ad?

Or that free-market economies seek the most profit?

I personally hate Wally World, although I am a stock holder. Figure that out.

I am tired of the whole wal-mart bashing crowd. 75% of them are fat, lazy, disgruntled union factory workers, and honestly, who gives a rats azz what they think anyway?

:horse:

gundoc
11-04-2006, 01:33 AM
screw the union...,and screw profit margins...is there any pride left in this country? isn't anything made here anymore? am i the only one who looks for the made in the U.S.A sticker on products ? in the other post it was asked how could the students clap for Kerry...maybe its because 90% of the population don't give a shit anymore, or dont know any better....maybe i should join them

Medula Oblongata
11-04-2006, 08:45 AM
You had better believe that I look for "made in the USA" on labels... Guess what? Nothing is anymore.

Its easy to say "screw the profit margins" when there is a surplus in your bank account, you have clothes to wear, and a car to drive.

Were we to stop buying all imports.. Well the computer you are typing on would cease to exist too. So would your car, any car, they all have foreign manufactured parts.. Wonder why? Cause' nobody wants to pay $60,000 for a two door commuter car.

Wy do things "made in the USA" cost so much more than elsewhere? Because "our" union brothers feel that they deserve $65 an hour for assembling brake components, 36 paid days off, 100% provided heath, dental, vision, "no lay-off" or firing policies, and don't feel that they should have to perform to receive that. What I just quoted is the UAW contract for Ford, GM, Diamler/Chrysler.

They can't be fired, can't be laid off, can't be disciplined. They have more vacation days than any 3 people I know...

Scream about "sweat shop labor" in the third world.. Ok. Here's the facts.

Those people BEG to have that job. They want to work 60 hours per week. They want to work on Sunday. They want to be able to feed their families. These factory jobs provide them the opportunity to do that. Without them MILLIONS of people would starve to death.

That is the truth, like it or not.

Could you imagine what the cost of a can of beans would be if there were no competetion?

How about the cost of a pair of socks.

You would have to pull the 70 hour work week just to pay for the necessities of life.

Wal-Mart provides a service that people want. Its true that when Sam Walton was alive Wal-Mart's policy was "buy American" and as you walked into any store you would see the "American products" signs. Wal-Mart alone kept a number of smaller factories in business. However after his death the small companies tried a power play of demanding Wal-Mart pay more than the previously agreed upon price... Wal-Mart's response was to buy foreign imports.

Blame the greedy factory owners. Blame the greedy Wal-Mart board of directors. Blame the Unions... But stand in front of the mirror and blame the true guilty party.

I personally have to shop at Wally World. I can't afford to shop at Neiman Marcus.. Oh wait, they don't sell anything made in the US either. What they have is overpriced clothes made in the same sweat shops 1000% higher in cost than Wal-Mart...


Nope, I'll lay the blame where it really belongs.. At the feet of all American's who don't want to work 70 or 80 hours a week just to survive. Nor should we have to. We have the economic power to use the third world for our manufacturing while we create the capitol that supports the rest of the world.. Its sound economic principal.

BTW, who is it that manufactures the weapons that we have created a fan club for anyway? FN Gruppe of Herstal Belgium...

gundoc
11-08-2006, 02:53 AM
MO there is more to it.everytime i look at the big picture its not good. for example i live in farming country..did you know our tax dollars are spent every year paying farmers NOT to grow certain crops ! so we can SPEND more money to import peanuts, corn ect..from some other country ...it looks to me there is a big difference in what we export to what we import. everytime some nation has a problem the U.S is the first one to step up to the plate...been that way for decades. we forgive trillions of dollars of debt that other nations owe.whos paying for it?. where we will be in 20 more years? making
brake shoes for Mexican car corporations for 6 bucks an hour? ARE WE THE NEXT THIRD WORLD? since ww2 we went from a nation of creators/lenders to a nation of importers/debt. as for FN i like their weapons...but they did a hell of a job with Winchester didnt they? (not that i blame FN im well aware Winchester went through a few different owners), but theres another American Icon sold out, and gone,whos next Colt? I drive American trucks and cars..never owned a import, and never will...i do what i can but im pissing in the wind..you pick up a product, and 90% of the time its made in China ...its a sad sad state of affairs...your right about my computer..im a SONY fan ...i spend 2+ grand for a top of the line VAIO ...i get the thing home ..unpack it .look for the made in Japan sticker....guess what.the tower says.MADE IN FREAKIN CHINA ...at least the monitor is made in Japan ...with U.S.A componets !!

Solidarnosc
11-08-2006, 07:02 AM
If it can be of some comfort to some of the PS90 buyers out there with a guilty feeling. Belgium is one of the few countries in the world who actually has a trade deficit with the US. ;)

Megatron
11-08-2006, 08:41 AM
We can't put all of the blame on the workers for the loss of U.S. jobs. Government regulations and greedy executives share a good bit of the blame as well.

gundoc
11-08-2006, 06:26 PM
If it can be of some comfort to some of the PS90 buyers out there with a guilty feeling. Belgium is one of the few countries in the world who actually has a trade deficit with the US. ;) this is true. heres a link for China http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c5700.html#2006 .maybe i look at things from a slightly different perspective ..1950-1953 Korean war 40.8 billion dollars spent fighting the spread of communism 54,246 Americans K.I.A 103,284 Wounded.......1957-1975 Vietnam same thing 111 billion dollars 58,219 K.I.A 153,356 Wounded lets not forget the Cold War from 1945-1991 at a cost of 5.5 trillion ...all in the name of fighting Communism ...2006 ..we can't buy a Cuban Cigar because of Castro's Communist policies, but we allow the above to go on year after year...Ronald Regan must be doing back flips in his grave...yes somebody is getting rich...it sure isnt the American taxpayer

Megatron
11-08-2006, 06:48 PM
this is true. heres a link for China http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c5700.html#2006 .maybe i look at things from a slightly different perspective ..1950-1953 Korean war 40.8 billion dollars spent fighting the spread of communism 54,246 Americans K.I.A 103,284 Wounded.......1957-1975 Vietnam same thing 111 billion dollars 58,219 K.I.A 153,356 Wounded lets not forget the Cold War from 1945-1991 at a cost of 5.5 trillion ...all in the name of fighting Communism ...2006 ..we can't buy a Cuban Cigar because of Castro's Communist policies, but we allow the above to go on year after year...Ronald Regan must be doing back flips in his grave...yes somebody is getting rich...it sure isnt the American taxpayer

We've been flooded the Chinese-made products since Nutjob Nancy's idol, Billary Klinton, got real cozy with them. Who do you think contributed a large portion of funding toward Klinton's 1996 presidential reelection bid? That's right, the Chinese government. After ol' draft dodger got in again, they've suddenly got technology to make their nukes much more accurate and most favored nation trade status, which means that tariffs are much lower for their stuff coming into this country.

tomrowelljr
11-08-2006, 07:07 PM
Just to chime in here, but when i go to the mom and pop owned hardware stores when we go to our deer lease, they sell the exact same brands and merchandise as you can find in a Wallmart. and it is usually a little more expensive cuz they cant but it in the bulk that walmart does. There is no doubt that there are some things wrong with government regulations and lots of things wrong with the unions (personel experience) but as long as people continue to buy, they will continue to sell, And there are very few places you can go that arent buying their goods from overseas, because its what makes sense from a business perspective.

Medula Oblongata
11-08-2006, 07:52 PM
Man, I hate doing this...

Nixon went to China and started trading with the communists. Nixon granted them "Most favorable nation" trading status that has been extended by every president since then, and last I counted that was 4 Republican and 2 Democrat.


I grew up on a farm, I also live in farm country, and am actively involved as a member of my local Grange.

Here are the facts about farm subsidies.

1. Subsidies NOT to grow are payed to farmers to keep the grain supply low, so that bread etc. costs more. This puts more money in the farmers pocket. In fact, so much, that the small family farms are still in operation. Were the grain prices to drop drastically because of a glut of grain, the small farmer couldn't make a living and mega-farming corporations would take over. Care to guess on what continent the mega-farming corporations reside? Europe and Asia. So what happens when we have no American farmers left and our enemies decide to starve us out?

2. Dairy subsidies keep small dairymen (less than 50 head of milking cows) in business. 80% of dairy products come from small (less than 50 milking head) dairymen. Without the small guys, we would have to import.

3. It is illegal to import grain (with the exception of from Canada, and then only to co-ops that have members there) into the US. In fact, we export 100,000,000,000 bushels of grain every year to countries like Egypt, Russia, CHINA, most of central and south America, etc...

4. Imports of fruits and vegetables are because we don't have the farming space in California to produce more. You can't grow grapes and avacado's in Arizona. You can't grow lettuce in Washington. You can't grow melons and cucmbers in Nebraska. We have a higher demand than we can produce for because of a lack of suitable farming climates.

5. In 1940 70% of Americans lived on the farm. A family farm produced everything that family needed to survive by either growing and raising it themselves, or selling the surplus to aquire those things they needed. The second world war changed that. We went from an agrarian society to an heavily industrialized society. After the war only 19% of farmboys returned to the family farm... Jobs had to be "created" for them. In the 50's and 60's we were at out height of industrial production because we were producing materials to BUILD with, for ourselves and the rest of the world's infastructure.

Now the rest of the world has caught up with our manufacturing ability because we made the machines and sold to them the equipment necessary to manufacture for themselves.

We got rich helping them become self suffecient. Now we don't have the foreign demand for our manufacturing anymore, because we helped them to do it themselves.

Seems to me that its a natural market adjustment. If we are to survive we will need to return to an agrarian society.


Foriegn cars...

Ford light trucks: Made in Canada from Mexican parts
Ford cars: Assembled in the US, Canada, Mexico from 60% foreign parts
GM Trucks: Assembled in Mexico, Canada, US from 60 - 70% foreign parts
GM cars: Assembled in the US and Canada with primarily foreign parts
Diamler/Chrysler (Dodge, Jeep, Eagle, Chrysler)
German company
Automobiles assembled in Mexico, Canada, US with 40% foreign parts.

Toyota
16 models MADE ENTIRELY of US parts and ENTIRELY assembled in the US

Honda
2/3rds of models assembled in the US from 50% domestic parts.

Hyundai / Kia
Their vehicle test track is in the US, in California City, CA. All new vehicles are tested there.

50% of their vehicles are assembled in the us using 60% domestic parts...

Seems to me that ALL auto manufacturers are "foreign" companies and "imports" to boot...

I have always owned domestic vehicles, but my Dodge Grand Caravan will be the last... I'm gonna buy a Toyota mini-van next. Better construction, better economy, better reliability, 2/3rds the price AND MADE COMPLETELY IN THE US WITH DOMESTIC MADE PARTS.

Fighting the cold war has nothing to do with market economics. We spent TRILLIONS on foreign nations, building up the Armies of Saddam Hussein, Edie Amin, Daniel Ortega.. etc. We stole TRILLIONS from American taxpayers to fund other countries military ambitions INCLUDING AFGANISTAN. BTW Ronald Reagan not only renewed China's "most favored nation" trading status, he QUADRUPLED the allowable disparity on imports from them and exports to them. Thats correct, he quadrupled the trade deficit with communist China.

Just a few things to think about...

btown02
11-08-2006, 07:56 PM
Good post MO.

Medula Oblongata
11-08-2006, 08:07 PM
Continued-

Winchester has not existed since the late 1800's in effect. Olin corporation (CCI, SPEER, WINCHESTER) has owned the Winchester name since the 1930's. They were incapable of making a go of the division since they purchased it. In fact Winchester didn't make a penny of profit during the SECOND WORLD WAR. Not a penny. Nor have they made a cent since then.

FN licensed the name and manufacturing space from Olin, and even the Belgian Master firearms makers couldn't turn a red cent. Why is this? Because the market spoke. people didn't buy Winchester rifles. Don't know why, I have several, and they're all fine weapons.

Could it have something to do with competetion? Perhaps. Savage turns out a number of rifles of superior quality and 2/3rds the price. Marlin supassed Winchester in lever-gun sales by 2000% because they had a stronger, more refined product. Remington's 700 blew Winchester out of the market on reliability and accuracy at 1/2 the cost. Browning Rifles were bought by the truckload as they provided a superior product at the same price with much better furniture.

The Winchester factory had not been remodeled since the 40's, nor had its machine tools. They could not compete, so FN did the only thing it could, so as to save themselves from loosing money. They listened to the market.

Its good economics. Its a really bad idea to try and prop up a failing business by taking money from one division just to keep the doors open on another.

Winchester's closing had NOTHING to do with FN. It should have disappeared the FIRST time it went bankrupt, and that was BEFORE 1900...

Place the blame for Winchester's demise where it belongs.. On "Winchester's" inability to be profitable in the last century.

The market has spoken, don't shoot the messenger that brings you the news (FN).

btown02
11-08-2006, 08:21 PM
Still good. :D

m1p90
11-08-2006, 09:27 PM
I think it was Diane Fienstien or some other Dem that pushed through a law that prohibited large amounts of guns to be sold overseas. Winchester was selling LOTS of rifles overseas and this new law forbade them, soooooooooooo they went bankrupt. No sales=no income.

Megatron
11-08-2006, 09:44 PM
MO, those two posts are very good.

Medula Oblongata
11-08-2006, 10:22 PM
I think it was Diane Fienstien or some other Dem that pushed through a law that prohibited large amounts of guns to be sold overseas. Winchester was selling LOTS of rifles overseas and this new law forbade them, soooooooooooo they went bankrupt. No sales=no income.

Wrong. Winchester's primary sales have always been domestic.

Before the Great War of 1915, Winchester spent millions building a factory in England, and millions more trying to convince the Crown to purchase their rifles. It never happened, and Winchester has never been the same since. But that was after their second bankrupcy and before their third when Olin purchased it.

The number of units exported overseas was a miniscule portion of their overall sales, and remained so until their untimate demise. There never was, nor is there currently, a Federal law that prohibits the sale of sporting arms overseas by arms manufacturers. On the contrary, its easier for a person in a gun friendly foreign land to purchase a firearm from an American manufacturer than it is for us.

Its easy to play the "blame game" and accuse the libtards for the buisness' failure, but those are not the facts. The market decided on 4 different occaisions that Winchester didn't deserve to be on the market, so to speak.

Don't confuse rhetoric with the truth, lest you become a spin doctor like the politico's.

gundoc
11-08-2006, 11:38 PM
In fact Winchester didn't make a penny of profit during the SECOND WORLD WAR. Not a penny. . why? maybe ww2 had something to do with it..they put the national defence before profits. could it be possible .an AMERICAN COMPANY thinking about AMERICANS?..FN owned Winchester ..didnt they make the decisions? guess it didnt make enough $$$ for them huh? but im quite sure they make enough with the FS2000's not knocking them but is it really worth 2k+ retail...plastic costs must have gone up! sure looks like theres enough profit built into those rifles..I dont blame FN for anything they just happen to be a good example. Years ago i had a Winchester model 70 super grade..i would put that American made firearm up against anything that ever came out of Beligum or Savage or Remington or Browning .as for myself i dont care if it was the Dem's or the Rep's who started the trade deficit with China .they will be the next #1 super power, and were gonna pay for them to get there. i guess the 100,000 G.Is who died fighting the commies really dont matter either..we are all being sold out, .................................................... as for Toyota
16 models MADE ENTIRELY of US parts and ENTIRELY assembled in the US

Honda
2/3rds of models assembled in the US from 50% domestic parts.

Hyundai / Kia
Their vehicle test track is in the US, in California City, CA. All new vehicles are tested there.

those are all foreign owned Corp's they are here for one reason the CHEAP American labor (non union) they are doing to us what we do to the Mexicans ,and if you do some digging you will find out FN had a big problem with the union at Winchester...one of the reasons they just closed up shop... by the way long ago in the mid 80's i worked for Nissan Corp in Cali..where the cars were offloaded ..we had to retrofit them to U.S standards..headlights , window glass ,bumpers ,and i can say from personal experience that working for them SUCKED !!! the supervisors all were from overseas ,and we were treated like dirt....i will stick with my Chevys and Fords , and my overpriced American made Harley

Medula Oblongata
11-09-2006, 01:47 PM
In fact Winchester didn't make a penny of profit during the SECOND WORLD WAR. Not a penny. . why? maybe ww2 had something to do with it..they put the national defence before profits. could it be possible .an AMERICAN COMPANY thinking about AMERICANS?..

Nope, it just isn't the case. They weren't able to turn out a product for the first two years of their "no bid, charge anything you want" contract, that was accepted by the ordinance inspectors. Their tooling had to be upgraded to manufacture Garand rifles, and when it was upgraded by the tax payers, the operators were incapable of turning out a usable product. Savage didn't have that problem, Singer Sewing Machine Corp. didn't have that problem, Springflield didn't have that problem...

Their inability to make money was because they were incapable of making rifles quickly, effeciently, and correctly. Nothing more. Anyone that could put a lathe and milling machine into operation made M O N E Y during the war, and in fact were known as "war babies." Everyone got rich during the war as long as you could turn out a product that the war department needed.

FN owned Winchester ..didnt they make the decisions? guess it didnt make enough $$$ for them huh? but im quite sure they make enough with the FS2000's not knocking them but is it really worth 2k+ retail...plastic costs must have gone up! sure looks like theres enough profit built into those rifles..I dont blame FN for anything they just happen to be a good example.

The market decided for FN. It is NOT sound business to allow a perpetual loss from one division and prop it up with another. In fact it many cases its illegal.. You just can't take the money from one division and "give" it to another. It must be a legal loan, with repayment requirements, at a favorable interest rate. The lender may only make the loan if the lendee is CAPABLE of repaying the loan. Winchester division was INCAPABLE of doing so, therefore FN would have had to lie on the loan documents and take the chance of being prosecuted.

Is the FS2000 worth $2,000? Obviously the market thinks so. They can't make enough to supply the demand. Same thing with the PS90.

I don't see any example in what you have stated, other than the example of responsible business practices and business ethics.

Years ago i had a Winchester model 70 super grade..i would put that American made firearm up against anything that ever came out of Beligum or Savage or Remington or Browning .

Never have I said the SUPER GRADE rifles weren't good quality. But the market didn't like their standard grade, obviously. My standard grade Win 94 is a piece of junk. It came from the factory headspaced 4,000ths to large, the bolt wouldn't lock up correctly, the lever would bind, the finish wore off the first time I carried it, and the stock cracked... Not a good start. It cost me $350 to have it all fixed (it was made in 62 and never fired. It sat in a temperature and humidity controled vault until I took it out last year, still in the origional box.)

My Buffalo Bill Cody Commerative carbine was little better. Headspace issues, bolt lockup, etc. It was made in 68 and also never fired until last year. Another $40 in parts to fix the headspace issue and another $80 for a replacement buttstock.

However, my Browning A Bolt, 1960 manufacture, has never needed any type of smithing or repair, and it has 10K or so rounds through the barrel. The wood isn't as pretty as the commemerative rifle, but it also didn't crack and warp.

All companies turn out inferior and superior models, it just seems that you never knew what you were going to get with a Winchester. Inferiority was not the expetion, but regularly the rule. It was hit or miss, and most didn't want to take the chance.

as for myself i dont care if it was the Dem's or the Rep's who started the trade deficit with China .they will be the next #1 super power, and were gonna pay for them to get there. i guess the 100,000 G.Is who died fighting the commies really dont matter either..we are all being sold out,

C'mon, what does economics have to do with "100,000 men that died fighting communists?" You are confusing the issue.

those are all foreign owned Corp's they are here for one reason the CHEAP American labor (non union) they are doing to us what we do to the Mexicans...
American labor is NOT cheap. We are the most expensive in the world. And ALL labor at EVERY auto assembly and parts manufacture company in the US are UAW or IAM union members. They are not doing to us what we are doing to the Mexicans. Mexicans and Mexico profit hugely from auto manufacture, we don't because of taxes and unionized labor.

BTW who are the major stock holders in DIAMLER/CHRYSLER? FORD? GM? Here's a hint, they don't speaka da english.

],and if you do some digging you will find out FN had a big problem with the union at Winchester...one of the reasons they just closed up shop...
They sure did. The workers wanted more money even thought the company wasn't solvent. Not solvent = layoffs. The Union threatened to walk out and protest, so FN closed the UNPROFITABLE branch. You can't keep it open with a full workforce when you only have the budget for 1/3rd. If that 1/3rd refuses to work... You see where I'm going with this??

by the way long ago in the mid 80's i worked for Nissan Corp in Cali..where the cars were offloaded ..we had to retrofit them to U.S standards..headlights , window glass ,bumpers ,and i can say from personal experience that working for them SUCKED !!! the supervisors all were from overseas ,and we were treated like dirt....

Ever worked for an American company? They treat their workers like dirt too.. I'm not sure what this really has to do with the conversation. I understand you anger towards them, though. I too have had intimate dealings with foreign "supervisors" once or twice in my life.

i will stick with my Chevys and Fords , and my overpriced American made Harley

Good for you! I'm not. They are inferior products that are overpriced, IMHO. And since they use many of the same parts as the "imports" which are totally and completely made here, it make economic sence to me.

But to each his own, and I do not fault you for living up to your convictions.