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View Full Version : Tyler Tx Courthouse shootout video


p99guy
07-30-2006, 08:50 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORUQjp5_dq4&search=gunfight

This was the one where the soon to be ex husband had on two bullet resistant vests and a semi auto AK...and killed the CHL that was armed with a M1911 that tried to save the day.....you get to see the suspect taken out with a round from a AR15 to the head.

Medula Oblongata
07-30-2006, 09:28 AM
The concerned citizen who attempted to stop this murderer is a true hero. He did what others often bloviate of being willing to do: Strap on, step up, and place yourself in harms way for the benefeit of others you have never even met.

General George S. Patton sums it up best. "It is foolish and wicked to mourn the death of these men; instead we should thank God that such men lived."

A tragic end to an honorable man, but his death most likely saved the lives of countless citizens on that street. If this hero didn't step up, who would have?

Always remember: "If not me, then whom? If not now, then when?" - JFK

and

"The only thing that evil needs to succeed, is for good men to stand idle and do nothing." - Edmund Burke

What will you do when your time comes? Will you strap on and step up? Or will you cower and hope that by luck you survive the day?

I for one hope that when my time comes to prove my mettle, I have half the courage of this hero. If I didn't, how could I go home to my wife and children, look them in the eye, and account myself to be any kind of man?

I am grateful that this MAN lived. His death was courageous and in the service of others. There is no more noble an end to a man.

p99guy
07-30-2006, 09:35 AM
* we also wish that he would have had at that moment , a Five Seven full of SS190 instead of the pistol he had.(or a FAL)

Medula Oblongata
07-30-2006, 10:20 AM
In this situation, I would wish for an entire platoon of battle-hardened para-troopers with M14's and APIT's, and a land-mine field in his path...

Unfortunatly, this citizen was (armed) to combat the average threat: an un-armored goon attempting simple thuggery, not an armored, hardened-killer, assaultin' a government building with criminal intent.

I too wish he had a Five-seveN with SS190, but in this situation (the BG wearing TWO vests) would it have made any difference? He could also have attempted a head-shot. But that would be a nearly impossible feat worthy of a great pistolero such as Musilek. But an average citizen shaking with fear, drawing his piece and aiming center mass, hoping just to hit the target... No way.

I consider myself to be "battle-hardened" having survived numerous confrontations with multiple targets all (firing) back with automatics, but I would not attempt a head shot... Not on a public street with innocents running to and fro, against a moving armored-target with a battle-rifle... No sir, its center mass or nothing. Its a much bigger "target", and less chance of striking another citizen fleeing for their life (not to mention having to expose myself for a longer period of time to line up the shot).

As I said earlier, this was a tragedy, compounded by the (murder) of a Good Samaritan. I am thankful he was there and he was willing to lay down his life in the attempt to stop this (murderer). If not for MEN like him this would be a cold, cruel world indeed.

"Greater love hath no man, than when he layeth down his life for another."

p99guy
07-30-2006, 05:29 PM
Yes from what we understand of the milsurp armor vests the guy had....NOT an INTERCEPTOR or RANGER vest....more like a PASGT with a tank crewman cvt IIA under it
.45 acp never had a chance of getting though even the first one....SS190 would have
zapped him though his approx 35 layers of kevlar.

EARS
07-30-2006, 05:43 PM
At least we won't be wasting tax payers money for a trial. It too bad so many were hurt and killed, before he was.

jmz5
07-30-2006, 07:17 PM
:( i wounder if he thought he was going to pull a north hollywood shootout

iowaaggie
07-31-2006, 03:19 AM
What was the final total? Number he killed and number he wounded??

p99guy
07-31-2006, 08:56 AM
"The dead, both of Tyler, have been identified as Maribel Estrada, 41, and Mark Allen Wilson, 52, a personal trainer and gun enthusiast. The wounded include David Arroyo Jr., 23, the suspect's son, five law enforcement officers and two bystanders. "

http://www.tylerpaper.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=14028947&BRD=1994&PAG=461&dept_id=226369&rfi=6

iowaaggie
07-31-2006, 10:40 PM
I am SO surprised that he only killed two - it sure looked like several cops were killed. Luckily, he only killed two.

jmz5
07-31-2006, 10:50 PM
i wouldnt call it luck, lucky would have been if he hadn't killed anyone,but it is a good thing he didnt kill more

p99guy
07-31-2006, 11:18 PM
I am SO surprised that he only killed two - it sure looked like several cops were killed. Luckily, he only killed two.


well look at other infamous shootings using either semi auto only(stockton california school yard, and full auto AK's...North Hollywood. for the number of rounds fired , and persons hit....the fatality rate was unbelieveably low across the board.....while a trajedy, one can thank 7.62x39FMJ for the lack of on scene DOA's

jmz5
07-31-2006, 11:56 PM
yeah, thats true, just good thing he didn't use ballistic tips

iowaaggie
08-01-2006, 01:40 AM
I did not mean that two were acceptable, just fortunate that only two were killed. When you see cops falling over like bowling pins, I assumed several more killed.

"well look at other infamous shootings using either semi auto only(stockton california school yard, and full auto AK's...North Hollywood. for the number of rounds fired , and persons hit....the fatality rate was unbelieveably low across the board....."

That is true. I kind of remember a statistic on the number of rounds/total weight of rounds fired per KIA in different wars, (from the Revolution to the Viet Nam). It was something like a thousand plus rounds in Viet Nam. I wish remember the exact totals.

When I teach, we use the 80 percent survival rate total. Basically, if you are shot (and we can get you to a trauma system within an hour) you have 80-percent chance of survival. Other than CNS shots most ppl can survive.

Interesting trivia question? Modern EMS started in the late 1960's with the writing of the White Paper that found that a soldier shot in Viet Nam had a better chance of surviving than a civilian in a car accident in the US.

Seeing the video makes you forget the stats, though.

p99guy
08-01-2006, 09:27 AM
Seeing the video does prove one point(allready known to us) , that was also shown on the North Hollywood coverage...that normal Law Enforcement Officers will continue to engage an assault rifle armed suspect even if armed with "just pistols" No matter what......
It makes one proud to work with such men.

jmz5
08-01-2006, 11:07 AM
that we can be thankful for

iowaaggie
08-01-2006, 09:44 PM
In this day and age, it is surprising that the majority of departments do not issue high-powered rifles, (of any style) to the regular patrol officers.

jmz5
08-02-2006, 10:45 AM
yeah

UltraFudd
08-02-2006, 11:22 AM
In this day and age, it is surprising that the majority of departments do not issue high-powered rifles, (of any style) to the regular patrol officers.

The small department where I'm a reserve officer ( 7 full-time sworn, 14 reserve unsworn) just acquired two rifles from the Army as surplus for the two squads. We got one M-16A1 and one M-14 (semi) which are stored in the trunk to supplement the shotgun above the cage. It's hard to believe that more departments don't take advantage of the surplus long guns available.

I've been discussing the 5.7 with our Chief, who's not opposed to new concepts, but the cost of shifting the entire department over to both the pistol and carbine would be a pretty big bite in the budget. We're in the process of going from 9mm to 40's over the next three years, and since we're so small, he wants us to go to Glocks, which would be common with both the county and our sister department in the neighboring community.

p99guy
08-02-2006, 11:41 AM
Likely about the only way you will get a PS90 to use on duty is for him to authorize them as a private purchase firearm that can be carried on duty.

I dont know the rules he has to work under and from who....But here in Texas there are more departments that allow carry of private firearms than dont. Espicially in the small money strapped towns/counties...in twenty years I have been issued two firearms, The rest I owned. But were approved and qualified with like any other.
I prefer to carry my own rather than Dept property.....certainly when it comes to communal use long arms...nothing like finding out the officer before you was thumping cigarette ashes down the shotgun barrel in the upright rack.
With your own, YOU know how its been treated and maintained....which is no less critical than if you were talking parachutes (both items will get you killed if they fail)

btown02
08-02-2006, 12:34 PM
That's the way it is in a lot of Departments here. You can carry your own weapons, sidearm and rifle but if it's not the "Departments choice of weapon" you have to provide your own ammo for duty and range quals.

panzermk2
08-02-2006, 01:47 PM
this is a prime example of the lack of offensive power of a hangun. other shooters still look at me like I am nuts for using 10mm as a defensive/nightstand round. The look gets even worse when they find out it Double Tap 200gr XTP at 1250fps out of Mikes 4.3 test barrel. out of my S&W 1086 add 100 or so to it and I still feel under gunned.

iowaaggie
08-03-2006, 12:58 AM
Please bare with me, but we have entered an area which is very near and dear to my heart.
From my experience teaching around my state, speaking with other instructors and officers around the US, I have noticed several things:

First, the great majority of departments across the U.S. do not allow the officer to pick firearms. Almost all departments of large size provide the duty weapons, (and some like the NYPD even limit the guns officers can carry off-duty) and even most small departments have department issued only weapons. The leadership usually gives three (bogus) reasons; liability, the ability of exchange magazines between officers during a shoot-out, and that they want to control what their officers carry.

The chief or sheriff, who has not been on actual patrol for two or three decades, hears from a slick salesman that has the "cheapest and greatest weapon ever made". It becomes the department firearm with little or no imput from firearms instructors, let alone, the troops in the field.

We end up with a new officer with very little or no firearms experience, (a lot of officers have never even held a gun prior to the academy) they are given a land-cannon that they have trouble controlling, so shooting becomes a yearly painful ritual that has to be tolerated, (like a prostate check) not enjoyed. They fail at the range because of their fears, so they are upset, and even more fun to teach at recerts.

But the leadership fails to realize that the same gun that a 6'5 250-pound officer can easily handle is not the same gun the 5'0 100-pound officer can control. Leadership started in LE when most officers were young, Alpha-male studs, just out of the military, not realizing that we have a lot smaller-statured officers with no military/shooting experience.

Then because of political-correctness, our departments are scared to purchase semi-automatic rifles because of the preceived negitive reaction from the public, (esp on the left-coast) or require them to be left in the trunk, (which is almost as bad).

We issue shotguns, which unless an officer is accustomed to them, gets left in the car, (even by me!). Want to have fun at the range? Take an officer, set up the steel targets, (you need a few of the ones that will not fall over with handgun hits). Park the patrol car up range approx. 20-feet away. Tell him to use his tools to knock the targets down. In my experience at least 90-percent of the officers will bleed their guns dry trying to knock down those targets and NOT even consider the shotgun.

Point: Departments must allow officers to carry the firearms they feel comfortable with, (within set calibers). Departments must issue or allow officers to carry semi-automatic rifles in the front of the car easily accessible to the officer, (most officers can easily qualify on the M-16). Departments must provide range time and the bullets for regular practice.

I am still banging my head talking to the chiefs and sheriffs, but oh well! :soap:

ivanimal
08-03-2006, 03:33 AM
I see more and more California CHP officers with AR-15's in their patrol cars. It makes me happy that our boys have acces to a high power rifle, as well as a shotgun in the trunk if needed. It is a thankless job with many crazies in their path. :sheriff

btown02
08-03-2006, 07:31 AM
Iowa, you missed the boat on a couple of things. Most Departments are small to medium size in the U.S. and most will let the Officer use his own weapons if he can go to the range and show he knows how to use them. In my neck of the woods we all have shotguns and rifles in the cars. Even large Departments are not carved in stone on this as I worked for San Diego County and a lot of us along the border carried .44 mags because of the area we worked in. I even worked for a S.O. that had regs that said nothing but 9mm, yet I carried a Sig .45.

748
08-03-2006, 12:32 PM
And who says Good law abiding people don't need a hand gun that can shoot through kevlar?
Also you got to love the sound of that short barrel AR-15.
Those cops looked pissed, and they kicked ass.
To bad the cops didn't have fiveseven's or .44Mags. Glad I have both.

iowaaggie
08-03-2006, 10:23 PM
Iowa, you missed the boat on a couple of things. Most Departments are small to medium size in the U.S. and most will let the Officer use his own weapons if he can go to the range and show he knows how to use them.

You are correct, most agencies are small to medium sized, (under 10-officers) but I would disagree that most allow officers to carry what they want. It would be interesting to actually do a survey on this, but for example in Iowa there are around 400 LE agencies. Having trained around the state, I can think of under 10 that allow officers to carry what they want. My friends in different states are reporting the same thing.

It seems the south is more open to carrying what you want while the east and midwest seem to be highly-structured. The smaller the agency the more likely you can carry what you want.

By the way, you were quite lucky that you did not get in trouble carrying that unauthorized caliber handgun. The first thing cities, (at least the ones I know) do is shift the blame to the officer, (you were in violation of policy). In a lawsuit, the plantiff argues that point, (officer not in policy) even though it has no bearing on the case, (esp 1983 Fed cases). That is why we are not teaching the use of force prymid anymore.

It would have been best if the agencies just had a plain policy of open carry.

panzermk2
08-03-2006, 10:44 PM
I found that my old burb I lived in {Arlington Heights, IL) can pretty much carry what they want. I came across one of their more seasoned guys waiting inline for coffee. I complimented on His choice of a HK P7 after the shocked look left his face, we had a nice chat about what a nice choice it was. Even more so if it was grabbed from Him by a BG. This and itís trigger pull was reason for choosing it

iowaaggie
08-03-2006, 11:03 PM
what a nice choice it was. Even more so if it was grabbed from Him by a BG. This and itís trigger pull was reason for choosing it

I am not fimilar with this gun why is it a good gun if it is grabbed by a BG

panzermk2
08-04-2006, 12:22 AM
It's a striker fired auto that must have the front of the grip squeezed to put tension on the stiker

panzermk2
08-04-2006, 12:26 AM
Most BG's don't know that it must be squeezed all the way to fire. This is also what started HK on the road of thier funky mag release system. Normal ones don't work well if you want to keep the P7 cocked/charged. Also a benift is a vaery nice trigger pull

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e169/panzermk2/p7pspblue.jpg

panzermk2
08-04-2006, 12:27 AM
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e169/panzermk2/p7m8cutaway.jpg

iowaaggie
08-04-2006, 06:18 PM
Ahhhh!!!! Not only the BG's but most cops don't know that! One concern I have with carrying my Five-seveN with AP is of a gun grab. Unlike my .45 (and all guns) which are a risk, I shutter to think what the FN would do to all responding units.