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View Full Version : LEGALITY of AP Ammo Ownership


susan28
07-02-2005, 11:50 AM
just found something on the Glock Faq stating that only "manufacturing and selling" AP ammo is illegal, and that "possessing and selling" is ok.

does this mean that if some ss190, once beyond FN's original point-of-sale, was sold to the public, that this would be legal, and that it would also be legal for a civilian to possess it?

it doesn't seem likely to happen, but as it is even if it was offerred to me i'd tend to nervously decline.

also according to the definition below i don't know why we can't buy pre-loaded (i've seen the tips but not the ammo) 7.62x51 AP, i read somewhere where it is classified as "can be used in a handgun" but i've never heard of such handgun.

here's the whole blurb:

LEGALITY OF ARMOR PIERCING AMMO OWNERSHIP

A. The writer who pointed out that federal law prohibits only manufacturing and selling (not possessing and selling) "armor piercing ammunition," is correct.

Addressing some of the points made by others commenting on this subject:

1. SS109 is not "armor piercing ammunition." "Armor piercing ammunition" is defined in federal law
[18 U.S.C. 921(17)(B)] as "a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and
which is constructed" of various metals harder than lead, or "a full jacketed projectile larger than .22
caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25
percent of the total weight of the projectile." SS109 bullets have a steel tip under the jacket, but they
have a lead core.

2. 7.62x39 iron core ammo was declared "AP" when someone put together an "AR-15" type
handgun in that caliber. At that point, the projectile fit the language about "may be used in a handgun"
and that was all she wrote.

p99guy
07-02-2005, 12:55 PM
The rub to that is that State law takes over where federal ends, and depending in which state you reside it could be far more restrictive than the base federal model....so take a look at what your state penal code says...
For the most part there are few 7.62x51mm(.308win) pistols...but they do exsist and most are either Thompson Center Contender single shots, or very close in concept...they are hunting pistols....this is no 7.62x51 "carbon 15" type semi auto(guess it would be called a carbon 10) being offered for sale as of yet to my knowledge.

susan28
07-02-2005, 01:39 PM
ok p99guy, i'll check the florida laws and if it allows possession then imma come to Texas and buy you dinner in exchange for a lil tour of the dept armoury :)

i think our laws might have that loophole closed, though, because awhile back when i got my G20 i asked the range/gunshop if they had any armour-piercing ammo (true story, with a totally straight face mind you, lol.. hey i wanted to see what was available if i was gonna drop major $$$ on a pistol!!) and they got all nervous and slid a copy of the florida statute across the counter to me, and i didn't scrutinse it lawyer-style, but i took that as a "no", hehe.. that was my baptism into the world of political red tape. it didn't even occur to me that it might be illegal. what did i know? i figured citizens could have whatever they could afford and oneday i get to thinking, "i've got a few bucks and i think i'd like something a lil more powerful", and stepped up to the counter and freaked them out :)

that same range, when i got the FsN, wouldn't let me take my CCW course with it, saying, "only one person in florida is licensed to carry that, and you can't shoot that here, it's a *rifle* bullet!!" .. i stopped going there, hehe, i think i scare them.. i drive a lil further to a cool place in ft lauderdale that just said, "hope you brought yer own ammo!"

and grrrrr frikkin' Contenders... like nerds blowing the grade curve, lol... (not that i can talk, i was one of them.. always unpopular at test time)..

p99guy
07-02-2005, 03:52 PM
In a perfect world, if you could legally have a firearm in the first place...what you fed to it would be of no matter......I would caution on tracer ammo in hot /dry conditions however.
lol our deptment armory is the size of a closet, most things go home/ride in the cars with the deputies. Its mainly ammo thats in there (and a rack for 12 longarms.)
In Texas, while you couldnt use the five seven to take your CHL test as the bore is too small(has to be at least .380acp, NO .22's ,even a five seven). But no problem after that to carry it on the CHL

susan28
07-02-2005, 04:30 PM
Its mainly ammo thats in there (and a rack for 12 longarms.)
In Texas, while you couldnt use the five seven to take your CHL test as the bore is too small(has to be at least .380acp, NO .22's ,even a five seven). But no problem after that to carry it on the CHL

yaaaaaa it's the AMMO i wanted to see, lol.. (ie: if i could possess ss190 in my state then maybe the Chief would hook me up!) .. but like i said i don't think we can have it here. i know a LEO here who has it legally and he told me as much, but i thought he was referring to the federal statute.

and maybe that minimum-calibre requirement is what they meant when they said i couldn't get permitted for it.. because just like your state we can carry anything we want once licensed. they probably just want to make sure you can handle some recoil..

susan28
07-02-2005, 06:03 PM
OK here's the Florida spin: (asterisks my accent)

790.31 Armor-piercing or exploding ammunition prohibited.--

(1) As used in this section, the term:

(a) "Armor-piercing bullet" means any bullet which has a steel inner core or core of equivalent hardness *and* a truncated cone *and* which is designed for use in a handgun as an armor-piercing or metal-piercing bullet.

the ss190 does NOT have a truncated cone, and according to their use of the word "and" it must have BOTH the steel core AND a truncated cone. "your honour, i move to be allowed to act as my own attorney!!" :)


(b) Any person who possesses an armor-piercing bullet or exploding bullet with knowledge of its armor-piercing or exploding capabilities loaded in a handgun is guilty of a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

ss190 is AP? hmm news to me ;) also, it *might* be saying that it must be loaded in a handgun ("but your honour that's a P90" or "but it wasn't *in* the gun ") but i think it means "knowledge of what it can do if one loads it into a handgun" .. however if a bullet is merely loaded into a handgun but not fired then it has no capabilities at all, AP or otherwise. heh, i should've been a lawyer..

dunno y'all.. i don't have the deep pockets to be the test case but to my eyes this both exempts the ss190 and is borderline unenforceable even if it doesn't.


Copyright 1995-2005 The Florida Legislature Privacy Statement Contact Us

Inti
11-08-2005, 04:43 PM
Sorry I'm new and I'm about to get a Five-seveN.

I checked the NRA gun law summary for Illinois, and it didn't mention anything about AP ammo, does anyone know of any laws about it in IL?

susan28
11-08-2005, 05:03 PM
i did a web search on "florida ammo laws" to see their statutes, try it for Illinois and see what you can find. or try typing in something like illinois.gov. just look for the government site for your state.

btown02
11-08-2005, 05:12 PM
The way I read that in Florida you can possess the AP round, just not loaded in a handgun unless exempt. That is unless you have a few years you would like to donate to the State. :D

susan28
11-08-2005, 05:35 PM
i was kinda banking on the tip shape. florida law specifically says "truncated cone" as part of the definition, and the 190 is pointed, not TC. but you might run afoul of federal law in the actual obtaining of it ("fun with the commerce clause").

btown02
11-08-2005, 05:41 PM
Susan, the part (b) would be the part that would bite you. Knowing it is "AP" no matter what the shape would qualify under that section and be a third degree felony. There again unless you are one of the exempt people. You really would not want to place yourself in that position. But if you find any you can possess it and not violate any Florida laws. You just couldn't load it in the gun or shoot it. :D

susan28
11-08-2005, 08:06 PM
yes i considered that part, too: "knowingly" .. of course that could also work in one's favour if one could successfully feign ignorance. depends on if it says "and" or "or". i'd have to go back and look, it's been awhile since my research.

it's an interestingly written law, and florida's a real gun-friendly state, so the "knowingly" part may actually have been inserted to make the law harder to enforce rather than easier, something a swing-vote pro-gun legislator demanded be added before they'd sign it.

but if it was written as a catch-all, then even ss192/195, or 7.62 Tok shooters could be pounced-on if it could be proved that the person "knew" what they were capable of, even though all 3 are legal to sell, own, and shoot.

thankfully i'm just an innocent maiden who is ignorant of such things, but am nonetheless comforted by having a FsN under my pillow and a case of '192 in the safe :)

btown02
11-08-2005, 08:33 PM
What you say is true. As for the "knowingly" part be careful. On the web you never know who you're talking to or who might be a LEO from your State. :D

susan28
11-09-2005, 03:09 AM
yep it's a jungle out here, though most LEO's i know are very FsN-friendly.

re-reading it, i think the "knowledge" that one must have is the knowledge that the round meets the descriptions set forth in (a), not knowledge of performance "potential" (which the Bradys are trying to remedy on the federal level with the PLEA Act). i think this because (a) sets forth the definitions of the language used in (b).

so i think even non-exempt floridians are ok with their 192/195 regardless of how educated a consumer they are, but please don't take my word for it as i'm not a lawyer.

namekid
02-13-2006, 04:22 PM
I don't know about any of you but, one guy at a gun show actually offered me ONE box of ss190 recently in Virginia. I was not really interested since I do not know Maryland Law that well. Anyway, I asked him the price and he said "$450 and I know a guy on the web who got $600 for a box". Looking at what Impact Guns lists its price for sale to the police, I just about choked. IF you want to get ss190, you WILL pay a premium and then where would you shoot it? Would you even want to at $9 per round?

btown02
02-13-2006, 04:29 PM
I don't know about any of you but, one guy at a gun show actually offered me ONE box of ss190 recently in Virginia. I was not really interested since I do not know Maryland Law that well. Anyway, I asked him the price and he said "$450 and I know a guy on the web who got $600 for a box". Looking at what Impact Guns lists its price for sale to the police, I just about choked. IF you want to get ss190, you WILL pay a premium and then where would you shoot it? Would you even want to at $9 per round?
On the "open" market the SS190 usually goes for $10-15 per round. People are willing to pay that for it because that's the only way they can get it. And you're right, at those prices it's not for target practice.

tqtran
02-21-2006, 10:16 PM
As for the "knowingly" part be careful.


Yes, becareful. A Superior Court Judge friend of mine once told me "It is your duty to know the law, ignorance is no excuse." http://www.lordsofthebattlefield.com/forum/images/smiles/rulez.gif

edit : and when I say "duty" I mean the legal definition from Blacks Law not Websters.

susan28
02-22-2006, 09:16 AM
well as a civvie it's kind of a moot point for me as i doubt any will ever cross my path but in the wake of all the controversy it's interesting to examine the applicable laws themselves. it's like an education in legal red tape.. yeek..

btown02
02-22-2006, 04:01 PM
I think there is nothing more to be gained from this thread.