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View Full Version : Is 5.7 x 28mm larger than .22 cal?


xllkoyokollx
12-06-2005, 12:14 PM
Just a quick ? guys. I know this may seem like a stupid question to some smarter than me I have heard mixed responces to this question and would like to pass this along to you guys I know this may have already been addressed please excuse my ignorance but i have done searches and couldn't find anything if this has been addressed and you know were i can find the info please just link me to it In some of my reading I have discovered this:

The Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 creates a new definition of "armor piercing ammunition" aimed at eliminating new types of bullets.Handgun ammunition made of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium, copper or depleted uranium or handgun ammunition larger than .22 caliber where the jacket weighs more than 25% of the bullet is banned.

So I am wondering is the SS190 ball round actually illegal or is it just not for sale to the general public. From reading this and having heard that 5.7 x 28mm is not larger than .22 cal i would gather that it is infact NOT illegal just not sold to the public.

If this is the case then I also wonder if this law is still in effect.

Also Here Is What Texas Law Says, Being As I Live In Texas I Think It Probably Applies.

"Armor-piercing ammunition" means handgun
ammunition that is designed primarily for the purpose of
penetrating metal or body armor and to be used principally in
pistols and revolvers


The Five-seveN was designed to be an auxilary weapon for the P90.

p99guy
12-06-2005, 01:09 PM
All of that could have gone on ONE post and I fixed it for you(dont be doing that)..the 5.7 is a .224 bullet so yes it is a .22.

And if you are a Texas resident, it is very simple...SS190 is a no-no

And no the five seven wasnt designed to be an auxilary weapon for a P90...they just shoot the same cartridge.....its like saying a Colt M1911 .45 is just a companion weapon to a Colt M1928 Thompson submachine gun, again the only thing in common is what they shoot.
in both cases they were designed by different people than the long arm, and for a different, and stand alone role.

xllkoyokollx
12-06-2005, 01:42 PM
So What You Are Saying Is That It Is Infact Illegal For Any Civilian In The Us To Posses Ss190. How About Ss192 It Will Still Punch A Hole In Level Ii Body Armor So Would This Too Be Infract Illegal?

DmL5
12-06-2005, 01:47 PM
The Five-seveN was originally designed to do the same things the P90 does, but in a pistol sized package. You don't necessarily have to use one if you use the other, in fact almost this entire board is composed of people that use the Five-seveN for various purposes without even touching the P90.



-DmL

p99guy
12-06-2005, 01:48 PM
Why dont you take a chill pill.....I said that as a TEXAS resident you cant have it...how much plainer can I say that? Its state law. The SS192 by its CONSTRUCTION doesnt meet ATF criteria
for AP...though it will indeed still go through a good amount of Kevlar.

xllkoyokollx
12-06-2005, 02:07 PM
hey simma down. im not trying to xxx you off just have a discusion. in texas the law for armor piercing bullets is:

"Armor-piercing ammunition" means handgun
ammunition that is designed primarily for the purpose of
penetrating metal or body armor and to be used principally in
pistols and revolvers.

Is the SS190 round designed primarily for the purpose of
penetrating metal or body armor *and* to be used *principally* in
*pistols* and revolvers.

or

Is the SS190 round designed for the P90.

i believe the second to be true.

I also believe that the Five-seveN was designed to shoot the 5.7 x 28mm. Not that the ammo was designed for the Five-seveN.

If all this is true then technically the SS190 is not illegal in texas.

p99guy
12-06-2005, 02:16 PM
well the snag to that is so far the only thing availible to civys has been a pistol .and whether it was orginally designed for the P90 or not, will not Keep you from having to get a ruling in court after your arrest....so its at your own risk

Crunge
12-07-2005, 09:22 AM
Is the SS190 round designed primarily for the purpose of
penetrating metal or body armor *and* to be used *principally* in
*pistols* and revolvers.

or

Is the SS190 round designed for the P90.


You're asking too many questions as one. So:

Was the SS190 designed primarily for the purpose of penetrating body armor? Yes.

Was the SS190 dseigned to be used principally in pistols? No. It is just a round to be used by anything that shoots a 5.7x28. That includes the P90 and FiveseveN (and some new things in development, apparently.)


The ATF has ruled the SS190 is AP, but SS192 is not. True, SS192 might go through some forms of body armor, but so will a LOT of other rounds out there that people have been using for years. When the ATF says that SS192 is not AP, I assume that means it will not penetrate the level of vests currently worn by law enforcement. (Any LEOs please verify.)

xllkoyokollx
12-07-2005, 10:02 AM
The ATF has ruled the SS190 is AP

Do you have a source for this info. if so could you please provide a link or point me in that general direction. I would definatly love to read how they worded that.

kamo
12-07-2005, 10:25 AM
basically the only ammo we can get as civilians is the SS192 / SS195LF, and the SS196... SS197 should be out soon (i hope) which will take the place of the SS196.

SS192 and SS195 is almost same except the SS195 is lead free.

Esteves
12-07-2005, 10:42 AM
IANAL (I am not a lawyer)

As I interpret http://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearmstech/fabriquen.htm the ATF's FTB classified SS196 ammunition as not armor piercing but doesn't officially rule on any of the other ammunition types.

State laws vary from the federal laws and regulations, so even if SS190 doesn't meet the federal requirements for classification as AP, there may be local restrictions.

kamo
12-07-2005, 10:58 AM
^ i would just save the hassel and only stick to 192, 195, 196 and 197 when it comes out. better safe than sorry.

xllkoyokollx
12-07-2005, 11:41 AM
Yes i truly understand that and dont have a problem with that. should i purchase a Five-seveN or a PS90 (when it is released) i will have no trouble shooting this ammunition. I know this is a pretty bothersome question for some of you and you may see me as some new guy to the forum just trying to cause trouble. i assure you i am not i have been doing research on this topic and my research has led me here. i have not found any documentation stating that the round is infact illegal. i have heard plenty of people say Quote:
Originally Posted by Crunge
The ATF has ruled the SS190 is AP.

But cannot find were the atf has said this first person. i know that it will punch through armor. but so will alot of bullets like you all have said. my problem is that this round does not meet the atfs def. of ap ammo and therefor i dont actually believe it is illegal. just because some people think it is or should be doesnt bend the law. words do mean things and the current ATF and State of Texas def. of ap ammo is not met by the 5.7 x 28mm.
i dont have a proble admitting i am wrong. i just dont like know i cant buy something because someone thinks i cant and not because its illegal.

kamo
12-07-2005, 11:47 AM
FN will not sell you the ammo unless LE or Mil. I would just stick to getting what you can get from cheaper than dirt etc. tell derek to call me this evening and i will go over all the stuff

xllkoyokollx
12-07-2005, 11:57 AM
ok ill tell him to call.

xllkoyokollx
12-07-2005, 11:59 AM
FN will not sell you the ammo unless LE or Mil. I would just stick to getting what you can get from cheaper than dirt etc. tell derek to call me this evening and i will go over all the stuff
thats like General Motors saying all we we sell is chevy cavaliers to the public. would you stand for that? or would you go by from another vender.i.e. ford dodge, honda.

btown02
12-07-2005, 12:03 PM
If it meets the ATF specs or not is probably not going to be the issue with most States. FN made it with one purpose, to be AP. They call it AP and sell it as AP. Some States, such as mine, it is legal to have but if you load it into a pistol then it's felony time unless you are exempt. And just like has been said, since FN only drop ships to the Military or a Law Enforcement Department it is not like you can buy it usually. FN will not even sell the SS190 to a Law Enforcement Officer, only to his Department.

DmL5
12-07-2005, 12:03 PM
Bucky Mills of FNH USA states in American Rifleman TV's 5.7x28 segment (download in THIS THREAD (http://fivesevenforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=367)) that the SS190 is "BATF classified as armor piercing".



-DmL

kamo
12-07-2005, 12:04 PM
Shooting AP rounds shouldnt matter unless you are LE or Mil in the first place. Shot placement is the most important. With that being said, even if you had SS196 and had to use it for reasons other than target shooting... it would still do some damage.

xllkoyokollx
12-07-2005, 12:17 PM
IANAL (I am not a lawyer)

As I interpret http://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearmstech/fabriquen.htm the
thank you for this link it is very informative down towards the bottom it does infact say SS190 - Armor piercing (AP). thanks again.

one more question.

Is it correct that Texas or anystate for that matter can only add to that. or can they say that it is ok?

xllkoyokollx
12-07-2005, 12:26 PM
Shooting AP rounds shouldnt matter unless you are LE or Mil in the first place.
this is not exactly true.

here in texas it is legal for any previosly law abiding person to posses and wear for that matter body armor. and with rapper like .50 cent shouting things like "i dont ever go anywere with out my vest. it is the first thing i put on in the morning." could persuade some people to do the same. who is to know if they are going to commit a crime latter. for chl and ccw holder this has a great impact. were do they teach you to shoot in your class you have to take?center mass.Were are bullet proof vests worn? center mass. i know all about shot placement i have been shooting my whole life. and probably for a knockdown hit or one shot dropper the easiest shot would be the hip as it is almost impossible to get a central nervous system hit.

xllkoyokollx
12-07-2005, 12:51 PM
moderators-
i dont want this thread to be tossed. would it be possible to move it to the politics board so that it may continue. i know it has gotten a bit off the original topic and is now not exactly just an ammo topic. should you come to this point please take this into consideration before just removing it.



Thank you. to whoever moved it.

p99guy
12-07-2005, 01:11 PM
while that is possible to do..and no, im not going to shut the thread right now...I still faill to see where this is going. None of us here made any of the rules, nor do we determine the restrictive selling of that ammo....the likelyhood of anything changing to ease up the situation is about nil. It does no good to talk about it endlessly. There is nothing to debate, disagee about....we all wish we could walk into wally world and it be a shelf item, no argument there. But you are fixated on this one round of ammunition when you need not be, as the five seven is a good weapon with the availible ammo. We enjoy the heck out of ours and carry them for protection as well...I dont feel bad with SS192/195 in the magazine..I have tested it against LII vests and folded over LII...some of those photos are floating around this site and its impressive.
If you want a five seven ...get one and enjoy it. There is no reason we should have to talk you into it.(only you know if it fills a need for YOU)

xllkoyokollx
12-07-2005, 01:39 PM
well put...
I'll end with this.
Where would we be if the founders of this Nation had just went with the flow, and not stood up for what they believe in.

I enjoyed getting the info i have gotten i thank you for this site and i am looking forward to being able to but the 5.7 x 28mm i own next to my name soon. thanks guys for all your help on this thread. im sure ill see you on another. i am pro 5.7 x 28mm, and will stay that way. i am also pro protecting our LEOs and military. I just wish that the focus on armor piercing ammo wasnt shooting LEOs their are othe useful functions that could save some law abiding citizens lifes one day.

---xllKoYoKollx

p99guy
12-07-2005, 02:15 PM
agreed , and if there is anything we can help you with, we all will. welcome to the board.

Crunge
12-08-2005, 12:04 AM
thank you for this link it is very informative down towards the bottom it does infact say SS190 - Armor piercing (AP). thanks again.

one more question.

Is it correct that Texas or anystate for that matter can only add to that. or can they say that it is ok?


Sorry for the delay in posting but yes, the link mentioned (http://fivesevenforum.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=9344) does say that SS190 is AP, while SS192/SS195/SS196 are not AP.

Esteves
12-08-2005, 10:33 AM
My last $0.02 (really, I promise): Some (much) of the information on the ATF/FTB web page appears to be regurgitated information from FN (note the FN part numbers) and the web page only uses the phrase "FTB classifies" when speaking of the SS196.

Blackwater OPS
12-13-2005, 03:23 AM
I like how the ATF says SS192 won't penetrate IIIa and SS196 won't penetrate II, but they avoid mentioning II and SS192.